Re: [WSG] RE: Hot Topic: HTML design

[Alan Gutierrez]

* Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005-08-16 00:12]:
> Great topic! 
> 
> I had some experience using xml / xslt earlier this year. I was
> fiddling with w3schools xslt tutorial which uses client-side xslt
> transformation and I finally saw what all the xml fuss was about.
> The content could be marked up meaningfully (according to the
> actual data) then xslt could lay out the content and css could
> style it.

> It was a real 'wow' moment as the xml penny finally dropped - a
> total separation of content and presentation, with no server-side
> shenanigans needed to convert the xml content. As soon as there is
> consistent browser support for client side xslt, we'll be able to
> deliver pure xml to the client and have it apply style and layout
> as the / browser chooses. True accessibility and universality. The
> web equivalent of 'Zen' ;)

There are plenty of places to put XSLT. It can be on the
browser, or it can be automated. You can use XSLT to cull XML
documents for links, for example. Or you can separate your
presentation on the server side, based on browser detection.

Which is why I'm interested in creating a better abstraction of
the structure of blog and wiki entries. With XML pipelines, I
can produce XHTML, RSS, text, PDF, or statitical views, like
links only, tables of contents, etc.

There are plenty of applications for XSLT, prior to it's
universal availability on the client side.

> In my experience it's not the content that's the problem - it's
> the outlying structure (header, footer, nav, branding) that gets
> in the way of true 'semanticity' (look Ma - I done made me up a
> new word!). If we had a way (no, not frames) to semantically
> separate the nav / branding fluff from the actual core content we
> would be set.

Here's an issue that I have a hard time getting away from...

I've cooked up an abstraction like so:


  Alan's Blogometer
  

  Syndicate (XML)
  http://www.technorati.com/profile/agutier";>Technorati
Profile
  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED]

  
  

  Alan's Blogometer - Recent


  

  
What I Had For Lunch
2005/08/15 12:31:30
  
  
I had a cheese sandwich. Yummy!
  
  
permalink
comment
  

  

  


Quite abstract. No style information, merely conceptual. This isn't
the markup I used to write my blog either, that's far more compact.

The problem I face with this is that one generally cares about the
relative position of  content.

On most web pages, it's important to have navigation at a certian
visibility level. A gutter is a content area, not a navigation area,
I've decided. There you'll put recent entry links, Blog Ads or Ads
by Google, your blog roll, your del.icio.us links, etc.

But the format above is still another abstraction away from a blog
entry which looks like so:


  
What I Had For Lunch
I had a cheese sandwich. Yummy!
  


I transform blog.xml -> document.xml -> blogometer/index.html
  
I'm able to reuse XSLT along the way.

Then of course, I'm here to learn more about XML/XHTML/CSS so that
my final blogometer/index.html can be standards compliant, and I can
have even more control over presentation.

Brain dump. Toughts?

--
Alan Gutierrez - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- http://engrm.com/blogometer/index.html
- http://engrm.com/blogometer/rss.2.0.xml
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Re: [WSG] Hot Topic: HTML design [was Reason for leaving]

[Alan Gutierrez]

* Terrence Wood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005-08-15 23:52]:
> 
> Patrick Lauke wrote:
> >Well folks, here's a crazy idea: let's start some good
> >discussions on the principles of web standards then.
> >We need a bit of a catalyst to get things started. Any hot
> >topics anybody's got at the moment?
> 
> With the recent departure of a member who found this forum boring I 
> thought I'd open up a discussion on html design.
> 
> First, let me explain what I mean by html design.
> 
> One of the tenets of web standards design is the separation of
> content and presentation. The benefits of this are often explained
> in terms of easy site updates, the ability to change the visual
> design by simply updating the CSS, and improved accessibility. All
> good stuff, and increasingly (as we know), web sites are produced
> where content is on one file (html) and the presentation is in
> another (CSS)
> 
> Another idea related to web standards is that of semantic markup,
> where markup is used to give the document structure - after all,
> html is a structural language - and the ultimate goal is to create
> a web that is usable by both machines (semantic web) and people.
> 
> So, when I use the term html design I am talking about how a web
> page is marked up, not only in terms of separating presentation
> and content, but how the document appears without reference to the
> visual design.

> By and large html design is not something happening in practice.
> Documents are marked up, and sometimes even the content refers to,
> the visual design. Document elements (both the tag and
> 'information chunk' variety) are placed in the source order
> according to how easy they are to position in the current visual
> design.

> Arguably, we need better browsers that can make the distinction
> between document content, navigation, and metadata, but isn't it
> about time we markup document's for the content without refering
> to the visual design, and separate out the navigation and other
> stuff a bit more?

I'll bite. I'm going to posit a similar question on XML-DEV.

I'm working on my own blogging software. While I finish my
editor interface, I'm typing out the XML by hand, making up a
document format as I go along. Existing formats, like DocBook
struck me as overkill, and I wanted something I copy type.

For the most part, there's a one to one mapping between my
markup and HTML, with one or two important distinctions.

An example of this is the quote. When I quote someone on my blog
I need more than formatting. I need to give credit and link.

Rather than:


...virtue has never been as respectable as money.


Thus:

http://www.twainquotes.com/Virtue.html";>
  ...virtue has never been as respectable as money.


A quote is rendered in my blog as so:

http://engrm.com/blogometer/2005/08/05/link-positive.html

Quoting is important in blogging, as you'll note in my blog
posting, the person I quoted returned to comment. It's part of
the social aspect of social networking.

In my blogging interface, a quote editor is going to be a
special widget. For blogging quoting and linking are currency.

--
Alan Gutierrez - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- http://engrm.com/blogometer/index.html
- http://engrm.com/blogometer/rss.2.0.xml
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[WSG] RE: Hot Topic: HTML design

[Rei Paki]

PaulSeparating core content from other structural content was constantly bugging me until I started to use PHP includes. This works particularly well for smaller sites.The great thing about this method is the ability to place all elements (such as navigation, headers, footers, etc) in separate files away from the individual page's unique content. At the time the page is requested from the server, the elements are combined and draw the page style from the CSS file you specify.This way, you get the benefit of easy updates (as you only change one file), as well as the separation of design (CSS) and 'structural content' from the page's unique content. Unfortunately for the most part we're stuck with the limitations of HTML until the most popular browser starts being a bit more accommodating.Apologies for the previous reply. Rei Paki

[WSG] RE: Hot Topic: HTML design

[Rei Paki]

Great topic!

I had some experience using xml / xslt earlier this year. I was  
fiddling with w3schools xslt tutorial which uses client-side xslt  
transformation and I finally saw what all the xml fuss was about. The  
content could be marked up meaningfully (according to the actual  
data) then xslt could lay out the content and css could style it.


It was a real 'wow' moment as the xml penny finally dropped - a total  
separation of content and presentation, with no server-side  
shenanigans needed to convert the xml content. As soon as there is  
consistent browser support for client side xslt, we'll be able to  
deliver pure xml to the client and have it apply style and layout as  
the / browser chooses. True accessibility and universality. The web  
equivalent of 'Zen' ;)


In my experience it's not the content that's the problem - it's the  
outlying structure (header, footer, nav, branding) that gets in the  
way of true 'semanticity' (look Ma - I done made me up a new word!).  
If we had a way (no, not frames) to semantically separate the nav /  
branding fluff from the actual core content we would be set.


Thoughts welcome,

Paul
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[WSG] RE: Hot Topic: HTML design

[Paul Bennett]

Great topic! 

I had some experience using xml / xslt earlier this year. I was fiddling with 
w3schools xslt tutorial which uses client-side xslt transformation and I 
finally saw what all the xml fuss was about. The content could be marked up 
meaningfully (according to the actual data) then xslt could lay out the content 
and css could style it.

