Re: Witango-Talk: Load Balanceing
Each Witango service will need to see the location of the files in the same way. There are two and a half ways to do this. A) Copied Code (the half method). On each Witango server, copy the code to the same location (eg, c: \inetpub\wwwroot\). Configure IIS to share one of these as the website. You will need to manually maintain consistency between the copies (think customer file uploads, etc). Pros: Good Witango load sharing. Good for read only sites Quick and dirty. Cons: Manual work involved to ensure code is consistent between all Witango instances. No Witango service redundancy (they 'see' different copies of the files). B) Mapped Drive. Share wwwroot, and map a drive (eg, 'K:\') against it on _all_ Witango servers. Configure IIS to share drive K as the website. Pros: Good redundancy across application elements. Good load sharing. Easy to update code. Code is consistent between all Witango instances. Simple to configure Cons: Only works for a single site (you need a new drive letter for each site) If the mapped drive fails for any reason, manual intervention is required to restore the connection. C) Share Point Have your code in a shared directory, eg., \\Host\wwwroot\code.taf Configure IIS in the 'Home Directory' tab so that 'the content for this resource should come from [X] A share located on another computer', and point it at \\Host\wwwroot\ Ensure that the privileges required to access \\Host\wwwroot are available to the account that Witango is running under. With the above configuration, you can have single or multiple IIS front ends, with single or multiple Witango services. The share point could be served from any one of them, or an unrelated server (such as a NAS box). Pros: Good redundancy across application elements. Good load sharing. Easy to update code. Code is consistent between all Witango instances. Single hardware installation can support multiple sites Cons: Pain to get going. More to go wrong. More to look after. Regards, Jason. On 04/10/2007, at 3:32 PM, Fogelson, Steve wrote: Andre and others, I have done some testing with the following setup Server A will run one Witango service and the databases will reside here. Server B will run IIS, Witango Client and one Witango service I assumed you had to have copies of all the taf, tml, tcf, images and html files on both servers. Is this true or do you only have to have the files on the IIS and Witango Client server (B)? WITH IMAGINATION Planning, Implementation and Management of Web Applications Level 1, 44 Miller Street North Sydney NSW Australia 2060 phone + 612 9929 9229 fax + 612 9460 4770 web - www.wi.com.au email - [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by ESVA, and is believed to be clean. TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Go to http://www.witango.com/developer/maillist.taf
RE: Witango-Talk: Witango Customer Support
My thanks to Robert, William and Roland who responded. All saying much the same thing. I've been a user of Witango since the Everyware days and it's heavily in use here at DRS Optronics, a large division of DRS. (www.DRS.com outbind://111/www.DRS.com ) Control of Witango, load balancing, responsiveness, etc., is being passed to our Dallas division. No longer will I have the hands on access I once did. I see this as a good thing since I can concentrate more on what I'm good at and the guys who know more about networking and database tweaking can concentrate on what they know best. The problem is Phil has already pissed off my management. I'm copying an e-mail our IT Director in Dallas sent the other day. He has still received no response. I am absolutely amazed. We all wonder why a tool as good as Witango doesn't take off. I think we see the answer here. DRS is a $1.5B company. The largest division of DRS is a heavy user of Witango. Imagine if this company was convinced that Witango was a valid tool? With the exchange of e-mail below, and the comments I have received from you folks which I am going to pass on to management, I don't see that happening here. It's unfortunate that this opportunity is being squandered by the folks at Witango. From: Magnotti, Ernie [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 10:56 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Veltri, James; Wolf, Gene Subject: FW: Witango Help Importance: High Dear Witango, At the bottom of this thread is a request for support from one of my datacenter staff. It has been over a week and we have not had any response. Witango is a critical part of our infrastructure. We've also spent a lot of money on licensing for Witango. Further, I have made it a priority for James Veltri, who initiated this request for support, to confer with Witango support regarding our configuration. The current performance is unacceptable due to heavy CPU load during peak times of the business day. Please follow up on James inquiry below, and let us know of a better way to interact with you on future support issues. Ernie Magnotti IT Manager DRS Sensors Targeting Systems, Inc. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Desk: 972-560-5790 From: Veltri, James [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 9:33 AM To: Magnotti, Ernie Subject: FW: Witango Help FYI From: Veltri, James Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 10:11 AM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: Witango Help Hello, My name is James Veltri and I'm with DRS Optronics, Inc. we currently use your product Witango to develop our Intranet applications. I'm not a developer myself, but I'm one of the Data Center/Infrastructure people and I've been assigned to troubleshoot a performance issue that we've been experiencing. I'll give you a quick breakdown on how our Witango servers are configured. Basically we have one main server which hosts IIS, Witango which talks to a Backend server which hosts the SQL Databases for Witango. Basically what we've been experiencing is that during our heavy load periods (which we could potentially have 1000 users trying at one time) the processors on our main server peg out and eventually end up locking up the system which requires a reboot. Now I was given a document by Gene Wolf our BSG (Business Systems Group) guy Witango 5 Professional Server Configuration Guide which spells out how to separate the Witango services onto other Servers to spread out the load. However none of the documentation that I could find shows us a migration path from our current configuration to the load-balanced configuration.. Any documentation you could send me on the above would be greatly appreciated. Also if possible could you provide me with an Best Practice guides you may have on configuration of the servers for the Witango service. Thanks, James Veltri From: Robert Garcia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 5:14 PM To: witango-talk@witango.com Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Witango Customer Support You have to piss them off on this list, and then they respond. Of give them a credit card number. Those are the only ways that are most likely to work. Their support is horrible. -- Robert Garcia President - BigHead Technology VP Application Development - eventpix.com 13653 West Park Dr Magalia, Ca 95954 ph: 530.645.4040 x222 fax: 530.645.4040 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bighead.net/ - http://eventpix.com/ On Oct 3, 2007, at 1:19 PM, Wolf, Gene wrote: Hey all, quick question. We are reorganizing here at DRS and moving our servers to our data center in Dallas (we're in Florida) and centralizing our networking support there as well. This is all a good thing. Needless to say Witango is an unknown to everyone in Dallas and they want to understand as much as they can about Witango and supporting it. They have written several e-mails to [EMAIL
