Re: [WSG] title attribute and semantic data

[Dani Iswara]

Benjamin,
I do agree with the redundancy of title attribute and its device/mouse
dependant--not fully accessible.

-- 
Regards,

Dani Iswara
http://daniiswara.net/


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Re: [WSG] title attribute and semantic data

[johnson . djames]

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-Original Message-
From: Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis 
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 20:03:36 
To: 
Subject: Re: [WSG] title attribute and semantic data

On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 6:07 PM, Dani Iswara 
wrote:
> In some blog machines/engines/themes, title attribute usually has
> the same text as in anchor link. Eg. in post title with
> rel="bookmark".  Redundant information, based on Web accessibility
> point of view. But
> http://www.w3.org/2003/12/semantic-extractor.html, Semantic Data
> Extractor tool built by W3C needs the title information for the
> bookmarkable points.
>
> So, is there a way to make it accessible and semantic properly?

Short answer: omit redundant "title" attributes.

The W3C hosts some formal standards endorsed by its membership
(Recommendations). But they also host a load of tools and documents
that have no special formal status. This tool is one of those.

I think you are being misled by a bad user interface decision on the
part of whomever built the tool.

When the tool says "[Unknown title]", I suspect it is telling you
that you have not added a "title" attribute to the link, not that
you /must/ or even /should/ add a title to the link.

If the developer *did* mean to tell you to add the attribute, then
they were wrong and trumped both by your users' needs (which should
always come first) and also by the formal Recommendations that tell
you how to use the "title" attribute".

The W3C HTML 4.01 Recommendation is clear: "title" provides
"advisory information about the element for which it is set":

   http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/global.html#adef-title

If you don't have any useful advisory information to add, then
"title" should be omitted or empty ("title=''").

In fact, because of the usability problems with common
implementations of "title", even if you do have useful advisory
information, it may not be the best place to put it.

http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/?p=37

--
Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis


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Re: [WSG] title attribute and semantic data

[Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis]

On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 6:07 PM, Dani Iswara 
wrote:
> In some blog machines/engines/themes, title attribute usually has
> the same text as in anchor link. Eg. in post title with
> rel="bookmark".  Redundant information, based on Web accessibility
> point of view. But
> http://www.w3.org/2003/12/semantic-extractor.html, Semantic Data
> Extractor tool built by W3C needs the title information for the
> bookmarkable points.
>
> So, is there a way to make it accessible and semantic properly?

Short answer: omit redundant "title" attributes.

The W3C hosts some formal standards endorsed by its membership
(Recommendations). But they also host a load of tools and documents
that have no special formal status. This tool is one of those.

I think you are being misled by a bad user interface decision on the
part of whomever built the tool.

When the tool says "[Unknown title]", I suspect it is telling you
that you have not added a "title" attribute to the link, not that
you /must/ or even /should/ add a title to the link.

If the developer *did* mean to tell you to add the attribute, then
they were wrong and trumped both by your users' needs (which should
always come first) and also by the formal Recommendations that tell
you how to use the "title" attribute".

The W3C HTML 4.01 Recommendation is clear: "title" provides
"advisory information about the element for which it is set":

   http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/global.html#adef-title

If you don't have any useful advisory information to add, then
"title" should be omitted or empty ("title=''").

In fact, because of the usability problems with common
implementations of "title", even if you do have useful advisory
information, it may not be the best place to put it.

http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/?p=37

--
Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis


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[WSG] title attribute and semantic data

[Dani Iswara]

In some blog machines/engines/themes, title attribute usually has the
same text as in anchor link. Eg. in post title with rel="bookmark".
Redundant information, based on Web accessibility point of view. But
http://www.w3.org/2003/12/semantic-extractor.html, Semantic Data
Extractor tool built by W3C needs the title information for the
bookmarkable points.

So, is there a way to make it accessible and semantic properly?

-- 
Regards,

Dani Iswara
http://daniiswara.com/


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Re: [WSG] Title attribute

[Anthony Ziebell]

Hello,

The title attribute is especially useful if you need to explain the
content of a page to your visitor and your link text is not so
meaningful. I would advise that you attempt to use meaningful text in
your links. It might be a good idea to change the structure of your
sentence so that meaningful text can be used for linking.

