Re: [WSG] Call for a new (scalable) business case for web standards.

[Ben Bishop]

On 2/3/06, Jay Gilmore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I want to go beyond the
argument of separation of information and presentation markup.  What sort of resistance are you facing here? I.e. why are you arguing in the first place?
That portion is an easy sell. I am really talking about form and usage
of semantics, logical content markupI don't understand what kind of clients you have that are pushing for non-semantic and illogical markup.Are you looking for ammunition to try to convince a business they really need a new website because their current one isn't standards based? Are you looking for an explanation of why you are different to all the other web developers out there?
Ultimately, do you really need to "sell" web standards to the client?I'm all for educating businesses. I'm all for educating developers. If you really want to get out there and make a difference, organise Web Standards Group meetings in your home city. Give presentations to user groups. Give talks to interest groups. Show everyone your passion.
-Ben

Re: [WSG] Gaps At The Top

[russ - maxdesign]

> Adding a "margin: 0px;" to the H1 element pushed up to the top.

Remember, every time you add units to a "0" value, a web standards fairy
dies. To avoid this on your conscience, simply use "margin: 0;". Apart from
the lives you could save, think of the bandwidth savings!

Russ
Web standards shetland pony

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

[WSG] IE7 Beta 2 Preview

[Al Sparber]

We'll try to add to these as time goes by and also expand it to 
include not just bugs, but new CSS capabilities, as well as (and 
hopefully) fix reports :-)


http://www.projectseven.com/csslab/ie7/

--
Al Sparber
PVII
http://www.projectseven.com

"Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling 
mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that 
repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday".





**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] pdf graphics

[Joseph R. B. Taylor]

It's also worth mentioning that many other readers exist besides 
Acrobat.  The "feature-rich" Acrobat features may not apply to all the 
readers.


It may be a mute point since just about everyone uses Acrobat, but...

Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Dmitry Baranovskiy wrote:
Or you could open PDF files in Adobe Photoshop. The quality should be 
the same.


Dmitry

jackie reid wrote:


Bruce

If you own a copy of Adobe Acrobat and open the file in there you can 
extract/export images as jpgs. if not do screen shots. Its a pain... 
just like getting all the images required for a website embedded in a 
word doc aagh


jackie
- Original Message - From: "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 8:15 PM
Subject: [WSG] pdf graphics



Hi all,

I was pleased recently to get a rather large project. It was also 
nice that

they were sending the graphics for the site design.
Today I got them, in pdf format!
Now, perhaps I live on another planet, or a rank amature, but in the 
last

ten years online I have known no-one who uses pdf for graphics.
I have no clue what to do with them, especially after client stating the
time he put into making them.
I wish all pdf files would get lost, feel they have no place on the web.
I really hope that standards aren't moving in this direction!!!

What do you do in a situation like this? I need them for the design, 
menu

items and backgrounds...

Bruce Prochnau
BKDesign

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**



__ NOD32 1.1365 (20060114) Information __

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com




**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**




**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**




**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Gaps At The Top

[Joseph R. B. Taylor]

Adding a "margin: 0px;" to the H1 element pushed up to the top.

Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

White Ash wrote:

Hi all ~
 
There's a gap at the top of the page in Firefox & Opera, but not in IE.  
I would like that gap to go away!
 
Then in Firefox & Opera, the navigation comes down a bit, and I actually 
like that! 
 
How to get the best of both worlds??!!
 
http://www.frozenblues.com/cbmurphy/index02.php
 
http://www.frozenblues.com/cbmurphy/css/styles02.css
 
Thanks a bunch for any and all help!
 
White Ash





No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.0/248 - Release Date: 2/1/2006

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] pdf graphics

[Dmitry Baranovskiy]

Or you could open PDF files in Adobe Photoshop. The quality should be 
the same.


Dmitry

jackie reid wrote:

Bruce

If you own a copy of Adobe Acrobat and open the file in there you can 
extract/export images as jpgs. if not do screen shots. Its a pain... 
just like getting all the images required for a website embedded in a 
word doc aagh


jackie
- Original Message - From: "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 8:15 PM
Subject: [WSG] pdf graphics



Hi all,

I was pleased recently to get a rather large project. It was also 
nice that

they were sending the graphics for the site design.
Today I got them, in pdf format!
Now, perhaps I live on another planet, or a rank amature, but in the 
last

ten years online I have known no-one who uses pdf for graphics.
I have no clue what to do with them, especially after client stating the
time he put into making them.
I wish all pdf files would get lost, feel they have no place on the web.
I really hope that standards aren't moving in this direction!!!

What do you do in a situation like this? I need them for the design, 
menu

items and backgrounds...

Bruce Prochnau
BKDesign

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**



__ NOD32 1.1365 (20060114) Information __

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com




**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**




**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] pdf graphics

[jackie reid]

Bruce

If you own a copy of Adobe Acrobat and open the file in there you can 
extract/export images as jpgs. if not do screen shots. Its a pain... just 
like getting all the images required for a website embedded in a word doc 
aagh


jackie
- Original Message - 
From: "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 8:15 PM
Subject: [WSG] pdf graphics



Hi all,

I was pleased recently to get a rather large project. It was also nice 
that

they were sending the graphics for the site design.
Today I got them, in pdf format!
Now, perhaps I live on another planet, or a rank amature, but in the last
ten years online I have known no-one who uses pdf for graphics.
I have no clue what to do with them, especially after client stating the
time he put into making them.
I wish all pdf files would get lost, feel they have no place on the web.
I really hope that standards aren't moving in this direction!!!