RE: Witango-Talk: Witango Customer Support
Hi Gene, I'm not sure what you hope to gain out of publicly exposing Phil or your company like this, but it won't be positive or anything that could possibly help achieve a working solution to your problem. Despite whatever faults Phil or the Witango product and/or company may have, nothing warrants this type of unprofessional response. If this is the position and opinion you've arrived at about Phil and whomever else may work at Witango, than either whine and snivel privately - or on the List like others have chosen. Or... make that dreaded business decision to move on. But don't make a public spectacle of yourself and your company in the process. Migrating away from Witango may be a painful decision to make (career altering in fact [scary, huh?]), but don't try and blame your less-than-perfect technology choices on somebody else. Who ever said software was perfect? And how could you be absolutely amazed when for years we've all known in stark terms that the future of Witango (if any) would be a long hard-fought road. And that continuing with Witango, after Pervasive, would be a gamble involving some personal sacrifices of our own. Suck it up Gene, and admit to your boss that maybe a different decision should have been made years ago. I'm not here to defend Phil. I've moved on from Witango a long time ago. I'm here to stay in touch with friends, and to occasionally give opinion and advice - based on my own decision making experience. Best of luck. Scott Cadillac ~ 902-624-1266 ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED] TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Go to http://www.witango.com/developer/maillist.taf
Re: Witango-Talk: Witango Customer Support
Hi Gene, I just checked the Witango.com site and looked at their support page. No where on it is there any reference to an email address called [EMAIL PROTECTED] What if they never got those emails? Wouldn't it be a sad misunderstanding if there is all this anger about a lack of support when they didn't get the messages? Why don't you use [EMAIL PROTECTED] to set up a support contract like the page says to do? Alternatively, I know that Robert Shubert is great at setting up load balancing configurations. Let's not jump to conclusions before absolutely necessary... Stefan At 07:14 AM 10/4/2007, you wrote: My thanks to Robert, William and Roland who responded. All saying much the same thing. I've been a user of Witango since the Everyware days and it's heavily in use here at DRS Optronics, a large division of DRS. (outbind://111/www.DRS.comwww.DRS.com) Control of Witango, load balancing, responsiveness, etc., is being passed to our Dallas division. No longer will I have the hands on access I once did. I see this as a good thing since I can concentrate more on what I'm good at and the guys who know more about networking and database tweaking can concentrate on what they know best. The problem is Phil has already pissed off my management. I'm copying an e-mail our IT Director in Dallas sent the other day. He has still received no response. I am absolutely amazed. We all wonder why a tool as good as Witango doesn't take off. I think we see the answer here. DRS is a $1.5B company. The largest division of DRS is a heavy user of Witango. Imagine if this company was convinced that Witango was a valid tool? With the exchange of e-mail below, and the comments I have received from you folks which I am going to pass on to management, I don't see that happening here. It's unfortunate that this opportunity is being squandered by the folks at Witango. -- From: Magnotti, Ernie [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 10:56 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Veltri, James; Wolf, Gene Subject: FW: Witango Help Importance: High Dear Witango,?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office / At the bottom of this thread is a request for support from one of my datacenter staff. It has been over a week and we have not had any response. Witango is a critical part of our infrastructure. We've also spent a lot of money on licensing for Witango. Further, I have made it a priority for James Veltri, who initiated this request for support, to confer with Witango support regarding our configuration. The current performance is unacceptable due to heavy CPU load during peak times of the business day. Please follow up on James inquiry below, and let us know of a better way to interact with you on future support issues. Ernie Magnotti IT Manager DRS Sensors Targeting Systems, Inc. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Desk: 972-560-5790 From: Veltri, James [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 9:33 AM To: Magnotti, Ernie Subject: FW: Witango Help FYI From: Veltri, James Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 10:11 AM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: Witango Help Hello, My name is James Veltri and I'm with DRS Optronics, Inc. we currently use your product Witango to develop our Intranet applications. I'm not a developer myself, but I'm one of the Data Center/Infrastructure people and I've been assigned to troubleshoot a performance issue that we've been experiencing. I'll give you a quick breakdown on how our Witango servers are configured. Basically we have one main server which hosts IIS, Witango which talks to a Backend server which hosts the SQL Databases for Witango. Basically what we've been experiencing is that during our heavy load periods (which we could potentially have 1000 users trying at one time) the processors on our main server peg out and eventually end up locking up the system which requires a reboot. Now I was given a document by Gene Wolf our BSG (Business Systems Group) guy Witango 5 Professional Server Configuration Guide which spells out how to separate the Witango services onto other Servers to spread out the load. However none of the documentation that I could find shows us a migration path from our current configuration to the load-balanced configuration.. Any documentation you could send me on the above would be greatly appreciated. Also if possible could you provide me with an Best Practice guides you may have on configuration of the servers for the Witango service. Thanks, James Veltri -- From: Robert Garcia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 5:14 PM To: witango-talk@witango.com Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Witango Customer Support You have to piss them off on this list, and then they respond. Of give them a credit card number. Those are the only ways that are most likely to work. Their support is
RE: Witango-Talk: Witango Customer Support