You can read up on good link architecture here:

http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2008/10/importance-of-link-architecture.html

Regards,
Anthony.


Chris Dimmock wrote:

  Hi Jens

Actually, using the 'title' attribute in a link does NOT add a little
bit of SEO. Title element ('Page Title') - yes for SEO - but title
attribute - no.

Try it yourself. Put a few words in a title attribute - words which
don't otherwise appear on your page. The once Google has re-indexed
the page, (look at the date in the Google cache); then search your
sitein Google for the words you included in the title attribute.

Here's an example. The words "Australian DDA" appear in a title
element of a link on http://www.cogentis.com.au/ but no where else on
that page, i.e. only here:

Web accessibility
issues

But a search in Google will not return this page.
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=site%3Acogentis.com.au+Australian+DDA&btnG=Google+Search&meta=cr%3DcountryAU

It only returns another page on the site which does have those words
on the page.

Google won't find them, because it doesn't index them; just like
Google doesn't index the content of e.g. meta name ="keywords" field.

Chris



On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 11:00 AM, Jens-Uwe Korff
 wrote:
  
  

  I was wondering how valuable the Title attribute is
  

Use the 'title' attribute when the link text needs to be short and
doesn't convey all a user needs to know, eg. Local news. In this case you also add a bit
of SEO.

I found that, contrary to what I believed previously, this is not
required for assistive technologies, ie. screenreaders. They usually
pick up the anchor text well.

Cheers,

Jens

  
  

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Re: [WSG] Title attribute

[Chris Dimmock]

Hi Jens

Actually, using the 'title' attribute in a link does NOT add a little
bit of SEO. Title element ('Page Title') - yes for SEO - but title
attribute - no.

Try it yourself. Put a few words in a title attribute - words which
don't otherwise appear on your page. The once Google has re-indexed
the page, (look at the date in the Google cache); then search your
sitein Google for the words you included in the title attribute.

Here's an example. The words "Australian DDA" appear in a title
element of a link on http://www.cogentis.com.au/ but no where else on
that page, i.e. only here:

Web accessibility
issues

But a search in Google will not return this page.
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=site%3Acogentis.com.au+Australian+DDA&btnG=Google+Search&meta=cr%3DcountryAU

It only returns another page on the site which does have those words
on the page.

Google won't find them, because it doesn't index them; just like
Google doesn't index the content of e.g. meta name ="keywords" field.

Chris



On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 11:00 AM, Jens-Uwe Korff
 wrote:
>> I was wondering how valuable the Title attribute is
>
> Use the 'title' attribute when the link text needs to be short and
> doesn't convey all a user needs to know, eg. Local news. In this case you also add a bit
> of SEO.
>
> I found that, contrary to what I believed previously, this is not
> required for assistive technologies, ie. screenreaders. They usually
> pick up the anchor text well.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jens


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Re: [WSG] Title attribute

[Hayden's Harness Attachment]

Let me see if I am understanding correctly. The Title attribute is not needed 
any more. As long as links are in simple language and their is a description of 
a photo and/or graphic on the side or top and bottom.

Angus MacKinnon
Infoforce Services
http://www.infoforce-services.com

"Faith is the strength by which a shattered world shall emerge into
the light." - Helen Keller



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Re: [WSG] Title attribute

[Hassan Schroeder]

Christian Snodgrass wrote:

Just another note: EVERY element has a title attribute


Uh, not exactly, at least according to

  

FWIW,
--
Hassan Schroeder - has...@webtuitive.com
Webtuitive Design ===  (+1) 408-621-3445   === http://webtuitive.com

  dream.  code.


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Re: [WSG] Title attribute

[Christian Snodgrass]

Just another note: EVERY element has a title attribute, not just the 
anchor attribute. Title is one of those basic properties like id and 
name. It doesn't have any unique use for any specific element, it just 
allows you to provide a bit more information for the element (which is 
usually displayed when the user mouses over the element).


