[WSG] please help me understand how Opera (9.5) deals with em, % and pixel
Is it just me kept running into issues with Opera? I really don't
remember having these problems so obvious with pre-version 9.5 that I
can't tolerate. I am getting this impression that the evolution of
Opera has come to an end and now it's rapidly reversing back to the
buggy primitive state that it almost mimics IE 6's behavior and the
worse, I don't have a conditional comment to make it works better.
From some articles I have read, I got a sense that Opera folks are
very proud of the CSS3 spec achievement, but my take is, if I have to
make double effort to have my layout render just slightly closer to FF
and Safari, I can't afford to care all those shiny CSS3 attributes and
Selectors. What is more aggravating is that it's less than 3%
population that needs to support.
I still have not fixed the problem I have had from my previous post
(and still can't figure why the link and text are not clickable/
selectable), now I am seeing another two little problem.
In this link, it illustrates two issues: the screen shots on the right
are taken from Opera, as you can see, the background image drops to
the bottom in the breadcrumbs.
http://lotusseedsdesign.com/opera-test/opera-has-issue.png
And the button, it works likes IE does, the difference is that IE
doubles the width and Opera doubles the height.
My font size declared in the body tag:
font: normal 100.1%/1.5em
Obviously Opera got it wrong again somewhere with em and pixel
calculation. Is this another new bug or something so old that never
got fixed ?
And here is another Opera problem I stumbled few days ago when I was
doing Opera bug hunting:
The page uses Prototype Glider script:
http://marinersq.com/index.php?id=50
In Opera, you will see clicking the snapshot on the left changes
nothing.
Turn out I goofed, I forgot to load the script in the page (time
wasted: over 24 hours):
script type=text/javascript
var my_glider = new Glider('glider', {duration:0.5, frequency: 4});
/script
But the fact that page still works (except without glider effect) in
all other browsers make me think this is just another bug of Opera.
Here is the working page with glider script loaded.
http://marinersq.com/meet_trainers.html
if you go to homepage of the site, you will see another Opera opacity
bug.
tee
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Re: [WSG] please help me understand how Opera (9.5) deals with em, % and pixel
tee wrote:
Is it just me kept running into issues with Opera? I really don't
remember having these problems so obvious with pre-version 9.5 that I
can't tolerate. I am getting this impression that the evolution of Opera
has come to an end and now it's rapidly reversing back to the buggy
primitive state that it almost mimics IE 6's behavior and the worse, I
don't have a conditional comment to make it works better. From some
articles I have read, I got a sense that Opera folks are very proud of
the CSS3 spec achievement, but my take is, if I have to make double
effort to have my layout render just slightly closer to FF and Safari, I
can't afford to care all those shiny CSS3 attributes and Selectors. What
is more aggravating is that it's less than 3% population that needs to
support.
Not the first time Opera, or any browser, goes into regression - or
worse. Lack of extensive real-world testing, I guess.
I can see that Opera is weakening on a few points that matters to me,
but generally the latest versions (9.5x 9.60b) haven't created any
real problems.
Good thing Opera is hard to hack, or else those regressions might end up
being pretty permanent - as in IE. Might make it easier for some, but
not for progress.
Better to ignore those 3% or whatever if you can't make it work,
although I'm not sure Opera's performance is to blame for all your problems.
I still have not fixed the problem I have had from my previous post (and
still can't figure why the link and text are not clickable/selectable),
now I am seeing another two little problem.
In this link, it illustrates two issues: the screen shots on the right
are taken from Opera, as you can see, the background image drops to the
bottom in the breadcrumbs.
http://lotusseedsdesign.com/opera-test/opera-has-issue.png
And the button, it works likes IE does, the difference is that IE
doubles the width and Opera doubles the height.
My font size declared in the body tag:
font: normal 100.1%/1.5em
Obviously Opera got it wrong again somewhere with em and pixel
calculation. Is this another new bug or something so old that never got
fixed ?
