Re: [WSG] Help with border

[Regnard Kreisler C. Raquedan]

Thanks for the suggestion! :)


On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 18:29:35 +1100, Jixor - Stephen I <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jixor - Stephen I wrote:
> 
> > Regnard Kreisler C. Raquedan wrote:
> >
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> I have a little problem with a border with a site I'm doing. The
> >> prototype's URL is http://www.raquedan.com/quickinfo.
> >>
> >> My 3-column lay-out has a bit of a snag. The left-most sub-column has
> >> a border that doesn't stretch all the way down to the length of the
> >> longest column (the center column).
> >>
> >> You can view the CSS at http://www.raquedan.com/quickinfo/styles.css
> >>
> >> Thanks for the help! :)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > Give both the left a right border and the center a left border, when
> > put a left margin -1 on the center so they overlap.
> 
> 
> Sorry, you must think I am drunk or something.
> 
> If the center is always going to be longer than the left put the border
> on the center. Otherwise, if the left may be longer than the center, put
> a border on both and make them overlap by positioning one over the other
> by 1px, either by position or margin -1px.
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> 
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> 
> 


-- 
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Macromedia Certified Professional

mobile: +63.919.2907711
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [WSG] Help with border

[Jixor - Stephen I]

Jixor - Stephen I wrote:
Regnard Kreisler C. Raquedan wrote:
Hello,
I have a little problem with a border with a site I'm doing. The
prototype's URL is http://www.raquedan.com/quickinfo.
My 3-column lay-out has a bit of a snag. The left-most sub-column has
a border that doesn't stretch all the way down to the length of the
longest column (the center column).
You can view the CSS at http://www.raquedan.com/quickinfo/styles.css
Thanks for the help! :)
 

Give both the left a right border and the center a left border, when 
put a left margin -1 on the center so they overlap.

Sorry, you must think I am drunk or something.
If the center is always going to be longer than the left put the border 
on the center. Otherwise, if the left may be longer than the center, put 
a border on both and make them overlap by positioning one over the other 
by 1px, either by position or margin -1px.
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Re: [WSG] Help with border

[Jixor - Stephen I]

Regnard Kreisler C. Raquedan wrote:
Hello,
I have a little problem with a border with a site I'm doing. The
prototype's URL is http://www.raquedan.com/quickinfo.
My 3-column lay-out has a bit of a snag. The left-most sub-column has
a border that doesn't stretch all the way down to the length of the
longest column (the center column).
You can view the CSS at http://www.raquedan.com/quickinfo/styles.css
Thanks for the help! :)
 

Give both the left a right border and the center a left border, when put 
a left margin -1 on the center so they overlap.
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Re: [WSG] Help with border

[Rick Faaberg]

On 1/13/05 11:03 PM "Regnard Kreisler C. Raquedan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent
this out:

> I have a little problem with a border with a site I'm doing. The
> prototype's URL is http://www.raquedan.com/quickinfo.
> 
> My 3-column lay-out has a bit of a snag. The left-most sub-column has
> a border that doesn't stretch all the way down to the length of the
> longest column (the center column).
> 
> You can view the CSS at http://www.raquedan.com/quickinfo/styles.css

I didn't check out your code and this may be stupid, but is the border on
the left column? Would it be better to have it on the center column?

Rick Faaberg

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[WSG] Help with border

[Regnard Kreisler C. Raquedan]

Hello,

I have a little problem with a border with a site I'm doing. The
prototype's URL is http://www.raquedan.com/quickinfo.

My 3-column lay-out has a bit of a snag. The left-most sub-column has
a border that doesn't stretch all the way down to the length of the
longest column (the center column).

You can view the CSS at http://www.raquedan.com/quickinfo/styles.css

Thanks for the help! :)

-- 
Regnard Kreisler C. Raquedan
Macromedia Certified Professional

mobile: +63.919.2907711
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://regnard.raquedan.com

--
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have to know, you just have to know who knows."
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Re: [WSG] Another Zen Garden Entry

[Jixor - Stephen I]

Charles Martin wrote:
Beautiful concept... I just would like to see the main column expand 
to the width of the available space... Have to do a lot of scrolling 
to reach the bottom... but just beautiful.

Just to have a bit of a go at most Zen designs, maybe.
It just wouldn't look as nice if it was wider, its a standard 
characteristic of the zen designs that they are very narrow. However I 
think in the case of the garden that is fine because its about showing 
off css, not usability.

Zen is this rare case where the goal is to make it as pretty as possible 
with regard for usability fairly optional (I mean obviously you couldn't 
take it to the extreme. I just mean little things, like width, colour 
combinations, etc.)

No offense intended.
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Re: [WSG] Another Zen Garden Entry

[Charles Martin]

Beautiful concept... I just would like to see the main column expand to 
the width of the available space... Have to do a lot of scrolling to 
reach the bottom... but just beautiful.

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Re: [WSG] Another Zen Garden Entry

[Jixor - Stephen I]

Mani Sheriar wrote:
Hi All,
I have made another CSS Zen Garden design ... after doing my first one I
just couldn't help myself - I was bit by the bug! (By the way, the
second time around was sooo much easier!)
Anyway, I was wondering if any of you might care to check it out and
offer me any feedback on the design, especially if there are any
problems on certain browsers. (But nice feedback about how much you like
it and how well it works is always welcomed too.) ;~)
Take a gander at it here: http://www.manisheriar.com/zengarden2/ 

Thanks a bunch!
Mani Sheriar
Sheriar Designs | http://www.ManiSheriar.com
925|914.0741
 

One suggestion would be to add space around the bottom of the main 
container to match the space at the top. Maybe even add another flower 
background image to the bottom or bottom corner? But these are just 
style suggestions, nothing technically (css/browser) wrong with the 
current design (that I can see).
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[WSG] Another Zen Garden Entry

[Mani Sheriar]

Hi All,

I have made another CSS Zen Garden design ... after doing my first one I
just couldn't help myself - I was bit by the bug! (By the way, the
second time around was sooo much easier!)

Anyway, I was wondering if any of you might care to check it out and
offer me any feedback on the design, especially if there are any
problems on certain browsers. (But nice feedback about how much you like
it and how well it works is always welcomed too.) ;~)

Take a gander at it here: http://www.manisheriar.com/zengarden2/ 

Thanks a bunch!

Mani Sheriar
Sheriar Designs | http://www.ManiSheriar.com
925|914.0741
 
 



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Re: [WSG] IE5.01 Troubles

[Jixor - Stephen I]

Tom Livingston wrote:
Hello all,
On this page:
http://66.155.251.20/picotte.com/about/
my layout is bustin' out in IE5.01. Can anyone spot why? 5.5 and 6 are 
good.

Thanks for any help.

Tom Livingston
Senior Multimedia Artist
Media Logic
mlinc.com
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Looks to be the width of the left or right section.
Check the differances between the widths, for rightside there is 322 and 
327, is that correct?
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Re: [WSG] Popups (plus, standards-based event handling)

[Ben Curtis]

Also, while it's convenient to insert javascript event handlers into
HTML
markup when demonstrating an example, in practice it's probably best
to
leave the script out of the markup and apply it from a separate
script file
at window.onload.
One beef I have with this code, and most code of this nature, is that
it uses this to trigger it:
window.onload = externalLinks;
This is fine, if it's the only code you are assigning to onload, but  
it
overwrites any previous onloads and is overwritten by subsequent
onloads.
http://www.bivia.com/sandbox/crossfade_slideshow/ 
test_bv_addListener.html

Wow, your method looks elaborate.
A bit. But you put it in a central utilities-script file, and then all  
you need to do is call it so you never need to see the elaboration.  
Instead of the DOM:

el.addEventListener('event', func, bool);
...you call a function that does the same, but cross-browser:
bv_addListener(el, 'event', func);

Another method I've imagined but never implemented is for each added  
function to add itself to an array of functions.
This is essentially how I used to do it. Each js file that housed a  
certain behavior would have this at the end:

if (!window.ToLoad) window.ToLoad = new Array();
window.ToLoad[window.ToLoad.length] = someFuncName;
window.onload = function() {
for (var xx = window.ToLoad.length -1; xx >= 0; xx--) {
window.ToLoad[xx]();
}
}
It's efficient. Your imagination is  should try it. Notice that it uses  
FILO ordering of the handlers (that's First In, Last Out, or reverse  
order from being added).