Wow, unprofessional and a spectacle? I've reached a new high. Needless to say Scott I'm voicing concerns I've heard on this list many times before. Check the archives. It's a fact. I've used Witango for years and I've sold Witango clients to others on this list and believe I have conducted myself in a very professional manner in all of those transactions. Only others can judge that. I bring to light that my management is asking questions in my first e-mail yesterday and get 3 answers, two on this list and one in private that say, essentially, to get any response you have to piss off Phil. Not my words. Due to those posts I point out that With may very well be missing out on a huge opportunity, and point out that this potential missed opportunity may be the reason Witango is not more widely in use than it is, again statements made on this list many times before. When you have something constructive to post please do so. There's only one person here posting anything sniveling and unprofessional and it's not me. -Original Message- From: Scott Cadillac [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 8:29 AM To: witango-talk@witango.com Subject: RE: Witango-Talk: Witango Customer Support Hi Gene, I'm not sure what you hope to gain out of publicly exposing Phil or your company like this, but it won't be positive or anything that could possibly help achieve a working solution to your problem. Despite whatever faults Phil or the Witango product and/or company may have, nothing warrants this type of unprofessional response. If this is the position and opinion you've arrived at about Phil and whomever else may work at Witango, than either whine and snivel privately - or on the List like others have chosen. Or... make that dreaded business decision to move on. But don't make a public spectacle of yourself and your company in the process. Migrating away from Witango may be a painful decision to make (career altering in fact [scary, huh?]), but don't try and blame your less-than-perfect technology choices on somebody else. Who ever said software was perfect? And how could you be absolutely amazed when for years we've all known in stark terms that the future of Witango (if any) would be a long hard-fought road. And that continuing with Witango, after Pervasive, would be a gamble involving some personal sacrifices of our own. Suck it up Gene, and admit to your boss that maybe a different decision should have been made years ago. I'm not here to defend Phil. I've moved on from Witango a long time ago. I'm here to stay in touch with friends, and to occasionally give opinion and advice - based on my own decision making experience. Best of luck. Scott Cadillac ~ 902-624-1266 ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED] TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Go to http://www.witango.com/developer/maillist.taf TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Go to http://www.witango.com/developer/maillist.taf
RE: Witango-Talk: Witango Customer Support
I am asking my management where they got that e-mail address. That's why I posted my first question to the list and provided the e-mail address that they were using. Since I am now on the periphery of maintaining Witango I figured a quick question to this list was the best way to get an answer my management was asking because some of you probably have had to contact support in the past and had an address readily available. I hardly expected the vitriolic response I have received from some quarters. From: Stefan Gonick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 9:39 AM To: witango-talk@witango.com Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Witango Customer Support Hi Gene, I just checked the Witango.com site and looked at their support page. No where on it is there any reference to an email address called [EMAIL PROTECTED] . What if they never got those emails? Wouldn't it be a sad misunderstanding if there is all this anger about a lack of support when they didn't get the messages? Why don't you use [EMAIL PROTECTED] to set up a support contract like the page says to do? Alternatively, I know that Robert Shubert is great at setting up load balancing configurations. Let's not jump to conclusions before absolutely necessary... Stefan At 07:14 AM 10/4/2007, you wrote: My thanks to Robert, William and Roland who responded. All saying much the same thing. I've been a user of Witango since the Everyware days and it's heavily in use here at DRS Optronics, a large division of DRS. ( www.DRS.com outbind://111/www.DRS.com ) Control of Witango, load balancing, responsiveness, etc., is being passed to our Dallas division. No longer will I have the hands on access I once did. I see this as a good thing since I can concentrate more on what I'm good at and the guys who know more about networking and database tweaking can concentrate on what they know best. The problem is Phil has already pissed off my management. I'm copying an e-mail our IT Director in Dallas sent the other day. He has still received no response. I am absolutely amazed. We all wonder why a tool as good as Witango doesn't take off. I think we see the answer here. DRS is a $1.5B company. The largest division of DRS is a heavy user of Witango. Imagine if this company was convinced that Witango was a valid tool? With the exchange of e-mail below, and the comments I have received from you folks which I am going to pass on to management, I don't see that happening here. It's unfortunate that this opportunity is being squandered by the folks at Witango. From: Magnotti, Ernie [ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 10:56 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Veltri, James; Wolf, Gene Subject: FW: Witango Help Importance: High Dear Witango,?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office / At the bottom of this thread is a request for support from one of my datacenter staff. It has been over a week and we have not had any response. Witango is a critical part of our infrastructure. We've also spent a lot of money on licensing for Witango. Further, I have made it a priority for James Veltri, who initiated this request for support, to confer with Witango support regarding our configuration. The current performance is unacceptable due to heavy CPU load during peak times of the business day. Please follow up on James inquiry below, and let us know of a better way to interact with you on future support issues. Ernie Magnotti IT Manager DRS Sensors Targeting Systems, Inc. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Desk: 972-560-5790 From: Veltri, James [ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 9:33 AM To: Magnotti, Ernie Subject: FW: Witango Help FYI From: Veltri, James Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 10:11 AM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: Witango Help Hello, My name is James Veltri and I'm with DRS Optronics, Inc. we currently use your product Witango to develop our Intranet applications. I'm not a developer myself, but I'm one of the Data Center/Infrastructure people and I've been assigned to troubleshoot a performance issue that we've been experiencing. I'll give you a quick breakdown on how our Witango servers are configured. Basically we have one main server which hosts IIS, Witango which talks to a Backend server which hosts the SQL Databases for Witango.
