Re: [Xastir] Radio frequency question from a simpleton

[Earl Needham]

At 02:40 PM 7/19/2007, Curt, WE7U wrote:

That said, there's no reason not to approach him and ask him what's
up with the possible fees.  There may be none or they may be low
enough that it's a don't care.  Or:  They may be high and then legal
advice might be necessary to figure out what's possible.


I'm pretty much a pack rat -- here's the SECOND paragraph of 
commercl.txt from the zip file I downloaded on 1/17/99:



COMMERCIAL VERSIONS OF APRS ARE AVAILABLE and we can engineer specific
needs and applications.  Pricing is $295 for the first dispatcher
copy of APRS which includes up to 10 mobiles.  Additional copies of
APRS are deeply discounted.  $195 for the second copy and $95 for the
third.  Additional mobiles begin at $25 and are similarly discounted
for large quantities.  Additional copies of APRS for mobiles with PC's are
significantly less.  Two significant enhancements for the dispatcher are
the OPTIONAL data interfaces so that APRS CAN SEND POSITS TO OTHER SOFTWARE
PACKAGES.  Some of these other packages can zoom into the individual street
address and access other data bases for dispatching of fleet vehicles.
There are currently two such interfaces:


7 3
Earl

KD5XB -- Earl Needham
Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cw_bugs
ZUT 



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Re: [Xastir] Radio frequency question from a simpleton

[Curt, WE7U]

On Thu, 19 Jul 2007, Gerry Creager wrote:

> As I recall, there was approximately one station reporting "problems"
> associated with the OpenTrak incident in question.  The lack of
> reproducibility suggests that the null hypothesis was rejected.

Another data point:  I ran a dual OpenTrac/APRS transmitter from my
Jeep for something like 1.5 years or so, with no complaints.  This
is a high-use APRS area:  Puget Sound which includes Seattle/
Tacoma/ Vancouver(BC)/ Victoria(BC).

In fact, I think only one guy noticed that I was sending OpenTrac
packets at all.  He's on this SIG and noticed additional "stuff" in
Xastir's "Station Info" dialog for my station...

--
Curt, WE7U.   APRS Client Comparisons: http://www.eskimo.com/~archer
"Lotto:A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown
"Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U
"The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!"
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Re: [Xastir] Radio frequency question from a simpleton

[Curt, WE7U]

On Thu, 19 Jul 2007, Lance Cotton wrote:

> Well, I think we ended up doing a little survey and found zero APRS
> programs that didn't check PID, right?

More than likely, but there's always the possibility that we missed
one or two, or that new programs may forget to check the PID byte.


> It's hard to remember -- my wife
> found a gray hair in my head last week!

If you need any more, let me know.

--
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"Lotto:A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown
"Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U
"The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!"
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Re: [Xastir] Radio frequency question from a simpleton

[Gerry Creager]

Curt, WE7U wrote:

On Thu, 19 Jul 2007, J. Lance Cotton wrote:





Oh, I thought you already did!  hi hi



There's no possible way that OpenTRAC could interfere with APRS any more
than APRS interferes with other APRS operation.


I disagree with that statement, but only slightly.  There's no way a
"properly coded" APRS program would be bothered by OpenTrac.  Some
of the programs might try to decode packets that used a different
protocol ID than APRS, for instance if they had KISS TNC capability
they might see TCP/IP packets and OpenTrac packets and try to decode
them as APRS.  The program in this case _should_ filter out anything
that's not the APRS protocol ID, but some may not.


As I recall, there was approximately one station reporting "problems" 
associated with the OpenTrak incident in question.  The lack of 
reproducibility suggests that the null hypothesis was rejected.



Your post was on topic BTW.  At least as far as I'm concerned.