--
Christian Snodgrass
CEO - Azure Ronin
http://www.arwebdesign.net
http://www.htmlblox.com
Phone: 859.816.7955



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Re: [WSG] Title attribute

[Christian Montoya]

On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 7:37 PM, Hayden's Harness Attachment
 wrote:
> Jens
>
>> I found that, contrary to what I believed previously, this is not
>> required for assistive technologies, ie. screenreaders. They usually
>> pick up the anchor text well.
>
> Anchor text? What is anchor text? I thought the Title attribute was the 
> anchor text.

THIS is the anchor text

-- 
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net


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Re: [WSG] Title attribute

[Hayden's Harness Attachment]

Jens

> I found that, contrary to what I believed previously, this is not
> required for assistive technologies, ie. screenreaders. They usually
> pick up the anchor text well.

Anchor text? What is anchor text? I thought the Title attribute was the anchor 
text.

Angus MacKinnon
Infoforce Services
http://www.infoforce-services.com

"Faith is the strength by which a shattered world shall emerge into
the light." - Helen Keller



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Re: [WSG] Title attribute

[Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis]

On 12/1/09 00:00, Jens-Uwe Korff wrote:

I found that, contrary to what I believed previously, this is not
required for assistive technologies, ie. screenreaders. They usually
pick up the anchor text well.


http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/articles/too-much-accessibility/too-much-accessibility-title-attributes/

is a very useful discussion of the TITLE attribute from an accessibility 
perspective.


I think the destination of a link is best made clear by the link text.

TITLE attributes are useful to provide tooltip text for icons however.

--
Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis


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RE: [WSG] Title attribute

[Jens-Uwe Korff]

> I was wondering how valuable the Title attribute is

Use the 'title' attribute when the link text needs to be short and
doesn't convey all a user needs to know, eg. Local news. In this case you also add a bit
of SEO.

I found that, contrary to what I believed previously, this is not
required for assistive technologies, ie. screenreaders. They usually
pick up the anchor text well.

Cheers,
 
Jens

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[WSG] Title attribute

[Hayden's Harness Attachment]

I was wondering how valuible th Title attribute is. I just visited 
http://www.google.com/analytics/ and see they do not use  and the new code I uploaded for an international nonprofit. 
Apperantly this code I uploaded is HTML and cSS valid. I was taught to do .

Angus MacKinnon
Infoforce Services
http://www.infoforce-services.com

"Faith is the strength by which a shattered world shall emerge into
the light." - Helen Keller



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Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers

[Rebecca Cox]

Thanks everyone for your replys.

Cheers :)
Rebecca

On 10/25/07, Steve Green <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I use keyboard controls a lot too, and generally regard the use of tabindex
> as a sign that a site was not designed properly in the first place. It
> causes a number of problems such as being unable to predict where the focus
> is going to go next. How can the designer predict what the user will want to
> do except in really trivial cases such as Google's home page?
>
> It can be utterly baffling for screen reader users because the sequence of
> elements is different in 'forms' mode (where tabindex is followed) and
> 'virtual cursor' mode (where it cannot be followed). I saw this recently in
> a user test on a site that sadly has to remain nameless because we are under
> an NDA (it only went live this year and they didn't fix it).
>
> Can you provide any examples of sites that use tabindex well?
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Rogier Schoenmaker
> Sent: 24 October 2007 20:51
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers
>
> Personally, I often still use the keyboard because I'm fast with it.
> And I really like good tabindexes. Why do you think they are useless?
>
> Regards,
>
> Rogier.
>
> On 24/10/2007, Tee G. Peng <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >>
> > >
> > > So it's concluded that title attribute is as useless as tabindex and
> > > accesskey and therefor shouldn't be used at all?
> > >
> > > Need acknowledge by your accessible mastero :)
> > >
> >
> > Need acknowledge "from" your accessible mastero :-) tee
> >
> Great addition Tee, not everybody is a native english speaker :)
> >
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RE: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers

[Steve Green]

I use keyboard controls a lot too, and generally regard the use of tabindex
as a sign that a site was not designed properly in the first place. It
causes a number of problems such as being unable to predict where the focus
is going to go next. How can the designer predict what the user will want to
do except in really trivial cases such as Google's home page?

It can be utterly baffling for screen reader users because the sequence of
elements is different in 'forms' mode (where tabindex is followed) and
'virtual cursor' mode (where it cannot be followed). I saw this recently in
a user test on a site that sadly has to remain nameless because we are under
an NDA (it only went live this year and they didn't fix it).