What do you do in a situation like this? I need them for the design, menu
items and backgrounds...

Bruce Prochnau
BKDesign

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**



__ NOD32 1.1365 (20060114) Information __

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com




**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Questions about Data Tables and Accessibility

[Terrence Wood]

Hi Kat, I'll paraphrase while attempting to answer

> abbreviation for number?
no.

> When is two tables better than one?
When you have a logical grouping that shares some attributes, but the data
makes sense when presented as a stand-alone table.

> When is it better to split up the data?
When you have an 'excessive' number of rows or columns.

> Is two columns with the same name bad table structure?
Possibly, but there must be some feature of each of the columns that makes
them distinct from each other. If so, include the distinguishing feature
as part of the column heading.

> Should I split a table on units?
Not neccessarily, just insure that the unit forms part of the column label.

> Are colgroups only for presentation?
 is structural,  is presentational. Using them demarcates
data.
> Are there ids, headers or something involved?
Not for 
> How is it done? Is there some sort of way that someone using the
> accessibility features can choose one or other colgroup?
Add the  element to the top of your table after the caption and
before any row groups.

> In what order do headers go on table cell data?  Does this matter?
I don't understand the question.

> Can you omit the caption if the table is the only thing on the page?
You really should have a caption. It gets read as part of the table,
whereas the heading doesn't.

> If you have a table-header that spans two rows - is it seen as the
> table header for both rows?
I read somewhere that you shouldn't span rows, but I can't find the source.

Anyone?

Oh, here is one source but it's not the one I am thinking of
http://www.webaim.org/techniques/tables/2 (see 2.7 Avoid spanning rows).
There is also an argument around about how it becomes more confusing when
a table is linearized. I say avoid rowspan if at all possible.

> scope, or id and headers?
Scope should suffice on simple tables (two or less heading levels, small
number of cols and/or rows), complex tables need headers and ids to work
well for the widest number of screen readers.

HTH

kind regards
Terrence Wood.

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Background-Image download order

[Todd Baker]

Thanks Terrence Wood, yes the nav items work with images turned off,
they have a bg color as well as an image.


Jay Gilmore, www.smh.com.au has most of their images in these files -->

http://www.smh.com.au/css/2005/img/sprite_section-strap.gif
http://www.smh.com.au/css/2005/img/sprite_li.gif

Not a bad method. Im not sure it would work for us. but its worth investigating.

Thanks for everyones input.
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Marilyn Langfeld wrote:
And Adobe is adding accessibility 
aids (depends on the designer to implement them though).


Worth mentioning though that the accessibility enhancements (like the 
way that a screenreader can access the content of a PDF in a sensible 
manner) only apply to the standalone Adobe Reader application, not the 
browser plugin mode (last time I checked, anyway).


--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site

[Joshua Street]

My biggest concern is PDF's lack of hypertext structure. At present,
it can do outbound links, it can even do web forms, but there's no way
to link to an anchor within a document. Hence, to address it as though
it were just another webpage is, to me, detaching hypertext from the
web. HTML = HyperText Markup Language, whilst PDF = Portable Document
Format. Documents are separate to Hypertext in that they are defined,
and, as I perceive it related in purely linear fashion -- parallel
fashion, even -- to the web (you download it, you read. No
interaction.)

PDF is getting more feature-rich, sure, but is it supplanting markup?
For "visually complex documents/presentations", I'd _personally_ lean
more towards hybrid markup/Flash (with appropriate accessibility
controls) than PDF, unless a PDF already existed and was accessible
(for example, large, complex documents such as annual reports, etc.).
Forms, on the other hand, seem to be pointless in a PDF unless it's
intended as a hypertext replacement -- which (IMO) it shouldn't me.

*$0.05 expired. Insert more to continue.*

Josh

On 2/3/06, Marilyn Langfeld <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm going to stick my neck out here folks...
>
> PDF presentation on the web is getting better. Example: http://
> www.bamagazine.com/?Click=40472  I tried to download one of the pdfs
> (in Safari 2.0.3) and it opened instead. I actually preferred reading
> it in Safari to opening Acrobat and reading it there. Surprised myself.
>
> I wouldn't want pdf to supplant HTML web pages, but for those
> visually complex documents/presentations that don't work well in
> HTML, I can see a use for pdf display in the browser. And Adobe is
> adding accessibility aids (depends on the designer to implement them
> though). I think I prefer this to Flash. Soon, I'm afraid we'll see
> lots of Flash and pdf combined, so get ready. One day you may wish
> there were more plain pdfs, instead of whatever hybrid Flash/pdf
> becomes.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Marilyn Langfeld
> Langfeldesigns
> http://www.langfeldesigns.com
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
>
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
>
>


--
Joshua Street

http://www.joahua.com/
+61 (0) 425 808 469
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

RE: [WSG] Which unit is better for web site font size?

[Geoff Pack]

"Pixels per inch (PPI)"

That's what I like about standards. The rest of the world uses the Metric 
system, yet we are stuck with these archaic units because the U.S. refuses to 
get with the program.

How's that for a 'moral high horse'? ;)

cheers,
Geoff.


> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of liorean
> Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 8:35 AM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Which unit is better for web site font size?
> 
> 
> On 01/02/06, Brian Cummiskey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Minh D. Tran wrote:
> > > My personal preference has always been pt. I've looked at many
> > > professional source codes and alot of them uses px or % 
> to measure size
> > > of items (divs, img, etc), em for positioning, and pt for 
> font sizes.
> > pt is for PRINT media, not screen.
> 
> Wrong. Points are for all devices that operate at different ppi* than
> 96. Points have a locked points per logical inch resolution of 72.
> Pixels vary depending on ppi. So, if a medium has 96 ppi then a 12pt
> text will be rendered as 12*96/72=16px. If a medium has 120 ppi, then
> the same 12pt text will be rendered as 12*120/72=20px. If a device has
> 300 ppi, the 12pt text will be rendered as 12*300/72=50px. And the
> reverse is also true. That means that 16px text on a 96 ppi medium
> will be rendered the same size as 16*72/96=12pt. If a medium has 120
> ppi, 16px text will be rendered as 16*72/120=9.6pt, and if a medium
> has 300 ppi the 16px text will be rendered as 16*72/300=3.84pt.
> ...except for the fact that the CSS reference pixel is defined at
> about 1/96 inch and not the actual medium pixels, so a smart renderer
> that knows about it's medium's ppi might scale it and thus make sure
> that 16px=12pt is always true. That knowledge or it's implementation
> for that matter is not guaranteed, however.
> 
> * Pixels per "logical" inch, which is about equivalent to dots per
> physical inch as is used in print media. Default in Windows is 96
> (Windows even calls it DPI), or 120 for large size.
> --
> David "liorean" Andersson
> http://liorean.web-graphics.com/>


**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Questions about Data Tables and Accessibility

[Seona Bellamy]

Well, I can't answer all of your questions, but I'll do what I can to get the ball rolling. :)


2. How to tell when one table or two tables is better? When is it better
to split up the data?   What happens if you have two columns with the same name? Is this badtable structure?   I have two colgroups that contain the same information,   just placing the information in different units. Should I split that
into one table for one unit,   and another table for the next unit?
Would it make sense to give them each a different heading, for example:
"width (cm)" and "width (in)"? Not exactly sure what your requirements
are, or even exactly what your data is or is about, but it is something
to consider.

I think seperate tables is probably overkill, especially if there's a
lot of other information in the table that would simple be duplicated.
 
3. Are colgroups only for presentation or is there some way to use them to   demarcate which data has closer relationships? Are there ids, headers
or something involved?   How is it done? Is there some sort of way that someone using theaccessibility features can choose one or other   colgroup?
I believe they do help accessibility in the way you're describing, but
I'm not entirely sure of the technicailities of it. But, for example,
if you split your two columns mentioned above into seperate headers, it
might make sense to put them in a colgroup together.
4. In what order do headers go on table cell data?  Does this matter?

Not entirely sure what you mean here. Do you mean how they are read by a screen reader? 
7. What is the best thing to do? To place scope or headers, or scope andheaders?

I favour scope and headers. It's mainly for the use of screen readers, since I believe most of them will:
a) use a different inflection or otherwise make it obvious when something is a header rather than just data, and
b) alter the way they read the table based on the header's scope.
So it's a way of making a large and complex table much easier to follow
for someone who can't see the physical relationships between each cell.
Hope this helps a little.

Cheers,

Seona.

[WSG] Questions about Data Tables and Accessibility

[Kat]

Hehehe

I found something productive to do!

For a Good While Now I have been covering my eyes with my hands and 
singing "la la la" at the top of my lungs to avoid the fact I don't 
really know how to construct accessible data tables.


So I sat down with an old data table that has another nested, and tried 
to make that more semantic. Despite researching things, I still have a 
few questions (some are easier than others) :


1. when abbreviating number to no. does the period belong within the 
abbreviation element?

   eg. no. or no.

2. How to tell when one table or two tables is better? When is it better 
to split up the data?
  What happens if you have two columns with the same name? Is this bad 
table structure?
 
  I have two colgroups that contain the same information,
  just placing the information in different units. Should I split that 
into one table for one unit,

  and another table for the next unit?

3. Are colgroups only for presentation or is there some way to use them to
  demarcate which data has closer relationships? Are there ids, headers 
or something involved?
  How is it done? Is there some sort of way that someone using the 
accessibility features can choose one or other

  colgroup?

4. In what order do headers go on table cell data?  Does this matter?

5. Does it cause difficulty if you snub a caption because the table is 
the main (only) element in the page, and thus what would be the table 
caption really belongs in the level 1 heading?


6. If you have a table-header that spans two rows - is it seen as the 
table header for both rows?
  This would mean that there would be a double-up with table cells 
having the same headers. The data is correct
  because both sets of data in each row do apply to that particular 
table header. How do I put that in a straightforwards
  fashion to reduce the odds of confusing someone using the 
accessibility features?


  For example:


  
 Headings
 A
 B
 C
  



  Table Row Header
  Data 1a
  Data 1b
  Data 1c



  Data 2a
  Data 2b
  Data 2c



7. What is the best thing to do? To place scope or headers, or scope and 
headers?


I will appreciate any questions answered,

Thank you :)

Kat



**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site

[Marilyn Langfeld]

I'm going to stick my neck out here folks...

PDF presentation on the web is getting better. Example: http:// 
www.bamagazine.com/?Click=40472  I tried to download one of the pdfs  
(in Safari 2.0.3) and it opened instead. I actually preferred reading  
it in Safari to opening Acrobat and reading it there. Surprised myself.


I wouldn't want pdf to supplant HTML web pages, but for those  
visually complex documents/presentations that don't work well in  
HTML, I can see a use for pdf display in the browser. And Adobe is  
adding accessibility aids (depends on the designer to implement them  
though). I think I prefer this to Flash. Soon, I'm afraid we'll see  
lots of Flash and pdf combined, so get ready. One day you may wish  
there were more plain pdfs, instead of whatever hybrid Flash/pdf  
becomes.