The advantage to my other code is that it adds any event handler to any  
event on any object. So, in this case, the same code could be used to  
cue the init script, and the init script could use it to add the  
onclick handlers.

--
Ben Curtis
WebSciences International
http://www.websciences.org/
v: (310) 478-6648
f: (310) 235-2067

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Re: [WSG] Popups (plus, standards-based event handling)

[Paul Novitski]

At 02:39 PM 1/13/05, Ben Curtis wrote:
Also, while it's convenient to insert javascript event handlers into
HTML
markup when demonstrating an example, in practice it's probably best
to
leave the script out of the markup and apply it from a separate
script file
at window.onload.
One beef I have with this code, and most code of this nature, is that
it uses this to trigger it:
window.onload = externalLinks;
This is fine, if it's the only code you are assigning to onload, but it
overwrites any previous onloads and is overwritten by subsequent
onloads.

Ben,
Wow, your method looks elaborate.  When I have some more time I'll go 
through it in detail and try to give you some feedback.

In the meantime, the way I get around the one-function-onload problem is 
simply to load a generically-named function at the global level:

window.onload = jsInit;
Then, jsInit() can be defined differently by each page to load its own 
batch of functions:

function jsInit()
{
var x = doThis();
var x = doThat();
}
This method isn't *ideal* because I have to list all of the onload 
functions manually for each page, instead of simply attaching the functions 
to the html file with 

Re: [WSG] Popups (plus, standards-based event handling)

[JohnyB]

window.onload = externalLinks;
This is fine, if it's the only code you are assigning to onload, but it  
overwrites any previous onloads and is overwritten by subsequent  
onloads. ...
Another issue is that it works only after loading the whole page... I 
use it in (testing setup of) a photogallery on 
http://lesik.cz/index.php?i=4 and visitor "has to" wait for the whole 
page to load to have it fully functional (Actually they don't wait and 
the have the less functional version...). So I was wondering if placing 
the 

Re: [WSG] Two CSS Question

[Paul Novitski]

At 02:14 PM 1/13/05, Carl Reynolds wrote:
If I have a section of HTML that is the same in all my files, is there a 
way to put it in a file by itself and include it into each page?

Carl,
Here are two ways (I'll be interested to learn about others):
1) Use a server-side scripting language such as ASP, Perl, or PHP to 
include component files into one downloaded page.  ASP can do this either 
with the #INCLUDE directive or through file I/O using the FileSystemObject 
object, and I'm sure the other server-side scripting languages have 
comparable methods.

2) Use a JavaScript inclusion directive in your HTML headers, e.g.:

...in which navmenu.js contains something like this:
var navMenu = '
Aardvark
Bananafish
'
...and then write the value of navMenu into your document structure.
Paul 

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RE: [WSG] Two CSS Question

[Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]]

> -Original Message-
> From: Carl Reynolds [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Friday, 14 January 2005 9:15 AM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Two CSS Question
> 
> Salman,
> 
> I'm glad you asked about including, I have wondered that 
> myself. I would 
> like to add another question to yours: If I have a section of 
> HTML that 
> is the same in all my files, is there a way to put it in a file by 
> itself and include it into each page?

Unfortunately you can't do something like that with the import or LINK
methods. You could do it with PHP or ASP programming, something like this:

Include("yourFile.html");

OR Server Side Include (SSI):



All of these require the appropriate settings on your server, but if you
have got any of them - should be no problem.


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Re: [WSG] Popups (plus, standards-based event handling)

[Ben Curtis]

Also, while it's convenient to insert javascript event handlers into  
HTML
markup when demonstrating an example, in practice it's probably best  
to
leave the script out of the markup and apply it from a separate
script file
at window.onload.
I'm curious as to how you do that, because to my mind it's a great  
idea.
Keeping it out of the markup would make sure that the code of the page
itself remains nice and lean and would also make it easier to remove  
the
popups altogether if such a feat was necessary.

If you could elaborate on that, either on or off list, I'd really  
appreciate
it. :)
Here's a place you can start:
http://www.sitepoint.com/article/standards-compliant-world
One beef I have with this code, and most code of this nature, is that  
it uses this to trigger it:

window.onload = externalLinks;
This is fine, if it's the only code you are assigning to onload, but it  
overwrites any previous onloads and is overwritten by subsequent  
onloads. But it should use the DOM (a standard! woohoo!) when possible  
to add a handler to an event. Unfortunately, IE on Windows doesn't use  
this, and IE on Mac won't use what IE Win uses. So I've written this  
code, that you are free to use (beware of line wrap, and send support  
questions offlist):

/*
	the ondocload "event" is triggered by this code you place before the  
closing body tag:

window.ondocload();

	it is the event before onload that indicates the document is done  
downloading;
	after the func declaration we set two handlers to make sure events  
assigned to
	docload are triggered onload if the author forgets to put the call in  
the doc.
*/
function bv_addListener(el, evt, fn) {
	if (typeof el == "string") el = document.getElementById(el);
	if (!el) return;
	if (window.addEventListener && evt != 'docload') { // DOM
		el.addEventListener(evt, fn, false); // false, because IE can't  
handle the truth
	} else if (window.attachEvent && evt != 'docload') { // MS, incl Opera
		el.attachEvent('on'+ evt, fn);
	} else { // Mac IE and the ondocload event
		var prevHandler = (typeof el['on'+ evt] == 'function') ? el['on'+  
evt] : function () {};
		el['on'+ evt] = function() { prevHandler(); fn(); }
	}
}
bv_addListener(window, 'docload', function () { window.bv_docInited =  
true; });
bv_addListener(window, 'load', function () { if (!window.bv_docInited)  
window.ondocload(); });
/* END bv_addListener */

Now, if you want a script to run when the HTML has finished downloading  
(e.g., initialization scripts), use this:

bv_addListener(window, 'docload', someFuncName);
If you want something to run onload:
bv_addListener(window, 'load', someFuncName);
If you want to add any handler (e.g., someClickHandler) to any event  
(e.g., onclick) on any element (e.g., el), use this:

bv_addListener(el, 'click', someClickHandler);
If you don't have an element object to pass, it also accepts an ID as a  
string (and a future version will accept classes -- let me know if this  
interests you); this is handy when you want to attach an event to an  
element that doesn't exist yet:

	bv_addListener(window, 'docload', function () {  
bv_addListener('someID', 'click', someClickHandler); });

The testpage for this is here:
http://www.bivia.com/sandbox/crossfade_slideshow/ 
test_bv_addListener.html
(tests will report as failed until the event is triggered -- until you  
click or mouseover)

I tested it a bunch, but would appreciate reports of other platforms  
success/failure. Once I get out from under some deadlines, I'll write  
this technique up and give it to the community.

