Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[Daniel Stone]

On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 01:59:15PM -0400, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
> I know very well that CAB is the kill switch, but it just occurred to
> me that it triggered by accident nevertheless. I was editing around
> in a graphical editor, where word-based movement is done with Ctrl.
> Certain commands require Shift and Alt to be held down too, and
> removing words is done traditionally with Backspace. Don't ask how
> exactly, but in this twirl it _just happened_ that I triggered CAB by
> accident. The only thing I could do at the moment is silently curse
> my employer for not using openSUSE. I do save very often, but still,
> I had to reload all the programs like xterms, xmms, and so on.
> 
> Simple conclusion, I want this patch in Xorg.

http://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/commit/?id=9d135ac10a7374c7ccda705f1eeb02cc53076c34


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature
___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[Jan Engelhardt]

dan wrote on September 23 2008:
>
>> Problem:  Many[1] users have killed X by accident.[2]
>>
>> Solution idea: Make it harder to kill X by accident.
 >
>Alternative solution: Allow users to learn by experience that
>Ctrl-Alt-Backspace kills X ... the more disasterous this is for
>them, the quicker they'll learn. The only time I've ever killed X by
>accident was when running XGL, and I don't remember the details of
>why this was happening, but anyway, the 'DontZap' option fixed
>things. Surely this is enough?


Experienced user speaking here.

I know very well that CAB is the kill switch, but it just occurred to
me that it triggered by accident nevertheless. I was editing around
in a graphical editor, where word-based movement is done with Ctrl.
Certain commands require Shift and Alt to be held down too, and
removing words is done traditionally with Backspace. Don't ask how
exactly, but in this twirl it _just happened_ that I triggered CAB by
accident. The only thing I could do at the moment is silently curse
my employer for not using openSUSE. I do save very often, but still,
I had to reload all the programs like xterms, xmms, and so on.

Simple conclusion, I want this patch in Xorg.
___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[olafBuddenhagen]

Hi,

On Tue, Oct 07, 2008 at 02:52:42PM +1030, Peter Hutterer wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 03, 2008 at 02:55:00AM +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:

> > I don't know whether this is really related (I'm pretty sure I
> > experienced that with kbd driver as well), but the fact that zap
> > depends on xkb is actually quite problematic: When the xkb map is
> > somehow borked, the server still starts, but it's not possible to
> > zap (nor to switch console)... This gets really ugly when no other
> > means to exit the server is available :-)
> 
> You're saying a broken installation causes certain features to not
> work? :)

Well, the point is that the zap is often the only way out when something
goes wrong, so it's particularily unfortunate when it breaks...

> If the xkb map is broken that usually means the server has a bug (->
> bugs.fdo.org) or xkeyboard-config is wrongly installed -> install it
> correctly (from git).
> 
> with either a released server and even git master there's no reason
> why the xkbmap should be busted.

Actually, a wrong/outdated xorg.conf is sufficient to break zapping.
Seen that more than once.

-antrik-
___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[Alan James Caruana]

I think that the key combination should remain the same.

However there could be some workaround for accidental X Server zapping, like
needing to press the combo twice or more, or bringing up a dialog box to
confirm that the user wants to close the X Server, or maybe even both 
i.e. by default a dialog box is brought up, but if the user presses the
combo again the server should be zapped.  That way, if the system is so
crashed that the user cannot even see the dialog box, he can still zap the
server if he needs to.

Cheers
Alan

On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 4:41 AM, Jason Spiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> Problem:  Many[1] users have killed X by accident.[2]
>
> Solution idea: Make it harder to kill X by accident.  E.g. you could
> change the key sequence users must press.
>   * Maybe require Control+Alt+Backspace then Control-Alt-Y.[3]
>   * Or require Control+K+X pressed simultaneously.
>
> What do you think?  Should Xorg change this key sequence?  Please vote
> "yes" or "no".  You can add comments too.  If you reply only to me by
> private mail, I will eventually summarize your reply to the list.
>
> Regards,
> -Jason
>
> ^ [1].  See http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10510 then
> scroll down to the "== Example evidence ==" section.  Or see
>
> http://www.google.com/search?q=accidentally+hit+%7C+press+%7C+hitting+%7C+pressing+control+%7C+ctrl+alt+backspace+x%7Cxorg
>
> ^ [2].  I filed a bug about this last year but it's still untriaged.
> So now I'm asking here.  It's bug 10510 (Xorg should use a more
> unlikely key combination than Control-Alt-Backspace as the server zap
> key): http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10510
>
> ^ [3].  After Control+Alt+Backspace, the PC speaker would beep once,
> the keyboard LEDs would blink a few times, and X
> would attempt to show a warning dialog.  Thanks to Elisée Maurer at
> http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10510#c1 for the
> warning-dialog idea.
>
> ___
> xorg mailing list
> xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
> http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[Peter Hutterer]