Best regards,

Marilyn Langfeld
Langfeldesigns
http://www.langfeldesigns.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Standards Savvy Shopping Cart

[Jan Brasna]

CubeCart or Zen Cart may also be fine.

--
Jan Brasna :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com | www.wdnews.net
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

RE: [WSG] "cool" FAQ page [follow up]

[Focas, Grant]

It's very nice Thierry.
IE/Mac cannot access it via keyboard though.
The only way I see around it is:
a) Ignore IE/Mac as it's now officially unsupported
b) Add an onkeypress event, check for enter key, do stuff. Messy.
 
Grant

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thierry Koblentz
Sent: Friday, 3 February 2006 03:23
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] "cool" FAQ page [follow up]

Following a "bug report" (not in the script, but in a browser), I have
made
a few changes to the original solution; it now uses images and seems to
work
in everything but Opera 6.05.

http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/toggle_elements.asp

Regards,
Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

**
This message is intended for the addressee named and may contain
privileged information or confidential information or both. If you
are not the intended recipient please delete it and notify the sender.
**
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Gaps At The Top

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

White Ash wrote:
There's a gap at the top of the page in Firefox & Opera, but not in 
IE.  I would like that gap to go away!


Then in Firefox & Opera, the navigation comes down a bit, and I 
actually like that!


How to get the best of both worlds??!!

http://www.frozenblues.com/cbmurphy/index02.php


Adding something like:

div#container,div#banner {padding-top: 1px;}
#navlist {margin-top: 10px;}
h1 {margin-top: -10px; max-width: 400px;}

...shouldn't be too far off.
Those padding-top prevent collapsing margins, and the margins are then
defined to position correctly across browser-land.

Adjust those margins to taste, and check for unwanted
overlapping/breaking when font-resizing is applied.

regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] css/html snippets

[John Allsopp]

Pete,


Joshua wrote >>  http://webpatterns.org/

*checks it out*

ok, so the term "patterns" is potentially a too far advanced term for
what i'm thinking of. all that microformat and machine readable data
stuff is certainly interesting (Allsopp - i can hear you screaming
about it from here ;-) but...

I *think* what i'm talking about it different. i'm just thinking more
along the lines of a library of cut'n'paste chunks of re-usable code..

maybe i'm trying to jump to the result of what the "web-patternists"
are aiming to investigate.


Probably the biggest problem with web patterns is the term  
"patttern". Most of us think about persian carpets or something when  
we here the term. But it has a precise technical meaning in this  
context, so I decided to go with it, despite the potential for  
confusion.


Originally, when I was first thinking about this whole issue (years  
ago now), I was thinking in terms of "templates". Reusable chunks,  
much like you outlined in your earlier email. This is something which  
Doug Bowman and I chatted about a lot in the aftermath of WE04, and  
more recently Russ and I spoke more about, which took me more in the  
direction of patterns over templates.


The drawback with shared templates is while these are immediately  
useful, they are also trivial. In the sense that they can be  
unthinkingly used, and by using them, no one gets anything other than  
the short term benefit of a shortcut to a quicker page. Btu in real  
world situations, while little reusable chunks are very useful, the  
whole idea does not scale up well. One you reach even major page  
fragments, they tend to become limiting, so people would bend them to  
suit their needs, and all of a sudden you don't actually get the  
benefits of reusable chunks anymore.


How do patterns differ? Well, a pattern (such as "login box")  
certainly should include an example implementation, even a  
"canonical" one, but more importantly, would also outline the


typical use cases for the pattern
other patterns which work well with this pattern
patterns which this pattern plays a part in
when NOT to use the pattern (simple example, radio buttons and  
checkboxes are often used interchangeably - but they are separate  
patterns, radio buttons should not be used when you want to choose  
more than one option out of three)
Semantics - the pieces of the pattern all have usable semantic names  
- in the login example, the whole chunk itself would have a name,  
then each of the individual pieces may have names - so you get common  
semantics for "free" - that way you can all of a sudden reuse CSS as  
well as HTML. Cool eh?


So along with resuable code, you a whole wealth of knowledge which  
has ben acquired by developers over time (an important thing about  
patterns is that they aren't novel inventions, rather, they capture  
and formalize well established current practice - they "pave the  
cowpaths")


Hope this helps make more sense of the aim of web patterns - at  
http://webpatterns.org and with the patternquiz there, I started in a  
top down way - but the bottom up way would work well too.


I invite anyone vaguely interested to visit webpatterns.org, and ion  
particular share their thoughts via the patternQuiz (there are two  
parts now)


http://webpatterns.org/wordpress/?cat=3

thanks

john

John Allsopp

style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master
blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher

Web Essentials web development conference :: http://we05.com

WebPatterns :: http://webpatterns.org


**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

[WSG] Gaps At The Top

[White Ash]

Title: Message



Hi all 
~
 
There's a gap at 
the top of the page in Firefox & Opera, but not in IE.  I would like 
that gap to go away!
 
Then in Firefox 
& Opera, the navigation comes down a bit, and I actually like that!  

 
How to get the best 
of both worlds??!!
 
http://www.frozenblues.com/cbmurphy/index02.php
 
http://www.frozenblues.com/cbmurphy/css/styles02.css
 
Thanks a bunch for 
any and all help!
 
