Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
Terrence Wood wrote: The best web standards thing I learnt in 2005 is: How to best use the summary attribute for screen reader users: The summary attribute is best used to describe the structure of the table, not to summarise it's content. A longer summary is better according to actual screen reader user testing. How do you know if your summary works, if you don't have any screen reader users to test with? You need two people, someone to read the summary and someone to draw the table. Read your summary aloud and see what the other person draws. If the result resembles your table then you are on the right track =) Example from complex financial table: summary=There are 8 columns. Column 1 names the appropriation and labels the row or rowgroup. Columns 2 through 5 report the numbers for 2004/5, where column 2 is Budgeted Annual, column 3 is Budgeted Other, column 4 is Estimated Actual Annual, column 5 is Estimated Actual Other. Columns 6 through 7 report the numbers for 2005/6 where column 6 is Vote Annual, column 7 is Vote Other. Column 8 contains narrative on the scope of the appropriation. Rows are grouped by appropriation type. Coming in late on this: As per the spec http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/tables.html#adef-summary summary = text [CS] This attribute provides a summary of the table's purpose and structure for user agents rendering to non-visual media such as speech and Braille. So I'd say it's a combination of *purpose* and structure, and I'd say that it should be in that order as well. Assuming a screenreader user gets the summary, they'd presumably want to know what the table is for first (so they can quickly decide whether or not they're interested in it or want to skip it) before getting a whole column one does this, column two does that structural description. So, something like Earnings for Blahblah Ltd in 2005, broken down by month. The first column has the months, the second column has the earnings for that particular month or something along those lines...(yes, I suck at examples, but you get the idea) -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
On 1 Jan 2006, at 6:00 AM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Coming in late on this: As per the spec http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/tables.html#adef-summary summary = text [CS] This attribute provides a summary of the table's purpose and structure for user agents rendering to non-visual media such as speech and Braille. So I'd say it's a combination of *purpose* and structure, and I'd say that it should be in that order as well. Assuming a screenreader user gets the summary, they'd presumably want to know what the table is for first (so they can quickly decide whether or not they're interested in it or want to skip it) before getting a whole column one does this, column two does that structural description. So, something like Earnings for Blahblah Ltd in 2005, broken down by month. The first column has the months, the second column has the earnings for that particular month or something along those lines...(yes, I suck at examples, but you get the idea) Sure, unless of course you are reading a page called Earnings for Blahblah in 2005 and your table has a caption like Earning for Blahblah 2005 by Month where repeating that info (the purpose) in the summary is redundant. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
+ getting into microformats And all the new buzzwords - AJAX, Web 2.0, tags, folksonomy... :) OK, kidding aside, the best thing I noticed this year was that I changed my approach to all the bits of web design - separated visuals, technology, standards etc. just don't matter - it's user who matters. User experience and user centered design is the key. And for sure, standards, good visuals, accessible and usable site as well as credibility and good information architecture are parts of it. Nothing of this can make the site by itself. -- Jan Brasna :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com | www.wdnews.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
Most important thing I learned was that XHTML is just 'tag soup' unless you serve it properly. (application/xhtml+xml). In consequence, the worst thing was finding that I had to have a radical rethink about my approach to producing web pages . . . Merry Christmas everybody, and thanks for lots of help, instruction and shared knowledge! Best Regards, Bob McClelland Cornwall (UK) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
2005/12/22, Jay Gilmore [EMAIL PROTECTED]: ... Still looking for a valid replacement to the IE CSS, display: inline-block; thing... What am I missing? display: inline-block is perfectly valid in CSS2.1 Is your problem that CSS validator defaults to CSS2 profile? You can change that selecting CSS2.1 for Profile in [2]. Sorry, if I misunderstood your statement. [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visuren.html#propdef-display [2] http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator-uri Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
Title: RE: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005. The summary attribute is best used to describe the structure of the table, not to summarise it's content ...ooops :) This is the best thing I've learnt this year now too!! Thanks a lot, ...and a general thanks to the people of this discussion list also. I read WSG most days of the year and post every now and then. You've all helped me a lot (without realising I should think) and I've learnt loads this year through this and other sources, I appreciate it a lot that the WSG is available. Have a great December break, Jamie Mason Skybet.com -Original Message- From: Terrence Wood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 21 December 2005 21:22 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005. The best web standards thing I learnt in 2005 is: How to best use the summary attribute for screen reader users: The summary attribute is best used to describe the structure of the table, not to summarise it's content. A longer summary is better according to actual screen reader user testing. How do you know if your summary works, if you don't have any screen reader users to test with? You need two people, someone to read the summary and someone to draw the table. Read your summary aloud and see what the other person draws. If the result resembles your table then you are on the right track =) Example from complex financial table: summary=There are 8 columns. Column 1 names the appropriation and labels the row or rowgroup. Columns 2 through 5 report the numbers for 2004/5, where column 2 is Budgeted Annual, column 3 is Budgeted Other, column 4 is Estimated Actual Annual, column 5 is Estimated Actual Other. Columns 6 through 7 report the numbers for 2005/6 where column 6 is Vote Annual, column 7 is Vote Other. Column 8 contains narrative on the scope of the appropriation. Rows are grouped by appropriation type. (yep.. rowgroup is jargon, but most people got it... you could say group of rows) HTH, please share your discovery in 2005. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