I certainly don't think it rated a  tag with attribution.

gerry
--
Gerry Creager -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Texas Mesonet -- AATLT, Texas A&M University
Cell: 979.229.5301 Office: 979.458.4020 FAX: 979.862.3983
Office: 1700 Research Parkway Ste 160, TAMU, College Station, TX 77843

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Re: [Xastir] Radio frequency question from a simpleton

[Lance Cotton]

Curt, WE7U wrote:

On Thu, 19 Jul 2007, J. Lance Cotton wrote:



There's no possible way that OpenTRAC could interfere with APRS any more
than APRS interferes with other APRS operation.


I disagree with that statement, but only slightly.  There's no way a
"properly coded" APRS program would be bothered by OpenTrac.  Some
of the programs might try to decode packets that used a different
protocol ID than APRS, for instance if they had KISS TNC capability
they might see TCP/IP packets and OpenTrac packets and try to decode
them as APRS.  The program in this case _should_ filter out anything
that's not the APRS protocol ID, but some may not.


Well, I think we ended up doing a little survey and found zero APRS 
programs that didn't check PID, right? It's hard to remember -- my wife 
found a gray hair in my head last week!


-Lance KJ5O

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Re: [Xastir] Radio frequency question from a simpleton

[Curt, WE7U]

On Thu, 19 Jul 2007, J. Lance Cotton wrote:

> 

Oh, I thought you already did!  hi hi


> There's no possible way that OpenTRAC could interfere with APRS any more
> than APRS interferes with other APRS operation.

I disagree with that statement, but only slightly.  There's no way a
"properly coded" APRS program would be bothered by OpenTrac.  Some
of the programs might try to decode packets that used a different
protocol ID than APRS, for instance if they had KISS TNC capability
they might see TCP/IP packets and OpenTrac packets and try to decode
them as APRS.  The program in this case _should_ filter out anything
that's not the APRS protocol ID, but some may not.

Your post was on topic BTW.  At least as far as I'm concerned.

--
Curt, WE7U.   APRS Client Comparisons: http://www.eskimo.com/~archer
"Lotto:A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown
"Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U
"The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!"
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Re: [Xastir] Radio frequency question from a simpleton

[J. Lance Cotton]

on 7/19/2007 3:40 PM Curt, WE7U said the following:
> I've always heard that you can't protect a protocol, but IANAL.

The typical way of protecting (in some sense) a protocol or standard is to
aggressively protect the copyright of the specification document. The actual
grouping of bits or whatnot that come about in the actual operation of an
electronic protocol or standard cannot be trademarked, copyrighted, or
patented, as far as I am aware.

But any creative "work" can be copyrighted and in fact is automatically
protected by U.S. copyright law upon its creation.

In the case of APRS, the only things Bob can legally protect are:

1) The trademark "APRS" and "APRS - (Amateur|Automatic) (Position|Packet)
Reporting Service"

2) The APRS Spec 1.0 and 1.1, though since those were created by a
committee, I don't know if Bob has exclusive rights to copy that document or
what.

A person *could* create a specification document (of original,
non-plagiarized information) that described a protocol compatible with APRS
and could give it a name other than APRS and it would be perfectly legal,
even if it would upset some folks.


Recall on APRSSIG the fluff when someone proposed/introduced/mentioned Scott
Miller's OpenTRAC protocol, which conveys much of the same information as
APRS, only organized and regularized a bit differently from APRS. The
central issue (with Bob) was that a different "protocol" would interfere
with APRS if used on the same frequency. The truth is that in the FCC's
eyes, APRS and OpenTRAC are both 20kHz (or thereabouts) wide AFSK FM
modulated data with carrier-sense method of collision avoidance. Even beyond
that minimal commonality, both APRS and OpenTRAC use identical (OSI Model)
Level 2/3 protocol of AX.25 on the air.

There's no possible way that OpenTRAC could interfere with APRS any more
than APRS interferes with other APRS operation.

In the end, it came out that Bob was worried that if people started using
OpenTRAC on 144.39 MHz, then folks using APRS-only programs might not see
all symbols on their screen that the packet-braaaping on the air would indicate.