It was a real 'wow' moment as the xml penny finally dropped - a total 
separation of content and presentation, with no server-side shenanigans needed 
to convert the xml content. As soon as there is consistent browser support for 
client side xslt, we'll be able to deliver pure xml to the client and have it 
apply style and layout as the / browser chooses. True accessibility and 
universality. The web equivalent of 'Zen' ;)

In my experience it's not the content that's the problem - it's the outlying 
structure (header, footer, nav, branding) that gets in the way of true 
'semanticity' (look Ma - I done made me up a new word!). If we had a way (no, 
not frames) to semantically separate the nav / branding fluff from the actual 
core content we would be set.

Thoughts welcome,

Paul 
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[WSG] Hot Topic: HTML design [was Reason for leaving]

[Terrence Wood]

Patrick Lauke wrote:

Well folks, here's a crazy idea: let's start some good
discussions on the principles of web standards then.
We need a bit of a catalyst to get things started. Any hot
topics anybody's got at the moment?


With the recent departure of a member who found this forum boring I 
thought I'd open up a discussion on html design.


First, let me explain what I mean by html design.

One of the tenets of web standards design is the separation of content 
and presentation. The benefits of this are often explained in terms of 
easy site updates, the ability to change the visual design by simply 
updating the CSS, and improved accessibility. All good stuff, and 
increasingly (as we know), web sites are produced where content is on 
one file (html) and the presentation is in another (CSS)


Another idea related to web standards is that of semantic markup, where 
markup is used to give the document structure - after all, html is a 
structural language - and the ultimate goal is to create a web that is 
usable by both machines (semantic web) and people.


So, when I use the term html design I am talking about how a web page 
is marked up, not only in terms of separating presentation and content, 
but how the document appears without reference to the visual design.


By and large html design is not something happening in practice. 
Documents are marked up, and sometimes even the content refers to, the 
visual design. Document elements (both the tag and 'information chunk' 
variety) are placed in the source order according to how easy they are 
to position in the current visual design.


Arguably, we need better browsers that can make the distinction between 
document content, navigation, and metadata, but isn't it about time we 
markup document's for the content without refering to the visual 
design, and separate out the navigation and other stuff a bit more?


kind regards
Terrence Wood.


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Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy

[Jan Brasna]

If I'm sure the PDF is intended for downloading, not for direct viewing 
in browser I force its download with headers (like Content-Type: 
application/x-download etc.)


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Re: [WSG] Screen readers, flash, DOM

[Jan Brasna]

Sorry, I didn't mean to be patronising.


Oh, I didn't feel it this way, I really appreciate it, I'm sorry if it 
sounded ungrateful.



I've no idea if that's typical. I was under the impression that IE
comes with the Flash plugin installed by default, but I don't know
that for sure. I've never intentionally installed the Flash plugin,
but it's there in IE.


Ah, that's true, or at leas AFAIK.


Although it would be interesting to have data on the numbers of people
using assistive technology that also have the Flash plugin installed,
if it turned out that only a small percentage installed Flash, it
wouldn't detract me from wanting to embed Flash accessibly.


Well, I don't think it detracts me. I'm only trying to avoid an extra 
markup. It might sound bad, but I'm replacing an  with the flash 
conent by the UFO. So I just want to avoid the situation, that an user 
of a screen reader (based on eg. IE, having flash an JS on - passing UFO 
checks) gets the useful  element (for him, when he could not see the 
visual presentation of its content provided in the flash object) removed 
and replaced by something he can't read.


Thanks for input!

--
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Re: [WSG] Applying css styles to tag

[Jan Brasna]

any reference on css styling the  tag, and more specifically,
how various browsers will render styles applied to ?


Howdy. The styling is almost the same as the styling of  is - with 
the XML way of parsing XHTML files there's no more the magic behavior of 
 element like stretching to fill the viewport etc., so the only 
way to style the bakground etc. of the whote viewport is via .
(http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/03/19/dive-into-xml.html, 
http://www.mozilla.org/docs/web-developer/faq.html#xhtmldiff)


The only catch is (surprise?) in IE. If you assign a background to both 
 and , it gets screwed up. Compare these two examples in IE 
and modern browser:

http://www.janbrasna.com/pub/pozadi01.htm
http://www.janbrasna.com/pub/pozadi02.htm

--
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Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy

[heretic]

Hi,

> We've had a discussion at work about pdf documents and hijacking the user's
> browser / making it more user-friendly.  What is the general feeling towards
> having pdf and other non-html documents open in a new window? 

I view PDF, .MS Office documents etc as *non web content*. That is,
they are not web pages and should not load in the browser as though
they were web pages. However this view is mostly gut feel rather than
based on any kind of statistics on what users think :)

So anyway, in order of preference my approach to PDF is this:
1) Don't use PDF in the first place, if at all possible.
2) If you do use PDF, it's critical that the link is clearly marked as a PDF. 
3) I choose between new window/same window based on context
(particularly what I know about the target audience). But I do lean
towards new windows.

The reasons for choosing new window:
1) In IE, the PDF will hijack the browser and - very slowly - attempt
to load the PDF content inside the frame. It won't launch a separate
Acrobat window with the PDF, as it should.
2) You only get a cut-down set of interface options when trying to
view the PDF within IE.
3) In my experience there's a reasonable risk that the IE/Acrobat/PDF
mashup will break and crash the window. You lose the web page as well.
4) No matter what browser, as I said before PDFs are separate from the
originating web content and should get a separate window.

When launching any new window, I favour a simple target="_blank" or
the ALA method if users would benefit from more detailed control of
the popup (http://www.alistapart.com/articles/popuplinks/).

Basically my view there is that scripting should enhance the
experience but the page should remain functional without it.
Preferably it should function in much the same way, which is usually
not possible but in this case it's entirely within our grasp.

cheers,

h

-- 
--- 
--- The future has arrived; it's just not 
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson
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Re: [WSG] Reason for leaving

[heretic]

> Are the disabed really the main priority when it comes to web
> standards? 

Not exactly, they're just one of many groups that benefit. They happen
to benefit quite a lot, of course.. :)

Standards benefit pretty much everyone, whether they realise it or
not. Standards compliant sites are generally (not always) more
lightweight (faster for the user), easier to update, rank better in
search engines etc. There's also the consideration of making your
sites future-robust (I never say future *proof* :)). Stick to
standards and you have a better chance that they'll still work in the
next version of browser X.

If nothing else, you - as in the developer - should be a priority for
going with standards, since it'll be you doing updates and fixing bugs
:)

> Is there really that many disabled internet users? I would like to know. :)

Well I've often said that search engines are blind, deaf, mobility
impaired users with scripting and plugins turned off
(http://weblog.200ok.com.au/2005/06/search-engine-optimisation-is-new.html).
So there are a couple of disabled users like Google that you probably
want to cater to in some way :)

More directly on your question though, there's enough out there in
America alone that Microsoft decided they could make money from them.
M$ commissioned a study which showed 57% of all computer users are
likely to benefit in some way from "accessible technology"
(http://www.microsoft.com/enable/research/).

Figures vary, but they generally show a significant number of either
"disabled" or "people who benefit". With an ageing population in many
countries, simple things like being able to resize text will become
more important.

cheers,

h

-- 
--- 
--- The future has arrived; it's just not 
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson
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Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy

[Ben Ward]

On the whole, I'm very much in the 'user decide' camp. However, there
is some argument for opening PDFs and other
'not-normally-browser-native' media types in new windows (citing the
confusing ways in which plug ins behave).

Personally, I like everything to download and be opened by a native
application (especially PDFs!), but for coping with the default
behaviour of opening the in-browser plug-in, I /might/ give
consideration to new windows.