Re: Witango-Talk: Load Balanceing
Hi, Jason This was one very detailed answer, I must admit. However there's two corrections that I feel is necessary. 1. Witango service doesn't need to have access to Application files, it needs to have a valid Data Source. Application Files must be visible to IIS with Witango Plugin. That plugin will in turn connect to Witango Services specifed in clients.ini either randomly or by following directions supplied as arguments of the URL. 2. You can't have a mapped drive functioning, while there's no user logged in to the server. This option would only be valid for a testlab, where developer is always logged and drive is always mapped. Sincerely, Andre Rekhtine IS Consultant Moveable Online Inc. Each Witango service will need to see the location of the files in the same way. There are two and a half ways to do this. A) Copied Code (the half method). On each Witango server, copy the code to the same location (eg, c: \inetpub\wwwroot\). Configure IIS to share one of these as the website. You will need to manually maintain consistency between the copies (think customer file uploads, etc). Pros: Good Witango load sharing. Good for read only sites Quick and dirty. Cons: Manual work involved to ensure code is consistent between all Witango instances. No Witango service redundancy (they 'see' different copies of the files). B) Mapped Drive. Share wwwroot, and map a drive (eg, 'K:\') against it on _all_ Witango servers. Configure IIS to share drive K as the website. Pros: Good redundancy across application elements. Good load sharing. Easy to update code. Code is consistent between all Witango instances. Simple to configure Cons: Only works for a single site (you need a new drive letter for each site) If the mapped drive fails for any reason, manual intervention is required to restore the connection. C) Share Point Have your code in a shared directory, eg., \\Host\wwwroot\code.taf Configure IIS in the 'Home Directory' tab so that 'the content for this resource should come from [X] A share located on another computer', and point it at \\Host\wwwroot\ Ensure that the privileges required to access \\Host\wwwroot are available to the account that Witango is running under. With the above configuration, you can have single or multiple IIS front ends, with single or multiple Witango services. The share point could be served from any one of them, or an unrelated server (such as a NAS box). Pros: Good redundancy across application elements. Good load sharing. Easy to update code. Code is consistent between all Witango instances. Single hardware installation can support multiple sites Cons: Pain to get going. More to go wrong. More to look after. Regards, Jason. On 04/10/2007, at 3:32 PM, Fogelson, Steve wrote: Andre and others, I have done some testing with the following setup Server A will run one Witango service and the databases will reside here. Server B will run IIS, Witango Client and one Witango service I assumed you had to have copies of all the taf, tml, tcf, images and html files on both servers. Is this true or do you only have to have the files on the IIS and Witango Client server (B)? WITH IMAGINATION Planning, Implementation and Management of Web Applications Level 1, 44 Miller Street North Sydney NSW Australia 2060 phone + 612 9929 9229 fax + 612 9460 4770 web - www.wi.com.au email - [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by ESVA, and is believed to be clean. TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Go to http://www.witango.com/developer/maillist.taf TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Go to http://www.witango.com/developer/maillist.taf
RE: Witango-Talk: Load Balanceing
Andre, Setup: Server A will run one Witango service and the databases will reside here. Server B will run IIS, Witango Client and one Witango service I was wondering about that. I have been doing some testing with the setup I described. I have a taf that is different on both servers. As the request comes into Server B, it may go to either server (as indicated in the log files on both servers), but it always displays the results as indicated by the taf located on server B. Is it possible that Server B pulls the Witango files from the IIS and Witango Client server (B in this example) and caches (if server B is setup to do so) them on server B? If so, files would only have to be located on Server B. As I recall from a post by Robert Schubert, Server B will also have it's own System, Application and Domain scoped variables, so any changes to the Application and Domain variables on server B that need to be used on server A will also have to be reset. Please comment on this and let me know if my test results are wrong. Thanks, Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 10:36 AM To: witango-talk@witango.com Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Load Balanceing Hi, Jason This was one very detailed answer, I must admit. However there's two corrections that I feel is necessary. 1. Witango service doesn't need to have access to Application files, it needs to have a valid Data Source. Application Files must be visible to IIS with Witango Plugin. That plugin will in turn connect to Witango Services specifed in clients.ini either randomly or by following directions supplied as arguments of the URL. 2. You can't have a mapped drive functioning, while there's no user logged in to the server. This option would only be valid for a testlab, where developer is always logged and drive is always mapped. Sincerely, Andre Rekhtine IS Consultant Moveable Online Inc. TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Go to http://www.witango.com/developer/maillist.taf
RE: Witango-Talk: Witango Customer Support
Gee Gene, are you telling me to shut-up? Now that's a waste of text. I'm only questioning your most recent post Gene. The fact they have a long standing reputation and are considered a very competent professional in your field doesn't excuse you from being called out when you do something rude. Being a professional is not a point system. If it was your management that gave you the go ahead to follow the ill-conceived advice of others from this List to do whatever it takes to piss Phil off enough to get his attention - then I profoundly apologize to you, your family, your ancestors and your descendants. You now have my sympathy, that you have to work for such people. As for the opportunity you are referring to. ...DRS is a $1.5B company. The largest division of DRS is a heavy user of Witango. Imagine if this company was convinced that Witango was a valid tool?... Are you suggesting that your company was on the brink of sinking some of the billions they have into Witango? What kind of false promise is that? And if it were true, where were their dollars 2 or 3 or 6 years ago? Bringing it up now at this point is an insult to everyone on this list, including Phil - in my opinion. And frankly Gene, I considered my posts very constructive :-) I hope things improve for you. Scott Cadillac ~ 902-624-1266 ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED] TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Go to http://www.witango.com/developer/maillist.taf
Re: Witango-Talk: Witango Customer Support