Have no thread/post to look at for debugging. What page(s) (links)
present the problem?
And here is another Opera problem I stumbled few days ago when I was
doing Opera bug hunting:
The page uses Prototype Glider script:
http://marinersq.com/index.php?id=50
In Opera, you will see clicking the snapshot on the left changes nothing.
Turn out I goofed, I forgot to load the script in the page (time wasted:
over 24 hours):
script type=text/javascript
var my_glider = new Glider('glider', {duration:0.5, frequency: 4});
/script
But the fact that page still works (except without glider effect) in all
other browsers make me think this is just another bug of Opera.
Confirming that. Opera before 9.50 beta supported effects like that,
without scripting. No go in later Opera versions.
Example: http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/moa_25e.html
Here is the working page with glider script loaded.
http://marinersq.com/meet_trainers.html
if you go to homepage of the site, you will see another Opera opacity bug.
I see problems in that page, but even after side-by-side comparison with
Fx3.0.1 I can't see opacity problems. Care to explain? You can mail me
off-list if it becomes long-ish.
regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no
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Re: [WSG] please help me understand how Opera (9.5) deals with em, % and pixel
Hi Georg, very nice to 'see' you :) http://lotusseedsdesign.com/opera-test/opera-has-issue.png I am narrowing down to the % and em that are causing many problems I have encountered. The site is in my localhost therefor I can't post it, but I will move it to a webserver maybe tomorrow or in the weekend, and email you the url (can't show the site to public) as I have stumbled 3 more issues after my post. I see problems in that page, but even after side-by-side comparison with Fx3.0.1 I can't see opacity problems. Care to explain? You can mail me off-list if it becomes long-ish. http://marinersq.com Sorry, the opacity bug is in the homepage, the large slide show. When the image pan out, it turns to semi-transparent and fading, but Opera shows a solid image. I reported this before and talked to the author who wrote the slideshow script, he couldn't figure out even though he was very keen to fix it. Re the unclickable and unselectable issue, here is the page. http://lotusseedsdesign.com/opera-test/opera.html Bruno wrote he has no problem selecting the content and clicking the link 'go there'. I trashed my Opera from both Mac and PC version (via Parallels), re- installed it but the problem doesn't go away. I am also seeing the same behavior (links not clickable) in the site I was working in my local server. I figure it must be something to do with %, pixel and em units I have for font size, margins, padding, width and line-height and Opera isn't smart enough to do the math. Though very unlikely, I have started thinking maybe the problem occurs because I have more than 1 classes declared in a div. http://lotusseedsdesign.com/opera-test/opera.html http://lotusseedsdesign.com/opera-test/ss1.png (this screenshot just show that I cannot select page content in Opera) Version:9.52 Build: 4916 Platform Mac OS X System: 10.5.4 Also, in the above page, do you know which checkbox/radio button is the correct rendering in Opera? tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Learning Javascript properly
Hi all, I really want to get stuck in and learn Javascript properly, and by this I mean not filling my page with onclick and sending hrefs to #. But instead abstracting it all into the .js file and keeping my markup clean. I've followed the book by Jeremy Keith called DOM Scripting which teaches just that but it only goes so far. Everywhere else I look seems to have all the old school techniques which I want to shy away from. Does anyone have any resources? Thanks so much Simon *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Learning Javascript properly
I think that is going to depend a lot on what you are trying to do with your JS knowledge: are we talking about animation, AJAX or something entirely different? Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Simon Sent: 18 September 2008 16:02 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Learning Javascript properly Hi all, I really want to get stuck in and learn Javascript properly, and by this I mean not filling my page with onclick and sending hrefs to #. But instead abstracting it all into the .js file and keeping my markup clean. I've followed the book by Jeremy Keith called DOM Scripting which teaches just that but it only goes so far. Everywhere else I look seems to have all the old school techniques which I want to shy away from. Does anyone have any resources? Thanks so much Simon *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Learning Javascript properly