White 
Ash

Re: [WSG] HTML Restructuring of hopkinsprogramming.net

[Terrence Wood]

Joseph R. B. Taylor said:
> I personally would expect the page to appear as any typical printed
> document should.
>
> Page Title (your  element)
> Table of Contents (your  nav list)
> Content (content)

A typical printed document doesn't have a table of contents on every page.
It's usally appears once at the front. In a few thousand years we probably
will have a single interaction model for web pages, but in the meantime,
not everything from the print world translates that well to the digital
one.

kind regards
Terrence Wood.

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site

[Joshua Street]

Ah, righto. Linux user here, apologies... it's obviously simpler on
other desktop systems ;-)

On 2/3/06, Patrick H. Lauke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Joshua Street wrote:
>
> > Also I wasn't aware of way to override browser object settings for PDF
> > files easily -- by all means feel free to correct me, but I doubt very
> > much users do this by 'preference' one way or another.
>
> It's something that need to be set in Acrobat's preferences (under the
> Internet category, uncheck "Display PDF in browser")
>
> P
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Joshua Street wrote:


Also I wasn't aware of way to override browser object settings for PDF
files easily -- by all means feel free to correct me, but I doubt very
much users do this by 'preference' one way or another.


It's something that need to be set in Acrobat's preferences (under the 
Internet category, uncheck "Display PDF in browser")


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site

[Joshua Street]

Yes, it's a good thing. PDF's aren't web pages. This is the
distinction between a web site and a web application: applications are
'expected' to have 'application-like' behaviour (such as new windows,
etc.). Also, PDF content rarely has the _behaviour_ of a web page
(rich hyperlink structures/inbound/outbound links, etc) so to expect
it to appear AS a web page is flawed: there is no way of navigating
out of it but to close the window, or press Back.

Users (correctly, IMO) identify Acrobat as a separate, non-web
application, and hence expect the way to return to web content is to
close Acrobat (i.e. if you've loaded it in a browser, the browser
window). They're not going to look for the Back button here.

Also I wasn't aware of way to override browser object settings for PDF
files easily -- by all means feel free to correct me, but I doubt very
much users do this by 'preference' one way or another.

Josh

On 2/3/06, Stephen Stagg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> On 2 Feb 2006, at 20:57, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
> >  (and ideally force a download via appropriate MIME settings on the
> > server to send it as an octet stream).
>
> Doing so would override the local browser's setting.  Is this 'a good
> thing'?  I would have thought that trying to force the browser to do
> a particular, non-default, action is rather like setting your text-
> size in PX and then writing a script to force Firefox to use those
> font-sizes.
>
> YOU may not like the way that PDFs open in the current window, but if
> that is the case then configure your browser to open Acrobat
> documents in a new window.
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] HTML Restructuring of hopkinsprogramming.net

[Stephen Stagg]

On 2 Feb 2006, at 21:33, Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote:

I personally would expect the page to appear as any typical printed  
document should.





Page Title (your  element)
Table of Contents (your  nav list)
Content (content)



That is a good ethos when designing for monitor-based applications.   
However, a book page can typically display 200-400 words comfortably,  
+ title, + headings + page numbers.  An A4 report, can achieve  
similar word densities.  However a handheld or mobile browser has a  
display area, lower resolution AND probably has a whole load of  
screen estate taken up by the browser controls and gui.  Therefore,  
to expect people to have to scroll past all your navigation elements  
on each page is not the best thing.


It would be worse than printing the table of contents of a report at  
the top of every page of that report.  You would end up with 10 words  
a page but even then, the eye can travel down a page faster than a  
mobile can scroll :).


Stephen
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site

[Stephen Stagg]

On 2 Feb 2006, at 20:57, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
 (and ideally force a download via appropriate MIME settings on the  
server to send it as an octet stream).


Doing so would override the local browser's setting.  Is this 'a good  
thing'?  I would have thought that trying to force the browser to do  
a particular, non-default, action is rather like setting your text- 
size in PX and then writing a script to force Firefox to use those  
font-sizes.


YOU may not like the way that PDFs open in the current window, but if  
that is the case then configure your browser to open Acrobat  
documents in a new window.

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] HTML Restructuring of hopkinsprogramming.net

[Joseph R. B. Taylor]

I personally would expect the page to appear as any typical printed 
document should.


Page Title (your  element)
Table of Contents (your  nav list)
Content (content)

My 2 cents.

Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Terrence Wood wrote:


On 3 Feb 2006, at 4:43 AM, Hopkins Programming wrote:

If there are any of you all who use screen readers or text-only 
browsers on a regular basis, what is your opinion?


 - Do you expect the navigation or content to come first?


Roger and Russ answer this one in their report. In summary, the current 
state of the web is that navigation comes first.



 - Which would you prefer to come first?


I use a text browser on a regular basis (it's really fast - no js, css, 
or images - and I prefer keyboard navigation to save my wrists). I 
prefer content first.


But think about how your page is designed for a moment. If there was no 
CSS, and all you had was HTML, how would you put a page together? Would 
you really have some navigation at the top, some in the middle and some 
at the end, intermixed with your content? There is no other situation 
where the UI is interspersed with the content. One of the big web 
standards ideals is the separation of content and presentation, and at 
the moment I think we are about half way there. Most sites are marked up 
to support the visual design provided by the CSS file.


 - If the content comes first, should there be a "Skip to Navigation" 
link at the top?


Yes, but I suggest if you use a reverse source order layout (content, 
then navigtion) that you label the link as "main navigation" or 
"navigation menu" or similar and drop any reference to 'skip' or 'jump'.


 - Overall, do you believe that the "Content first" principle is a 
valid one?


Yes. It has a number of benefits for a diverse range of devices (e.g. 
screenreaders, handhelds, search engines) and code maintenance. Consider 
this together with my points above.


