Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
How about:
titleThe Times/title
h1Homepage/h1
h2There's water on mars/h2
titleThe Times/title
h1Financial stuff/h1
h2Redmond stock going down further/h2
etc...
Where would one fit in a company logo? Wouldn't a background image be best?
And if so, where?
Matijs
On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 2:38 AM, Adam Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Agree... but if you are wrapping it in a block element so that you can
position it etc... then it is easier just to change its properties via css
to act like a block element. No need for extra markup.
Stuart Foulstone wrote:
But, CSS changes presentation - displaying something as block doesn't
stop it being an inline element, just it's presentation.
On Fri, May 30, 2008 11:18 pm, Adam Martin wrote:
img is only an inline element by default. Some simple css fixes that. An
inline element does not have to be contained in a block level element at
all!
img {
display: block
}
Kroon.Kurtis wrote:
I'm not top-posting
-Original Message-
From: Miscellaneous
Subject: Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
... not be using a p tag [to] hold the logo --Adam
... A p tag is supposed to hold a paragraph of text. If it is only
holding an image, then there is no need for the surrounding p tag.
--Matt
... see what www.alistapart.com is now using --Roxanne
... beginning to think [a plain] html image tag would be better suited
to mark-up a company logo --Chris
... I already blogged that. --Jason
... only the homepage should have the company name/logo as the h1. As
you move through the site, the h1 should shift to the more specific top
heading on the page - on a category/index page it would be that
category's name; on a specific content page it should be the headline on
the content. --Ben
... fwiw, I don't see it that way. A web site is not a book, there is no
cover. People can visit pages in a site without ever going through the
home page. --Thierry
... etc.
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this ... but img is an inline
element.
So, it has to be contained in a block-level element, like p, h#, div,
etc.
Kurtis Kroon
Franchise Tax Board
State of California
916-845-5603
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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
On 3 Jun 2008, at 07:04, Matijs wrote: How about: titleThe Times/title h1Homepage/h1 h2There's water on mars/h2 titleThe Times/title h1Financial stuff/h1 h2Redmond stock going down further/h2 etc... Where would one fit in a company logo? Wouldn't a background image be best? And if so, where? My understanding of the title tag is that it is the title of the page, not the name of the site, and ideally every page should have a different title (at least from an SEO point of view) appropriate to its content -- so the above examples are not ideal IMHO. Re. logos as background images, that leaves anyone viewing the page without styles turned on out in the cold as far as seeing the company logo is concerned. Dan Cederholm uses a method whereby the logo is both a background image *and* a regular img tag, depending on whether you have styles on or off. That's my preferred technique. I just put the logo image in a div id=logo and keep the H1 for the page's own title. -- Rick Lecoat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
My 2 pence ... titlePage title - Site title/title div id=brand pimg alt=Site title ... //p /div div id=content h1Page Title/h1 ... /div div id=search h1Search/h1 form ... /div div id=nav h1Navigation/h1 ul ... /div 2008/6/3 Rick Lecoat [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 3 Jun 2008, at 07:04, Matijs wrote: How about: titleThe Times/title h1Homepage/h1 h2There's water on mars/h2 titleThe Times/title h1Financial stuff/h1 h2Redmond stock going down further/h2 etc... Where would one fit in a company logo? Wouldn't a background image be best? And if so, where? My understanding of the title tag is that it is the title of the page, not the name of the site, and ideally every page should have a different title (at least from an SEO point of view) appropriate to its content -- so the above examples are not ideal IMHO. Re. logos as background images, that leaves anyone viewing the page without styles turned on out in the cold as far as seeing the company logo is concerned. Dan Cederholm uses a method whereby the logo is both a background image *and* a regular img tag, depending on whether you have styles on or off. That's my preferred technique. I just put the logo image in a div id=logo and keep the H1 for the page's own title. -- Rick Lecoat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
To throw another question in here, should the page title therefore be different to the main heading of the page? I thought the content in the page title should be as specific as possible for SEO, including the heirarchy? So, for example titleSite title - Section Title - Page title/title And h1Page title, section title or Logo?/h1 Once you have it in the title tag, does it matter whether you have the logo in a H1 or not? Should you have something different between the title and main heading? Cheers 2008/6/3 Darren West [EMAIL PROTECTED]: My 2 pence ... titlePage title - Site title/title div id=brand pimg alt=Site title ... //p /div div id=content h1Page Title/h1 ... /div div id=search h1Search/h1 form ... /div div id=nav h1Navigation/h1 ul ... /div 2008/6/3 Rick Lecoat [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 3 Jun 2008, at 07:04, Matijs wrote: How about: titleThe Times/title h1Homepage/h1 h2There's water on mars/h2 titleThe Times/title h1Financial stuff/h1 h2Redmond stock going down further/h2 etc... Where would one fit in a company logo? Wouldn't a background image be best? And if so, where? My understanding of the title tag is that it is the title of the page, not the name of the site, and ideally every page should have a different title (at least from an SEO point of view) appropriate to its content -- so the above examples are not ideal IMHO. Re. logos as background images, that leaves anyone viewing the page without styles turned on out in the cold as far as seeing the company logo is concerned. Dan Cederholm uses a method whereby the logo is both a background image *and* a regular img tag, depending on whether you have styles on or off. That's my preferred technique. I just put the logo image in a div id=logo and keep the H1 for the page's own title. -- Rick Lecoat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