The best option I can think of a 1am is to clearly offer a second
'open in new window' link, probably inserted onload using script. That
way, the user can choose how to open it and if they pick the 'open'
link that sits next to an 'open in new window' link, they are given
some hint that the document will open in the SAME window, and thus get
around some of the back button/close button confusion mentioned above.


The other 'new window' situation I can think of relates to some 'web
applications'. For example, on the site I maintain, we have a Reseller
Locator that was designed with minimal header and footer to reduce
clutter. Although a legacy app (so it might not be designed this way
if we did it again) in this case it aids the usability of the
application to have the reduced interface.

However, this then removes a lot site navigation, so it makes more
sense to open it in a new window. The critical, REALLY REALLY
important thing I draw attention to when you have a system that (for
whatever reason) is better suited to a new window: *make it as obvious
as you can*.

  1) Add the new window behaviour to the link using script *after*
load. Have it open in the same, default window using a standard
hyperlink without script, so as not to lock out customised browser
configurations or scriptless fringe browsers.
  2) Define a default size for the app! Obviously allow it to be
resizeable, but if a new browser window appears that has exactly the
same dimensions as the 'primary' window it was spawned from, the user
is quite unlikely to twig that this is a different window at all.
They'll be confused when they can't click 'back' to return to the
original page.
If, however, you give the child window a different (ideally smaller)
size, then it will stand out from the main browser and the user won't
be as confused when wanting to return to the first page.

Still bad practice, I think, but those two rules are absolutely
non-negotiable for me when making the best of an imperfect situation!

Ben
http://ben-ward.co.uk
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Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy

[Jan Brasna]

I use this: onclick="window.open(this.href); return false;" instead of 
target="_blank".


+1 for onclick="return !window.open(this.href)" - successfully tested 
with some blockers etc. - better than returnig false everytime (nothing 
happens then if JS is enabled but the window can't be opened).


Or maybe onclick="this.taget='_blank'" ?


By replacing the target with the script, we are bypassing the issue of 
screenreaders and portable devices getting confused with multiple windows.


No, we're just moving the behavior to its appropriate place - the 
scipting. The UA can then have those features disabled, or ask the user 
etc., that's fine. It only shouldn't be in the document itself, where it 
does not belong. The usage certailny has to be well considered...


--
Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com
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[WSG] Applying css styles to tag

[Andrew Ivin]

Hi all,

I've been looking around this list, W3C and other online sources, but
can't find any info on applying styles to the  tag.

I apologise if this has been covered on this list before, but is there
any reference on css styling the  tag, and more specifically,
how various browsers will render styles applied to ?

Thanks in anticipation.


-- 
Andrew
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy

[Thierry Koblentz]

Gez Lemon wrote:
> Hi Thierry,
> 
>> This short script doesn't name the window, so it should spawn
>> multiple popups.
>> I'd use: onclick="window.open(this.href,'myPopup'); return false;"
>> As a side note, some blockers kill these popups.
> 
> The window.open function returns true if successful, otherwise false.
> You could use the return value to determine whether or not you want to
> stop the href attribute being honoured to cater for blockers.

Hi Gez,
I thought we had that discussion already ;)

Best regards,
Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com
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Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy

[Andy Kirkwood | Motive]

Title: Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows
philosophy


Hi there,

Could be that this discussion has drifted toward usability rather
than accessibility.

Accessibility considerations would be ensuring that users are
advised of what will happened when they activate the link, either than
the document would be opened in a new window, or that it will be
downloaded. Also that opening a new window does not adversely effect
users accessing a website with assistive technologies (screen readers,
etc.).

As to user expectation, it all depends on context. Some forms of
content, such as blogs and forums are 'riddled' with pop-up windows,
users exposed to such content quickly become familiar with
pop-ups.

As an interface design philosophy, ceding control to the user is
your best bet. (This also extends to enabling text to be resized,
fluid/elastic layout, etc.). In the case of pop-ups, only opening
documents in new windows prevents an experienced user from controlling
the browser behaviour. Indicating that a link will open in a new
window is a good start, providing both a popup and non-popup link may
be safer (see below).

As an aside, some browsers have difficulty opening documents in
new windows, when the document is a not a recognised content type. As
a document like a PDF is not either a 'webpage' or inline content
(such as a GIF or JPEG), the browser may only open a blank window
(without downloading the document).

REFERENCES
Popup windows (Motive Glossary)
Philosophy. Common reasons for using pop-ups, etc.
< http://www.motive.co.nz/glossary/popup.php >

WAI Checkpoint 10.1
Until user agents allow users to turn off spawned windows, do not
cause pop-ups or other windows to appear and do not change the current
window without informing the user.
< http://www.w3.org/WAI/wcag-curric/sam77-0.htm >


So, I told
my co-workers that I would throw this out to the standards community. 
Try to ignore any bias I may have. I would appreciate any honest
feedback about whether we should open new windows for .pdf, .doc,
.ppt, xls, .visio, or .whatever.

Cheers,

-- 

Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director

Motive | web.design.integrity
http://www.motive.co.nz
ph: (04) 3 800 800  fx: (04) 970 9693
mob: 021 369 693
93 Rintoul St, Newtown
PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand

Re: [WSG] Q: cross browser submit button image replacement

[Rex Chung]

>background-image, text-indent=-1000em for submit
this works for all browsers except onmouseover doesnt seem to work for IE.


On 8/15/05, Tatham Oddie (Fuel Advance) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Rex,
> 
> Safari won't let you style at all.
> 
> Take a look at what I did on www.whatcanido.com.au for the search fields
> top-left.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Tatham Oddie
> Fuel Advance - Ignite Your Idea
> www.fueladvance.com
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Rex Chung
> Sent: Monday, 15 August 2005 9:16 PM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: [WSG] Q: cross browser submit button image replacement
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Anyone know what is the best practise for image replacement with
> rollover states for submit buttons.
> 
> I tried adding onmouseover class change javascript with:
> 1. background image for 
> but - doesnt work for safari, value attribute shows up
> 
> 2. text-indent=-1000em for submit
> but onmouseover doesnt seem to work for IE.
> 
> I haven't found a good solution for cross browser capability with
> rollover states.
> 
> Thanks!
> Rex.
> **
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Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy

[Gez Lemon]

Hi Thierry,

> This short script doesn't name the window, so it should spawn multiple
> popups.
> I'd use: onclick="window.open(this.href,'myPopup'); return false;"
> As a side note, some blockers kill these popups.

The window.open function returns true if successful, otherwise false.
You could use the return value to determine whether or not you want to
stop the href attribute being honoured to cater for blockers.

onclick="return !window.open(this.href);"

Best regards,

Gez

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Re: [WSG] Screen readers, flash, DOM

[Gez Lemon]

Hi Jan,

On 15/08/05, Jan Brasna <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Some screen readers sit on top of browsers like IE. If IE has Flash
> > embedded in it, and the Flash has been made accessible (see
> > ), then it's exposed to the
> > screen reader. The reason that screen readers should have access to
> > Flash is that developers sometimes put important information in Flash
> > movies, and people using screen readers should have access to it.
> 
> I'm aware of all of this, I wasn't just sure whether those visitors
> usually install the flash plgugin.

Sorry, I didn't mean to be patronising. It's an interesting question,
but one that I have no data on. I only know two people that use screen
readers, and both are very technical. They have Flash installed, but
I've no idea if that's typical. I was under the impression that IE
comes with the Flash plugin installed by default, but I don't know
that for sure. I've never intentionally installed the Flash plugin,
but it's there in IE.

Although it would be interesting to have data on the numbers of people
using assistive technology that also have the Flash plugin installed,
if it turned out that only a small percentage installed Flash, it
wouldn't detract me from wanting to embed Flash accessibly.