Can you provide any examples of sites that use tabindex well?

Steve

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rogier Schoenmaker
Sent: 24 October 2007 20:51
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers

Personally, I often still use the keyboard because I'm fast with it.
And I really like good tabindexes. Why do you think they are useless?

Regards,

Rogier.

On 24/10/2007, Tee G. Peng <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >
> > So it's concluded that title attribute is as useless as tabindex and 
> > accesskey and therefor shouldn't be used at all?
> >
> > Need acknowledge by your accessible mastero :)
> >
>
> Need acknowledge "from" your accessible mastero :-) tee
>
Great addition Tee, not everybody is a native english speaker :)
>
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Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers

[Rogier Schoenmaker]

Personally, I often still use the keyboard because I'm fast with it.
And I really like good tabindexes. Why do you think they are useless?

Regards,

Rogier.

On 24/10/2007, Tee G. Peng <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >
> > So it's concluded that title attribute is as useless as tabindex
> > and accesskey and therefor shouldn't be used at all?
> >
> > Need acknowledge by your accessible mastero :)
> >
>
> Need acknowledge "from" your accessible mastero :-)
> tee
>
Great addition Tee, not everybody is a native english speaker :)
>
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Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Chris Price wrote:


I stand corrected.


You can sit as well, it's fine :)

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
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Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers

[Chris Price]

Patrick H. Lauke wrote:

Chris Price wrote:

Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
Also, sighted keyboard users will never see them either. 

If they use IE.


Or Firefox, or Safari, or Opera, ...

Try tabbing to a link with a title via keyboard, and tell me if it 
brings up a tooltip or similar to let a sighted user read the title...


P

I stand corrected.

Kind Regards
--
Chris Price

Choctaw

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.choctaw.co.uk

Tel. 01524 825 245
Mob. 0777 451 4488

Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder
while Excellence is in the Hand of the Professional

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Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers

[Tee G. Peng]

So it's concluded that title attribute is as useless as tabindex  
and accesskey and therefor shouldn't be used at all?


Need acknowledge by your accessible mastero :)



Need acknowledge "from" your accessible mastero :-)
tee


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Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers

[Tee G. Peng]

On Oct 24, 2007, at 4:27 AM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:




Try tabbing to a link with a title via keyboard, and tell me if it  
brings up a tooltip or similar to let a sighted user read the title...




So it's concluded that title attribute is as useless as tabindex and  
accesskey and therefor shouldn't be used at all?


Need acknowledge by your accessible mastero :)

tee


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Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers

[Philippe Wittenbergh]

Patrick H. Lauke wrote:


Chris Price wrote:

Patrick H. Lauke wrote:

Also, sighted keyboard users will never see them either.

If they use IE.


Or Firefox, or Safari, or Opera, ...

Try tabbing to a link with a title via keyboard, and tell me if it  
brings up a tooltip or similar to let a sighted user read the title...


In Firefox 2.0, a keyboard user can see the title attribute, but  
_only_ for images.

Under Tools > Page Info (command+I on Mac), select the media tab.

But that is going away Firefox 3, where the whole Page Info window  
has been greatly simplified.  The reasoning being: most of this could  
be added by an extension. And I think there is one under development,  
not sure.


Philippe
---
Philippe Wittenbergh






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Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Chris Price wrote:

Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
Also, sighted keyboard users will never see them either. 

If they use IE.


Or Firefox, or Safari, or Opera, ...

Try tabbing to a link with a title via keyboard, and tell me if it 
brings up a tooltip or similar to let a sighted user read the title...


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team
http://streetteam.webstandards.org/
__


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Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers

[Steven Faulkner]

> > Also, sighted keyboard users will never see them either.
> If they use IE.

although users of firefox can access the title attribute via the
keyboard, there is no way for them to know that there is a title there
to be queried, unlike mouse users who are presented with the title as
a tooltp when they mouse over a link (or any other element). So
effectively they will never be seen.