For the title you should really switch it around so that it is more specific to the page, and will be much better for SEO purposes. titlePage title - Section Title - Site title/title For the Logo h1 aspect, I would personally use the gilder/levin image replacement technique, using within this the Page title - Section Title - Site title combination within a h1 tag. This way you get a fancy logo, plus the benefits of you keyword rich Page title - Section Title - Site title combination to help boost your on-site SEO. Stew 2008/6/3 Paul Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED]: To throw another question in here, should the page title therefore be different to the main heading of the page? I thought the content in the page title should be as specific as possible for SEO, including the heirarchy? So, for example titleSite title - Section Title - Page title/title And h1Page title, section title or Logo?/h1 Once you have it in the title tag, does it matter whether you have the logo in a H1 or not? Should you have something different between the title and main heading? Cheers 2008/6/3 Darren West [EMAIL PROTECTED]: My 2 pence ... titlePage title - Site title/title div id=brand pimg alt=Site title ... //p /div div id=content h1Page Title/h1 ... /div div id=search h1Search/h1 form ... /div div id=nav h1Navigation/h1 ul ... /div 2008/6/3 Rick Lecoat [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 3 Jun 2008, at 07:04, Matijs wrote: How about: titleThe Times/title h1Homepage/h1 h2There's water on mars/h2 titleThe Times/title h1Financial stuff/h1 h2Redmond stock going down further/h2 etc... Where would one fit in a company logo? Wouldn't a background image be best? And if so, where? My understanding of the title tag is that it is the title of the page, not the name of the site, and ideally every page should have a different title (at least from an SEO point of view) appropriate to its content -- so the above examples are not ideal IMHO. Re. logos as background images, that leaves anyone viewing the page without styles turned on out in the cold as far as seeing the company logo is concerned. Dan Cederholm uses a method whereby the logo is both a background image *and* a regular img tag, depending on whether you have styles on or off. That's my preferred technique. I just put the logo image in a div id=logo and keep the H1 for the page's own title. -- Rick Lecoat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
On 3 Jun 2008, at 12:29, Paul Collins wrote: Once you have it in the title tag, does it matter whether you have the logo in a H1 or not? Should you have something different between the title and main heading? I would think that this starts to enter the realm of information that is machine-read vs that which is human-read. When I open a web page I don't tend to look much at the browser's title bar; I look at the page content itself. (The title bar comes more into play when I'm switching between tabs). Google, on the other hand, pays a great deal of attention to the title bar -- or, rather, the title tag that populates it. It also looks at the page content as well, of course. I think that as long as you avoid excessive duplication (ie. start keyword stuffing) there is no problem having some duplication of content between your title and main heading; humans and machines will each view both blocks of information to some degree, but will place different emphasis on one or the other. I would guess that screen readers will fall somewhere between the two in terms of how useful they find title vs. the page's main heading. But that's pure supposition, so don't take my word for it. Plenty of very knowledgeable people on this list can fill in those blanks. -- Rick Lecoat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
I do feel this is all rather subjective and depends on what you're building, that is until you consider SEO; which I feel flies in the face of Web Standards 2008/6/3 Stewart Griffiths [EMAIL PROTECTED]: For the title you should really switch it around so that it is more specific to the page, and will be much better for SEO purposes. titlePage title - Section Title - Site title/title For the Logo h1 aspect, I would personally use the gilder/levin image replacement technique, using within this the Page title - Section Title - Site title combination within a h1 tag. This way you get a fancy logo, plus the benefits of you keyword rich Page title - Section Title - Site title combination to help boost your on-site SEO. Stew 2008/6/3 Paul Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED]: To throw another question in here, should the page title therefore be different to the main heading of the page? I thought the content in the page title should be as specific as possible for SEO, including the heirarchy? So, for example titleSite title - Section Title - Page title/title And h1Page title, section title or Logo?/h1 Once you have it in the title tag, does it matter whether you have the logo in a H1 or not? Should you have something different between the title and main heading? Cheers 2008/6/3 Darren West [EMAIL PROTECTED]: My 2 pence ... titlePage title - Site title/title div id=brand pimg alt=Site title ... //p /div div id=content h1Page Title/h1 ... /div div id=search h1Search/h1 form ... /div div id=nav h1Navigation/h1 ul ... /div 2008/6/3 Rick Lecoat [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 3 Jun 2008, at 07:04, Matijs wrote: How about: titleThe Times/title h1Homepage/h1 h2There's water on mars/h2 titleThe Times/title h1Financial stuff/h1 h2Redmond stock going down further/h2 etc... Where would one fit in a company logo? Wouldn't a background image be best? And if so, where? My understanding of the title tag is that it is the title of the page, not the name of the site, and ideally every page should have a different title (at least from an SEO point of view) appropriate to its content -- so the above examples are not ideal IMHO. Re. logos as background images, that leaves anyone viewing the page without styles turned on out in the cold as far as seeing the company logo is concerned. Dan Cederholm uses a method whereby the logo is both a background image *and* a regular img tag, depending on whether you have styles on or off. That's my preferred technique. I just put the logo image in a div id=logo and keep the H1 for the page's own title. -- Rick Lecoat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