Another thing that I'm sure you're aware of is that Flash could never
truly be considered accessible, as it relies on Microsoft Active
Accessibility (MSAA) and IE to expose the accessibility features. This
is obviously better than nothing at all, but falls a long way short of
interoperability. WCAG 2.0 will introduce the concept of a baseline,
but if people start defining baselines of, "Best viewed in IE on a
Windows Operating System", it will be just like 1997 all over again.

Best regards,

Gez 

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Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy

[Thierry Koblentz]

> I fall in line with Gary.

I do to, it just makes sense

> I use this: onclick="window.open(this.href); return false;" instead of
> target="_blank".

This short script doesn't name the window, so it should spawn multiple
popups.
I'd use: onclick="window.open(this.href,'myPopup'); return false;"
As a side note, some blockers kill these popups.

> Jeremy Keith recently spoke about using the class in the link to
> target a javascript to add the behavior, leaving a nice, clean link.

One can apply the behavior without any attribute other than "href"
http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/popups.asp


Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com

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Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy

[standards]

I completely concur with Gary as I have these types of files open in a new 
window for the very
reasons he stated. Additionally, I've had users report that they close the 
window thinking that
they're exiting the document, but they're actually closing the browser.

Respectfully,
Mario

> There is a flip-side to the "no new window" recommendation..
>  Many of our users are very computer illiterate and giving them too many
> options confuses them.
>  We do open our PDF documents in a new window and never have any complaints
> about it.
>  We DO get complaints, though, when things are too hard to use or if the
> page they were on "disappars" because we opened a "document" in that same  
> window or if the file
> downloaded and they can't find it (happened regularly  before we launched the 
> PDF in another
> window).
>  We also get complaints from Mac users for similar reasons (because,
> apparently, the default behaviours that have sometimes been set up always  
> just download files
> to one place and dont give the user an option of saying  where they want the 
> file - and then
> they can't find it).
>  I'm all for web-standards - but when a user base clearly has problems in
> dealing with a move to a "standard" then I would prefer to cater for my user  
> base over the
> standard. There are always "exceptions" to every rule.
>  Regards,
> Gary
>
>
>  On 8/16/05, Damian Sweeney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Ted,
>>
>> I would say let the user decide. Wherever possible I try to provide enough 
>> information in the
>> link itself so that the user knows what to expect and can proceed as they 
>> wish. Many people
>> will set up their browser to deal with different file types according to 
>> their preference
>> (open the document in the browser, open it in the application, download the 
>> file). Opening in
>> a new window removes user choice. By providing a plain link you give users 
>> the option that you
>> use of `right-click - open in new window`. How do I choose to open a 
>> new-window-link in the
>> current window if that is my preference?
>>
>> The only time I open links (to web pages) in a new window is when I have to 
>> place a link
>> inside someone else's frame and I warn the user that I'm doing it. I 
>> wouldn't use a new window
>> for the downloadable documents you are referring to.
>>
>> Unexpected pdfs are annoying, especially for low-bandwidth users. So, I 
>> would recommend
>> something like:
>>
>> Some stuff (pdf format, 200kb)
>>
>> Include all the info in the link, if you can, for people who only read the 
>> links.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Damian
>>
>> > Hi All
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > We've had a discussion at work about pdf documents and hijacking the
>> user's
>> > browser / making it more user-friendly. What is the general feeling
>> towards
>> > having pdf and other non-html documents open in a new window?
>> >
>> >
>> --
>> Damian Sweeney
>> Learning Skills Adviser (online)
>> Language and Learning Skills Unit
>> Instructional Designer, AIRport Project
>> Equity, Language and Learning Programs
>> University of Melbourne
>> 723 Swanston St
>> Parkville 3010
>> www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/
>> www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/
>> airport.unimelb.edu.au/ 
>> ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039
>>
>> This email and any attachments may contain personal information or 
>> information that is
>> otherwise confidential or the subject of
>> copyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is 
>> prohibited. The
>> University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from 
>> viruses or
>> defects. Please check any
>> attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this email is 
>> received in error
>> please delete it and notify us by return email or by phoning (03) 8344 9370.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> **
>> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
>>
>> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
>> **
>>



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RE: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy

[Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]]

We have tested sites with both different behaviours on users and in most
cases if the PDF would open in the same window the inexperienced users would
accidentally close the window and as a result lose the website they were
working with. 

It seems to be already in the users' minds that a different page (e.g. PDF
file or a third-party website) will open in a new window. So, very often
without even thinking much about it they close the window once they are
done. And to lose your point in a website is very frustrating, in particular
for inexperienced users: they have to start all over again, open a new
browser window, might even have to search in Google for the site again and
find their prior position in your website. 

I wish it was different and we could train the users to learn to use their
options, but I think this will be very difficult. Opening links in new
browser windows has been around for such a long time, most users have
learned to accept it as a standard and in fact rely on this happening. 

So for my perspective: definitely open PDFs and other such documents in new
windows (allows modem users to stop the download at any time and prevents
users from accidentally closing their current website). 

Cheers,

Andreas.




From: Drake, Ted C. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, 16 August 2005 2:24 AM
To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org'
Subject: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy



Hi All

 

We've had a discussion at work about pdf documents and hijacking the
user's browser / making it more user-friendly.  What is the general feeling
towards having pdf and other non-html documents open in a new window?

 

I personally find it annoying to open a pdf document in the native
window and having to wait for the reader to load. I usually right-click and
open in a new window.  However, I know some people expect that to happen and
could lose their place if a bunch of windows are opened.  I would use the
javascript approach to avoid using target="_blank". This should avoid the
complications of having PDA devices or screen readers attempting to open
multiple windows.

 

So, I told my co-workers that I would throw this out to the
standards community.  Try to ignore any bias I may have. I would appreciate
any honest feedback about whether we should open new windows for .pdf, .doc,
.ppt, xls, .visio, or .whatever.

 

Thanks

 

 

Ted Drake

Web & Collaboration Services
Science Applications International Corporation
858.826.3856 / 858.826.3336 (fax)

 



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RE: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy

[Paul Bennett]

I'm not familiar with it being a 'web standard' not to open a new window for a 
link. Can someone enlighten me?

Paul
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RE: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy

[Drake, Ted C.]

I fall in line with Gary.

I'm savvy enough to right-click on
pdf links but when I forget to do it, I'm aggrevated by the browser
having to load the reader software. I would be happy to have it open a new
window.  

 

This is for an intranet site, but I think
the discussion is valid for all web sites. 

 

I use this: 
return false;" instead of target="_blank".

 

Jeremy Keith recently spoke about using
the class in the link to target a _javascript_ to add the behavior, leaving a
nice, clean link.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong. By
replacing the target with the script, we are bypassing the issue of
screenreaders and portable devices getting confused with multiple windows.

 

Ted

 

 









From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary Menzel
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 3:18
PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] accessibility -
opening new windows philosophy



 



There is a flip-side to the "no new window"
recommendation..





 





Many of our users are very computer illiterate and giving them too many
options confuses them.





 





We do open our PDF documents in a new window and never have any
complaints about it.





 





We DO get complaints, though, when things are too hard to use or if the
page they were on "disappars" because we opened a
"document" in that same window or if the file downloaded and they
can't find it (happened regularly before we launched the PDF in another
window). 





 





We also get complaints from Mac users for similar reasons (because,
apparently, the default behaviours that have sometimes been set up always just
download files to one place and dont give the user an option of saying where
they want the file - and then they can't find it). 





 





I'm all for web-standards - but when a user base clearly has problems
in dealing with a move to a "standard" then I would prefer to cater
for my user base over the standard.  There are always
"exceptions" to every rule. 