I'm on record as not entirely accepting Roger, Russ and Lisa's 
recommendations on source order, but that said, I'm not vehemently 
opposed to them either.


HTH

kind regards
Terrence Wood.

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**




**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Call for a new (scalable) business case for web standards.

[Joseph R. B. Taylor]

A point I often bring up is that using standards ensures that anyone can 
 jump in and work on the site (looking forward), the whole 
future-proofing issue, and my personal favorite thing to do is open up 
sites in Firefox and strip off all styles (in the web dev toolbar) to 
show them the squeaky clean informative document that is left behind 
once the presentation layer is removed. Then I show them the tag soup 
site that doesn't change much. That always creates an impression.


Hopefully thats helpful.

Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Jay Gilmore wrote:

Christian,

I wholeheartedly agree with you points but I want to go beyond the 
argument of separation of information and presentation markup.


I am talking about coding using the whole of standards based documents. 
That portion is an easy sell. I am really talking about form and usage 
of semantics, logical content markup (SEO is a good argument here). 
Maybe I am making too much of it and trying to over theorize the issue.


Jay

Jay Gilmore

U)SmashingRed Web & Marketing 
B)Jay Gilmore's SmashingRed Blog 
P) 902.529.0651
E) [EMAIL PROTECTED] 



Christian Montoya wrote:


On 2/2/06, Jay Gilmore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 


I am looking for a way to make small business owners see that they have now
sane alternative but to use web standards, not tell them they will be ahead
of the curve or save $100/year on hosting.
   



I'll think of more arguments later, but I can definitely say:

- CSS and seperation of presentation from content makes updating a
site easier, whether it uses a CMS or not. Tag soup CMS solutions are
usually expensive, whereas a typical CSS based site can be built on
top of a free CMS. More importantly, when the site does not run on a
CMS, it really helps to have clean, semantic code without
presentational markup. I know it's a pain for small businesses to pay
someone to update their website all the time (they usually can't
afford to do it in-house), and even if they still pay someone to
update their CSS based site, at least the updates take less time.

- Also, CSS makes it easy to have the site redesigned in the future,
should it ever be necessary, and if someone gives me a CSS site to
redesign, they'll definitely save a lot of money, considering how few
changes I would probably have to make to the markup.

Pretty much any argument that emphasizes lower maintenance cost is key
for small businesses. SEO is a plus.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**





 





No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.0/248 - Release Date: 2/1/2006

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site

[Joseph R. B. Taylor]

Another option is to copy the text out of the PDF and stick it on the 
page.  I personally hate PDF's on sites (annoying to read).  Especially 
multi-page versions.  Just think how that text would help your page rank 
for that page if it wasn't a PDF...just a thought!


Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Patrick H. Lauke wrote:

Conyers, Dwayne, Mr [C] wrote:


You can embed the PDF with code like this:



Eek...it's already bad enough when a PDF opens in the browser-based 
viewer, rather than the full Acrobat application. I'd say, as it's not a 
web native format, that the best strategy would be to just link to the 
PDF (and ideally force a download via appropriate MIME settings on the 
server to send it as an octet stream).



**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Conyers, Dwayne, Mr [C] wrote:


You can embed the PDF with code like this:


Eek...it's already bad enough when a PDF opens in the browser-based 
viewer, rather than the full Acrobat application. I'd say, as it's not a 
web native format, that the best strategy would be to just link to the 
PDF (and ideally force a download via appropriate MIME settings on the 
server to send it as an octet stream).


--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Standards Savvy Shopping Cart

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Web Man Walking wrote:

I am looking for a web standards friendly shopping cart for an upcoming 
project.  I have had a look but not had much luck, previously used 
CactusASP but the amount of spurious and unnecessary HTML will not have 
me calling again.


TradingEye is quite nice http://www.dpivision.com/products/ even out of 
the box, and fairly quick and easy to customise once you get your head 
around the straightforward templating system and a touch of coldfusion.


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

[WSG] Standards Savvy Shopping Cart

[Web Man Walking]

Title: Standards Savvy Shopping Cart






Hello


I am looking for a web standards friendly shopping cart for an upcoming project.  I have had a look but not had much luck, previously used CactusASP but the amount of spurious and unnecessary HTML will not have me calling again.


Would appreciate any links and/or recommendations.  Thank you.


Regards


Ed Henderson


Web Man Walking - web design & usability experts

t: 0131 669 8800 (local) / 0800 781 2371 (freephone)

m: 0781 253 6964

f: 0797 062 1532

e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

w: web-man-walking.com

a: 48 Eastfield, Edinburgh, EH15 2PN

skype: webmanwalking

msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

"New technology, old fashioned service"

RE: [WSG] PDF files on web site

[Conyers, Dwayne, Mr [C]]

Angus at InfoForce Services ink wired:

> The PDF file is an article to be posted on
> a web site. What is the best web standard 
> approach and instructions 

You can embed the PDF with code like this:

[object 
classid="clsid:CA8A9780-280D-11CF-A24D-44455354" 
width=??? 
height=??? 
id=myPDF] 

[param name="SRC" value="myPDF.pdf"]
[/object]



-- 
Dwacon
www.dwacon.com
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Angus at InfoForce Services wrote:
This is probvably off topic for this list so please reply to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] I hav a nine page PDF file loaded into 
Acrobat 7.0. And when I try "File" /Save as text" the text file is not 
good. 


Define "not good".

If it's "the text is all over the place", this could well be caused by 
an untagged PDF with missing hints for reading order (if it's a 
multi-column article).