Also there is no method that I know of to access the title attribute
content in other browser (Opera etc)

On 24/10/2007, Chris Price <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
> > Also, sighted keyboard users will never see them either.
> If they use IE.
>
> Kind Regards
> --
> Chris Price
>
> Choctaw
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www.choctaw.co.uk
>
> Tel. 01524 825 245
> Mob. 0777 451 4488
>
> Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder
> while Excellence is in the Hand of the Professional
>
> ~~~
> -+- Sent on behalf of Choctaw Media Ltd -+-
> ~~~
>
> Choctaw Media Limited is a company
> registered in England and Wales
> with company number 04627649
>
> Registered Office:
> Lonsdale Partners,
> Priory Close,
> St Mary's Gate,
> Lancaster LA1 1XB
> United Kingdom
>
>
>
>
> ***
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>


-- 
with regards

Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG Europe
Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium

www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org
Web Accessibility Toolbar -
http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html


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Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers

[Chris Price]

Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
Also, sighted keyboard users will never see them either. 

If they use IE.

Kind Regards
--
Chris Price

Choctaw

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.choctaw.co.uk

Tel. 01524 825 245
Mob. 0777 451 4488

Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder
while Excellence is in the Hand of the Professional

~~~
-+- Sent on behalf of Choctaw Media Ltd -+-
~~~

Choctaw Media Limited is a company
registered in England and Wales
with company number 04627649

Registered Office:
Lonsdale Partners,
Priory Close,
St Mary's Gate,
Lancaster LA1 1XB
United Kingdom




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RE: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers

[Frank Palinkas]

Thanks Steven. Combined with Patrick's reply, and based on your experience
and deep involvement with accessibility, this is indeed excellent, practical
advice.

Kind regards,

Frank

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Steven Faulkner
Sent: Wednesday, 24 October, 2007 12:17 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers

Hi Frank,
I would suggest that if you want the information available to screen
reader users or keyboard only users (as title attribute content is not
available to keyboard users), then don't place it in the title
attribute on links.

On 24/10/2007, Frank Palinkas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Steve,
>
> If I may follow on to Rebecca's query and based your reply, is it then
> considered good practice (in general) _not_ to add title attributes and
> values to hyperlinks?
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Frank
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Steven Faulkner
> Sent: Wednesday, 24 October, 2007 11:20 AM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers
>
> Hi Rebecca,
> announcing of title attribute values on links is not a default screen
> reader behaviour and for JAWS the announcing of the title attribute is
> an OR choice (read title or link content) so effectively the title
> attribute conentt for links is unavailable to most screen reader
> users.
>
> On 24/10/2007, Rebecca Cox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I'm looking for up to date info on title attribute behaviour & screen
> > readers, especially where used on site global navigation.
> >
> > As an example, http://www.e.govt.nz uses fairly long title attributes
> > for the main navigation links, and this repeats throughout the site
> > (i.e., not just on the home page).
> >
> > For example, "About e-govt" in the left nav has:
> >
> > http://www.e.govt.nz/about-egovt";>
> >About e-govt
> > 
> >
> > Main thing I'm wondering is, with a screen reader, if reading out of
> > title attribute text is
> > enabled, are you forced to listen to the full title text each time it
> > is encountered, or can you skip over it?
> >
> > In the above example, the title attribute is applied to a span nested
> > inside the link, rather than to the link itself - would this make any
> > difference?
> >
> > (Comparing this to phone customer support or online banking services -
> > some force you to listen to the full spiel about each option before
> > you can do anything, others don't - they allow you to activate your
> > menu choice without listening to the full explanatory message.)
> >
> > Or are most screen reader users not using title attribute text - some
> > time ago there was an article published suggesting most had it
> > disabled...
> >
> > Would appreciate any information anyone might have on how this works!
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Rebecca
> >
> >
> > ***
> > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > ***
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> with regards
>
> Steve Faulkner
> Technical Director - TPG Europe
> Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium
>
> www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org
> Web Accessibility Toolbar -
> http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***
>
>
>
> ***
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> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***
>
>


-- 
with regards

Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG Europe
Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium

www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org
Web Accessibility Toolbar -
http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html


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RE: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers

[Frank Palinkas]

Thanks Patrick. That answers my question, and reinforces the importance of
employing clear, and concise link text.  