Note: I don't hate Bob B. or APRS or anything or anyone else. I just get
annoyed by illogical arguments. Live long and prosper \V/



-- 
J. Lance Cotton, KJ5O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://kj5o.lightningflash.net
Three Step Plan: 1. Take over the world. 2. Get a lot of cookies. 3. Eat the
cookies.

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Re: [Xastir] Radio frequency question from a simpleton

[James Ewen]

On 7/19/07, Curt, WE7U <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I've always heard that you can't protect a protocol, but IANAL.


If you have enough money you can protect whatever you want...

http://www.sbszoo.com/irlp/

When we put together the local IRLP link, I created a "fun" logo to
put on the box. Within 6 months the Intel lawyers were threatening to
sue for trademark infringement. We had to cease and desist from using
the logo, and we also were not able to use the phrase " inside",
where  was any word.

Some people have no sense of humor.

James
VE6SRV
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Re: [Xastir] Radio frequency question from a simpleton

[Curt, WE7U]

On Thu, 19 Jul 2007, Gerry Creager wrote:

> Xastir's use of the protocols is well established and without dissent.
>  From Bob or any of the other developers.  In fact, no one has
> complained when anyone wanted to come up with another implementation.

Hmmm.  I can recall when Xastir was the bastard child of the whole
APRS scene and we had to struggle hard to compete with the true-blue
licensees.  It hasn't always been roses, but has been for quite some
time now.

--
Curt, WE7U.   APRS Client Comparisons: http://www.eskimo.com/~archer
"Lotto:A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown
"Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U
"The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!"
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Re: [Xastir] Radio frequency question from a simpleton

[Curt, WE7U]

On Thu, 19 Jul 2007, James Ewen wrote:

> Does Xastir get around the license for reception because the software
> is not for sale, or did someone purchase a license? I would guess that
> if Xastir purchased a license somewhere along the way, that it would
> probably go against the GPL license...

Bob granted us a license.


> Uh-oh... sounds like the lid just popped off a can of worms.

Not really.  I've seen this sort of discussion again and again.  My
take on it is that you can't protect the protocol.  He can certainly
protect his trademark and his software.

That said, there's no reason not to approach him and ask him what's
up with the possible fees.  There may be none or they may be low
enough that it's a don't care.  Or:  They may be high and then legal
advice might be necessary to figure out what's possible.

I've always heard that you can't protect a protocol, but IANAL.

--
Curt, WE7U.   APRS Client Comparisons: http://www.eskimo.com/~archer
"Lotto:A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown
"Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U
"The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!"
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Re: [Xastir] Radio frequency question from a simpleton

[Gerry Creager]

Xastir's use of the protocols is well established and without dissent. 
From Bob or any of the other developers.  In fact, no one has 
complained when anyone wanted to come up with another implementation. 
Bob also didn't charge me when I used APRS-DOS (pre-Xastir) to track cows...


gerry

James Ewen wrote:

On 7/19/07, Curt, WE7U <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On Thu, 19 Jul 2007, Jason Winningham wrote:

>
> On Jul 19, 2007, at 2:20 PM, James Ewen wrote:
>
> > Plus APRS is available for no fee to the amateur radio community, but
> > you need to talk to Bob Bruninga about licensing it for commercial
> > use.
>
> I thought that was for the application APRS-DOS, not the protocol
> itself?

That's my take on it too Jason.



From :


http://web.usna.navy.mil/~bruninga/APRS-docs/COMMERCL.TXT

COPYRIGHT 1993,94,95,96,97:  The APRS formats originated for use in the
amateur radio service.  Anyone is encouraged to apply the APRS formats in
the TRANSMISSION of position, weather, and status packets.  However, the
author reserves the ownership of these protocols for exclusive commercial
application and for all reception and plotting applications.  Other
software engineers desiring to include APRS RECEPTION in their software
for sale within or outside of the amateur community will require a license
from the author.  (very reasonably priced)


The wording is poor, but the intent is pretty clear... Bob reserves
ownership of the protocol for commercial use. Not just the program he
wrote to encode/decode the protocol, but the actual APRS protocol.