On 3 Jun 2008, at 12:55, Darren West wrote: I do feel this is all rather subjective and depends on what you're building, that is until you consider SEO; which I feel flies in the face of Web Standards I agree that much of this stuff is, inevitably, subjective. Web standards gives us a good framework to work to, but within that there are always numerous ways to skin the same cat (yes, it's a very unlucky cat). Re. SEO, I think that it can work just fine alongside web standards -- in moderation; as soon as you get too SEO-crazed you risk starting to erode the web standards 'purity' (if that doesn't sound too fascist) in order to accommodate some pro-Google trick or another. The root of Google's webmaster guidelines can be summarised as just create your page for humans to read without difficulty and don't obsess about trying to manipulate our search engine, and really that's not so far from web standards, is it? -- Rick Lecoat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
To be clear, my statement, which was quite sweeping, was meant to express that when a site is built for computers as opposed to humans then that to me flies in the face of Web Standards. So I agree :-) 2008/6/3 Rick Lecoat [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 3 Jun 2008, at 12:55, Darren West wrote: I do feel this is all rather subjective and depends on what you're building, that is until you consider SEO; which I feel flies in the face of Web Standards I agree that much of this stuff is, inevitably, subjective. Web standards gives us a good framework to work to, but within that there are always numerous ways to skin the same cat (yes, it's a very unlucky cat). Re. SEO, I think that it can work just fine alongside web standards -- in moderation; as soon as you get too SEO-crazed you risk starting to erode the web standards 'purity' (if that doesn't sound too fascist) in order to accommodate some pro-Google trick or another. The root of Google's webmaster guidelines can be summarised as just create your page for humans to read without difficulty and don't obsess about trying to manipulate our search engine, and really that's not so far from web standards, is it? -- Rick Lecoat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
I said it may explain ALA's approach, but that doesn't mean I like the idea ;) fwiw, I never use more than one H1 per document since I'm using it for site title. imho, if H1 is used for site title it can't be used again in the page. I agree. Two level-1 headings seem somewhat confusing to me. How about putting both logo and title in the heading? Something like h1 a href=indeximg src=logo alt=Company Name -/a Page Title /h1 This associates the title with the company. Anchor/image may be absolutely positioned with CSS, in unstyled pages the image is in line with the title and in UAs not displaying images the alternative text, the company name, precludes the title. For the title TAG, I recommend the opposite order: first Page Title, then Company Name. Many benefits - any disadvantages? Cheers, jens -- Jens Brueckmann http://www.yalf.de *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 9:06 AM, Jens Brueckmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I said it may explain ALA's approach, but that doesn't mean I like the idea ;) fwiw, I never use more than one H1 per document since I'm using it for site title. imho, if H1 is used for site title it can't be used again in the page. I agree. Two level-1 headings seem somewhat confusing to me. Why is it confusing? Unusual perhaps. What's the basis in the specs for this kind of argument? The specs discuss sections not pages or documents -- just sections. If an author is comfortable defining a section as a page or a document, that's fine. But saying that once an h1 is used as a page title it can't be used again on the page, or that ALA has the right way simply can't be supported. These are simply alternate interpretations of the term section. Indeed again it is worth pointing out that in the specs h1 is wrapped in a div to help define the section not the other way around. Even the discussion of skipping numbered headers isn't definitive. The note says some people not you must not. Granted that the some people is as I recall having this discussion a few years back, IEEE, it is still not normative.. Again, if you want to read the tea leaves, look at the html5 specs. There h1-h6 are clearly subordinate to sections and site headers. So within rather broad guidelines it is a matter of choice. When and if 5 is implemented the choices are more confined and proper semantic use of elements will go much further towards making it possible for UA's to more fruitfully interpret author intent which is the point of css and xhtml in enhancing usability and accessibility. drew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
Agree... but if you are wrapping it in a block element so that you can
position it etc... then it is easier just to change its properties via
css to act like a block element. No need for extra markup.
Stuart Foulstone wrote:
But, CSS changes presentation - displaying something as block doesn't
stop it being an inline element, just it's presentation.
On Fri, May 30, 2008 11:18 pm, Adam Martin wrote:
img is only an inline element by default. Some simple css fixes that. An
inline element does not have to be contained in a block level element at
all!
img {
display: block
}
Kroon.Kurtis wrote:
I'm not top-posting
-Original Message-
From: Miscellaneous
Subject: Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
... not be using a p tag [to] hold the logo --Adam
... A p tag is supposed to hold a paragraph of text. If it is only
holding an image, then there is no need for the surrounding p tag.
--Matt
... see what www.alistapart.com is now using --Roxanne
... beginning to think [a plain] html image tag would be better suited
to mark-up a company logo --Chris
... I already blogged that. --Jason
... only the homepage should have the company name/logo as the h1. As
you move through the site, the h1 should shift to the more specific top
heading on the page - on a category/index page it would be that
category's name; on a specific content page it should be the headline on
the content. --Ben
... fwiw, I don't see it that way. A web site is not a book, there is no
cover. People can visit pages in a site without ever going through the
home page. --Thierry
... etc.
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this ... but img is an inline
element.
So, it has to be contained in a block-level element, like p, h#, div,
etc.