--
Ben Curtis
WebSciences International
http://www.websciences.org/
v: (310) 478-6648
f: (310) 235-2067

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RE: [WSG] Popups

[Seona Bellamy]

That's great, thank you very much. I have a project coming up where a script
like this will be very useful. :)

Cheers,

Seona.

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Paul Novitski
> Sent: Friday, 14 January 2005 9:07 AM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: RE: [WSG] Popups
> 
> 
> At 01:20 PM 1/13/05, Seona Bellamy wrote:
> > > -Original Message-
> > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Paul Novitski
> > > Subject: Re: [WSG] Popups
> > > Also, while it's convenient to insert javascript event 
> handlers into HTML
> > > markup when demonstrating an example, in practice it's 
> probably best to
> > > leave the script out of the markup and apply it from a separate
> > > script file
> > > at window.onload.
> >
> >I'm curious as to how you do that, because to my mind it's a great idea.
> >Keeping it out of the markup would make sure that the code of the page
> >itself remains nice and lean and would also make it easier to remove the
> >popups altogether if such a feat was necessary.
> 
> 
> Seona,
> 
> Here's a quickie example in which I assign Jeff's href event handler to a 
> single specific hyperlink:
> 
> ===
> HTML:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://example.com";>Open the example site
> 
> 
> ===
> JavaScript:
> 
> // this file is "assignevent.js"
> 
> 
> // Tell javascript to run a function when the page finishes loading:
> window.onload = jsAssignEvent;
> 
> 
> // When the page loads, assign the event handler to the object:
> function jsAssignEvent()
> {
>  // don't run code the browser can't handle
>  if (document.getElementById)
>  {
>  // get the object
>  var oAnchor = document.getElementById("anchor1");
> 
>  // assign the event handler
>  oAnchor.onclick = jsOpenLinkWindow;
>  }
> }
> 
> 
> // When the link is clicked, open the new window:
> function jsOpenLinkWindow(evt)
> {
>  // stop event propagation
>  if (!evt) var evt = window.event;
>  evt.cancelBubble = true;
>  if (evt.stopPropagation) evt.stopPropagation();
> 
>  // open the link in a new window
>  window.open(this.href, '_blank', 
> 'width=500,height=500,menubar=no');
> 
>  // cancel the click event so the parent window location 
> doesn't change
>  return false;
> }
> ===
> 
> I recommend Peter Paul Koch's articles on event handlers & javascript at 
> http://www.quirksmode.org/
> 
> Cheers,
> Paul 
> 
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Re: [WSG] Two CSS Question

[Carl Reynolds]

Salman,
I'm glad you asked about including, I have wondered that myself. I would 
like to add another question to yours: If I have a section of HTML that 
is the same in all my files, is there a way to put it in a file by 
itself and include it into each page?

As far as your question #2 goes: are you talking about something like
#id { width: 100%; }
---
content
Carl.


Salman, Khwaja wrote:
Hi People,
I am a Tech Writer and Web Developer. I am usually a silent reader in
WSG and being reading the amazing eye opening stuff about user
accessibily, layouts and many interesting stuffs.
1) 

I would like ask what is the difference between using  and
@import statement in linking style sheets.
Both of them atatches the Style sheet to an HTML document, I would
like to know the pros and cons of attaching with link rel or attaching
with @import.
2)
Second, in CSS2, is there always a wrapper ID we have to define for
all our elements to hold. In other words we are restricting our selves
to be in the least minimum screen sizes.
Let me ask in another way. If i am using tables as layouts, (which I do
not like these days) I use width attribute as 100 %.
Is there any way to achieve the same funcionality in CSS 2 and with
screen size in-dependence.
Salman.
 

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RE: [WSG] Popups

[Paul Novitski]

At 01:20 PM 1/13/05, Seona Bellamy wrote:
> -Original Message-
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Paul Novitski
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Popups
> Also, while it's convenient to insert javascript event handlers into HTML
> markup when demonstrating an example, in practice it's probably best to
> leave the script out of the markup and apply it from a separate
> script file
> at window.onload.
I'm curious as to how you do that, because to my mind it's a great idea.
Keeping it out of the markup would make sure that the code of the page
itself remains nice and lean and would also make it easier to remove the
popups altogether if such a feat was necessary.

Seona,
Here's a quickie example in which I assign Jeff's href event handler to a 
single specific hyperlink:

===
HTML:




http://example.com";>Open the example site

===
JavaScript:
// this file is "assignevent.js"
// Tell javascript to run a function when the page finishes loading:
window.onload = jsAssignEvent;
// When the page loads, assign the event handler to the object:
function jsAssignEvent()
{
// don't run code the browser can't handle
if (document.getElementById)
{
// get the object
var oAnchor = document.getElementById("anchor1");
// assign the event handler
oAnchor.onclick = jsOpenLinkWindow;
}
}
// When the link is clicked, open the new window:
function jsOpenLinkWindow(evt)
{
// stop event propagation
if (!evt) var evt = window.event;
evt.cancelBubble = true;
if (evt.stopPropagation) evt.stopPropagation();
// open the link in a new window
window.open(this.href, '_blank', 'width=500,height=500,menubar=no');
// cancel the click event so the parent window location doesn't change
return false;
}
===
I recommend Peter Paul Koch's articles on event handlers & javascript at 
http://www.quirksmode.org/

Cheers,
Paul 

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Re: [WSG] Two CSS Question

[JohnyB]

link, providing two media types separated bya a comma and a space:

If you need to use a style switcher,  is the only choice. I
personally prefer using  rather than @import.
@import has another issue, called FOUC
Yes, this is the information I wanted to send to the list - I also 
prefer link w/ 2 medias...

--
Jan Brasna :: alphanumeric.cz | webcore.cz | designlab.cz | janbrasna.com
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Re: [WSG] Two CSS Question

[Bruno Torres]

> 1)
> 
> I would like ask what is the difference between using  and
> @import statement in linking style sheets.
> 
> Both of them atatches the Style sheet to an HTML document, I would
> like to know the pros and cons of attaching with link rel or attaching
> with @import.

@import will not be recognized by Netscape 4, so it's used to hide the
css from this browser. But you can hide the css from it also using
link, providing two media types separated bya a comma and a space:

If you need to use a style switcher,  is the only choice. I
personally prefer using  rather than @import.
@import has another issue, called FOUC
(http://www.bluerobot.com/web/css/fouc.asp)

 
> 2)
> Second, in CSS2, is there always a wrapper ID we have to define for
> all our elements to hold. In other words we are restricting our selves
> to be in the least minimum screen sizes.
> 
> Let me ask in another way. If i am using tables as layouts, (which I do
> not like these days) I use width attribute as 100 %.
> 
> Is there any way to achieve the same funcionality in CSS 2 and with
> screen size in-dependence.
> 

Of course you can do resolution independent layouts using css using
percentages instead of pixels. It's called 'fluid' layout. for
example, wired (www.wired.com)  uses a CSS fluid layout. A google
search for css fluid layout can have you a lot of links about it
(http://www.google.com/search?q=css+fluid+layout). Del.icio.us can
help too (http://del.icio.us/tag/css+fluid).
Cheers!