Well I could suggest AdvancED DOM Scripting but I'm a little biased since I wrote it :) -- Jeffrey Sambells PHP5 Zend Certified Engineer On 18-Sep-08, at 11:01 AM, Simon wrote: Hi all, I really want to get stuck in and learn Javascript properly, and by this I mean not filling my page with onclick and sending hrefs to #. But instead abstracting it all into the .js file and keeping my markup clean. I've followed the book by Jeremy Keith called DOM Scripting which teaches just that but it only goes so far. Everywhere else I look seems to have all the old school techniques which I want to shy away from. Does anyone have any resources? Thanks so much Simon *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Learning Javascript properly
Simon, Get into jQuery man. Plain old javascript just doesn't cut it. Best library I have used. Bit of a learning curve but well worth getting your head around. Have fun: http://jquery.com/ Regards Aubrey Simon wrote: Hi all, I really want to get stuck in and learn Javascript properly, and by this I mean not filling my page with onclick and sending hrefs to #. But instead abstracting it all into the .js file and keeping my markup clean. I've followed the book by Jeremy Keith called DOM Scripting which teaches just that but it only goes so far. Everywhere else I look seems to have all the old school techniques which I want to shy away from. Does anyone have any resources? Thanks so much Simon *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***begin:vcard fn:Aubrey Morrell n:Morrell;Aubrey org:ambiguousmoose adr:Beverley;;28 Mace View;;East Yorkshire;HU17 8YP;England email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] tel;home:01482 880021 tel;cell:07952 314 823 url:www.ambiguousmoose.co.uk version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: [WSG] Learning Javascript properly
I've been trying to convince people here at work to use JQuery for UI, but most are reluctant, because it's a framework. Any good arguments of Why it is still OK to use JQuery? Anya V. Gerasimchuk Web Designer, IT - Web Shared Services UNIFI Information Technology [EMAIL PROTECTED] (513) 595 -2391 Aubrey Morrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 09/18/2008 12:04 PM Please respond to wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To wsg@webstandardsgroup.org cc Subject Re: [WSG] Learning Javascript properly Simon, Get into jQuery man. Plain old javascript just doesn't cut it. Best library I have used. Bit of a learning curve but well worth getting your head around. Have fun: http://jquery.com/ Regards Aubrey Simon wrote: Hi all, I really want to get stuck in and learn Javascript properly, and by this I mean not filling my page with onclick and sending hrefs to #. But instead abstracting it all into the .js file and keeping my markup clean. I've followed the book by Jeremy Keith called DOM Scripting which teaches just that but it only goes so far. Everywhere else I look seems to have all the old school techniques which I want to shy away from. Does anyone have any resources? Thanks so much Simon *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***[attachment aubrey.vcf deleted by Anya Gerasimchuk/UnionCentral] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Learning Javascript properly
Anya, It just makes good business sense, If you can write what would normally take 40 lines of code to do and can condense it to a half dozen. That's reason enough for me. Today's customers are demanding a lot more for less so if you can do something in half the time - why not. Regards Aubrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've been trying to convince people here at work to use JQuery for UI, but most are reluctant, because it's a framework. Any good arguments of Why it is still OK to use JQuery? Anya V. Gerasimchuk Web Designer, IT - Web Shared Services UNIFI Information Technology [EMAIL PROTECTED] (513) 595 -2391 *Aubrey Morrell [EMAIL PROTECTED]* Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 09/18/2008 12:04 PM Please respond to wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To wsg@webstandardsgroup.org cc Subject Re: [WSG] Learning Javascript properly Simon, Get into jQuery man. Plain old javascript just doesn't cut it. Best library I have used. Bit of a learning curve but well worth getting your head around. Have fun: http://jquery.com/ Regards Aubrey Simon wrote: Hi all, I really want to get stuck in and learn Javascript properly, and by this I mean not filling my page with onclick and sending hrefs to #. But instead abstracting it all into the .js file and keeping my markup clean. I've followed the book by Jeremy Keith called DOM Scripting which teaches just that but it only goes so far. Everywhere else I look seems to have all the old school techniques which I want to shy away from. Does anyone have any resources? Thanks so much Simon *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***[attachment aubrey.vcf deleted by Anya Gerasimchuk/UnionCentral] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***begin:vcard fn:Aubrey Morrell n:Morrell;Aubrey org:ambiguousmoose adr:Beverley;;28 Mace View;;East Yorkshire;HU17 8YP;England email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] tel;home:01482 880021 tel;cell:07952 314 823 url:www.ambiguousmoose.co.uk version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: [WSG] Learning Javascript properly