 





Regards,





Gary







 





On 8/16/05, Damian
Sweeney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote: 

Hi Ted,

I would say let the user decide. Wherever possible I try to provide enough
information in the link itself so that the user knows what to expect and 
can proceed as they wish. Many people will set up their browser to deal
with different file types according to their preference (open the document
in the browser, open it in the application, download the file). Opening in 
a new window removes user choice. By providing a plain link you give users
the option that you use of `right-click - open in new window`. How do I
choose to open a new-window-link in the current window if that is my 
preference?

The only time I open links (to web pages) in a new window is when I have
to place a link inside someone else's frame and I warn the user that I'm
doing it. I wouldn't use a new window for the downloadable documents you 
are referring to.

Unexpected pdfs are annoying, especially for low-bandwidth users. So, I
would recommend something like:




Include all the info in the link, if you can, for people who only read the
links.

Cheers,

Damian

> Hi All
>
>
>
> We've had a discussion at work about pdf documents and hijacking the 
user's
> browser / making it more user-friendly.  What is the general
feeling
towards
> having pdf and other non-html documents open in a new window?
>
>
--
Damian Sweeney
Learning Skills Adviser (online) 
Language and Learning Skills Unit
Instructional Designer, AIRport Project
Equity, Language and Learning Programs
University of Melbourne
723 Swanston St
Parkville 3010
www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/
www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/
airport.unimelb.edu.au/
ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039 

This email and any attachments may contain personal information or
information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of
copyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part
of  it
is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or  any

attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any
attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this
email is received in error please delete it and notify us by
return  email
or by phoning (03) 8344 9370. 






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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**



 

Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy

[Gary Menzel]

There is a flip-side to the "no new window" recommendation..
 
Many of our users are very computer illiterate and giving them too many options confuses them.
 
We do open our PDF documents in a new window and never have any complaints about it.
 
We DO get complaints, though, when things are too hard to use or if the page they were on "disappars" because we opened a "document" in that same window or if the file downloaded and they can't find it (happened regularly before we launched the PDF in another window).

 
We also get complaints from Mac users for similar reasons (because, apparently, the default behaviours that have sometimes been set up always just download files to one place and dont give the user an option of saying where they want the file - and then they can't find it).

 
I'm all for web-standards - but when a user base clearly has problems in dealing with a move to a "standard" then I would prefer to cater for my user base over the standard.  There are always "exceptions" to every rule.

 
Regards,
Gary
 
On 8/16/05, Damian Sweeney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Ted,I would say let the user decide. Wherever possible I try to provide enoughinformation in the link itself so that the user knows what to expect and
can proceed as they wish. Many people will set up their browser to dealwith different file types according to their preference (open the documentin the browser, open it in the application, download the file). Opening in
a new window removes user choice. By providing a plain link you give usersthe option that you use of `right-click - open in new window`. How do Ichoose to open a new-window-link in the current window if that is my
preference?The only time I open links (to web pages) in a new window is when I haveto place a link inside someone else's frame and I warn the user that I'mdoing it. I wouldn't use a new window for the downloadable documents you
are referring to.Unexpected pdfs are annoying, especially for low-bandwidth users. So, Iwould recommend something like:
Include all the info in the link, if you can, for people who only read thelinks.Cheers,Damian> Hi All We've had a discussion at work about pdf documents and hijacking the
user's> browser / making it more user-friendly.  What is the general feelingtowards> having pdf and other non-html documents open in a new window?>>--Damian SweeneyLearning Skills Adviser (online)
Language and Learning Skills UnitInstructional Designer, AIRport ProjectEquity, Language and Learning ProgramsUniversity of Melbourne723 Swanston StParkville 3010
www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/airport.unimelb.edu.au/ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039
This email and any attachments may contain personal information orinformation that is otherwise confidential or the subject ofcopyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part of  itis prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or  any
attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check anyattachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If thisemail is received in error please delete it and notify us by return  emailor by phoning (03) 8344 9370.
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RE: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy

[Drake, Ted C.]

Hi Damian
Thanks for the feedback. We use CSS to place an icon in front of the link to
illustrate the file format as well as the (filename.pdf, 35k) designation.

Is there anyone out there that supports opening in a new window?  If not, it
looks like I will suggest we keep it behavior-free.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Damian Sweeney
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 3:01 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy

Hi Ted,

I would say let the user decide. Wherever possible I try to provide enough
information in the link itself so that the user knows what to expect and
can proceed as they wish. Many people will set up their browser to deal
with different file types according to their preference (open the document
in the browser, open it in the application, download the file). Opening in
a new window removes user choice. By providing a plain link you give users
the option that you use of `right-click - open in new window`. How do I
choose to open a new-window-link in the current window if that is my
preference?

The only time I open links (to web pages) in a new window is when I have
to place a link inside someone else's frame and I warn the user that I'm
doing it. I wouldn't use a new window for the downloadable documents you
are referring to.

Unexpected pdfs are annoying, especially for low-bandwidth users. So, I
would recommend something like:

Some stuff (pdf format, 200kb)

Include all the info in the link, if you can, for people who only read the
links.

Cheers,

Damian

> Hi All
>
>
>
> We've had a discussion at work about pdf documents and hijacking the
user's
> browser / making it more user-friendly.  What is the general feeling
towards
> having pdf and other non-html documents open in a new window?
>
>
--
Damian Sweeney
Learning Skills Adviser (online)
Language and Learning Skills Unit
Instructional Designer, AIRport Project
Equity, Language and Learning Programs
University of Melbourne
723 Swanston St
Parkville 3010
www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/
www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/
airport.unimelb.edu.au/
ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039

This email and any attachments may contain personal information or 
information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of
copyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part of  it
is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or  any
attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any
attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this
email is received in error please delete it and notify us by return  email
or by phoning (03) 8344 9370.






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Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy

[Bruce]

Myself I would say when possible have an alternate txt or html file. I
strongly discourage pdf on  websites unless it is a zip file for download.
As stated by Damian they are annoying for users with modems, and I find them
annoying at all times.
Keep pdf's for printing and inter office.

Bruce Prochnau
BKDesign Solutions

- Original Message - 
From: "Damian Sweeney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 6:01 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy


> Hi Ted,
>
> I would say let the user decide. Wherever possible I try to provide enough
> information in the link itself so that the user knows what to expect and
> can proceed as they wish. Many people will set up their browser to deal
> with different file types according to their preference (open the document
> in the browser, open it in the application, download the file). Opening in
> a new window removes user choice. By providing a plain link you give users
> the option that you use of `right-click - open in new window`. How do I
> choose to open a new-window-link in the current window if that is my
> preference?
>
> The only time I open links (to web pages) in a new window is when I have
> to place a link inside someone else's frame and I warn the user that I'm
> doing it. I wouldn't use a new window for the downloadable documents you
> are referring to.
>
> Unexpected pdfs are annoying, especially for low-bandwidth users. So, I
> would recommend something like:
>
> Some stuff (pdf format, 200kb)
>
> Include all the info in the link, if you can, for people who only read the
> links.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Damian
>
> > Hi All
> >
> >
> >
> > We've had a discussion at work about pdf documents and hijacking the
> user's
> > browser / making it more user-friendly.  What is the general feeling
> towards
> > having pdf and other non-html documents open in a new window?
> >
> >
> --
> Damian Sweeney
> Learning Skills Adviser (online)
> Language and Learning Skills Unit
> Instructional Designer, AIRport Project
> Equity, Language and Learning Programs
> University of Melbourne
> 723 Swanston St
> Parkville 3010
> www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/
> www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/
> airport.unimelb.edu.au/
> ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039
>
> This email and any attachments may contain personal information or
> information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of
> copyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part of  it
> is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or  any
> attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any
> attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this
> email is received in error please delete it and notify us by return  email
> or by phoning (03) 8344 9370.
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
>
>

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Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy

[Damian Sweeney]

Hi Ted,

I would say let the user decide. Wherever possible I try to provide enough
information in the link itself so that the user knows what to expect and
can proceed as they wish. Many people will set up their browser to deal
with different file types according to their preference (open the document
in the browser, open it in the application, download the file). Opening in
a new window removes user choice. By providing a plain link you give users
the option that you use of `right-click - open in new window`. How do I
choose to open a new-window-link in the current window if that is my
preference?