-- 
Bruno Cunha Torres
http://www.brunotorres.net/
http://www.dotplusweb.com/
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RE: [WSG] Two CSS Question

[Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]]

> -Original Message-
> From: Salman, Khwaja [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Friday, 14 January 2005 7:17 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [WSG] Two CSS Question
> 1) 
> 
> I would like ask what is the difference between using  and
> @import statement in linking style sheets.
> 
> Both of them atatches the Style sheet to an HTML document, I would
> like to know the pros and cons of attaching with link rel or attaching
> with @import.

 works in all browsers that support css
@import only works in the latest browsers (NN4 and a couple of others ignore
it)

Which means you have got some possibilities to let browsers such as Netscape
ignore all your css if you use the @import rule. Is quite handy sometimes.
There are also different media you can import for. E.g. you can specifically
import a css just for "print" - so what your printer spits out can look
different to what is on the screen.

> 2)
> Second, in CSS2, is there always a wrapper ID we have to define for
> all our elements to hold. In other words we are restricting our selves
> to be in the least minimum screen sizes.
> 
> Let me ask in another way. If i am using tables as layouts, 
> (which I do
> not like these days) I use width attribute as 100 %.
> 
> Is there any way to achieve the same funcionality in CSS 2 and with
> screen size in-dependence.

There are possibilities to set widths to 100% but they are interpreted
differently by some of the browsers. In general though: all DIVs take up
100% of the space they have got (unless specified differently). So you can
use this behaviour to lay out your page just as you do with tables.

In short: css is as flexible with different screen resolutions as are
tables. Probably the only exception is the height:100% that you were able to
put into tables in some browsers. Replicating that with css is fairly
difficult.


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[WSG] IE5.01 Troubles

[Tom Livingston]

Hello all,
On this page:
http://66.155.251.20/picotte.com/about/
my layout is bustin' out in IE5.01. Can anyone spot why? 5.5 and 6 are 
good.

Thanks for any help.

Tom Livingston
Senior Multimedia Artist
Media Logic
mlinc.com
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RE: [WSG] Popups

[Seona Bellamy]

> -Original Message-
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Paul Novitski
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Popups
> Also, while it's convenient to insert javascript event handlers into HTML 
> markup when demonstrating an example, in practice it's probably best to 
> leave the script out of the markup and apply it from a separate 
> script file 
> at window.onload.

I'm curious as to how you do that, because to my mind it's a great idea.
Keeping it out of the markup would make sure that the code of the page
itself remains nice and lean and would also make it easier to remove the
popups altogether if such a feat was necessary.

If you could elaborate on that, either on or off list, I'd really appreciate
it. :)

Cheers,

Seona.

__
<< ella for Spam Control >> has removed Spam messages and set aside Later
for me
You can use it too - and it's FREE!  http://www.ellaforspam.com

-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 - Release Date: 12/01/2005
 
<>

Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team

[David R]

Sorry for bringing up this (really) dead thread
But I finally got a response from the press team... suffice to say it 
wasn't what I wanted to hear:

Brian Peterson wrote:
Hi David,
Thank you for the additional information and I appreciate your patience
with this request.  However, I just heard back from my colleagues, and
unfortunately, I'm afraid we are unable to participate in this
particular opportunity at this time.  I apologize for the inconvenience.
Best regards,
Brian
Ah well...
Say next time we all gang up and pose as C|Net? ;)
--
-David R
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Re: [WSG] Popups

[Paul Novitski]

At 11:58 AM 1/13/05, Jeffrey Hardy wrote:
...
Here's an example of a call to window.open with the 'properties'  argument:
onclick="window.open(this.href, '_blank', 'width=500, height=500, 
menubar=no'); return false;"

Nice summary, Jeff.
One correction: you're not supposed to embed spaces in the properties list, 
so your example should read:

'width=500,height=500,menubar=no'
Also, while it's convenient to insert javascript event handlers into HTML 
markup when demonstrating an example, in practice it's probably best to 
leave the script out of the markup and apply it from a separate script file 
at window.onload.

Regards,
Paul 

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Re: [WSG] Two CSS Question

[Johannes Reiss]

Hi,


> Hi People,
> 
> I am a Tech Writer and Web Developer. I am usually a silent reader in
> WSG and being reading the amazing eye opening stuff about user
> accessibily, layouts and many interesting stuffs.
> 
> 1) 
> 
> I would like ask what is the difference between using  and
> @import statement in linking style sheets.
> 
> Both of them atatches the Style sheet to an HTML document, I would
> like to know the pros and cons of attaching with link rel or attaching
> with @import.
> 


ad 1)

@import url ("url_css_file") hides stylesheet from NN4, IE 3 and 4
(Win) and IE4.01 and 4.5 (Mac)

@import url (url_css_file) hides stylesheet from NN4, IE 3 and 4 (Win) and IE4
only reads it, when it lies in the same folder like the php- or htm-file

@import "url_css_file" (without "URL") hides it from NN4, IE 3 and 4 and
Konqueror 2.1.2 (Linux)

greetings
johannes


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> 
> 
> 
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[WSG] Two CSS Question

[Salman, Khwaja]

Hi People,

I am a Tech Writer and Web Developer. I am usually a silent reader in
WSG and being reading the amazing eye opening stuff about user
accessibily, layouts and many interesting stuffs.

1) 

I would like ask what is the difference between using  and
@import statement in linking style sheets.

Both of them atatches the Style sheet to an HTML document, I would
like to know the pros and cons of attaching with link rel or attaching
with @import.


2)
Second, in CSS2, is there always a wrapper ID we have to define for
all our elements to hold. In other words we are restricting our selves
to be in the least minimum screen sizes.

Let me ask in another way. If i am using tables as layouts, (which I do
not like these days) I use width attribute as 100 %.

Is there any way to achieve the same funcionality in CSS 2 and with
screen size in-dependence.

Salman.

-- 
It's the attitude that determines the altitude of flight

Salman, Khwaja
Tech Writer - Halcyon.
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Re: [WSG] Popups

[Jeffrey Hardy]

I got into this discussion late and, while most of the thread has been 
about showing and hiding layers, I thought I'd try to shed some light on 
the subject of the message, and David's main question: opening new windows.

This has been mentioned here before, but it seems to come up pretty 
often, so I'll attempt to provide a clear answer for everyone.

david wrote:
> Ordinarily, this would be achieved with the help of JavaScript and
> Window.Open(), so much for cross-browser compatibility.
>
> Then there's the target="_blank" anchor attribute, but this is
> disallowed by the DTD I'm using (XHTML1.1 w/ IFrame), that... plus it 
> doesn't offer a way to get rid of browser UI elements.

My preferred method is to create a standard anchor element (http://example.com";>) and utilize the onclick handler to call 
javascript's window.open() method with arguments.

Here's a simple example:
http://example.com/"; title="More about example."
onclick="window.open(this.href, '_blank'); return false;">Example
Note that the link is valid and well-formed.  It's actually perfectly 
accessible despite the javascript -- even with javascript turned off in 
the client, the href attribute would suffice and the browser would 
handle the hyperlink as usual.

If javascript is turned on, however, it will respond to the onclick 
event by executing the window.open function, and then return false to 
tell the browser not to bother handling the event:

onclick="window.open(this.href, '_blank'); return false;"
The first argument, 'this.href' is key. By using 'this.href', we are 
accessing the value of the current element's 'href' attribute. This 
means we don't need to supply window.open() with the url manually -- it 
will use the same value as the 'href' attribute in our link, in our 
case, 'http://example.com'.

The second argument (the 'name' of the new window to be created) is 
given the special name, '_blank', which serves to inform window.open() 
that it is to launch a new window. Think of it like using  in older versions of html.

Note that we follow the call to window.open() by returning false to the 
event handler (return false;).  This is important as it prevents the 
browser from handling the link itself. If the onclick handler doesn't 
return false, the browser will handle the click normally, and both 
windows will wind up at http://example.com.