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've been trying to convince people here at work to use JQuery for UI, but most are reluctant, because it's a framework. They are reluctant because it has prewritten code to handle a bunch of common tasks that lots of people want to do (and, as a result, is robuster then most homebrew things because it has more eyes spotting problems and fixing bugs)? Any good arguments of Why it is still OK to use JQuery? It's a framework should be a good one. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] FeedBack Form Spam
Marvin Hunkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] ink wired: i keep getting spam e-mails. snip how do i protect my self against this sort of thing. Human-only precautions such as a CAPTHA for form entry helps, as does some anti-spam features on your web server. However, my server gets hammered with thousands of spam a day... and I got so frustrated with that sort of thing that I changed my feedback form to a text field that saved the contents into a CSV file. Bots and other spam bounced harmlessly away. However, would you believe people HAND TYPED spam into the form? Who has that kind of time on their hands? Oh... yeah... spammers. Now, the only form of contact I accept is snail mail. Not many scammers will pay 42¢ to spam you... -- I made magic once. Now the sofa is gone. http://blog.dwacon.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Learning Javascript properly
I agree. Also I think their argument is that frameworks change, and if that happens, we are going to be stuck with what we had before... Anya V. Gerasimchuk Web Designer, IT - Web Shared Services UNIFI Information Technology [EMAIL PROTECTED] (513) 595 -2391 Aubrey Morrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 09/18/2008 12:31 PM Please respond to wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To wsg@webstandardsgroup.org cc Subject Re: [WSG] Learning Javascript properly Anya, It just makes good business sense, If you can write what would normally take 40 lines of code to do and can condense it to a half dozen. That's reason enough for me. Today's customers are demanding a lot more for less so if you can do something in half the time - why not. Regards Aubrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've been trying to convince people here at work to use JQuery for UI, but most are reluctant, because it's a framework. Any good arguments of Why it is still OK to use JQuery? Anya V. Gerasimchuk Web Designer, IT - Web Shared Services UNIFI Information Technology [EMAIL PROTECTED] (513) 595 -2391 *Aubrey Morrell [EMAIL PROTECTED]* Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 09/18/2008 12:04 PM Please respond to wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To wsg@webstandardsgroup.org cc Subject Re: [WSG] Learning Javascript properly Simon, Get into jQuery man. Plain old javascript just doesn't cut it. Best library I have used. Bit of a learning curve but well worth getting your head around. Have fun: http://jquery.com/ Regards Aubrey Simon wrote: Hi all, I really want to get stuck in and learn Javascript properly, and by this I mean not filling my page with onclick and sending hrefs to #. But instead abstracting it all into the .js file and keeping my markup clean. I've followed the book by Jeremy Keith called DOM Scripting which teaches just that but it only goes so far. Everywhere else I look seems to have all the old school techniques which I want to shy away from. Does anyone have any resources? Thanks so much Simon *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***[attachment aubrey.vcf deleted by Anya Gerasimchuk/UnionCentral] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***[attachment aubrey.vcf deleted by Anya Gerasimchuk/UnionCentral] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Learning Javascript properly
What I learn from JQuery community is that it is quite stable, BC and consistent. It saves me a lot of headaches when dealing with weird behaviors of different browsers including bad ones: IE6 or IE7. If anyone want to write JavaScript from the scratch, he will encounter a lot of problem, especially working with IE. JavaScript is not a technology like PHP or Java when their compilers and runtime engines are responsible for making applications portable across different platforms. With JavaScript you need to be familiar yourself with browsers, which are actual platforms. If there is something that makes your JavaScript code portable, it is such a JavaScript library like JQuery. pcdinh On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 11:34 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree. Also I think their argument is that frameworks change, and if that happens, we are going to be stuck with what we had before... Anya V. Gerasimchuk Web Designer, IT - Web Shared Services UNIFI Information Technology [EMAIL PROTECTED] (513) 595 -2391 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] please help me understand how Opera (9.5) deals with em, % and pixel