Kind regards,

Frank

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
Sent: Wednesday, 24 October, 2007 12:10 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers

Frank Palinkas wrote:

> If I may follow on to Rebecca's query and based your reply, is it then
> considered good practice (in general) _not_ to add title attributes and
> values to hyperlinks?

You can add them, but you must be aware that it's likely that screen 
reader users won't hear them by default. Also, sighted keyboard users 
will never see them either. You can add advisory/optional info in the 
title, but nothing that is critical to understanding what a link 
is/does. Most of the time, I find that it's better to ensure that the 
clearly visible link text is self-evident enough, and doing away with 
titles altogether.

P
-- 
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re*dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team
http://streetteam.webstandards.org/
__


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Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers

[Steven Faulkner]

Hi Frank,
I would suggest that if you want the information available to screen
reader users or keyboard only users (as title attribute content is not
available to keyboard users), then don't place it in the title
attribute on links.

On 24/10/2007, Frank Palinkas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Steve,
>
> If I may follow on to Rebecca's query and based your reply, is it then
> considered good practice (in general) _not_ to add title attributes and
> values to hyperlinks?
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Frank
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Steven Faulkner
> Sent: Wednesday, 24 October, 2007 11:20 AM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers
>
> Hi Rebecca,
> announcing of title attribute values on links is not a default screen
> reader behaviour and for JAWS the announcing of the title attribute is
> an OR choice (read title or link content) so effectively the title
> attribute conentt for links is unavailable to most screen reader
> users.
>
> On 24/10/2007, Rebecca Cox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I'm looking for up to date info on title attribute behaviour & screen
> > readers, especially where used on site global navigation.
> >
> > As an example, http://www.e.govt.nz uses fairly long title attributes
> > for the main navigation links, and this repeats throughout the site
> > (i.e., not just on the home page).
> >
> > For example, "About e-govt" in the left nav has:
> >
> > http://www.e.govt.nz/about-egovt";>
> >About e-govt
> > 
> >
> > Main thing I'm wondering is, with a screen reader, if reading out of
> > title attribute text is
> > enabled, are you forced to listen to the full title text each time it
> > is encountered, or can you skip over it?
> >
> > In the above example, the title attribute is applied to a span nested
> > inside the link, rather than to the link itself - would this make any
> > difference?
> >
> > (Comparing this to phone customer support or online banking services -
> > some force you to listen to the full spiel about each option before
> > you can do anything, others don't - they allow you to activate your
> > menu choice without listening to the full explanatory message.)
> >
> > Or are most screen reader users not using title attribute text - some
> > time ago there was an article published suggesting most had it
> > disabled...
> >
> > Would appreciate any information anyone might have on how this works!
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Rebecca
> >
> >
> > ***
> > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > ***
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> with regards
>
> Steve Faulkner
> Technical Director - TPG Europe
> Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium
>
> www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org
> Web Accessibility Toolbar -
> http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***
>
>
>
> ***
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> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***
>
>


-- 
with regards

Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG Europe
Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium

www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org
Web Accessibility Toolbar -
http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html


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Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Frank Palinkas wrote:


If I may follow on to Rebecca's query and based your reply, is it then
considered good practice (in general) _not_ to add title attributes and
values to hyperlinks?


You can add them, but you must be aware that it's likely that screen 
reader users won't hear them by default. Also, sighted keyboard users 
will never see them either. You can add advisory/optional info in the 
title, but nothing that is critical to understanding what a link 
is/does. Most of the time, I find that it's better to ensure that the 
clearly visible link text is self-evident enough, and doing away with 
titles altogether.


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team
http://streetteam.webstandards.org/
__


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RE: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi Steve,

If I may follow on to Rebecca's query and based your reply, is it then
considered good practice (in general) _not_ to add title attributes and
values to hyperlinks?

Kind regards,

Frank 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Steven Faulkner
Sent: Wednesday, 24 October, 2007 11:20 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers

Hi Rebecca,
announcing of title attribute values on links is not a default screen
reader behaviour and for JAWS the announcing of the title attribute is
an OR choice (read title or link content) so effectively the title
attribute conentt for links is unavailable to most screen reader
users.