To be fair, so I'm not just criticizing Gene, Personally I think your advice here Robert is also very rude and unprofessional. If you were Phil, would you want to respond to such a hostile public forum? I'm not saying I'm without fault. I've done my own share of bashing in the past, and paid the price in good dose of returned criticism. If you can't do business with Phil under the conditions that so clearly exists - then move on. Otherwise make the most of it and help each other. Have a nice day, and I hope things improve for you as well. Scott Cadillac ~ 902-624-1266 ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Wed, October 3, 2007 6:13 pm, Robert Garcia [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: You have to piss them off on this list, and then they respond. Of give them a credit card number. Those are the only ways that are most likely to work. Their support is horrible. -- Robert Garcia President - BigHead Technology VP Application Development - eventpix.com 13653 West Park Dr Magalia, Ca 95954 ph: 530.645.4040 x222 fax: 530.645.4040 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bighead.net/ - http://eventpix.com/ On Oct 3, 2007, at 1:19 PM, Wolf, Gene wrote: Hey all, quick question. We are reorganizing here at DRS and moving our servers to our data center in Dallas (we're in Florida) and centralizing our networking support there as well. This is all a good thing. Needless to say Witango is an unknown to everyone in Dallas and they want to understand as much as they can about Witango and supporting it. They have written several e-mails to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and I've been told they have received no reply. I have always used this forum to get answers and do not know the best way to put our networking and support folks in touch with Witango support. How do you folks do it? Do you basically rely on this list, or is there some e-mail address other than the one listed above that should be used for support issues? Thanks! Gene Wolf Supervisor, Business Systems DRS Sensors Targeting Systems-Optronics 2330 Commerce Park Drive NE Palm Bay, Florida 32905 Phone: 321-309-0685 321-309-0202 (fax) Dictionary.com Word of the Day http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/ This e-mail, including any attached files, may contain confidential and privileged information for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, distribution, or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient (or authorized to receive information for the intended recipient), please contact the sender by reply e-mail and delete all copies of this message. This (document/presentation) may contain technical data as defined in the International Traffic In Arms Regulations (ITAR) 22 CFR 120.10. Export of this material is restricted by the Arms Export Control Act (22 U.S.C. 2751 et seq.) and may not be exported to foreign persons without prior written approval from the U.S. Department of State. __ __ TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Go to http://www.witango.com/developer/maillist.taf TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Go to http://www.witango.com/developer/maillist.taf TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Go to http://www.witango.com/developer/maillist.taf
RE: Witango-Talk: Witango Customer Support
Ok Ian here. I lurk for so long that most of you could wonder if I've left ... if you wonder anything at all. I for one learn a great deal from all the participants on this list ... and would think it a very bad thing if tempers rise sufficiently that any of you great minds up and left. Take a step back ... and a deep breath ... and resist the temptation to judge others' conduct, or explain what you really meant. Public criticism of anyone is light thinking .. destined to offend ... and is, in the final analysis, an invitation to others to draw conclusions -- usually incorrectly -- about the writer. Everyone has their days. Gene is asking for help getting through, and I don't believe he has any axe to grind. Once he finds a way to get through to the folks down under, and a decent response comes in, the pressure will subside. Until then, I can very much understand his unease ... and, though unstated, his concern on how all this reflects on business decisions that he has participated in. Gene, in the absence of answers from Australia, I suggest you connect your IT folks with one of the Roberts from this list, and get their professional advice (and experience) working for you. If we at NCOL had current expertise with the kind of Witango load balancing discussed here, I'd offer it myself ... but I believe you would be better served by one of the others. With sincere appreciation for everyone here. Ian TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Go to http://www.witango.com/developer/maillist.taf
Re: Witango-Talk: Witango Customer Support
First, [EMAIL PROTECTED] is the right address. I have mail in my inbox that they have sent to me, and I have sent back. Second, Scott, I hold you in high respect. Very sorry to offend you. However, in keeping my response short, that is how I see it. I have example after example of this being the case. It may be a bit crude, and I am sure I could always use a bit of softening around my edges. First of all, there is a long list of people that have emailed support, for valid reasons, and even sometimes within the frame witango should be supporting, and they ignore. I would say that ANY company that IGNORES support inquiries like this, has HORRIBLE support. At the very least, they should receive even a canned response that instructs them how to properly receive support. Next time, in deference to you, I will choose better words for my response, and I apologize if I offended you or anyone else. However, I would have substantively said the same thing. I don't do business with Phil, and I have no intention to, except maybe someday to get a decent studio for old projects that are not worth porting to PHP. I stay on this list because I still have clients that use witango that use my services, a couple of them porting to php from witango, others porting oracle to mysql. Things don't need to improve for me, they are quite well. Your statement to Gene about him making better decisions on technology kind of puts me back a bit. I understand his frustration and it really bothers me when I see any company including witango treat its customers that way. For the record, I didn't leave witango as my main development platform because I thought PHP was a better technology. I left because of the horrible support from Witango, and the attitude of Phil and company. It was only after these issues, I thoroughly investigated my options for leaving, and found Zend/PHP. I found it to be FAR superior, MUCH cheaper, and incredibly supported. Here are 2 examples to compare: 1. One of my clients is still using witango, but in the LONG process of complete conversion. They are currently doing 20 million dollars a month in the ecommerce system I wrote for them in witango. Witango is doing well, but showing its weaknesses, particularly in debugging and solving bugs in a extremely complex application. About 18 months, maybe 2 years even, ago, this company was planning on upgrading many of its oracle systems, and marrying them better to the witango