Terrence Wood wrote: HTH, please share your discovery in 2005. ... the moment when it (finally) dawned on me that CSS is object-based ! ;) + getting into microformats combining these two was an eye-opener: define abtract, re-usable formats for (X)HTML + package with accompanying CSS = less time styling the same repetitive content types :D ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
Rimantas Liubertas wrote: 2005/12/22, Jay Gilmore [EMAIL PROTECTED]: ... Still looking for a valid replacement to the IE CSS, display: inline-block; thing... What am I missing? display: inline-block is perfectly valid in CSS2.1 Is your problem that CSS validator defaults to CSS2 profile? You can change that selecting CSS2.1 for "Profile" in [2]. Sorry, if I misunderstood your statement. [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visuren.html#propdef-display [2] http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator-uri Regards, Rimantas Many thanks! It is always a pleasure being given a polite boot-in-the-a$$. I guess I'll be reading the 2.1 spec over the holiday. 2nd best thing I learned from this group -- inline-block is valid -- and -- I can change the default settings in Pederick's Toolbar. All the best, Jay
Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
Christopher, + getting into microformats I guess I missed something along the way. Where can I find out more about this? Bob ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
Bob Schwartz wrote: Christopher, + getting into microformats I guess I missed something along the way. Where can I find out more about this? http://microformats.org/ -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
You see, THAT is the best thing I learnt in 2005 - that there are always more things to learn! Just getting my toes wet in microformats, and understanding a bit more about XHTML... Leslie Riggs Christopher, + getting into microformats I guess I missed something along the way. Where can I find out more about this? Bob ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
designer wrote: Most important thing I learned was that XHTML is just 'tag soup' unless you serve it properly. (application/xhtml+xml). XHTML makes good soup... :-) ...when it _is_ XHTML. In consequence, the worst thing was finding that I had to have a radical rethink about my approach to producing web pages . . . One of the things I found out in 2005 was that I didn't have to change the basic 'real xhtml' procedures I came up with in 2002. Now I have hopes that I may actually be able to use them _as I want to_ - on the web - before writing 2010. Merry Christmas to all. Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
Best thing I learned in 2005: CSS. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
btw George Hey thanks for all your help over the last year. The first time i tried to build a site with ws i got so frustrated I shelved it for 6 months. Now because of this list i am comfortable creating fixed width layouts and can mark up any design i can come up with. whats more I can honestly say that my knowlege of standards, such as it is, is starting to generate SUBSTANTIAL business for me. My ws goal in 2006 is to become comfortable with liquid layouts an maybe even start using ems instead of px. nollaig seona duith kvnmcwebn ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
My greatest discovery was seeing how images could be sized using % at WebEssentials. :) My greatest let-down was learning that it wasn't supported in IE. :( -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terrence Wood Sent: Thursday, 22 December 2005 8:22 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005. The best web standards thing I learnt in 2005 is: How to best use the summary attribute for screen reader users: The summary attribute is best used to describe the structure of the table, not to summarise it's content. A longer summary is better according to actual screen reader user testing. How do you know if your summary works, if you don't have any screen reader users to test with? You need two people, someone to read the summary and someone to draw the table. Read your summary aloud and see what the other person draws. If the result resembles your table then you are on the right track =) Example from complex financial table: summary=There are 8 columns. Column 1 names the appropriation and labels the row or rowgroup. Columns 2 through 5 report the numbers for 2004/5, where column 2 is Budgeted Annual, column 3 is Budgeted Other, column 4 is Estimated Actual Annual, column 5 is Estimated Actual Other. Columns 6 through 7 report the numbers for 2005/6 where column 6 is Vote Annual, column 7 is Vote Other. Column 8 contains narrative on the scope of the appropriation. Rows are grouped by appropriation type. (yep.. rowgroup is jargon, but most people got it... you could say group of rows) HTH, please share your discovery in 2005. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
The best web standards thing I found this year was this mailing list. You guys are great! ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
There's no prize Graham but I'm gonna say, Aww...shucks anyway. :) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kenny Graham Sent: Thursday, 22 December 2005 9:21 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005. The best web standards thing I found this year was this mailing list. You guys are great! ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