On 24/10/2007, Rebecca Cox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm looking for up to date info on title attribute behaviour & screen
> readers, especially where used on site global navigation.
>
> As an example, http://www.e.govt.nz uses fairly long title attributes
> for the main navigation links, and this repeats throughout the site
> (i.e., not just on the home page).
>
> For example, "About e-govt" in the left nav has:
>
> http://www.e.govt.nz/about-egovt";>
>About e-govt
> 
>
> Main thing I'm wondering is, with a screen reader, if reading out of
> title attribute text is
> enabled, are you forced to listen to the full title text each time it
> is encountered, or can you skip over it?
>
> In the above example, the title attribute is applied to a span nested
> inside the link, rather than to the link itself - would this make any
> difference?
>
> (Comparing this to phone customer support or online banking services -
> some force you to listen to the full spiel about each option before
> you can do anything, others don't - they allow you to activate your
> menu choice without listening to the full explanatory message.)
>
> Or are most screen reader users not using title attribute text - some
> time ago there was an article published suggesting most had it
> disabled...
>
> Would appreciate any information anyone might have on how this works!
>
> Cheers,
> Rebecca
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***
>
>


-- 
with regards

Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG Europe
Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium

www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org
Web Accessibility Toolbar -
http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html


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Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers

[Steven Faulkner]

Hi Rebecca,
announcing of title attribute values on links is not a default screen
reader behaviour and for JAWS the announcing of the title attribute is
an OR choice (read title or link content) so effectively the title
attribute conentt for links is unavailable to most screen reader
users.

On 24/10/2007, Rebecca Cox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm looking for up to date info on title attribute behaviour & screen
> readers, especially where used on site global navigation.
>
> As an example, http://www.e.govt.nz uses fairly long title attributes
> for the main navigation links, and this repeats throughout the site
> (i.e., not just on the home page).
>
> For example, "About e-govt" in the left nav has:
>
> http://www.e.govt.nz/about-egovt";>
>About e-govt
> 
>
> Main thing I'm wondering is, with a screen reader, if reading out of
> title attribute text is
> enabled, are you forced to listen to the full title text each time it
> is encountered, or can you skip over it?
>
> In the above example, the title attribute is applied to a span nested
> inside the link, rather than to the link itself - would this make any
> difference?
>
> (Comparing this to phone customer support or online banking services -
> some force you to listen to the full spiel about each option before
> you can do anything, others don't - they allow you to activate your
> menu choice without listening to the full explanatory message.)
>
> Or are most screen reader users not using title attribute text - some
> time ago there was an article published suggesting most had it
> disabled...
>
> Would appreciate any information anyone might have on how this works!
>
> Cheers,
> Rebecca
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***
>
>


-- 
with regards

Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG Europe
Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium

www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org
Web Accessibility Toolbar -
http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html


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[WSG] Title attribute and screen readers

[Rebecca Cox]

Hi all,

I'm looking for up to date info on title attribute behaviour & screen
readers, especially where used on site global navigation.

As an example, http://www.e.govt.nz uses fairly long title attributes
for the main navigation links, and this repeats throughout the site
(i.e., not just on the home page).

For example, "About e-govt" in the left nav has:

http://www.e.govt.nz/about-egovt";>
About e-govt


Main thing I'm wondering is, with a screen reader, if reading out of
title attribute text is
enabled, are you forced to listen to the full title text each time it
is encountered, or can you skip over it?

In the above example, the title attribute is applied to a span nested
inside the link, rather than to the link itself - would this make any
difference?

(Comparing this to phone customer support or online banking services -
some force you to listen to the full spiel about each option before
you can do anything, others don't - they allow you to activate your
menu choice without listening to the full explanatory message.)

Or are most screen reader users not using title attribute text - some
time ago there was an article published suggesting most had it
disabled...

Would appreciate any information anyone might have on how this works!

Cheers,
Rebecca


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Re: [WSG] Title Attribute

[russ - maxdesign]

> The impression I'm getting from the replies today are "title" as an
> attribute, has inconsistent interpretation by most UA's. However, as
> an element it is essential to the document. Is this interpretation
> correct?

Steve's article would back up your comment that the title attribute is
inconsistently interpreted by a range of UAs.