system. At the time, there were a lot of people in the company complaining about why the hell a Witango was being used, and why not something like .NET or ColdFusion. But the principles of the company defended it, in their own words Witango is the only F*ing thing that works in this company thanks to BigHead, and we aren't fixing what ain't broke. They flew me down to L.A. for several meetings with this HUGE oracle firm, that if I named, you would know. The first few days was constant jabbing by the oracle firm about Witango, and it was very annoying. After they saw what we had done, and how fast we did it, and made changes, they started to shut up. And after a while, started to ask me more questions. After a while the head engineer asks me how he can get a copy. I tell him he can download a trial and give him URL. A couple days later, I ask him if he tried witango. He says yes I did, but I tossed it. I asked why. He said he downloaded it, and went to install, but the documentation was lacking in a few areas and so he emailed support. He didn't get a response, so he called. He was told he would receive no support, and the only thing afforded him was that he could join THIS list. He also said he was treated poorly, and so it wasn't a product he wanted to sample. He said it was a shame, because he was looking for something for rapid prototyping and something for small projects. I saw this happen several times and I knew I needed to have a company behind me, that I could feel good supporting. I don't think I made a bad tech decision, I think Phil and company screwed things up enough, that I couldn't stay. And my decision to use witango was long before they even came around. Now another example: 2. When I started really pursuing PHP, I didn't feel good about just PHP. I needed something that would cluster/load balance, and also cache data well. PHP can do this, but with open source hacks and such. And I wanted server support. Then I found Zend. From the movies and site, it seemed it had all, and much more, and only $1000 per cpu. And that is $1000 per CPU, not CPU core. So a 4 core CPU is still $1000, and the studio is only $300, and far superior to witango studio also. Just the idea of line by line debugging, like I enjoy in other languages, was an incredible thought. So I call Zend, they assign me a sales rep. I tell them what I am thinking of doing.
Re: Witango-Talk: Witango Customer Support
Thank you Robert for your courteous and thoughtful response. I deserved no better than to be ignored, so thank you. Admittedly my suck it up comment was a bit much, so I apologize to Gene specifically for that, given I understand now that I read some things out of context. But I still have some angst with other content. But I digress... After reading your well written detailed summaries of how you arrived at your own business decisions, with which I concur - and many others like it from other members over recent years (including my own). I do have to wonder why we have to continue to re-learn the same lesson over-and-over again. Witango has little or no official support. So why get upset when they don't respond? A newbie yes, I can understand. But how long have most of us been here? And if folks are going to continue to use the product, base your decision on that hard fact of little or no vendor support. Meaning... be prepared for when you have problems because you could be out in the cold. I think this community is great. You especially Robert have filled the gap between people's unfortunate situations and empowered knowledge. But I must say, it hurts when so many have to keep learning this lesson over and over again, year-after-year, whereas it should be second nature to us by now. I also still believe that Witango has many wonderful aspects to it's vision, but that wasn't enough for me quite some time ago. Sorry, but my self-absorbed insight feels that if this great bunch of people are to continue as a community, then there needs to a better foundation of reality to it - to make the most out of what we have to work with. I think maybe we don't see that our particular community has strengths to it that are independent of Witango. All the best to everyone, including Phil. Scott Cadillac ~ 902-624-1266 ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED] TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Go to http://www.witango.com/developer/maillist.taf
Re: Witango-Talk: Witango Customer Support
The thing is, and the reason I think it is more of an issue, is because it wasn't like this before, but it is now. And when you put so much into a product, you hate to leave it, for some reason such as this. I hope witango inc learns something, because I would love to see witango prosper in the future. And I hope a lot of witango customers learn, before they shell out any dough for upgrades and expect any type of support. This list is good, but I wouldn't count on it. -- Robert Garcia President - BigHead Technology VP Application Development - eventpix.com 13653 West Park Dr Magalia, Ca 95954 ph: 530.645.4040 x222 fax: 530.645.4040 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bighead.net/ - http://eventpix.com/ On Oct 4, 2007, at 11:30 AM, Scott Cadillac wrote: Thank you Robert for your courteous and thoughtful response. I deserved no better than to be ignored, so thank you. Admittedly my suck it up comment was a bit much, so I apologize to Gene specifically for that, given I understand now that I read some things out of context. But I still have some angst with other content. But I digress... After reading your well written detailed summaries of how you arrived at your own business decisions, with which I concur - and many others like it from other members over recent years (including my own). I do have to wonder why we have to continue to re-learn the same lesson over-and-over again. Witango has little or no official support. So why get upset when they don't respond? A newbie yes, I can understand. But how long have most of us been here? And if folks are going to continue to use the product, base your decision on that hard fact of little or no vendor support. Meaning... be prepared for when you have problems because you could be out in the cold. I think this community is great. You especially Robert have filled the gap between people's unfortunate situations and empowered knowledge. But I must say, it hurts when so many have to keep learning this lesson over and over again, year-after-year, whereas it should be second nature to us by now. I also still believe that Witango has many wonderful aspects to it's vision, but that wasn't enough for me quite some time ago. Sorry, but my self-absorbed insight feels that if this great bunch of people are to continue as a community, then there needs to a better foundation of reality to it - to make the most out of what we have to work with. I think maybe we don't see that our particular community has strengths to it that are independent of Witango. All the best to everyone, including Phil. Scott Cadillac ~ 902-624-1266 ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ __ TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Go to http://www.witango.com/developer/maillist.taf TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Go to http://www.witango.com/developer/maillist.taf