For David, who wanted to know about controlling the attributes of the 
new window, there is an optional third argument that window.open() 
accepts -- a string of properties for the new window.

Here's an example of a call to window.open with the 'properties'  argument:
onclick="window.open(this.href, '_blank', 'width=500, height=500, 
menubar=no'); return false;"

Going back to our original example, we can revise it so that it opens a 
new window to 'http://example.com' that is 500px wide, and 500px high 
with no menubar:

http://example.com/"; title="More about example."
onclick="window.open(this.href, '_blank', 'width=500, height=500, 
menubar=no'); return false;">Example

It's probably worth noting that, as per the xhtml spec, you need all 
your attributes to be lowercase (including attributes that pertain to 
event handlers).  So, while "onClick" may work in most browsers, you'll 
need to use "onclick" if you want xhtml compliance.

While I generally try to avoid creating new windows, I do on occasion 
use this method as a straight-up replacement for target="_blank" when 
appropriate.

Hope this helps!
Jeff.
--
Jeffrey Hardy
Application Developer
http://shiftmediagroup.com
Standards Compliant Web Development
david wrote:
Here's the situation:
I've got a form that users fill out in order to add something to a
database...
Under each , there's the  element for each of the
input elements, and that works fine
But because of the layout of the page, the  values are kept
short, yes... there are title="" attributes, but IE and FF don't show
the whole text
So I was thinking about doing what other sites do... and thats to put
a "more info on this field" link, people click on it, and a popup
appears with the minimum of browser UI chrome and jumps to the right
section in the code
Ordinarily, this would be achieved with the help of JavaScript and
Window.Open(), so much for cross-browser compatibility.
Then there's the target="_blank" anchor attribute, but this is
disallowed by the DTD I'm using (XHTML1.1 w/ IFrame), that... plus it
doesn't offer a way to get rid of browser UI elements.
Does anyone have any alternatives?
I was thinking of having a JavaScript "show/hide" function with the
instructions and extra detail contained in a 


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Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?

[Ben Curtis]

On Jan 13, 2005, at 10:01 AM, Andy Budd wrote, in part:
hairs and getting semantic, isn't all information on a website 
really just data? So why can't present it all using tables?
Because it is not *tabular* data, unlike the practicular form that 
this
discussion is all about.
Why? How can you say that a bunch of empty form elements are "tabular 
data" even if there isn't any data?
...
When you apply for a bank load do they give you a "table of blank 
data" to fill in or do they give you a "form" to fill in?

Table:  An orderly arrangement of data, especially one in which the 
data are arranged in columns and rows in an essentially rectangular 
form

Form:  Document with blanks for the insertion of details or information

Null values for named data fields *are* data; empty form fields contain 
data, and those data are null. They still have meaning, and the meaning 
is contained within the rows (groups) and the three columns (age range, 
# of travelers, trip cost per person). A bank form rarely includes 
tabular data; mostly, it includes a number of questions that relate to 
you, but not to each other in a columnar way. This author wanted to 
create a form that applies identically to a number of groups, not just 
a single group.

Allow me to quote the initial request:
We have a use for a table inside a form. We want to sell a group 
travel insurance product and many of the questions are simple entries 
and their may be a large number of people on a trip.
...
You have three fields to input for each group: age range, # of 
travelers, trip cost per/person. My first instinct is to put each sub 
group into a fieldset and repeat the labels and inputs.
To use fieldsets would destroy the semantic declaration of a 
relationship between groups; even though each fieldset would contain a 
field that represents the number of travelers, there would be nothing 
in the markup that declares these data as related in the same way to 
their respective group. In short, you could not pull from fieldsets the 
answer to the question "Which group has the most travellers?" That is 
why marking it up as a table is useful.

--
Ben Curtis
WebSciences International
http://www.websciences.org/
v: (310) 478-6648
f: (310) 235-2067

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[WSG] Positioning: A Better Way?

[Wayne Godfrey]

Hi, everyone,

I have a  a main navigation menu (ul) positioned as "absolute." It works
fine as is, but I need to add a sub navigation under it. Every time I try,
the sub nav ends up not falling in place. The sub nav will be another ul and
is not currently on my page. What I'm wondering is there a better way to
position the main nav so that the sub nav can then just fall into place
underneath? The only real kicker here is that the background image in the
header contains the bar that the main nav ul sits on, so position is
critical.

The particulars:

Page: 

CSS: 

Any help will be greatly appreciated, as I seem to be having one of those
brain-dead days...arrggg!!

Wayne

--
Wayne Godfrey
President, Creative Director
Outgate Media, Inc.

<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--


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Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?

[Kornel Lesinski]

The point is that it is not layout table.
Of course it's a layout table. You're using a table so you can lay out  
your labels next to your inputs all nice and neat.
No, it is what you suggest. Original post is not about that. Have you read  
it?

--
regards, Kornel Lesiński
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Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?

[Ben Curtis]

Part of the point of using CSS for layout is it gives us the ability 
to separate the content from the presentation. Slapping a form into 
table cells doesn't allow this. It makes it much harder for instance 
to restyle the form so the labels appear above, rather than next to 
the form inputs.
I think you misunderstand the context. Changing the position of tabular 
data changes the data's meaning; position in this case is not 
presentation, but content. That's why tables are rigid in their 
placement of things.

Labels are not separate and distinct items of the tabular data, and 
should not be confined to separate tabular-data () fields. Labels, 
acting as meta-data when associated with tabular data, IMO should be 
placed within the same td as the data they label; to do otherwise would 
lose the meaning of the row and/or column. Because in tables, the 
placement conveys meaning.

What is important in this thread is not the tables vs no tables layout 
question; this is the same discussion as we always have whenever 
tabular or quasi-tabular data is mentioned. Refer to the archive for 
more.

What is important is the recognition that form elements are merely a 
means to mark up content such that you declare it editable in specific 
ways by the user, and the choice to present data as editable does not 
change the data's meaning. Purely interactive/declarative elements 
without content (e.g., buttons, the form tag itself) are the exception, 
and in this discussion I think they ought to be outside of the table.

--
Ben Curtis
WebSciences International
http://www.websciences.org/
v: (310) 478-6648
f: (310) 235-2067

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Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?

[Paul Connolley]

I missed a bit of text
On 13 Jan 2005, at 18:18, Paul Connolley wrote:
If I can possibly allow you to stretch your imaginations for a moment. 
Imagine me presenting you with a set of axes on some graph paper for a 
line/scatter plot and asking you to put your information onto it. It 
just wouldn't happen would it.
It seems extreme but I wish you to consider how you collect 
information. There are only several situations in which you would have 
a table layout for data input. If the information is predominantly 
numeric. Classroom and workplace rosters often have rows and columns 
for each student/employee. This is common in other recurring data 
collation methods. This is where the information is accumulated over 
time and it is quite simple to follow one row by the next.

I think you should consider how usable the form would be if it were a 
huge table of inputs. Scary. I'd personally click back to google and 
find a better website. One where I wouldn't have to register so much 
information. I'm not sure what information is being collected but can 
you justify storing named data about so many people? Data protection is 
quintessential. Is it necessary to find out so much.

This seems to be the most usable method.
The HTML specification gives you several elements for data separation 
and input. The fieldset, form, legend, label, input and textarea 
elements. You could create a simple grid layout with CSS if you really 
couldn't implement a better form method but I'd say that one or two 
individuals per page would be better.

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Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?

[Paul Connolley]

On 13 Jan 2005, at 16:47, Kornel Lesinski wrote:
The point is that it is not layout table.
Well, to be pedantic, a table is all about layout. Layout of 
information.