tee wrote: Hi Georg, very nice to 'see' you :) :-) http://lotusseedsdesign.com/opera-test/opera-has-issue.png I am narrowing down to the % and em that are causing many problems I have encountered. The site is in my localhost therefor I can't post it, but I will move it to a webserver maybe tomorrow or in the weekend, and email you the url (can't show the site to public) as I have stumbled 3 more issues after my post. Some of Opera's '%' and 'em' issues are old as , and should have been fixed half a decade ago. I'll see if any of those issues are creating problems for you when I get the page for debugging. Problem in debugging is that I can't recreate the exact conditions of OS and parallels you use. Should be able to improve things for the average end-user though - to the degree Opera is willing to cooperate. I see problems in that page, but even after side-by-side comparison with Fx3.0.1 I can't see opacity problems. Care to explain? You can mail me off-list if it becomes long-ish. http://marinersq.com Sorry, the opacity bug is in the homepage, the large slide show. I looked at the correct page first time around, but couldn't decide what intended rendering-effects should be. Looked a bit challenged in all my browsers. When the image pan out, it turns to semi-transparent and fading, but Opera shows a solid image. Indeed. Opera starts fading too late and behaves as if it it hangs on fading at cross-points. I reported this before and talked to the author who wrote the slideshow script, he couldn't figure out even though he was very keen to fix it. Something for those at Opera, me thinks. Looks like an excellent real-world test case. Re the unclickable and unselectable issue, here is the page. http://lotusseedsdesign.com/opera-test/opera.html Bruno wrote he has no problem selecting the content and clicking the link 'go there'. No problems with select or functions in Opera 9.20 --- 9.60beta versions on win2K or winXP at my end. I trashed my Opera from both Mac and PC version (via Parallels), re-installed it but the problem doesn't go away. I am also seeing the same behavior (links not clickable) in the site I was working in my local server. I figure it must be something to do with %, pixel and em units I have for font size, margins, padding, width and line-height and Opera isn't smart enough to do the math. Sounds like a problem in the relationship between Opera and MacOSX, and I've quit updating/using Mac so can't test. Though very unlikely, I have started thinking maybe the problem occurs because I have more than 1 classes declared in a div. Never observed any multiple classes problems in Opera. Don't think there are any. Also, in the above page, do you know which checkbox/radio button is the correct rendering in Opera? When 'Enable Styling On Forms' is checked (default) in 'opera:config', all instances of checkbox/radio button in your page look like in your image in Opera 9.20 --- 9.60beta version on win2K. In Opera on winXP the colored area of checkbox is smaller - the size of unstyled checkbox, and therefore bordered area wider than colored area with white space in the gap. How far you style those elements should have no effect on function. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Learning Javascript properly
Does anyone have any resources? I highly recommend Douglas Crockford's lectures on JavaScript: http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/theater/ * The JavaScript Programming Language * An Inconvenient API: The Theory of the DOM * Advanced JavaScript Douglas also wrote a very good book JavaScript: The Good Parts. I also liked Pro JavaScript Techniques by John Resig (jQuery author) and Pro JavaScript Design Patterns by Ross Harmes and Dustin Diaz. -- Stepan *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
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Re: [WSG] Learning Javascript properly