--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

[WSG] PDF files on web site

[Angus at InfoForce Services]

This is probvably off topic for this list so please reply to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] I hav a nine page PDF file loaded into Acrobat 
7.0. And when I try "File" /Save as text" the text file is not good. The PDF 
file is an article to be posted on a web site. What is the best web standard 
approach and instructions on what to do (please)? Is there a Windows XP Home 
SP2 software conversion program or utility to download and install?




Angus MacKinnon
MacKinnon Crest Saying
Latin -  Audentes Fortuna Juvat
English - Fortune Assists The Daring
Web page http://www.infoforce-services.com
Choroideremia Research Foundation Inc. 2nd Vice president
http://www.choroideremia.org

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] HTML Restructuring of hopkinsprogramming.net

[Terrence Wood]

On 3 Feb 2006, at 4:43 AM, Hopkins Programming wrote:

If there are any of you all who use screen readers or text-only 
browsers on a regular basis, what is your opinion?


 - Do you expect the navigation or content to come first?
Roger and Russ answer this one in their report. In summary, the current 
state of the web is that navigation comes first.



 - Which would you prefer to come first?
I use a text browser on a regular basis (it's really fast - no js, css, 
or images - and I prefer keyboard navigation to save my wrists). I 
prefer content first.


But think about how your page is designed for a moment. If there was no 
CSS, and all you had was HTML, how would you put a page together? Would 
you really have some navigation at the top, some in the middle and some 
at the end, intermixed with your content? There is no other situation 
where the UI is interspersed with the content. One of the big web 
standards ideals is the separation of content and presentation, and at 
the moment I think we are about half way there. Most sites are marked 
up to support the visual design provided by the CSS file.


 - If the content comes first, should there be a "Skip to Navigation" 
link at the top?
Yes, but I suggest if you use a reverse source order layout (content, 
then navigtion) that you label the link as "main navigation" or 
"navigation menu" or similar and drop any reference to 'skip' or 
'jump'.


 - Overall, do you believe that the "Content first" principle is a 
valid one?
Yes. It has a number of benefits for a diverse range of devices (e.g. 
screenreaders, handhelds, search engines) and code maintenance. 
Consider this together with my points above.


I'm on record as not entirely accepting Roger, Russ and Lisa's 
recommendations on source order, but that said, I'm not vehemently 
opposed to them either.


HTH

kind regards
Terrence Wood.

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Call for a new (scalable) business case for web standards.

[Jay Gilmore]

Christian, 

I wholeheartedly agree with you points but I want to go beyond the
argument of separation of information and presentation markup. 

I am talking about coding using the whole of standards based documents.
That portion is an easy sell. I am really talking about form and usage
of semantics, logical content markup (SEO is a good argument here).
Maybe I am making too much of it and trying to over theorize the issue.

Jay


Jay Gilmore

U)SmashingRed Web & Marketing
B)Jay Gilmore's SmashingRed
Blog
P) 902.529.0651
E) [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Christian Montoya wrote:

  On 2/2/06, Jay Gilmore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  
  
 I am looking for a way to make small business owners see that they have now
sane alternative but to use web standards, not tell them they will be ahead
of the curve or save $100/year on hosting.

  
  
I'll think of more arguments later, but I can definitely say:

- CSS and seperation of presentation from content makes updating a
site easier, whether it uses a CMS or not. Tag soup CMS solutions are
usually expensive, whereas a typical CSS based site can be built on
top of a free CMS. More importantly, when the site does not run on a
CMS, it really helps to have clean, semantic code without
presentational markup. I know it's a pain for small businesses to pay
someone to update their website all the time (they usually can't
afford to do it in-house), and even if they still pay someone to
update their CSS based site, at least the updates take less time.

- Also, CSS makes it easy to have the site redesigned in the future,
should it ever be necessary, and if someone gives me a CSS site to
redesign, they'll definitely save a lot of money, considering how few
changes I would probably have to make to the markup.

Pretty much any argument that emphasizes lower maintenance cost is key
for small businesses. SEO is a plus.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**





  

[WSG] "cool" FAQ page [follow up]

[Thierry Koblentz]

Following a "bug report" (not in the script, but in a browser), I have made
a few changes to the original solution; it now uses images and seems to work
in everything but Opera 6.05.

http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/toggle_elements.asp

Regards,
Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Call for a new (scalable) business case for web standards.

[Christian Montoya]

On 2/2/06, Jay Gilmore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  I am looking for a way to make small business owners see that they have now
> sane alternative but to use web standards, not tell them they will be ahead
> of the curve or save $100/year on hosting.

I'll think of more arguments later, but I can definitely say:

- CSS and seperation of presentation from content makes updating a
site easier, whether it uses a CMS or not. Tag soup CMS solutions are
usually expensive, whereas a typical CSS based site can be built on
top of a free CMS. More importantly, when the site does not run on a
CMS, it really helps to have clean, semantic code without
presentational markup. I know it's a pain for small businesses to pay
someone to update their website all the time (they usually can't
afford to do it in-house), and even if they still pay someone to
update their CSS based site, at least the updates take less time.

- Also, CSS makes it easy to have the site redesigned in the future,
should it ever be necessary, and if someone gives me a CSS site to
redesign, they'll definitely save a lot of money, considering how few
changes I would probably have to make to the markup.

Pretty much any argument that emphasizes lower maintenance cost is key
for small businesses. SEO is a plus.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] HTML Restructuring of hopkinsprogramming.net

[Hopkins Programming]

If there are any of you all who use screen readers or text-only browsers on a regular basis, what is your opinion?