The only time I open links (to web pages) in a new window is when I have
to place a link inside someone else's frame and I warn the user that I'm
doing it. I wouldn't use a new window for the downloadable documents you
are referring to.

Unexpected pdfs are annoying, especially for low-bandwidth users. So, I
would recommend something like:

Some stuff (pdf format, 200kb)

Include all the info in the link, if you can, for people who only read the
links.

Cheers,

Damian

> Hi All
>
>
>
> We've had a discussion at work about pdf documents and hijacking the
user's
> browser / making it more user-friendly.  What is the general feeling
towards
> having pdf and other non-html documents open in a new window?
>
>
--
Damian Sweeney
Learning Skills Adviser (online)
Language and Learning Skills Unit
Instructional Designer, AIRport Project
Equity, Language and Learning Programs
University of Melbourne
723 Swanston St
Parkville 3010
www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/
www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/
airport.unimelb.edu.au/
ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039

This email and any attachments may contain personal information or 
information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of
copyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part of  it
is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or  any
attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any
attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this
email is received in error please delete it and notify us by return  email
or by phoning (03) 8344 9370.






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 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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Re: [WSG] Screen readers, flash, DOM

[Jan Brasna]

Some screen readers sit on top of browsers like IE. If IE has Flash
embedded in it, and the Flash has been made accessible (see
), then it's exposed to the
screen reader. The reason that screen readers should have access to
Flash is that developers sometimes put important information in Flash
movies, and people using screen readers should have access to it.


I'm aware of all of this, I wasn't just sure whether those visitors 
usually install the flash plgugin.



UFO uses DOM injection. Screen readers partially support JavaScript,
but they don't appear to understand changes to the DOM once the
document has loaded. I haven't tested UFO with a screen reader, but
it's very unlikely that it will be exposed to screen reader users.


Great, thanks Gez, this is the point of the whole question.

--
Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com
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Re: [WSG] Reason for leaving

[Kim Kruse]

I can't remember where I read it but the article claimed that there is 
at least 750 million disabled people worldwide. (I know not all of them 
are blind etc and is probably not using the Internet... but as Vlad say 
"Accessibility is about usability for everyone, not any specific 
interest group"


Kim


Vlad Alexander (XStandard) wrote:


Hi Duncan,

 


Is there really that many disabled internet users?
 


Accessibility is about usability for everyone, not any specific interest group. Millions 
of users on the Web don't consider themselves disabled but use features that we 
incorrectly consider as "accessibility" only features. These include browsing 
with larger fonts, using keyboard shortcuts, browsing with images turned off, etc.

Discussing Web standards in relation to one specific group like blind users 
using assistive technology is useful because it makes it easier to spot errors 
in your markup and design approach. Also, keep in mind that search engines 
process your Web site just like assistive technologies.

Regards,
-Vlad
http://xstandard.com



 Original Message 
From: Duncan Stigwood
Date: 8/15/2005 1:35 PM
 


On 12/08/05, Brian Grimmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

   


This forum has unfortunately degraded from a useful resource in regards to
properly writing code for use by those with disabilities to just another
HTML help group...

 


Are the disabed really the main priority when it comes to web
standards? I'm new to web design as a job and I like the fact I know
the standards and am on this list because I see it as the niche in the
market that'll help me be a successful freelancer.

For me coding to standards has been more about being state of the art
than anything else. Knowing that behind the pretty interface is slim
and sexy coding.  I always laughed off the disability thing the same
way you do when there are no spaces in the supermarket car park except
all the disabled spots.

Is there really that many disabled internet users? I would like to know. :)
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Re: [WSG] Reason for leaving

[XStandard]

Hi Duncan,

>>Is there really that many disabled internet users?
Accessibility is about usability for everyone, not any specific interest group. 
Millions of users on the Web don't consider themselves disabled but use 
features that we incorrectly consider as "accessibility" only features. These 
include browsing with larger fonts, using keyboard shortcuts, browsing with 
images turned off, etc.

Discussing Web standards in relation to one specific group like blind users 
using assistive technology is useful because it makes it easier to spot errors 
in your markup and design approach. Also, keep in mind that search engines 
process your Web site just like assistive technologies.

Regards,
-Vlad
http://xstandard.com



 Original Message 
From: Duncan Stigwood
Date: 8/15/2005 1:35 PM
> On 12/08/05, Brian Grimmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>This forum has unfortunately degraded from a useful resource in regards to
>>properly writing code for use by those with disabilities to just another
>>HTML help group...
>>
>
>
> Are the disabed really the main priority when it comes to web
> standards? I'm new to web design as a job and I like the fact I know
> the standards and am on this list because I see it as the niche in the
> market that'll help me be a successful freelancer.
>
> For me coding to standards has been more about being state of the art
> than anything else. Knowing that behind the pretty interface is slim
> and sexy coding.  I always laughed off the disability thing the same
> way you do when there are no spaces in the supermarket car park except
> all the disabled spots.
>
> Is there really that many disabled internet users? I would like to know. :)
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
>
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
>
>


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RE: [WSG] Reason for leaving

[Drake, Ted C.]

Here is something to remember, even if disabled visitors are not your main
concern. 
The biggest blind user in the world is Google.

Code your pages correctly, delivering friendly pages to the disabled and
Google,  and your customers will benefit in many ways.  It's not just about
doing what is charitable. It is about doing what is best for everyone.

Ted


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Duncan Stigwood
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 10:36 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Reason for leaving

On 12/08/05, Brian Grimmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This forum has unfortunately degraded from a useful resource in regards to
> properly writing code for use by those with disabilities to just another
> HTML help group...
> 

Are the disabed really the main priority when it comes to web
standards? I'm new to web design as a job and I like the fact I know
the standards and am on this list because I see it as the niche in the
market that'll help me be a successful freelancer.

For me coding to standards has been more about being state of the art
than anything else. Knowing that behind the pretty interface is slim
and sexy coding.  I always laughed off the disability thing the same
way you do when there are no spaces in the supermarket car park except
all the disabled spots.

Is there really that many disabled internet users? I would like to know. :)
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Re: [WSG] Reason for leaving

[Duncan Stigwood]

On 12/08/05, Brian Grimmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This forum has unfortunately degraded from a useful resource in regards to
> properly writing code for use by those with disabilities to just another
> HTML help group...
> 

Are the disabed really the main priority when it comes to web
standards? I'm new to web design as a job and I like the fact I know
the standards and am on this list because I see it as the niche in the
market that'll help me be a successful freelancer.

For me coding to standards has been more about being state of the art
than anything else. Knowing that behind the pretty interface is slim
and sexy coding.  I always laughed off the disability thing the same
way you do when there are no spaces in the supermarket car park except
all the disabled spots.

Is there really that many disabled internet users? I would like to know. :)
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[WSG] table-cell and ie

[Janelle Clemens]

Please help as I am 
starting to go bald from pulling by hair out over this issue.   Is 
there anyway (hack) to get Internet Exlporer to abide by the table-cell 
property?   Or is there a max-height hack for IE?   
 
 
:-)
Janelle
 

RE: [WSG] I'm on a question roll.... background images on links

[Drake, Ted C.]