The title element is essential in order to create a valid HTML4.01 or XHTML
1.0 document (not sure about HTML3.2 or earlier). You can test this yourself
by uploading a file with and without a title then validating it.  Hours of
fun!

Russ

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Re: [WSG] Title Attribute

[Chris Kennon]

Thanks,

The impression I'm getting from the replies today are "title" as an  
attribute, has inconsistent interpretation by most UA's. However, as  
an element it is essential to the document. Is this interpretation  
correct?





Respectfully,



Christopher Kennon
Principal & Creative Director -Bushidodeep
www.bushidodeep.com
___
"An ideal is merely the projection,
on an enormously enlarged scale,
of some aspect of personality."
 -- Aldus Huxley


On Jan 19, 2006, at 1:42 PM, russ - maxdesign wrote:

The flexibility of the title attribute (as opposed to the title  
element) can

be seen in the ever-exciting W3 technical reports. Two places that are
always a great read, and full of surprises are the "List of  
attributes" [1]

and "List of elements" [2].

The list of attributes shows the title and has info beside it  
saying its

related elements are:
"All elements but BASE, BASEFONT, HEAD, HTML, META, PARAM, SCRIPT,  
TITLE"


Before getting too excited though, an essential read on this topic  
is Steve

Faulkners "The Trouble with the Title attribute" [3].

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/index/attributes.html
[2] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/index/elements.html
[3] http://www.sf.id.au/ozewai/

Thanks
Russ



Hi,

My understanding of the title element appears shallow. Usage of the
title attribute within an Object , Frame and link is well documented.
However, when I encountered it with Some Text my was took on a wide-eyed look of embarrassment, as I was unaware
of its usage in this context. Would someone enlighten on the
flexibility of the title attribute?




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Re: [WSG] Title Attribute

[russ - maxdesign]

The flexibility of the title attribute (as opposed to the title element) can
be seen in the ever-exciting W3 technical reports. Two places that are
always a great read, and full of surprises are the "List of attributes" [1]
and "List of elements" [2].

The list of attributes shows the title and has info beside it saying its
related elements are:
"All elements but BASE, BASEFONT, HEAD, HTML, META, PARAM, SCRIPT, TITLE"

Before getting too excited though, an essential read on this topic is Steve
Faulkners "The Trouble with the Title attribute" [3].

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/index/attributes.html
[2] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/index/elements.html
[3] http://www.sf.id.au/ozewai/

Thanks
Russ


> Hi,
> 
> My understanding of the title element appears shallow. Usage of the
> title attribute within an Object , Frame and link is well documented.
> However, when I encountered it with Some Text p> my was took on a wide-eyed look of embarrassment, as I was unaware
> of its usage in this context. Would someone enlighten on the
> flexibility of the title attribute?
> 
> 

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Re: [WSG] Title Attribute

[Christian Montoya]

On 1/19/06, Chris Kennon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> My understanding of the title element appears shallow. Usage of the
> title attribute within an Object , Frame and link is well documented.
> However, when I encountered it with Some Text p> my was took on a wide-eyed look of embarrassment, as I was unaware
> of its usage in this context. Would someone enlighten on the
> flexibility of the title attribute?

Well, the title attribute really can be used for anything, like p and
ul and etc. But as far as I know, the only thing this adds is a little
tooltip popup of the title in some browsers. This isn't really useful,
it works like you often see with acronym tags, and it isn't used by
most screen readers or other non-visual devices. You can use
javascript to make cool popups that use the title attribute [1], but
nothing beats contextual information.

[1] much like you see at http://dustindiaz.com/

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com
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[WSG] Title Attribute

[Chris Kennon]

Hi,

My understanding of the title element appears shallow. Usage of the  
title attribute within an Object , Frame and link is well documented.  
However, when I encountered it with Some Textp> my was took on a wide-eyed look of embarrassment, as I was unaware  
of its usage in this context. Would someone enlighten on the  
flexibility of the title attribute?






Respectfully,
Christopher Kennon
Principal & Creative Director -Bushidodeep
http://bushidodeep.com/
__
"Knowing is not enough, you must apply;
willing is not enough, you must do."
 ---Bruce Lee


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