Does Xastir get around the license for reception because the software
is not for sale, or did someone purchase a license? I would guess that
if Xastir purchased a license somewhere along the way, that it would
probably go against the GPL license...

Uh-oh... sounds like the lid just popped off a can of worms.

James
VE6SRV
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Texas Mesonet -- AATLT, Texas A&M University
Cell: 979.229.5301 Office: 979.458.4020 FAX: 979.862.3983
Office: 1700 Research Parkway Ste 160, TAMU, College Station, TX 77843

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Re: [Xastir] Radio frequency question from a simpleton

[James Ewen]

On 7/19/07, Curt, WE7U <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On Thu, 19 Jul 2007, Jason Winningham wrote:

>
> On Jul 19, 2007, at 2:20 PM, James Ewen wrote:
>
> > Plus APRS is available for no fee to the amateur radio community, but
> > you need to talk to Bob Bruninga about licensing it for commercial
> > use.
>
> I thought that was for the application APRS-DOS, not the protocol
> itself?

That's my take on it too Jason.



From :


http://web.usna.navy.mil/~bruninga/APRS-docs/COMMERCL.TXT

COPYRIGHT 1993,94,95,96,97:  The APRS formats originated for use in the
amateur radio service.  Anyone is encouraged to apply the APRS formats in
the TRANSMISSION of position, weather, and status packets.  However, the
author reserves the ownership of these protocols for exclusive commercial
application and for all reception and plotting applications.  Other
software engineers desiring to include APRS RECEPTION in their software
for sale within or outside of the amateur community will require a license
from the author.  (very reasonably priced)


The wording is poor, but the intent is pretty clear... Bob reserves
ownership of the protocol for commercial use. Not just the program he
wrote to encode/decode the protocol, but the actual APRS protocol.

Does Xastir get around the license for reception because the software
is not for sale, or did someone purchase a license? I would guess that
if Xastir purchased a license somewhere along the way, that it would
probably go against the GPL license...

Uh-oh... sounds like the lid just popped off a can of worms.

James
VE6SRV
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Re: [Xastir] Radio frequency question from a simpleton

[Curt, WE7U]

On Thu, 19 Jul 2007, Jason Winningham wrote:

>
> On Jul 19, 2007, at 2:20 PM, James Ewen wrote:
>
> > Plus APRS is available for no fee to the amateur radio community, but
> > you need to talk to Bob Bruninga about licensing it for commercial
> > use.
>
> I thought that was for the application APRS-DOS, not the protocol
> itself?

That's my take on it too Jason.


> If that gets to be a problem, switch to the OpenTrac protocol.

Which is only available on OpenTracker 1's, not on the 1+ or the
Tracker2 yet I don't believe.  You can't buy opentracker-1's
anymore.

Xastir supports both protocols, but is receive-only for OpenTrac
protocol (we can't transmit it yet).  Xastir is under the GPL
license and so requires no fee, whatever frequency you use it on.

Tom had it right on as far as the commercial licenses.  I'm in SAR
and have investigated this myself for my county.  We cannot
currently use APRS on our SAR frequencies.  We'd have to ammend our
licenses.

--
Curt, WE7U.   APRS Client Comparisons: http://www.eskimo.com/~archer
"Lotto:A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown
"Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U
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Re: [Xastir] Radio frequency question from a simpleton

[Jason Winningham]

On Jul 19, 2007, at 2:20 PM, James Ewen wrote:


Plus APRS is available for no fee to the amateur radio community, but
you need to talk to Bob Bruninga about licensing it for commercial
use.


I thought that was for the application APRS-DOS, not the protocol  
itself?


If that gets to be a problem, switch to the OpenTrac protocol.

-Jason
kg4wsv


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Re: [Xastir] Radio frequency question from a simpleton

[James Ewen]

On 7/19/07, Tom Russo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Getting a new license with data emissions permitted will
take quite some time (6 months or so turnaround in my experience to get
a public safety pool license application through the system).


Plus APRS is available for no fee to the amateur radio community, but
you need to talk to Bob Bruninga about licensing it for commercial
use.