jQuery is really good because, unlike some other frameworks, it doesn't lock you into its little world. You're still coding in javascript, and jQuery is just a really handy set of functions to help you out with just the really frustrating parts. It's really important to use a framework nowadays because of the vast gulf there is in the behavior between the different browsers. Frameworks eliminate hours of debugging by presenting just a single simple interface to do many common tasks, that someone else has already debugged to work cross browser. In my opinion, it should be difficult to argue AGAINST using a framework, simply because frameworks save so much time - and time is money! What are the arguments against using a framework? If there's something about frameworks' that just rubs your colleagues the wrong way, perhaps look into base2.js, IE7.js and IE8.js by Dean Edwards. They're basically implementations of the standard w3c dom interfaces, such that if a browser doesn't support the standard correctly, his framework fills in the gap. With that, there's no visible signs of a framework, just a consistant cross browser dom api. That's the basic principle anyway. I haven't tried it, myself, so I can't tell you how well it really works. On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 2:09 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've been trying to convince people here at work to use JQuery for UI, but most are reluctant, because it's a framework. Any good arguments of Why it is still OK to use JQuery? Anya V. Gerasimchuk Web Designer, IT - Web Shared Services UNIFI Information Technology [EMAIL PROTECTED] (513) 595 -2391 Aubrey Morrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 09/18/2008 12:04 PM Please respond to wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To wsg@webstandardsgroup.org cc Subject Re: [WSG] Learning Javascript properly Simon, Get into jQuery man. Plain old javascript just doesn't cut it. Best library I have used. Bit of a learning curve but well worth getting your head around. Have fun: http://jquery.com/ Regards Aubrey Simon wrote: Hi all, I really want to get stuck in and learn Javascript properly, and by this I mean not filling my page with onclick and sending hrefs to #. But instead abstracting it all into the .js file and keeping my markup clean. I've followed the book by Jeremy Keith called DOM Scripting which teaches just that but it only goes so far. Everywhere else I look seems to have all the old school techniques which I want to shy away from. Does anyone have any resources? Thanks so much Simon *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***[attachment aubrey.vcf deleted by Anya Gerasimchuk/UnionCentral] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Learning Javascript properly
Thanks for all your replies, I'm getting stuck into jQuery and it seems pretty good! Cheers -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Breton Slivka Sent: 18 September 2008 22:53 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Learning Javascript properly jQuery is really good because, unlike some other frameworks, it doesn't lock you into its little world. You're still coding in javascript, and jQuery is just a really handy set of functions to help you out with just the really frustrating parts. It's really important to use a framework nowadays because of the vast gulf there is in the behavior between the different browsers. Frameworks eliminate hours of debugging by presenting just a single simple interface to do many common tasks, that someone else has already debugged to work cross browser. In my opinion, it should be difficult to argue AGAINST using a framework, simply because frameworks save so much time - and time is money! What are the arguments against using a framework? If there's something about frameworks' that just rubs your colleagues the wrong way, perhaps look into base2.js, IE7.js and IE8.js by Dean Edwards. They're basically implementations of the standard w3c dom interfaces, such that if a browser doesn't support the standard correctly, his framework fills in the gap. With that, there's no visible signs of a framework, just a consistant cross browser dom api. That's the basic principle anyway. I haven't tried it, myself, so I can't tell you how well it really works. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Learning JavaScript properly
I can personally vouch for Simply JavaScript by Sitepoint. Very good book for the beginner level. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keryx Web Sent: Friday, 19 September 2008 8:52 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Learning Javascript properly Simon skrev: Hi all, I really want to get stuck in and learn Javascript properly, Learn the basics first - then libraries: http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200701/learn_javascript_before_tasting _the_library_koolaid/ Mozilla Developer Central is a nice resource. All Sitepoint books are great as well. PPK's books i also very good. Lars Gunther *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3451 (20080918) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.21/1670 - Release Date: 17/09/2008 5:07 PM __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3451 (20080918) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: RE: [WSG] Learning JavaScript properly