Hi Paul
I should have mentioned that the link normally appears within paragraphs of
text. It will sometimes appear as a link inside a list. Floating is an
interesting option for other applications.

Thanks
Ted

-

Floating the link left as well as display:block should make the image sit at
the end of the text, as opposed to spaning the width of the page. This can
cause problems in a few older browsers such as Netscape 6, as once you float
something left it is no longer a block element.
 
Hope that makes sense.
 
 ---

We are using a background image on links to signify they are external. The
image sits on the right side of the link using background: url() 100% 0;

All is fine in firefox, but in IE the icon overlaps or sits at the top when
the text wraps to a second line.  Is there a way to make the background
image follow the text inside a link rather than looking at the link as a
block?

I've tried display: inline-block and that made the spacing better, but
didn't fix the issue.

Here's an example

Good link:  

| Google Virtual |
| World (icon)   |


Bad link:
| Google Virtua(icon) | The icon sits at the top and doesn't 
| World   | flow with the text


Has anyone found a way to fix this? I don't want to go back to inline images
and our standard is to have the icon on the right and not the left.
Otherwise, I would have placed it on the left and it would have been a
cake-walk.

P.S. sorry about an earlier html formatted email, I try to send them in
plain text.


Thanks


Ted Drake
www.tdrake.net 
 
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Re: [WSG] I'm on a question roll.... background images on links

[Paul Collins]

Floating the link left as well as display:block 
should make the image sit at the end of the text, as opposed to spaning the 
width of the page. This can cause problems in a few older browsers such as 
Netscape 6, as once you float something left it is no longer a block 
element.
 
Hope that makes sense.
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Drake, Ted C. 
  To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org' 
  
  Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 5:32 
  PM
  Subject: [WSG] I'm on a question roll 
  background images on links
  We are using a background image on links to signify they are 
  external. Theimage sits on the right side of the link using background: 
  url() 100% 0;All is fine in firefox, but in IE the icon overlaps or 
  sits at the top whenthe text wraps to a second line.  Is there a way 
  to make the backgroundimage follow the text inside a link rather than 
  looking at the link as ablock?I've tried display: inline-block and 
  that made the spacing better, butdidn't fix the issue.Here's an 
  exampleGood link:  | Google Virtual || World 
  (icon)   |Bad link:| Google Virtua(icon) | The icon 
  sits at the top and doesn't | 
  World   
  | flow with the textHas anyone found a way to fix this? I don't 
  want to go back to inline imagesand our standard is to have the icon on 
  the right and not the left.Otherwise, I would have placed it on the left 
  and it would have been acake-walk.P.S. sorry about an earlier html 
  formatted email, I try to send them inplain 
  text.ThanksTed Drakewww.tdrake.net 
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  discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See 
  http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for 
  some hints on posting to the list & getting 
  help**

[WSG] I'm on a question roll.... background images on links

[Drake, Ted C.]

We are using a background image on links to signify they are external. The
image sits on the right side of the link using background: url() 100% 0;

All is fine in firefox, but in IE the icon overlaps or sits at the top when
the text wraps to a second line.  Is there a way to make the background
image follow the text inside a link rather than looking at the link as a
block?

I've tried display: inline-block and that made the spacing better, but
didn't fix the issue.

Here's an example

Good link:  

| Google Virtual |
| World (icon)   |


Bad link:
| Google Virtua(icon) | The icon sits at the top and doesn't 
| World   | flow with the text


Has anyone found a way to fix this? I don't want to go back to inline images
and our standard is to have the icon on the right and not the left.
Otherwise, I would have placed it on the left and it would have been a
cake-walk.

P.S. sorry about an earlier html formatted email, I try to send them in
plain text.


Thanks


Ted Drake
www.tdrake.net 

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[WSG] blog business summit

[Drake, Ted C.]

Hi All

Is there anyone on this list that is going to the blog business summit in
San Francisco this week?  I'd like to meet and say hello to any fellow list
members.  

http://www.blogbusinesssummit.com/index.htm?businesslogs



Ted 
www.tdrake.net

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[WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy

[Drake, Ted C.]

Hi All

 

We've had a discussion at work about pdf documents and
hijacking the user's browser / making it more user-friendly.  What is the
general feeling towards having pdf and other non-html documents open in a new
window?

 

I personally find it annoying to open a pdf document in the
native window and having to wait for the reader to load. I usually right-click
and open in a new window.  However, I know some people expect that to happen
and could lose their place if a bunch of windows are opened.  I would use the
_javascript_ approach to avoid using target="_blank". This should
avoid the complications of having PDA devices or screen readers attempting to
open multiple windows.

 

So, I told my co-workers that I would throw this out to the
standards community.  Try to ignore any bias I may have. I would appreciate any
honest feedback about whether we should open new windows for .pdf, .doc, .ppt,
xls, .visio, or .whatever.

 

Thanks

 

 

Ted Drake

Web
& Collaboration Services
Science Applications International
Corporation
858.826.3856 / 858.826.3336 (fax)

 

Re: [WSG] Forcing Display of Block

[Alan Gutierrez]

* Bert Doorn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005-08-15 10:18]:
> G'day
> 
> >   Very simply:
> >
> >   
> >   Hello.
> >   
> >   
> >
> >   Is there any way to have the second "p" appear without
> >   inserting a non-breaking space?
> > 
> >
> Question: What's the (semantic or otherwise) meaning of the empty 
> paragraph?  

> If it's only there to add extra white-space, why not add padding-bottom:1em 
> (or whatever you need) to the div?

> If it's there for another reason, you could try giving it a height (through 
> CSS)

It's a JavaScript/W3C DOM hack. I'm trying to fashion an edit
control out of W3C DOM. I need to keep it from collapsing if the
user removes all the text.

It makes little sense otherwise, so I'm not surpised it's not
readily supported.

I'll probably use the hight as you mentioned. Thank you.

--
Alan Gutierrez - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- http://engrm.com/blogometer/index.html
- http://engrm.com/blogometer/rss.2.0.xml
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Re: [WSG] Table header

[Douglas Clifton]

Why stop there? Here's the skeleton of a two column table with
summary, caption, header, body and footer. Note that the first
column is designed to be a label for the data in the second.
Also note the placement of the  element in the sequence.
This is important.


 
 
  
   
  
  
   
   
  
 
 
  
   
  
 
 
  
   
   
  
 


-- 
Douglas Clifton
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://loadaveragezero.com/
http://loadaveragezero.com/app/s9y/
http://loadaveragezero.com/drx/rss/recent

> From: "Patrick H. Lauke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 12:16:26 +0100
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Table header
> 
> 
> 
> Lea de Groot wrote:
> 
> > The thead tag is the key -
> 
> If you're using thead, you may as well go all the way and add a tbody as
> well...
> 
>
>
>
> IDVar 1Var 2
>
>
>
> 
> ID VALUE
> Var 1 value
> Var 2 value
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> Patrick H. Lauke
> __
> re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
> [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
> www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
> http://redux.deviantart.com
> __
> Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
> http://webstandards.org/
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[WSG] RE: Stupid Questions? (was RE: [WSG] "display: inline-block": valid or not? W3C validator says not.)

[John Foliot - WATS.ca]

Patrick Lauke wrote:
>> John Foliot - WATS.ca
> 
>> There is no such thing as a stupid question (although
>> occasionally we will see stupid responses...)
> 
> You tell 'em John :)
> 
> P

As a point of clarification, when I say stupid responses, I meant in the
form of condescending or mean responses, rather than factually
inaccurate responses (which sometimes *do* crop up, but not that
frequently).  My concern was that a "new" member felt intimidated to ask
a question here, which made me sad...