Re: Witango-Talk: Witango Customer Support
I am, as most know, a english major, sales and marketing guy, who got in on Tango as a Butler user and have used it ever since. Our use was in the company my brother and I own. I did some work for a school district for a time, but mostly kept my use of the product to our internal needs. Many of you work on and solve problems using Witango that I just don't run into because our needs are so basic and simple. I admire so many of you, as I read daily the posts. I learn so much. So I look at this whole problem of passive aggressive behavior from a marketing angle. With Enterprises at this point in time (Phil, et al if there is an et al) is a company that doesn't want to grow very much. Why do I think that? 1) Their server price is well thought out IF you want to discourage massive growth for one. 2) Their Dev Tool may be the best, but again, since it is only a Witango product, it isn't fueling growth and while they could make it a tool for use with other language and make a nice business selling a dev tool, that would mean more growth and they don't want that much growth. 3) I have always felt that there was a conflict between With Ent and it's personal use of the product and the installed base. The silence seems not to be because they can't talk, but that they are talking to others, owners, who have greater influence. That is just a feeling. Why would a company not want growth? Because with growth comes greater responsibility, more responsibility than Phil wants to have. Many say that the perfect company is one that has no employees. But if you grow, you need those. Some say, the perfect company has diminutive service exposure as well. They way to keep that exposure small is to price and service so that only the most desperate or the beginners who are not likely to require a lot, use the product. The lack of returned emails, probably also a product of priorities. With Ent. using the product for their own needs first, and the left over time goes to whatever the installed base may be screaming about the loudest and longest. The point is, I have felt for a long time, that their practices are not meant to be taken personally. And I don't think they are the result of an idiot at the helm. They are the result of a business decision that is rational, self- serving, and following a set of parameters that makes total sense for the goals and dreams they want to achieve. We might find it hard to understand the lack of evangelism for something that could be so good. But, putting ourselves in his shoes, what they are as a company is just right for them. They are at peace, and don't lose one nights sleep over our rantings on this list. The question for me is, can I use this tool to meet my needs. Right now, yes. It runs and runs and runs. Again, we don't have high volume and we don't do really complex stuff. the stuff I write works for me. And has since the beta version the Butler guys sent me. Day in and day out. So the shoe fits for me right now. Besides A man convinced his will is of the same opinion still as they say. The negative energy on the list isn't going to influence a business plan or philosophy that works for them. If you fit into their view of the world, then use the product and enjoy. If it doesn't, do like my friends Robert Garcia, and Scott Cadillac. Move on quietly, or in Robert's case, not so quietly. If it weren't for you guys, I couldn't have ever made a business case for using the software in a business situation. That is also part of Phil's calculations isn't it? What you have to sell, service wise Gene, isn't Witango. It is this list. I hope it is enough. It is for me. I am on several lists, and this is the most useful, enjoyable one of them all. I thank you all for that. You are all great guys and gals. Phil is going to do what he is going to do. Best of luck to him and his family. I hope his business plan works for him. With sincerity... my .02¢, Mark Weiss On Oct 4, 2007, at 9:08 AM, Scott Cadillac wrote: Gee Gene, are you telling me to shut-up? Now that's a waste of text. I'm only questioning your most recent post Gene. The fact they have a long standing reputation and are considered a very competent professional in your field doesn't excuse you from being called out when you do something rude. Being a professional is not a point system. If it was your management that gave you the go ahead to follow the ill-conceived advice of others from this List to do whatever it takes to piss Phil off enough to get his attention - then I profoundly apologize to you, your family, your ancestors and your descendants. You now have my sympathy, that you have to work for such people. As for the opportunity you are referring to. ...DRS is a $1.5B company. The largest division of DRS is a heavy user of Witango. Imagine if this company was convinced that Witango
Re: Witango-Talk: Witango Customer Support
Sometimes, I can't think OR type. A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. That =20 is what I wanted to type. Sigh... On Oct 4, 2007, at 6:51 PM, David Mark Weiss wrote: I am, as most know, a english major, sales and marketing guy, who got in on Tango as a Butler user and have used it ever since. Our use was in the company my brother and I own. I did some work for a school district for a time, but mostly kept my use of the product to our internal needs. Many of you work on and solve problems using Witango that I just don't run into because our needs are so basic and simple. I admire so many of you, as I read daily the posts. I learn so much. So I look at this whole problem of passive aggressive behavior from a marketing angle. With Enterprises at this point in time (Phil, et al if there is an et al) is a company that doesn't want to grow very much. Why do I think that? 1) Their server price is well thought out IF you want to discourage massive growth for one. 2) Their Dev Tool may be the best, but again, since it is only a Witango product, it isn't fueling growth and while they could make it a tool for use with other language and make a nice business selling a dev tool, that would mean more growth and they don't want that much growth. 3) I have always felt that there was a conflict between With Ent and it's personal use of the product and the installed base. The silence seems not to be because they can't talk, but that they are talking to others, owners, who have greater influence. That is just a feeling. Why would a company not want growth? Because with growth comes greater responsibility, more responsibility than Phil wants to have. Many say that the perfect company is one that has no employees. But if you grow, you need those. Some say, the perfect company has diminutive service exposure as well. They way to keep that exposure small is to price and service so that only the most desperate or the beginners who are not likely to require a lot, use the product. The lack of returned emails, probably also a product of priorities. With Ent. using the product for their own needs first, and the left over time goes to whatever the installed base may be screaming about the loudest and longest. The point is, I have felt for a long time, that their practices are not meant to be taken personally. And I don't think they are the result