It has semantic value.
I really hate that statement.
It's a kind of table that can have summary, caption, headers and
contains repeating sets of data.
Data (n.) - The plural of datum meaning information (lat. "something 
given")

Everything is data. Even a list is data.
Because it is not *tabular* data, unlike the practicular form that this
discussion is all about.
Forms are about collation of information. For a second, I'd like people 
to stop thinking about HTML and consider the world of paper which still 
exists. As a student of statistics I had to collect information (data 
collation as my lecturer would put it of occasion) and analyse it. To 
collate the information I had to create a questionnaire. It would 
consist of a series of questions followed by answers. Upon finishing my 
analysis I would then open up a spreadsheet and type up the results. In 
order to qualify as passing, standard scientific form had to be 
followed. At no point did I use a table for anything other than a 
result. Processed information.

If I can possibly allow you to stretch your imaginations for a moment. 
Imagine me presenting you with a set of axes on some graph paper for a 
line/scatter plot and asking you to put your information onto it. It 
just wouldn't happen would it.

I would almost think you'd want to deal with each traveler separately, 
one
at a time, in some sort of paged form. For instance, if I fill out the
initial part of the form and indicate 5 travelers to be insured, the 
form
would be submitted, the initial form fields temporarily stored, and 
then the
next form presented with fields for traveler 1. Once that is filled and
submitted, on to traveler two.
This seems to be the most usable method.
--
Paul Connolley
--
Paul Connolley
SQL/Systems Programmer
Egocentric - http://egocentric.co.uk
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Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?

[Andy Budd]

Kornel Lesinski wrote:
The point is that it is not layout table.
Of course it's a layout table. You're using a table so you can lay out 
your labels next to your inputs all nice and neat. It doesn't contain 
any data yet, just a bunch of form inputs. It's not data, it's a means 
of laying out a data input interface!

It has semantic value.
It's a kind of table that can have summary, caption, headers and
contains repeating sets of data.
I don't think that has anything to do with it as you could easily argue 
that certain types of site content could also benefit from these 
things. Forms already give you the ability to associate labels with 
inputs, group sets of form controls together and give them a cation. 
You don't need a table to give form controls semantic meaning.

hairs and getting semantic, isn't all information on a website really 
just data? So why can't present it all using tables?
Because it is not *tabular* data, unlike the practicular form that this
discussion is all about.
Why? How can you say that a bunch of empty form elements are "tabular 
data" even if there isn't any data? At least a page of news stories 
actually contains something that could reasonably be described as data?

When you apply for a bank load do they give you a "table of blank data" 
to fill in or do they give you a "form" to fill in?

Table:  An orderly arrangement of data, especially one in which the 
data are arranged in columns and rows in an essentially rectangular 
form

Form:  Document with blanks for the insertion of details or information
They seem distinctly different things to me.
Andy Budd
http://www.message.uk.com/
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RE: Are forms tabular data? (was Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?)

[Iain Gardiner]

Hi David,

I didn't mean to sound quite so belligerent, I apologise, and I also take
your point: they are all equally valid at the moment.  In the future as
browsers come more into line with supporting things properly they may not
be.  No one knows, so maybe this discussion is all academic.  I do enjoy a
good discussion however.  ;)

I have too often seen people referring to the fact a browser supports a tag
as 'semantics' which is of course totally wrong.  I incorrectly read your
post as more of the same.  I just strongly believe in the difference between
semantics and code for code's sake.

Iain

--
Iain Gardiner
http://www.firelightning.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David R
Sent: 12 January 2005 22:39
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: Are forms tabular data? (was Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a
form?)


Iain Gardiner wrote:
> They are only "semantically correct" when used within specific 
> contexts.
> 
> Too many people confuse semantics (the implicit meaning of markup) 
> with valid html (correct code).  They are two completely different 
> sides of the same coin.  If it doesn't matter to you, then you're a 
> member of the wrong list.

Lets not start a flame war ;)

Tables are used to define data, data sets, results, and "columnar" 
information.

DefLists () are strictly for the listing of defintions, its 
generally accepted practice to use this element for information 
displayed in "title/content" pairs.

And fieldsets are used to group related input fields.

Consider that Tables are equally qualified to display information in 
"title/content" format, this is how databases store information, and 
from a glance, an Excel spreadsheet is no different from a database's 
dataview, or a table containing the same data.

Real-world(tm) forms, such as Tax Returns, are often layouted in a 
"tabular" manner... see for yourself, its tax-season in the states right 
now (AFAIK).

But at the same time, a  could be used, as virtually all the 
questions on a tax return are in the "Question: Write/Choose your 
answer" format.

Don't accuse me of confusing semantics with valid code, I think I know 
the difference. It seems you're the one confusing me with a beginner in 
the field. I'm not an idealist, I'm a realist, and in the real world, it 
doesn't make a difference regarding semantics, accessibility, 
rendering/apperance or usability in general.

All are equally valid!

--
-David R
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Re: [WSG] iframe and HTML 401 strict.

[David R]

Bert Doorn wrote:
berry wrote:
If you want to use iframes, use a Transitional or Frameset doctype.  For
similar functionality in Strict, use object:
Text here for older browsers (perhaps a link to 
vide.htm)
IFrames have made a comeback in XHTML1.1 if you include the IFrame DTD 
module.

Just do this:
http://yourdomain/xhtml-11-iframe.dtd";>

where "xhtml-11-iframe.dtd" is a plain text file containing this string:




http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd"; > %xhtml11.mod;

PUBLIC "-//W3C//ELEMENTS XHTML Inline Frame Element 1.0//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/DTD/xhtml-iframe-1.mod";> 
%xhtml-iframe.mod;



The document will then validate.
HTH
--
-David R
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RE: [WSG] Popups

[Ted Drake]

Hi David
I struggled with this as well. I tried the nicetitles javascript which allows 
you to put the information in the title tag and firefox will show the entire 
text. It also gives you the ability to style the "tooltip" window that pops up. 
We decided against it for our particular use. We have a form teaser on the left 
and some in the body of the page. The nicetitles window pops up relative to 
where the mouse is on the label tag. This forced me to put some extra distance 
in the nicetitle and it became too confusing.  However, if you have a form that 
is only shown in the main section and can control the layout better, you may 
want to try this technique. 
http://www.kryogenix.org/code/browser/nicetitle/

Do some searching around for nice titles and take a look at how others have 
modified the script. It has some great potential and is less intrusive than 
popup windows. I think Safari continues to show the tool tip in the status bar.

You could also do the javascript function to hide/show the information. This 
will hide the information for those with javascript disabled. This is something 
to consider.

Good luck
Ted
http://www.tdrake.net


-Original Message-
From: david [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 4:50 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Popups


Here's the situation:

I've got a form that users fill out in order to add something to a database...

Under each , there's the  element for each of the input 
elements, and that works fine

But because of the layout of the page, the  values are kept short, 
yes... there are title="" attributes, but IE and FF don't show the whole text

So I was thinking about doing what other sites do... and thats to put a "more 
info on this field" link, people click on it, and a popup appears with the 
minimum of browser UI chrome and jumps to the right section in the code

Ordinarily, this would be achieved with the help of JavaScript and 
Window.Open(), so much for cross-browser compatibility.

Then there's the target="_blank" anchor attribute, but this is disallowed by 
the DTD I'm using (XHTML1.1 w/ IFrame), that... plus it doesn't offer a way to 
get rid of browser UI elements.

Does anyone have any alternatives?

I was thinking of having a JavaScript "show/hide" function with the 
instructions and extra detail contained in a 
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Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?