I can vouch for Simply JavaScript by Sitepoint as well. I used it in combination with some of their other javascript books. William Design [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can personally vouch for Simply JavaScript by Sitepoint. Very good book for the beginner level. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keryx Web Sent: Friday, 19 September 2008 8:52 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Learning Javascript properly Simon skrev: Hi all, I really want to get stuck in and learn Javascript properly, Learn the basics first - then libraries: http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200701/learn_javascript_before_tast ing _the_library_koolaid/ Mozilla Developer Central is a nice resource. All Sitepoint books are great as well. PPK's books i also very good. Lars Gunther *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3451 (20080918) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.21/1670 - Release Date: 17/09/2008 5:07 PM __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3451 (20080918) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Learning JavaScript properly
I've been using 'Javascript: A Beginner's Guide' (2nd Edition) by John Pollock and have found that pretty useful. - susie On 19/09/08 11:34 AM, William Donovan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can vouch for Simply JavaScript by Sitepoint as well. I used it in combination with some of their other javascript books. William Design [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can personally vouch for Simply JavaScript by Sitepoint. Very good book for the beginner level. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keryx Web Sent: Friday, 19 September 2008 8:52 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Learning Javascript properly Simon skrev: Hi all, I really want to get stuck in and learn Javascript properly, Learn the basics first - then libraries: http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200701/learn_javascript_before_tast ing _the_library_koolaid/ Mozilla Developer Central is a nice resource. All Sitepoint books are great as well. PPK's books i also very good. Lars Gunther *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3451 (20080918) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.21/1670 - Release Date: 17/09/2008 5:07 PM __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3451 (20080918) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Learning Javascript properly
I've been trying to convince people here at work to use JQuery for UI, but most are reluctant, because it's a framework. Any good arguments of Why it is still OK to use JQuery? jQuery is not really a framework. jQuery is a library of javascript functions. The fact that they have a synonym to the main jquery function called '$' makes some people think that you are no longer coding in javascript. The reality is that you can code javascript and jQuery function calls together. It's just a library. A framework means you have some configuration file that the application constructs itself around. This is called inversion of control. I have never seen this done in any javascript application. An example of inversion of control would be Struts or Spring in Java. Your co-workers have nothing to fear. Best regards, Kepler Gelotte Neighbor Webmaster, Inc. 156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854 http://www.neighborwebmaster.com www.neighborwebmaster.com phone/fax: (732) 302-0904 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Gelotte;Kepler;;Mr. FN:Kepler Gelotte ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ORG:Neighbor Webmaster TITLE:Web Designer TEL;WORK;VOICE:(732) 302-0904 TEL;WORK;FAX:(732) 302-0904 ADR;WORK:;;156 Normandy Dr;Piscataway;NJ;08854;United States of America LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:156 Normandy Dr=0D=0APiscataway, NJ 08854=0D=0AUnited States of America URL;WORK:http://www.neighborwebmaster.com EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED] REV:20070415T052107Z END:VCARD
RE: [WSG] Learning Javascript properly
I've been trying to convince people here at work to use JQuery for UI... Are there any takes on JQuery vs. Mootools? Easier? More compatible? Less filesize? Thanks! Cheers, Jens The information contained in this e-mail message and any accompanying files is or may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, dissemination, reliance, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail or any attached files is unauthorised. This e-mail is subject to copyright. No part of it should be reproduced, adapted or communicated without the written consent of the copyright owner. If you have received this e-mail in error please advise the sender immediately by return e-mail or telephone and delete all copies. Fairfax does not guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained in this e-mail or attached files. Internet communications are not secure, therefore Fairfax does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message or attached files. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