JF
--
John Foliot  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web Accessibility Specialist / Co-founder of WATS.ca
Web Accessibility Testing and Services
http://www.wats.ca   
Phone: 1-613-482-7053 


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RE: Stupid Questions? (was RE: [WSG] "display: inline-block": valid or not? W3C validator says not.)

[Patrick Lauke]

> John Foliot - WATS.ca

> There is no such thing as a stupid question (although
> occasionally we will see stupid responses...)

You tell 'em John :)

P
__
Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
__
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
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Re: [WSG] Forcing Display of Block

[Bert Doorn]

G'day


   Very simply:

   
   Hello.
   
   

   Is there any way to have the second "p" appear without
   inserting a non-breaking space?
 

Question: What's the (semantic or otherwise) meaning of the empty paragraph?  


If it's only there to add extra white-space, why not add padding-bottom:1em (or 
whatever you need) to the div?

If it's there for another reason, you could try giving it a height (through CSS)

Regards 
--

Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites 



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[WSG] Forcing Display of Block

[Alan Gutierrez]

Very simply:


Hello.



Is there any way to have the second "p" appear without
inserting a non-breaking space?

Curious.

--
Alan Gutierrez - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- http://engrm.com/blogometer/index.html
- http://engrm.com/blogometer/rss.2.0.xml
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RE: [WSG] Q: cross browser submit button image replacement

[Tatham Oddie \(Fuel Advance\)]

Rex,

Safari won't let you style at all.

Take a look at what I did on www.whatcanido.com.au for the search fields
top-left.



Thanks,

Tatham Oddie
Fuel Advance - Ignite Your Idea
www.fueladvance.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Rex Chung
Sent: Monday, 15 August 2005 9:16 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Q: cross browser submit button image replacement

Hi all,

Anyone know what is the best practise for image replacement with
rollover states for submit buttons.

I tried adding onmouseover class change javascript with:
1. background image for 
but - doesnt work for safari, value attribute shows up 

2. text-indent=-1000em for submit
but onmouseover doesnt seem to work for IE.

I haven't found a good solution for cross browser capability with
rollover states.

Thanks!
Rex.
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Stupid Questions? (was RE: [WSG] "display: inline-block": valid or not? W3C validator says not.)

[John Foliot - WATS.ca]

SunUp wrote:
> I do realise this is probably a very stupid question, and it's more
> than a little scary asking a stupid question on this list, but I'll
> wear the result if it means I can understand what I've done wrong.
> 
> Thanks,
> sunny.

Goodness Sunny,

There really is no such thing as a stupid question - please, I really
hope that this list has not reached the point that newer subscribers
feel intimidated to ask questions.  Your question was both valid and
well posed.

Hey everybody!  There is no such thing as a stupid question (although
occasionally we will see stupid responses...)

Cheers all!

JF
--
John Foliot  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web Accessibility Specialist / Co-founder of WATS.ca
Web Accessibility Testing and Services
http://www.wats.ca   
Phone: 1-613-482-7053 


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[WSG] Internationalization Articles Published

[Richard Ishida]

The W3C Internationalization GEO (Guidelines, Education & Outreach) Working 
Group publishes information to help people understand and use international 
aspects of W3C technologies. These articles are likely to be useful to WSG 
folks.


In the past month, the group published 
-   Using Character Entities and NCRs
http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-escapes.html

-   Using  to Link to Localized Content
http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-navigation-select

-   Ruby Markup and Styling
http://www.w3.org/International/tutorials/ruby/




There is also a regular stream of updates[1] and translations[2]. 

For details and I18n news and RSS feeds[3], visit the Internationalization home 
page[4].

[1] http://www.w3.org/International/#qa

[2] http://www.w3.org/International/#newtrans

[3] http://www.w3.org/International/log/description

[4] http://www.w3.org/International/


RI


Richard Ishida
W3C

contact info:
http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/ 

W3C Internationalization:
http://www.w3.org/International/ 

Publication blog:
http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
 

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[WSG] Q: cross browser submit button image replacement

[Rex Chung]

Hi all,

Anyone know what is the best practise for image replacement with
rollover states for submit buttons.

I tried adding onmouseover class change javascript with:
1. background image for 
but - doesnt work for safari, value attribute shows up 

2. text-indent=-1000em for submit
but onmouseover doesnt seem to work for IE.

I haven't found a good solution for cross browser capability with
rollover states.

Thanks!
Rex.
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Re: [WSG] CSS rollover with dynamic drop down menu

[Bert Doorn]

G'day

I'm trying to combine a CSS image rollover with a drop down menu. 
Everything is working fine bar the css image rollover.


For some reason the a:hover is not being read. I've probably missed 
something very simple but just can't see it.


Your HTML: 


 

Your CSS:

 #Home a:hover {background: url(Menu.gif) no-repeat 0px -14px;}

That rule will be applied to a hovered link *inside* another element that has id="Home".  
However, in your HTML *the link itself* has that id.


To fix it, either put the id on the list item (li) or change the css to 
#Home:hoverSame goes for the other links.


Hope this makes sense.

--
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites 



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[WSG] CSS rollover with dynamic drop down menu

[Stuart Sherwood]

I'm trying to combine a CSS image rollover with a drop down menu. 
Everything is working fine bar the css image rollover.


For some reason the a:hover is not being read. I've probably missed 
something very simple but just can't see it.


http://www.re-entity.com/Menu/index.htm
http://www.re-entity.com/Menu/style.css

Any help would be much appreciated.

Regards,
Stuart
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Re: [WSG] "display: inline-block": valid or not? W3C validator says not.

[Ben Ward]

> CSS 2 - W3C recommendation
> CSS 2.1 - Working draft
> 
> Until CSS 2.1 becomes a recommendation, which shouldn't be too long
> (deadline for comments was July), the W3C validator will use what ever
> the current recommendation is.

Just to be a touch pedantic, CSS2.1 only needs to become a 'candidate
recommendation' before it should be considered 'the' CSS. This is
equivalent to what the W3C used to call a 'recommendation' and means
that browser makers should be looking to implement it as CR is feature
stable. CSS2.1 can't be a 'recommendation' until a full test suite has
been completed, which requires the assistance of browser makers
building implementations.

As such, the validator may well start responding to CSS2.1 syntax
earlier than 'recommendation'. We'll see.

Ben
http://ben-ward.co.uk
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RE: [WSG] "display: inline-block": valid or not? W3C validator says not.

[Jason Turnbull]

CSS 2 - W3C recommendation
CSS 2.1 - Working draft

Until CSS 2.1 becomes a recommendation, which shouldn't be too long
(deadline for comments was July), the W3C validator will use what ever
the current recommendation is.

Regards
Jason


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Re: [WSG] Screen readers, flash, DOM

[Gez Lemon]

Hi Jan,

> Maybe strange questions - Do the users of screen readers have flash? (I
> have no idea for a reason why they shloud)

Some screen readers sit on top of browsers like IE. If IE has Flash
embedded in it, and the Flash has been made accessible (see
), then it's exposed to the
screen reader. The reason that screen readers should have access to
Flash is that developers sometimes put important information in Flash
movies, and people using screen readers should have access to it.

> - And do the screen readers
> read the elements from the document, even if they're not in DOM?

Occasionally. The abbr element isn't included in IE's DOM, but JAWS,
which sits on top of IE will expose the abbr element to the visitor
depending on the verbosity settings.

> The reason I ask this - I'm including a flash header via UFO v1.0 [1],
> based on its presence detection. If positive, the script exchanges (in
> DOM) an H1 element with the flash object, so I wanted to know, how this
> can result in various scenarios.

UFO uses DOM injection. Screen readers partially support JavaScript,
but they don't appear to understand changes to the DOM once the
document has loaded. I haven't tested UFO with a screen reader, but
it's very unlikely that it will be exposed to screen reader users.

Best regards,

Gez

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