Hi Terrence, The summary attribute is best used to describe the structure of the table, not to summarise it's content. Thanks for sharing that with us. Can you please let me know the source of this info? Anybody else have an opinion on this? Regards, -Vlad http://xstandard.com Original Message From: Terrence Wood Date: 12/21/2005 4:22 PM The best web standards thing I learnt in 2005 is: How to best use the summary attribute for screen reader users: The summary attribute is best used to describe the structure of the table, not to summarise it's content. A longer summary is better according to actual screen reader user testing. How do you know if your summary works, if you don't have any screen reader users to test with? You need two people, someone to read the summary and someone to draw the table. Read your summary aloud and see what the other person draws. If the result resembles your table then you are on the right track =) Example from complex financial table: summary=There are 8 columns. Column 1 names the appropriation and labels the row or rowgroup. Columns 2 through 5 report the numbers for 2004/5, where column 2 is Budgeted Annual, column 3 is Budgeted Other, column 4 is Estimated Actual Annual, column 5 is Estimated Actual Other. Columns 6 through 7 report the numbers for 2005/6 where column 6 is Vote Annual, column 7 is Vote Other. Column 8 contains narrative on the scope of the appropriation. Rows are grouped by appropriation type. (yep.. rowgroup is jargon, but most people got it... you could say group of rows) HTH, please share your discovery in 2005. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
best things i learned this year- 1)the star selector hack and before that the underscore hack ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
kvnmcwebn wrote: best things i learned this year- 1)the star selector hack and before that the underscore hack Best thing I learned this year- 1) How to stop using hacks ;-) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
Semantics in mark-up. Minimize Div's and Span use. Still looking for a valid replacement to the IE CSS, display: inline-block; thing... All the best, Jay Paul Noone wrote: It's a God-send. If only it had been properly explained sooner. Fortunately my recent conversion to virtually tableless websites means I do't have many changes to make. :) -- Paul A Noone Webmaster, ASHM [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Vlad Alexander (XStandard) Sent: Thursday, 22 December 2005 9:56 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005. Hi Terrence, The summary attribute is best used to describe the structure of the table, not to summarise it's content. Thanks for sharing that with us. Can you please let me know the source of this info? Anybody else have an opinion on this? Regards, -Vlad http://xstandard.com Original Message From: Terrence Wood Date: 12/21/2005 4:22 PM The best web standards thing I learnt in 2005 is: How to best use the summary attribute for screen reader users: The summary attribute is best used to describe the structure of the table, not to summarise it's content. A longer summary is better according to actual screen reader user testing. How do you know if your summary works, if you don't have any screen reader users to test with? You need two people, someone to read the summary and someone to draw the table. Read your summary aloud and see what the other person draws. If the result resembles your table then you are on the right track =) Example from complex financial table: summary="There are 8 columns. Column 1 names the appropriation and labels the row or rowgroup. Columns 2 through 5 report the numbers for 2004/5, where column 2 is Budgeted Annual, column 3 is Budgeted Other, column 4 is Estimated Actual Annual, column 5 is Estimated Actual Other. Columns 6 through 7 report the numbers for 2005/6 where column 6 is Vote Annual, column 7 is Vote Other. Column 8 contains narrative on the scope of the appropriation. Rows are grouped by appropriation type." (yep.. "rowgroup" is jargon, but most people got it... you could say "group of rows") HTH, please share your discovery in 2005. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
Transition from tables to web standards is one of the goals I didn't achieve this year. But finding this list was, for sure, one of the best things of the year. Learnt LOT of things, and still have lots more to learn... Migrating completely to Web Standards is one of them (and it's in the top of the list) Cheers! AlvAro - 2005/12/21, Rachel Radford [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Sheesh, I've learnt everything this year! Transition from tables to web standards :D The most revolutionary of all would probably creating forms using labels, field sets etc. instead of tables. The coolest would be style-switching (I know it's not new - but new to me in 2005!) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terrence Wood Sent: Thursday, 22 December 2005 10:22 a.m. To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005. The best web standards thing I learnt in 2005 is: How to best use the summary attribute for screen reader users: The summary attribute is best used to describe the structure of the table, not to summarise it's content. A longer summary is better according to actual screen reader user testing. How do you know if your summary works, if you don't have any screen reader users to test with? You need two people, someone to read the summary and someone to draw the table. Read your summary aloud and see what the other person draws. If the result resembles your table then you are on the right track =) Example from complex financial table: summary=There are 8 columns. Column 1 names the appropriation and labels the row or rowgroup. Columns 2 through 5 report the numbers for 2004/5, where column 2 is Budgeted Annual, column 3 is Budgeted Other, column 4 is Estimated Actual Annual, column 5 is Estimated Actual Other. Columns 6 through 7 report the numbers for 2005/6 where column 6 is Vote Annual, column 7 is Vote Other. Column 8 contains narrative on the scope of the appropriation. Rows are grouped by appropriation type. (yep.. rowgroup is jargon, but most people got it... you could say group of rows) HTH, please share your discovery in 2005. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
Not the best thing I learnt, but the best thing I did: going to Web Essentials. I can't wait for next year. -- Kay Smoljak http://kay.zombiecoder.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
Best new bit of knowledge for me in 2005? XSL. If you know and enjoy using CSS, dive into XSL; it'll rock your world :) hoping everyone has a safe and happy holiday season, Andrew.
Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
Two of the best things I've picked up this year include: * minimizing container and wrapper DIVs, writing minimalist CSS * I learned this last year, but still love it to death: margin: 0 20px 10px 0; instead of writing margin-top, margin-bottom, etc. Francesco Sanfilippo Web Architect and Software Developer http://www.blackcoil.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] 402-932-5695 home office 402-676-3011 mobile Professional web developer and Internet consultant with 10 years experience. Specializing in ASP.NET, C#, SQL Server, CSS/XHTML, and digital photography. Founder and developer of URL123.com - now serving 2 million clicks per month. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