Kurtis Kroon
Franchise Tax Board
State of California
916-845-5603
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RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo
Hi Jason Part of the problem (and I know I'm biased) is that not enough website developers/publishers employ editors, whose bread and butter is information design - how to effectively break up content and provide signposts that help readers navigate their way through mountains of text. An effective heading tells you something about the content which follows it. In a well-structured document, a level 1 heading tells me about all the stuff between it and the next level 1 heading. A logo is more like the title which often appears as the verso running head in a book: it reminds you what book you're reading, but doesn't tell you anything specific about this chapter/section. Gerry McGovern has written a few times about the undervaluing of content as exemplified by a development process where the team gets to a few weeks before launch date and suddenly says OK, where's the content? All that stuff that replaces lorem ipsum? Much waving of hands and the expectation that the words will materialise out of thin air. Elizabeth Spiegel Web editing topleft 0409 986 158 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001 www.spiegelweb.com.au From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jason Grant Sent: Friday, 30 May 2008 8:58 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo I am surprised that we are even discussing this topic here. This issue is mentioned in the last sentence of this blog post: http://www.flexewebs.com/semantix/?p=5 Please follow the link provided in there to W3C site which mentions what h1 is there for. Kind regards, Jason www.flexewebs.com -- see also here where h1 appears on the page and how logo is done. On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 11:38 PM, Chris Pearce [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for all the feedback regarding this. I'm actually beginning to think an html image tag would be better suited to mark-up a company logo and reserving the h1 for the main page title, this seems to make more sense to me after giving it more thought. Also most of the sites I build use CMS's and clients will go ahead and use a h1 anyway for the top level heading in the editable area therefore the logical order of headers is broken. At the end of the day semantics means a lot more to me than SEO. On a side note I find I have to insert an image tag (for the logo) for the print version as most clients aren't happy about showing plain text from the h1 as we all know that printing background images is turned off by default. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Pearce Sent: Wednesday, 28 May 2008 5:49 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Marking up company logo Hi, For a few years now I've been marking up a clients company logo as a h1. I just wanted to get an idea of how many people actually do this compared to using a html image tag? I believe a h1 is more semantically correct however I'd be interested in seeing what other people on this list think. Cheers *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***image001.gif
RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo
My take on this, is that IT ALL DEPENDS ! Every site is different. For example: www.calcresult.com does not use a traditional image-based logo, so the arguments that the site logo is 'just a simple image' fails completely. Some sites look a bit like a newspaper. Newspapers themselves vary considerably (in the UK at least.) Some have their name in large type, eg the SUN Others prefer a more subtle masthead, like The Times If I had to replicate the former, I would undoubtedly put the word SUN into an H1 - they care about their brand, and have little or no logo. For The Times, I would not use an H1 - they believe that their reputation speaks for itself. Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of jen Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 1:40 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo An h1 is definitely not for marking up the company logo. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
I think someone the other day hit the nail on the head and it fits with your newspaper analogy. h1 class=mastheadfor the logo/h1 h1Title/h1 My take on this, is that IT ALL DEPENDS ! Every site is different. For example: www.calcresult.com does not use a traditional image-based logo, so the arguments that the site logo is 'just a simple image' fails completely. Some sites look a bit like a newspaper. Newspapers themselves vary considerably (in the UK at least.) Some have their name in large type, eg the SUN Others prefer a more subtle masthead, like The Times If I had to replicate the former, I would undoubtedly put the word SUN into an H1 - they care about their brand, and have little or no logo. For The Times, I would not use an H1 - they believe that their reputation speaks for itself. Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of jen Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 1:40 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo An h1 is definitely not for marking up the company logo. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo
But the Webpage (or the entire site for that matter) is not be about The Sun or The Times - it's about the news. And the news is what the user is looking for. On Fri, May 30, 2008 9:10 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My take on this, is that IT ALL DEPENDS ! Every site is different. For example: www.calcresult.com does not use a traditional image-based logo, so the arguments that the site logo is 'just a simple image' fails completely. Some sites look a bit like a newspaper. Newspapers themselves vary considerably (in the UK at least.) Some have their name in large type, eg the SUN Others prefer a more subtle masthead, like The Times If I had to replicate the former, I would undoubtedly put the word SUN into an H1 - they care about their brand, and have little or no logo. For The Times, I would not use an H1 - they believe that their reputation speaks for itself. Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of jen Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 1:40 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo An h1 is definitely not for marking up the company logo. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo
If you want to look at things from that angle, then we have to make a split between what the user wants - news, information, entertainment, etc. what the commissioner wants, and what the search engines want. All sites on the web arguable fall into one of three categories: Hobby sites, Businesses, Promotional sites (for businesses mainly) NB The difference between the latter two may not be obvious to the end-user - it is a business decision made by the owner. For sites that do fall into the latter category, whether or not they carry news items, the site is NOT 'about the news' it is about promoting the larger business. Clearly every site needs to make the right balance between the needs of the users, the owners and the search engines, but any suggestion that this can be covered by a single sweeping, blanket statement is a surprise from someone with your reputation and experience. Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 9:37 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo But the Webpage (or the entire site for that matter) is not be about The Sun or The Times - it's about the news. And the news is what the user is looking for. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you want to look at things from that angle, then we have to make a split between what the user wants - news, information, entertainment, etc. what the commissioner wants, and what the search engines want. All sites on the web arguable fall into one of three categories: Hobby sites, Businesses, Promotional sites (for businesses mainly) Web Apps, Teaching sites, intranets, social networking??? NB The difference between the latter two may not be obvious to the end-user - it is a business decision made by the owner. For sites that do fall into the latter category, whether or not they carry news items, the site is NOT 'about the news' it is about promoting the larger business. Clearly every site needs to make the right balance between the needs of the users, the owners and the search engines, but any suggestion that this can be covered by a single sweeping, blanket statement is a surprise from someone with your reputation and experience. Regards,Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 9:37 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo But the Webpage (or the entire site for that matter) is not be about The Sun or The Times - it's about the news. And the news is what the user is looking for. Stuart is talking from the perspective of SEO. It would be desirable for a website like 'the times' to be the top result when you google 'news'. You're right that it depends on context. Lea and I think Ben Buchanan mentioned that they use h1 for company name on the home page which is an excellent idea. Think about it, unless the company/website name has absolutely nothing to do with what it does then for a home page the company name is key. Especially so for well known brands or for any site that wants to be found by name and not just through it's normal content. Some sites have only a home page and hidden content that requires registration eg. facebook. I still think using hCard markup for the website name and logo is a good alternative to add to this argument. -Rob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 1:37 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo But the Webpage (or the entire site for that matter) is not be about The Sun or The Times - it's about the news. And the news is what the user is looking for. I'd say when it comes to news the source is very important, so imho the publisher is key. Imaging this: h1The Times/h1 h2There is water on Mars/h2 or this: h1The Sun/h1 h2There is water on Mars/h2 versus: h1There is water on Mars/h1 -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
I'd say when it comes to news the source is very important, so imho the publisher is key. Imaging this: h1The Times/h1 h2There is water on Mars/h2 or this: h1The Sun/h1 h2There is water on Mars/h2 versus: h1There is water on Mars/h1 -- So following the specs that a heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it introduces. Heading information may be used by user agents, for example, to construct a table of contents for a document automatically you now have: I. The Times A. There is water on Mars Or I. The Sun A. There is water on Mars Or 1. There is water on Mars Perhaps this might work: 1. The Sun II. There is water on mars. drew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
On 30 May 2008, at 15:50, Thierry Koblentz wrote: I'd say when it comes to news the source is very important, so imho the publisher is key. Important? Yes. More important then the title? No. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ http://blog.dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Dorward Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 8:30 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo On 30 May 2008, at 15:50, Thierry Koblentz wrote: I'd say when it comes to news the source is very important, so imho the publisher is key. Important? Yes. More important then the title? No. That's a good point and it may explain the ALA's approach: h1The Times/h1 h1There is water on Mars/h1 -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo
But does two H1's in a row really agree with the spec? My understanding was that a sub-level could repeat immediately, but H1's were not supposed to. For example: Okay: H1 H2 H2 H3 H1 H2 Bad: H1 H1 Regards, Mike That's a good point and it may explain the ALA's approach: h1The Times/h1 h1There is water on Mars/h1 Mike Brockington Web Development Specialist www.calcResult.com www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk www.edinburgh.gov.uk This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the author alone. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo
I'm not top-posting -Original Message- From: Miscellaneous Subject: Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo ... not be using a p tag [to] hold the logo --Adam ... A p tag is supposed to hold a paragraph of text. If it is only holding an image, then there is no need for the surrounding p tag. --Matt ... see what www.alistapart.com is now using --Roxanne ... beginning to think [a plain] html image tag would be better suited to mark-up a company logo --Chris ... I already blogged that. --Jason ... only the homepage should have the company name/logo as the h1. As you move through the site, the h1 should shift to the more specific top heading on the page - on a category/index page it would be that category's name; on a specific content page it should be the headline on the content. --Ben ... fwiw, I don't see it that way. A web site is not a book, there is no cover. People can visit pages in a site without ever going through the home page. --Thierry ... etc. I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this ... but img is an inline element. So, it has to be contained in a block-level element, like p, h#, div, etc. Kurtis Kroon Franchise Tax Board State of California 916-845-5603 __ CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email from the State of California is for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review or use, including disclosure or distribution, is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of this email. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 9:24 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo But does two H1's in a row really agree with the spec? My understanding was that a sub-level could repeat immediately, but H1's were not supposed to. I said it may explain ALA's approach, but that doesn't mean I like the idea ;) fwiw, I never use more than one H1 per document since I'm using it for site title. imho, if H1 is used for site title it can't be used again in the page. -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
img is only an inline element by default. Some simple css fixes that. An
inline element does not have to be contained in a block level element at
all!
img {
display: block
}
Kroon.Kurtis wrote:
I'm not top-posting
-Original Message-
From: Miscellaneous
Subject: Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
... not be using a p tag [to] hold the logo --Adam
... A p tag is supposed to hold a paragraph of text. If it is only holding an
image, then there is no need for the surrounding p tag. --Matt
... see what www.alistapart.com is now using --Roxanne
... beginning to think [a plain] html image tag would be better suited to
mark-up a company logo --Chris
... I already blogged that. --Jason
... only the homepage should have the company name/logo as the h1. As you move
through the site, the h1 should shift to the more specific top heading on the
page - on a category/index page it would be that category's name; on a specific
content page it should be the headline on the content. --Ben
... fwiw, I don't see it that way. A web site is not a book, there is no cover.
People can visit pages in a site without ever going through the home page.