Play in the amateur world for free to do an proof of concept ideas...

James
VE6SRV
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Re: [Xastir] Radio frequency question from a simpleton

[Tom Russo]

On Thu, Jul 19, 2007 at 10:21:26AM -0500, we recorded a bogon-computron 
collision of the <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> flavor, containing:
>  I am not Ham literate, but I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night and 
>  I have ordered the license prep manual
> 
>  I have read that APRS is conducted on 144.39 Hz.  My assumption is that 
>  there is nothing inherent in Xastir that is tied to that frequency, but 
>  rather the frequency is set by the radio.  Is this correct?

Yes.

>  My (extremely limited) understanding of the TNC is that it is not frequency 
>  dependent.  Is this something that most Ham operators would have?

Only those who wish to use packet radio applications.  The TNC is basically
a cross between modem that converts data to sound and a "network interface"
that packetizes the data in an envelope with addressing and routing
information.

>  Are the various tracker gizmos (Open tracker, Tracker2, Mini-Track, etc.) 
>  for a fixed frequency (144.39) or can be function on any frequency?

No.  They are basically TNC substitutes that need to be wired up to a radio.
The MicroTrak has a built-in radio that is on a fixed frequency, though.

>  For proof of concept as inexpensively as possible, I have a laptop running 
>  Xastir and have access to several radios (Motorola HT1250) that are tuned to 
>  Sheriff's, Fire, and EMS frequencies.  If I can find a TNC to borrow (or 
>  worst case buy one) and buy a few of the tracker kits to hook to Sheriff's 
>  radios, I should be able to demo it on an existing channel -- right?

Only if the license for the frequency in question allows data transmissions.
Most public safety pool licenses do *not*, because they were specified as
voice channels when the application was made.  The county would either have
to amend their license for those  frequencies, or apply for a new data
frequency with the emission mode specified.  Check the license (you can use
 to get the details of the license) for the
permitted modes.  Unfortunately, the emissions mode is specified in a funky
code in the FCC database, but "20K0F3E" means "FM voice" for all intents and
purposes.  I believe that FM data would be something like 20K0F1D
(20 KHz bandwidth, FM, Digital, Data, per 
).
  If the license doesn't have an "F1D" emission mode listed for it,
then it ain't legal to do APRS under that license.

Getting a new license with data emissions permitted will
take quite some time (6 months or so turnaround in my experience to get
a public safety pool license application through the system).

If you want a quick demo, you should get with some local hams and set it up.
See if the local ARES group is willing to help.  

-- 
Tom RussoKM5VY   SAR502   DM64ux  http://www.swcp.com/~russo/
Tijeras, NM  QRPL#1592 K2#398  SOC#236 AHTB#1 http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?DDTNM
"And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is
 one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh,
 oooh, the sky is the limit!"  --- The Tick
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[Xastir] Radio frequency question from a simpleton

[Jim Tolbert]

I am not Ham literate, but I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night 
and I have ordered the license prep manual


I have read that APRS is conducted on 144.39 Hz.  My assumption is that 
there is nothing inherent in Xastir that is tied to that frequency, but 
rather the frequency is set by the radio.  Is this correct?


My (extremely limited) understanding of the TNC is that it is not 
frequency dependent.  Is this something that most Ham operators would have?


Are the various tracker gizmos (Open tracker, Tracker2, Mini-Track, 
etc.) for a fixed frequency (144.39) or can be function on any frequency?


For proof of concept as inexpensively as possible, I have a laptop 
running Xastir and have access to several radios (Motorola HT1250) that 
are tuned to Sheriff's, Fire, and EMS frequencies.  If I can find a TNC 
to borrow (or worst case buy one) and buy a few of the tracker kits to 
hook to Sheriff's radios, I should be able to demo it on an existing 
channel -- right?


All (helpful) suggestions and comments will be gratefully accepted.   :-D

Many thanx... jt

--
Jim & Peggy Tolbert

715-866-4398 home office
715-349-8993 fax

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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