of an idiot at the helm. They are the result of a business decision that is rational, self- serving, and following a set of parameters that makes total sense for the goals and dreams they want to achieve. We might find it hard to understand the lack of evangelism for something that could be so good. But, putting ourselves in his shoes, what they are as a company is just right for them. They are at peace, and don't lose one nights sleep over our rantings on this list. The question for me is, can I use this tool to meet my needs. Right now, yes. It runs and runs and runs. Again, we don't have high volume and we don't do really complex stuff. the stuff I write works for me. And has since the beta version the Butler guys sent me. Day in and day out. So the shoe fits for me right now. Besides A man convinced his will is of the same opinion still as they say. The negative energy on the list isn't going to influence a business plan or philosophy that works for them. If you fit into their view of the world, then use the product and enjoy. If it doesn't, do like my friends Robert Garcia, and Scott Cadillac. Move on quietly, or in Robert's case, not so quietly. If it weren't for you guys, I couldn't have ever made a business case for using the software in a business situation. That is also part of Phil's calculations isn't it? What you have to sell, service wise Gene, isn't Witango. It is this list. I hope it is enough. It is for me. I am on several lists, and this is the most useful, enjoyable one of them all. I thank you all for that. You are all great guys and gals. Phil is going to do what he is going to do. Best of luck to him and his family. I hope his business plan works for him. With sincerity... my .02¢, Mark Weiss On Oct 4, 2007, at 9:08 AM, Scott Cadillac wrote: Gee Gene, are you telling me to shut-up? Now that's a waste of text. I'm only questioning your most recent post Gene. The fact they have a long standing reputation and are considered a very competent professional in your field doesn't excuse you from being called out when you do something rude. Being a professional is not a point system. If it was your management that gave you the go ahead to follow the ill-conceived advice of others from this List to do whatever it takes to piss Phil off enough to get his attention - then I profoundly apologize to you, your family, your ancestors and your descendants. You now have my sympathy, that you have to work
Re: Witango-Talk: Witango Customer Support
It happens to the best of us. ;-) -- Robert Garcia President - BigHead Technology VP Application Development - eventpix.com 13653 West Park Dr Magalia, Ca 95954 ph: 530.645.4040 x222 fax: 530.645.4040 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bighead.net/ - http://eventpix.com/ On Oct 4, 2007, at 10:17 PM, David Mark Weiss wrote: Sometimes, I can't think OR type. A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. That =20 is what I wanted to type. Sigh... On Oct 4, 2007, at 6:51 PM, David Mark Weiss wrote: I am, as most know, a english major, sales and marketing guy, who got in on Tango as a Butler user and have used it ever since. Our use was in the company my brother and I own. I did some work for a school district for a time, but mostly kept my use of the product to our internal needs. Many of you work on and solve problems using Witango that I just don't run into because our needs are so basic and simple. I admire so many of you, as I read daily the posts. I learn so much. So I look at this whole problem of passive aggressive behavior from a marketing angle. With Enterprises at this point in time (Phil, et al if there is an et al) is a company that doesn't want to grow very much. Why do I think that? 1) Their server price is well thought out IF you want to discourage massive growth for one. 2) Their Dev Tool may be the best, but again, since it is only a Witango product, it isn't fueling growth and while they could make it a tool for use with other language and make a nice business selling a dev tool, that would mean more growth and they don't want that much growth. 3) I have always felt that there was a conflict between With Ent and it's personal use of the product and the installed base. The silence seems not to be because they can't talk, but that they are talking to others, owners, who have greater influence. That is just a feeling. Why would a company not want growth? Because with growth comes greater responsibility, more responsibility than Phil wants to have. Many say that the perfect company is one that has no employees. But if you grow, you need those. Some say, the perfect company has diminutive service exposure as well. They way to keep that exposure small is to price and service so that only the most desperate or the beginners who are not likely to require a lot, use the product. The lack of returned emails, probably also a product of priorities. With Ent. using the product for their own needs first, and the left over time goes to whatever the installed base may be screaming about the loudest and longest. The point is, I have felt for a long time, that their practices are not meant to be taken personally. And I don't think they are the result of an idiot at the helm. They are the result of a business decision that is rational, self- serving, and following a set of parameters that makes total sense for the goals and dreams they want to achieve. We might find it hard to understand the lack of evangelism for something that could be so good. But, putting ourselves in his shoes, what they are as a company is just right for them. They are at peace, and don't lose one nights sleep over our rantings on this list. The question for me is, can I use this tool to meet my needs. Right now, yes. It runs and runs and runs. Again, we don't have high volume and we don't do really complex stuff. the stuff I write works for me. And has since the beta version the Butler guys sent me. Day in and day out. So the shoe fits for me right now. Besides A man convinced his will is of the same opinion still as they say. The negative energy on the list isn't going to influence a business plan or philosophy that works for them. If you fit into their view of the world, then use the product and enjoy. If it doesn't, do like my friends Robert Garcia, and Scott Cadillac. Move on quietly, or in Robert's case, not so quietly. If it weren't for you guys, I couldn't have ever made a business case for using the software in a business situation. That is also part of Phil's calculations isn't it? What you have to sell, service wise Gene, isn't Witango. It is this list. I hope it is enough. It is for me. I am on several lists, and this is the most useful, enjoyable one of them all. I thank you all for that. You are all great guys and gals. Phil is going to do what he is going to do. Best of luck to him and his family. I hope his business plan works for him. With sincerity... my .02¢, Mark Weiss On Oct 4, 2007, at 9:08 AM, Scott Cadillac wrote: Gee Gene, are you telling me to shut-up? Now that's a waste of text. I'm only questioning your most recent post Gene. The fact they have a long standing reputation and are considered a very competent professional in your field doesn't excuse you from being called out when you do something rude. Being a professional is