--Thierry
... etc.
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this ... but img is an inline element.
So, it has to be contained in a block-level element, like p, h#, div, etc.
Kurtis Kroon
Franchise Tax Board
State of California
916-845-5603
__
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RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adam Martin Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 3:19 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo img is only an inline element by default. Some simple css fixes that. An inline element does not have to be contained in a block level element at all! You might need a containing element for the IMG element, this depends on document type. -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
Thierry Koblentz wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adam Martin Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 3:19 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo img is only an inline element by default. Some simple css fixes that. An inline element does not have to be contained in a block level element at all! You might need a containing element for the IMG element, this depends on document type. Additionally, using CSS to make an img -display- like a block only makes it act like a block level element. It doesn't mean it is a block-level element semantically. -- Christian Snodgrass Azure Ronin Web Design http://www.arwebdesign.net/ http://www.arwebdesign.net Phone: 859.816.7955 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
I concur. Having it as a p is a much better way of dealing with it rather than having it as an image or h1. To me its less about SEO and much more about usability. People don't really care about your company, they're simply after the major headlines. Having a company logo take up the majority of the real-estate is less user-friendly and much more spammy. Maybe I am just a minimalist. On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 2:32 PM, Jens-Uwe Korff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The H1 should be used for the most important heading, usually the name of the page I second that. We used to have lots of logos in h1s too, and after a thorough SEO discussion we changed that to a p. The h1 now holds the page title. Cheers, Jens The information contained in this e-mail message and any accompanying files is or may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, dissemination, reliance, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail or any attached files is unauthorised. This e-mail is subject to copyright. No part of it should be reproduced, adapted or communicated without the written consent of the copyright owner. If you have received this e-mail in error please advise the sender immediately by return e-mail or telephone and delete all copies. Fairfax does not guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained in this e-mail or attached files. Internet communications are not secure, therefore Fairfax does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message or attached files. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- - Anton Babushkin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
On 29 May 2008, at 05:32, Jens-Uwe Korff wrote: We used to have lots of logos in h1s too, and after a thorough SEO discussion we changed that to a p. Out of curiosity, is a logo img at the top of the page more semantically correct when wrapped in a p than when it's just on it's own (ie. not wrapped in anything other than, say, a 'header' div)? -- Rick Lecoat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
I would personally not be using a p tag too hold the logo? Why would you want too? you can position as you want without the need for extra markup. img src=logo.png alt=My company logo width=150px height=300px id=logo / - that makes it pretty obvious. of course if you only have 1 image in the header then you don't need the id either. Semantically I don't think it needs to be in any other tags at all. I think if people start think UO rather than SEO then the answers to most questions become a lot clearer - UO is a term I coined just the other day - UO = user optimisation. Cheers Adam Rick Lecoat wrote: On 29 May 2008, at 05:32, Jens-Uwe Korff wrote: We used to have lots of logos in h1s too, and after a thorough SEO discussion we changed that to a p. Out of curiosity, is a logo img at the top of the page more semantically correct when wrapped in a p than when it's just on it's own (ie. not wrapped in anything other than, say, a 'header' div)? -- Rick Lecoat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
Out of curiosity, is a logo img at the top of the page more semantically correct when wrapped in a p than when it's just on it's own (ie. not wrapped in anything other than, say, a 'header' div)? Easy! A p tag is supposed to hold a paragraph of text. If it is only holding an image, then there is no need for the surrounding p tag. Some people (including myself) feel uncomfortable with the img floating by itself, so wrapping it in a div id=header or something is a nice alternative. -- Matt Fellows http://www.onegeek.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
Adam Martin wrote: I think if people start think UO rather than SEO then the answers to most questions become a lot clearer - UO is a term I coined just the other day - UO = user optimisation. How excellent! I'm sure we can build a whole consulting industry around that! ;-) cheers mark *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
I intend too - as of tomorrow I am officially unemployed and working on launching my new business www.internetconsultants.com.au (site not even close too completion). Mark Harris wrote: Adam Martin wrote: I think if people start think UO rather than SEO then the answers to most questions become a lot clearer - UO is a term I coined just the other day - UO = user optimisation. How excellent! I'm sure we can build a whole consulting industry around that! ;-) cheers mark *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo
Hi Chris I'm not convinced that h1 is semantically correct for a logo (or even banner). I would normally expect the h1 to be similar to the title - it indicates what the whole page is about (but not the whole site). Elizabeth Spiegel Web editing topleft 0409 986 158 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001 www.spiegelweb.com.au From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Pearce Sent: Wednesday, 28 May 2008 5:49 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Marking up company logo Hi, For a few years now I've been marking up a clients company logo as a h1. I just wanted to get an idea of how many people actually do this compared to using a html image tag? I believe a h1 is more semantically correct however I'd be interested in seeing what other people on this list think. Cheers *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***image001.gif
RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo
Thanks for all the feedback regarding this. I'm actually beginning to think an html image tag would be better suited to mark-up a company logo and reserving the h1 for the main page title, this seems to make more sense to me after giving it more thought. Also most of the sites I build use CMS's and clients will go ahead and use a h1 anyway for the top level heading in the editable area therefore the logical order of headers is broken. At the end of the day semantics means a lot more to me than SEO. On a side note I find I have to insert an image tag (for the logo) for the print version as most clients aren't happy about showing plain text from the h1 as we all know that printing background images is turned off by default. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Pearce Sent: Wednesday, 28 May 2008 5:49 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Marking up company logo Hi, For a few years now I've been marking up a clients company logo as a h1. I just wanted to get an idea of how many people actually do this compared to using a html image tag? I believe a h1 is more semantically correct however I'd be interested in seeing what other people on this list think. Cheers *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
I am surprised that we are even discussing this topic here. This issue is mentioned in the last sentence of this blog post: http://www.flexewebs.com/semantix/?p=5 Please follow the link provided in there to W3C site which mentions what h1 is there for. Kind regards, Jason www.flexewebs.com -- see also here where h1 appears on the page and how logo is done. On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 11:38 PM, Chris Pearce [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for all the feedback regarding this. I'm actually beginning to think an html image tag would be better suited to mark-up a company logo and reserving the h1 for the main page title, this seems to make more sense to me after giving it more thought. Also most of the sites I build use CMS's and clients will go ahead and use a h1 anyway for the top level heading in the editable area therefore the logical order of headers is broken. At the end of the day semantics means a lot more to me than SEO. On a side note I find I have to insert an image tag (for the logo) for the print version as most clients aren't happy about showing plain text from the h1 as we all know that printing background images is turned off by default. *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Chris Pearce *Sent:* Wednesday, 28 May 2008 5:49 PM *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Subject:* [WSG] Marking up company logo Hi, For a few years now I've been marking up a clients company logo as a h1. I just wanted to get an idea of how many people actually do this compared to using a html image tag? I believe a h1 is more semantically correct however I'd be interested in seeing what other people on this list think. Cheers *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
For a few years now I've been marking up a clients company logo as a h1. I just wanted to get an idea of how many people actually do this compared to using a html image tag? I believe a h1 is more semantically correct however I'd be interested in seeing what other people on this list think. My take is that only the homepage should have the company name/logo as the h1. As you move through the site, the h1 should shift to the more specific top heading on the page - on a category/index page it would be that category's name; on a specific content page it should be the headline on the content. On these other pages the logo/name just goes in a div, usually with a strong. That way, you build a logical structure across the site. Each page will have a logical h1. That's the ideal of course. If your system doesn't allow for that sort of thing, having the logo as the h1 on every page isn't the end of the world, although you really need to make sure your title and h2 combination is accurate to make up for it :) cheers, Ben -- --- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo
I am surprised that we are even discussing this topic here. This issue is mentioned in the last sentence of this blog post: http://www.flexewebs.com/semantix/?p=5 Please follow the link provided in there to W3C site which mentions what h1 is there for. It's almost Friday, so here goes ;) I may be wrong, but with the millions of web sites out there identity/branding is a big deal. If I consider the name of the site being the most important piece of information in the document, then I have no problem putting it in a H1. As a side note, the URL you posted links to a document that does not mention your company/site name which is not in the TITLE element either, so I think this explains our different stances ;-) -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo
For a few years now I've been marking up a clients company logo as a h1. I just wanted to get an idea of how many people actually do this compared to using a html image tag? I believe a h1 is more semantically correct however I'd be interested in seeing what other people on this list think. My take is that only the homepage should have the company name/logo as the h1. As you move through the site, the h1 should shift to the more specific top heading on the page - on a category/index page it would be that category's name; on a specific content page it should be the headline on the content. fwiw, I don't see it that way. A web site is not a book, there is no cover. People can visit pages in a site without ever going through the home page. -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
An h1 is definitely not for marking up the company logo. A logo in a banner would go in a div, div id=logo. h1 is reserved for the semantically correct information for the main heading. Alistapart must have it wrong. Actually, looking through their code, they do appear to have it wrong. The h# tags are odd. When in doubt, see what Dan Cederholm at simplebits.com does, or the Happy Cog folks ( img id=logo src=/i/hc_logo_print.png alt=Happy Cog logo / ). They've never steered me wrong. j *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Marking up company logo
Hi, For a few years now I've been marking up a clients company logo as a h1. I just wanted to get an idea of how many people actually do this compared to using a html image tag? I believe a h1 is more semantically correct however I'd be interested in seeing what other people on this list think. Cheers *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
Hi Chris, I've always done that too, it's always seemed to make the most sense here too. I've seen many sites that use image tags instead and do concede the point that without css, the logo could still be considered as worthy showing. I wonder if there would be a good middle ground with this. Cheers, Tony -Original Message- From: Chris Pearce [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 17:49:21 To:wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Marking up company logo Hi, For a few years now I’ve been marking up a clients company logo as a h1. I just wanted to get an idea of how many people actually do this compared to using a html image tag? I believe a h1 is more semantically correct however I’d be interested in seeing what other people on this list think. Cheers *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
On Wed, 28 May 2008 17:49:21 +1000, Chris Pearce wrote:
For a few years now I’ve been marking up a clients company logo as a
h1. I just wanted to get an idea of how many people actually do
this compared to using a html image tag? I believe a h1 is more
semantically correct however I’d be interested in seeing what other
people on this list think.
There are many discussions of this one around. Here's one:
http://www.andybudd.com/archives/2004/03/quick_quiz_h1s_and_logos/
There are lots more :)
My take is that I will put the logo in the h1 element when the logo is
the most important thing on the page (most important isn't quite what
I mean, but its as close as I am getting at 6PM :))
This is usually the homepage.