[Kornel Lesinski]

If you want to use tables to lay out your forms (or anything else for  
that matter) then go for it.
The point is that it is not layout table. It has semantic value.
It's a kind of table that can have summary, caption, headers and
contains repeating sets of data.
hairs and getting semantic, isn't all information on a website really  
just data? So why can't present it all using tables?
Because it is not *tabular* data, unlike the practicular form that this
discussion is all about.
--
regards, Kornel Lesiński
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Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?

[Andy Budd]

Mike Foskett wrote:
Sorry Andy,
I'll have to agree to disagree.
Personally speaking, the use of a table to layout tabular input is as 
valid as using a table to layout tabular output.
and
Kornel Lesinski wrote:
I think that inputs in a table are ok.
This is tabular data, although not output, but input, but the 
structure certainly is tabular.
It seems to me that there is a lot of post rationalisation and spurious 
justification going on here. If you want to use tables to lay out your 
forms (or anything else for that matter) then go for it. It just seems 
odd to try and justify it in this manner.

I doubt very much if tables were created as a handy way of displaying 
forms even if we can post rationalise it now. I mean, if we're 
splitting hairs and getting semantic, isn't all information on a 
website really just data? So why can't present it all using tables?

Part of the point of using CSS for layout is it gives us the ability to 
separate the content from the presentation. Slapping a form into table 
cells doesn't allow this. It makes it much harder for instance to 
restyle the form so the labels appear above, rather than next to the 
form inputs.

It's like my girlfriend not wanting to order chips because they are 
fattening and then eating half on mine instead. The intention is good, 
but it doesn't make the calories go away :-)

Andy Budd
http://www.message.uk.com/
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Re: [WSG] Popups

[Rene Saarsoo]

Hi,
I think there are two main possibilities, both quite equal:
[1] Information on the same page
In that case you have link to the helping paragraph on the same page.
The onclick and other event handlers are added to the links with
javascript and also the help section (probably at the bottom of the
page) is being hidden only when scripting is available.
help
...

foo
foo is actually bar...
...

...

RE: [WSG] Popups

[Chris Taylor]

As I read your mail I was going to suggest the hidden DIV with a
show/hide toggle button, then there it was at the bottom. I try to stay
away from popup windows where I can. When I've needed to do this, and I
you have enough space on the page, I've shown the help in a
nicely-formatted (light yellow, grey border) box to the right of the
field, rather than below, then when people toggle the DIV it doesn't
break the flow of the form if they leave the DIV shown. Depends on the
amount of text you need show, I suppose.

Chris

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of david
Sent: 13 January 2005 12:50
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Popups

Here's the situation:

I've got a form that users fill out in order to add something to a
database...

Under each , there's the  element for each of the
input elements, and that works fine

But because of the layout of the page, the  values are kept
short, yes... there are title="" attributes, but IE and FF don't show
the whole text

So I was thinking about doing what other sites do... and thats to put a
"more info on this field" link, people click on it, and a popup appears
with the minimum of browser UI chrome and jumps to the right section in
the code

Ordinarily, this would be achieved with the help of JavaScript and
Window.Open(), so much for cross-browser compatibility.

Then there's the target="_blank" anchor attribute, but this is
disallowed by the DTD I'm using (XHTML1.1 w/ IFrame), that... plus it
doesn't offer a way to get rid of browser UI elements.

Does anyone have any alternatives?

I was thinking of having a JavaScript "show/hide" function with the
instructions and extra detail contained in a 
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Re: [WSG] Class -vs- ID

[Chris Stratford]

Wow thanks for the great responses people!
Love this list :)
Cheers, solved all my problems with that question :)
Paul Novitski wrote:
At 06:23 PM 1/12/05, Chris Stratford wrote:
I was asked for the first time yesterday, what the big difference and 
advantage to using an ID over a CLASS was...

Chris,
With regard to our intentions as scripters, what you and everyone else 
has said applies: ids are unique, classes are generic, and we should 
apply one or the other according to our understanding of the 
uniqueness of the object in the page structure.

At the same time, if I'm in an ambiguous situation in which I'm not 
sure whether to use id or class -- say because I've only got one 
instance of the object and I'm not sure whether there will ever be 
siblings -- I might choose id simply for reasons of speculative 
browser efficiency:

From a software mechanic's point of view, using id might be much 
faster than using class even if only one object is involved.  [This 
difference in speed might or might not be too slim to be humanly 
perceptible.]  I can easily imagine a browser resolving an id more 
quickly than a class.  Within its memory structure there's likely just 
one position reserved for a given id, so that, when an id is referred 
to and the browser searches its internal index for a match, it will 
stop at the first match.  In contrast, depending on how efficiently or 
inefficiently the browser has indexed objects by class, it may have to 
search the entire document object tree each time a classname is 
referenced to ensure that it catches all instances.  Even if it's 
created a length-tagged array of objects with a given class, it's 
probably going to require a bit more processing to walk an array of 
even one member than it will have done to match a single unique id.

But pay no mind: this kind of thinking is very Old School.  Why, way 
back in dem olden times, we had to pay attention to machine cycles 
because it really affected response time on a human scale.  Nowadays 
everything runs so fast we can just focus on how to do things right 
and not worry about how long it takes the computer to do it.

Mmm, hmm!
Paul
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--

Chris Stratford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.neester.com


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Re: [WSG] Possible Min-height issue

[Tom Livingston]

Hi all,
Thanks for the replies...
For those interested, I solved this by putting the graphic in question 
into the footer div and gave it a negative top margin equal to the 
height of the graphic. This lined up it's bottom with the bottom of the 
right side of the page like I wanted. I then put in some extra padding 
on the bottom of the copy/content div to keep it from going behind the 
neg. margined footer and poof!

Looks right in IE5.x/6, NS7 Win, Safari 1.2.4, FF 1.0 Mac.

Tom Livingston
Senior Multimedia Artist
Media Logic
mlinc.com
On Jan 12, 2005, at 4:49 PM, Tom Livingston wrote:


http://66.155.251.20/picotte.com/about/index.cfm

What I need is for the bottom of the 'grey bar with little squares' 
image below the copy to stay flush with the bottom of the blue on the 
right (below "Brokers Only") **when the content/copy is _not_ longer 
than the right, blue side of the page**. When it is, it should push 
down the page along with the footer, staying in place below the 
copy/content.

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RE: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?

[Mike Foskett]

Sorry Andy,

I'll have to agree to disagree.
Personally speaking, the use of a table to layout tabular input is as valid as 
using a table to layout tabular output.
Though I have no issue with other semantically correct methods previously 
outlined.
In most scenarios I prefer them.

The conceptual model I use is not from OOP but database manipulation "Sources & 
Sinks".
Where data input and data output are conceptually the positive and negative of 
the same thing.
This does not change solely because of using (X)HTML to describe them.

As far as the original issue is concerned.
I completely concur that a more usable and accessible solution is bite-sizing 
the input, thereby escaping the need for tabular input completely.
Though inevitably the final solution remains in the hands of the developer.


Warm regards

mike 2k:)2
 

   e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   site: http://www.webSemantics.co.uk

 




-Original Message-
From: Andy Budd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 13 January 2005 09:55
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?



On 12 Jan 2005, at 18:25, Mike Foskett wrote:

> Creating a method of output without an equivalent method of input
> seems more than oversight.

Forms are a means of input. Tables are a means of displaying tabular 
data.

Input and output mechanisms rarely have to be the same. I input data to 
a computer using a keyboard. It's output to screen.

> An input is a data object.
> Data objects stacked neatly by row and file are by definition tabular.