- Do you expect the navigation or content to come first?
- Which would you prefer to come first?
- If the content comes first, should there be a "Skip to Navigation" link at the top?
- Overall, do you believe that the "Content first" principle is a valid one?

--Zachary
On 2/1/06, Terrence Wood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hopkins Programming said:> [is it] better that the content all comes first?Mark Pilgrim [1], Sarah Horton (of Web Style Guide Fame, in her latestbook) and others say it is.Roger Hudson, WSG's very own Russ Weakley, and Lisa Miller say that it isn't.
[1]:http://diveintoaccessibility.org/day_10_presenting_your_main_content_first.html[2]: 
http://www.usability.com.au/resources/source-order.cfm**The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**
-- =="The best way to predict the future is to invent it."  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.hopkinsprogramming.net

[WSG] Call for a new (scalable) business case for web standards.

[Jay Gilmore]

Hi WSG'rs, 

I want to put the call out for submissions for a business case for
web standards for small business. I have reviewed a number of
articles (referenced below) to find some compelling argument for web
standards that could be communicated to the small business community. 

Currently several arguments for web standards include the following as
the main focus:

*Faster development time (unless the competition uses software that
creates tag soup and can synchronize site wide libraries and SSI's)
*Better cross browser compatibility (small business view this as how
the site looks, pixel-perfect, identical)
*Easier maintenance (can;t use the software they bought to maintain the
site: easier to make a case for a CMS)
*lighter bandwidth usage (this matters little to the short-view small
business owner looking and cash flow for the quarter on their site that
gets 1000 impressions per month)

My problem with such arguments is that they don't scale to small
business well. Most small business look at a website as an end in
itself and not a means to an end which it should be. 

Small business wants it done fast and to look as they imagine it to and
not to suck from a user perspective. 

Small business usually doesn't consider maintenance as a deciding
factor as they look at price, technology, and style before they
consider whether anyone will have to maintain it. And the big one that
cannot scale is bandwidth and that is because small business doesn't
care about bandwidth  -- they just care if their page is up and works.
They can't see that if they have compound growth that they will suffer
at the hand of error messages, and up charges on their hosting. And why
should they? They are trying to run a business, many as CEO and CTO and
VP Marketing and everything else (like me). They cannot consider
anything else but the results that effect business process, cash flow
or sales. 

So here is the question: 

What are the benefits of web standards for small business that can be
sufficiently measured in results for the business both in the long and
short term?

and a second question is 

How do we, as a group start to bring the message to the masses?

Articles reviewed in the process of thinking about this subject:
http://www.molly.com/2005/11/14/web-standards-and-the-new-professionalism/
http://www.websitegoodies.com/article/38
http://www.adaptivepath.com/publications/essays/archives/000266.php
http://webstandards.org/learn/reference/web_standards_for_business.html
http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/The_Business_Benefits_of_Web_Standards

After I wrote the above post I did find the following article useful.It
answers some of the questions I pose but again it is speaking the wrong
language to the wrong crowd for me:
http://www.maccaws.org/kit/way-forward/

I am looking for a way to make small business owners see that they have
now sane alternative but to use web standards, not tell them they will
be ahead of the curve or save $100/year on hosting.

All the best,

Jay
-- 

Jay Gilmore

U)SmashingRed Web & Marketing
B)Jay Gilmore's SmashingRed
Blog
P) 902.529.0651
E) [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [WSG] Which unit is better for web site font size?

[Hopkins Programming]

Use em or %.

Em is probably the best, but since IE6 has font-size:large as the
default, using font-size:1em for the body makes stuff look big in IE.
I usually use %'s.  These work well, like the em, but it compensates for IE's larger-than-normal font size.

--ZacharyOn 2/2/06, Roberto Santana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
thanks, very interesting article.Regards,R. Santanaalejandro poch escribió:> Hi Roberto>> Take a look at W3C tips "Care With Font Size">> 
http://www.w3.org/QA/Tips/font-size>> Salu2 Roberto Santana wrote:>>> Hello, Which unit is better for web site font size? em px % ...
 Thanks!>> Roberto Santana **>> The discussion list for  
http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm>> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
>> **>> **> The discussion list for  
http://webstandardsgroup.org/>> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **>>htank**The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**
-- =="The best way to predict the future is to invent it."  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.hopkinsprogramming.net

Re: [WSG] Which unit is better for web site font size?

[Roberto Santana]

thanks, very interesting article.

Regards,
R. Santana

alejandro poch escribió:


Hi Roberto

Take a look at W3C tips "Care With Font Size"

http://www.w3.org/QA/Tips/font-size

Salu2



Roberto Santana wrote:


Hello,

Which unit is better for web site font size? em px % ...

Thanks!
Roberto Santana






**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**


 



**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**



htank
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] css/html snippets

[Wendy]

Pete,

You've seen this, right?

http://snippetz.net/

Cheers,
Wendy

Peter Ottery wrote:

I *think* what i'm talking about it different. i'm just thinking more
along the lines of a library of cut'n'paste chunks of re-usable code..



  

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Which unit is better for web site font size?

[alejandro poch]

Hi Roberto

Take a look at W3C tips "Care With Font Size"

http://www.w3.org/QA/Tips/font-size

Salu2



Roberto Santana wrote:


Hello,

Which unit is better for web site font size? em px % ...

Thanks!
Roberto Santana





**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**


 



**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Holy Grail - with padding!

[Designer]

Thierry Koblentz wrote:


Something like this:
http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/3cols/ ?

 




Marvellous!  Yes - exactly like that!  Thanks for sharing.

Bob McClelland
Cornwall (U.K.)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**