So other pages don't get a h1 for the logo, the title of that page gets
the h1 instead.
I usually end up with markup like this:
div id=mast
XX id=logoimg/XX
pPossibly other stuff too/p
/div
Where XX is ether H1 or div depending on the page.
This lets me write a set of rules like:
#mast { ... }
#mast #logo { ... }
so all pages are the same, whether the logo has the h1 or not
Hope it helps
warmly,
Lea
--
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems
Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
Chris Pearce wrote: Hi, For a few years now I’ve been marking up a clients company logo as a h1. I just wanted to get an idea of how many people actually do this compared to using a html image tag? I believe a h1 is more semantically correct however I’d be interested in seeing what other people on this list think. Cheers Hi Chris, I've often asked myself whether h1 was the best thing to use, and I used it primarily because it was the first thing to appear on the page and I wanted my headings in a logical order. I now use the hcard microformat to mark up the company name and logo because it offers some decent semantic class names and can be exported eg. div id=header div class=vcard a class=url href=http://www.example.com; img class=logo alt=Company Name Logo src=... / span class=fnCompany Name/span /a /div /div You can then extend the vcard using the include-pattern elsewhere on the page such as the footer or just leave it as a simple vcard. http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard Regards, Rob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
I fumbled with this for a while Chris but decided against it on the grounds that h1 denotes the most important content on the page; the site ownerthe logo may think that his or her logo is the most important element on the page, I doubt any site users would agree. I know we have to be pragmatic at times (clients pay wages etc) but I think the semantic argument should win this one. In most cases my h1s' contain much the same content as the page titles, bringing the added benefit that robots seem to like this approach; a point I make to clients if they ask when I explain how the semantic design can help them avoid SEO costs. Regards Ian - Original Message - From: Chris Pearce To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 8:49 AM Subject: [WSG] Marking up company logo Hi, For a few years now I've been marking up a clients company logo as a h1. I just wanted to get an idea of how many people actually do this compared to using a html image tag? I believe a h1 is more semantically correct however I'd be interested in seeing what other people on this list think. Cheers *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
Hi Chris, Here's a blog post I wrote a while ago with my view: http://www.digitaloverload.co.uk/blog/2007/11/23/more-semantic-logos/ James. Chris Pearce wrote: Hi, For a few years now I’ve been marking up a clients company logo as a h1. I just wanted to get an idea of how many people actually do this compared to using a html image tag? I believe a h1 is more semantically correct however I’d be interested in seeing what other people on this list think. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
On 5/28/08, Chris Pearce [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For a few years now I've been marking up a clients company logo as a h1. I just wanted to get an idea of how many people actually do this compared to using a html image tag? I believe a h1 is more semantically correct however I'd be interested in seeing what other people on this list think. Headers and particularly h1 headers are not the most important item on a page. Headers introduce sections of which there can be more than one on a page and which can run more than one page. This is what the html 4.01 specs say about headers: A heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it introduces. Heading information may be used by user agents, for example, to construct a table of contents for a document automatically. There are six levels of headings in HTML with H1 as the most important and H6 as the least. Visual browsers usually render more important headings in larger fonts than less important ones. The following example shows how to use the DIV element to associate a heading with the document section that follows it. Doing so allows you to define a style for the section (color the background, set the font, etc.) with style sheets. DIV class=section id=forest-elephants H1Forest elephants/H1 PIn this section, we discuss the lesser known forest elephants. ...this section continues... DIV class=subsection id=forest-habitat H2Habitat/H2 PForest elephants do not live in trees but among them. ...this subsection continues... /DIV /DIV http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#edef-H1 HTML5 is perhaps even clearer on the sectioning nature of headings since it also calls for the specific use of section tags to work with headers: The h1–h6 elements and the header element are headings. The first element of heading content in an element of sectioning content gives the header for that section. Subsequent headers of equal or higher rank start new (implied) sections, headers of lower rank start subsections that are part of the previous one. Sectioning content elements are always considered subsections of their nearest ancestor element of sectioning content, regardless of what implied sections other headings may have created. Certain elements are said to be sectioning roots, including blockquote and td elements. These elements can have their own outlines, but the sections and headers inside these elements do not contribute to the outlines of their ancestors. http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#headings0 Discussions of sections and articles and outlines seem to further confirm that headers are for sections not sites. Site headers are discussed under articles and outlines which include and seem to superceed headers in 5. In other words, it seems completely plausible to have an h1 for the logo and an h1 for the page topic if both of those seem to the author to constitute separate sections in 4.01 and obligatory in 5. drew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo
The H1 should be used for the most important heading, usually the name of the page I second that. We used to have lots of logos in h1s too, and after a thorough SEO discussion we changed that to a p. The h1 now holds the page title. Cheers, Jens The information contained in this e-mail message and any accompanying files is or may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, dissemination, reliance, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail or any attached files is unauthorised. This e-mail is subject to copyright. No part of it should be reproduced, adapted or communicated without the written consent of the copyright owner. If you have received this e-mail in error please advise the sender immediately by return e-mail or telephone and delete all copies. Fairfax does not guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained in this e-mail or attached files. Internet communications are not secure, therefore Fairfax does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message or attached files. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