Sorry, but that's utter rot. If you're going to get all OOP on my ass, 
input would be a data object method, whereas the data it's self would 
be a property of the object. Completely different things!

You can come up with as many ways to justify the use of layout tables 
for forms, but it doesn't make it right!

Andy Budd

http://www.message.uk.com/

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Re: [WSG] Popups

[Simon Jessey]

Hi, David.
 
Why not use a DIV that contains all 
the extra information you wish to convey? Conceal the DIV with display:none, and 
then reveal the DIV when the user hovers over some sort of hotspot (use a 
lowercase white "i" on a blue circle - the universal symbol for 
"information").Simon Jessey


Business Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Personal Site:  http://jessey.net/
 
 
- Original Message - 

  From: 
  david 
  To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
  Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 7:50 
  AM
  Subject: [WSG] Popups
  
  So I was thinking about doing what other sites do... and thats to put 
  a "more info on this field" link, people click on it, and a popup appears with 
  the minimum of browser UI chrome and jumps to the right section in the 
  code
  Does anyone have any alternatives?

[WSG] Popups

[david]

Here's the situation:

I've got a form that users fill out in order to add something to a database...

Under each , there's the  element for each of the input 
elements, and that works fine

But because of the layout of the page, the  values are kept short, 
yes... there are title="" attributes, but IE and FF don't show the whole text

So I was thinking about doing what other sites do... and thats to put a "more 
info on this field" link, people click on it, and a popup appears with the 
minimum of browser UI chrome and jumps to the right section in the code

Ordinarily, this would be achieved with the help of JavaScript and 
Window.Open(), so much for cross-browser compatibility.

Then there's the target="_blank" anchor attribute, but this is disallowed by 
the DTD I'm using (XHTML1.1 w/ IFrame), that... plus it doesn't offer a way to 
get rid of browser UI elements.

Does anyone have any alternatives?

I was thinking of having a JavaScript "show/hide" function with the 
instructions and extra detail contained in a 
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Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?

[Kornel Lesinski]

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:01:38 +, Andy Budd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I think that inputs in a table are ok.
This is tabular data, although not output, but input, but the
structure certainly is tabular.
To read a table user needs to understand its structure
(associate content with headings, navigate).
The same skill is needed to fill a form in a table.
I think that it is quite easy to remember four fields
and their labels don't need to be repeated every time,
especially when there is possibility of hearing
all labels twice (+)
Bobby and other accessiblity tools are just stupid programs
and don't rely on their judgement, if you know better.
If you give good explanation of layout and purpose of that form-table
in table summary I think that is going to be quite accessible.
--
pozdrawiam, Kornel Lesiński
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Re: [WSG] iframe and HTML 401 strict.

[Bert Doorn]

berry wrote:
How come the  validator said that iframe is not a valid tag or can not be
used with HTML 4.01 strict? I remember  that I used in the past  iframe
without problem.
iframe is not defined in the HTML4.01 (or xhtml1.0) Strict DTD, 
so using it in a strict document is not valid.  Period.

Whether it has worked "without problem" is not an indication of 
whether it is valid. There are millions of web pages that use 
invalid code and still "work" in most browsers.

If you want to use iframes, use a Transitional or Frameset 
doctype.  For similar functionality in Strict, use object:

Text here for older browsers (perhaps a link to 
vide.htm)

HTH
--
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites
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Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?

[Andy Budd]

Pringle, Ron wrote:
I'm sorry, I'm coming onto this thread late, so I might be misinformed 
as to
what you're trying to accomplish. So you have a form with a variable 
number
of fields depending on how many travelers are to be insured, correct? 
With a
maximum of 50?
Ah, now I understand what Ted is trying to do.
Frankly, there is not going to be an easy way of doing this, 
regardless of
the accessibility issues. Thats a LOT of data to enter.

I would almost think you'd want to deal with each traveler separately, 
one
at a time, in some sort of paged form. For instance, if I fill out the
initial part of the form and indicate 5 travelers to be insured, the 
form
would be submitted, the initial form fields temporarily stored, and 
then the
next form presented with fields for traveler 1. Once that is filled and
submitted, on to traveler two.
Absolutely. Doing it any other way would be a usability nightmare.
In that case, your form is broken into smaller chunks and leaving the 
labels
on each field would be essential and not even an issue.
Exactly
This would seem to make it easier for both your sighted users and 
visually
impaired users.

My experience with forms has been that it is better to progressively 
present
large forms (along with an appropriate indication of where in the 
process
the user is). I would think that approach would increase your 
completion
percentage as opposed to presenting a huge form with up to 50 name, 
age,
etc. fields to be filled out at once.
Couldn't agree more. A huge form as described would scare the living 
daylights out of most people and would be ripe for errors. Much better 
to break these things down into easier to deal with chunks. Sounds like 
the problem is with Ted's form design and the accessibility 
issue/tables issue is just a symptom. Always better to treat the cause 
rather than the symptoms.

Andy Budd
http://www.message.uk.com/
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Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?

[Andy Budd]

Ted Drake wrote:
I'm not one to say screw accessibility, I need my pages to look purty,
but the point of my question is: we may have 30 to 50 people
registering. If I include a label for each fieldset, the page is going
to be bulky and possibly less usable for those with sight. A table 
would
make life easy, but making life easy isn't justification enough to do 
it
wrong. I'd really like to make life easy and give some accessibility in
the process. Having 50 labels that say age1, age2, age2..age50 for the
50 age inputs doesn't seem appropriate for the average user.

I have to admit that I'm confused by what exactly your doing. Maybe 
posting up your form would help. It sounds like you're saying that 
you're creating one massive form intended to take the input of 50 
people which sounds like madness. Why not just create a form that takes 
the input from one person at a time like most forms do?

Andy Budd
http://www.message.uk.com/
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Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?

[Andy Budd]

On 12 Jan 2005, at 18:25, Mike Foskett wrote:
Creating a method of output without an equivalent method of input 
seems more than oversight.
Forms are a means of input. Tables are a means of displaying tabular 
data.

Input and output mechanisms rarely have to be the same. I input data to 
a computer using a keyboard. It's output to screen.

An input is a data object.
Data objects stacked neatly by row and file are by definition tabular.
Sorry, but that's utter rot. If you're going to get all OOP on my ass, 
input would be a data object method, whereas the data it's self would 
be a property of the object. Completely different things!

You can come up with as many ways to justify the use of layout tables 
for forms, but it doesn't make it right!

Andy Budd
http://www.message.uk.com/
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RE: [WSG] the propsed table/form - - was: Can I use a table in a form?

[Mike Foskett]

Ted,

>From a screen reader point of view the user has to have titles switched on 
>which is not too much to ask.
Personally I'd shorten the title, it does not need to say "Enter the", keep 
them as brief as possible to the point of being curt.
Otherwise you can imagine the amount of excess noise that is generated.

Alt attributes have no place here.
Title attributes are better than nothing.
Labels, even hidden, would best suit the purpose.

Although a few arguments have arisen here over the exact semantics to use.
There are always more than one correct solution, usually dependent on where 
your mindset came from.

The labelling you've implemented is not really much help it only labels the 
first row as the id's are unique.
Try this instead:

  
Traveler #
First Name
Last Name
Age
  

Along with the briefest of titles on each input.

If your aim is to produce code to WAI priorities above level A then you will 
need to add labels to each input.
As previously mentioned they do not have to be visible though do not use 
display:none or visibility:hidden.
There are other techniques which do work well.


Good luck


mike 2k:)2
 

   e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   site: http://www.webSemantics.co.uk

 


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