On Fri, Oct 03, 2008 at 02:55:00AM +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 01:52:53PM +0930, Peter Hutterer wrote:
> > driver kbd: hardcodes Ctrl + Alt + Backspace. (IMHO that's a bug anyway)
> > driver evdev: the XKB map decides what happens.
> 
> I don't know whether this is really related (I'm pretty sure I
> experienced that with kbd driver as well), but the fact that zap depends
> on xkb is actually quite problematic: When the xkb map is somehow
> borked, the server still starts, but it's not possible to zap (nor to
> switch console)... This gets really ugly when no other means to exit the
> server is available :-)

You're saying a broken installation causes certain features to not work? :)

If the xkb map is broken that usually means the server has a bug (->
bugs.fdo.org) or xkeyboard-config is wrongly installed -> install it correctly
(from git).

with either a released server and even git master there's no reason why the
xkbmap should be busted.

Cheers,
  Peter
___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[Mildred Ki'Lya]

Le Tue 23/09/2008 à 22:53 Ben Gamari (FOSS) à écrit:
> perhaps making use of the Pause/Break key in replacement of the
> Backspace key would be workable.

I strongly disagree, Some keyboards don't have such a key, so for those
unlucky people, killing X wouldn't be possible any more.

Mildred

-- 
Mildred Ki'Lya
╭─ ｍｉｌｄｒｅｄ５９３＠ｏｎｌｉｎｅ．ｆｒ ──
│ Jabber, GoogleTalk: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
│ Site:   GPG ID: 9A7D 2E2B
│ Fingerprint: 197C A7E6 645B 4299 6D37 684B 6F9D A8D6 9A7D 2E2B
___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[Harald Braumann]

On Fri, 3 Oct 2008 20:19:43 +0200
Harald Braumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> When zapping X is made impossible, users will find out about
> ctrl-prnt-b by accident.

Sorry, I mean alt-prnt-b.


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[Harald Braumann]

On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 03:52:55 + (UTC)
Jason Spiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Corbin Simpson  gmail.com> writes:
> ...
> > Seriously, no.
> 
> Your vote has been duly noted.
> 
> > Zap once, learn forever. No different than anything else,
> > really;
> 
> I still believe that Xorg should make it harder to make the mistake
> of an accidental zap.

When zapping X is made impossible, users will find out about
ctrl-prnt-b by accident.

Cheers,
harry


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[olafBuddenhagen]

Hi,

On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 01:52:53PM +0930, Peter Hutterer wrote:

> driver kbd: hardcodes Ctrl + Alt + Backspace. (IMHO that's a bug anyway)
> driver evdev: the XKB map decides what happens.

I don't know whether this is really related (I'm pretty sure I
experienced that with kbd driver as well), but the fact that zap depends
on xkb is actually quite problematic: When the xkb map is somehow
borked, the server still starts, but it's not possible to zap (nor to
switch console)... This gets really ugly when no other means to exit the
server is available :-)

-antrik-
___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[Dotan Cohen]

2008/9/23 Jason Spiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> Problem:  Many[1] users have killed X by accident.[2]
>
> Solution idea: Make it harder to kill X by accident.  E.g. you could
> change the key sequence users must press.
>   * Maybe require Control+Alt+Backspace then Control-Alt-Y.[3]
>   * Or require Control+K+X pressed simultaneously.
>
> What do you think?

Here is the problem. You are asking users who think (and subscribe to
computer-related mailing lists) to make a decision for non-thinking
computer users.

>  Should Xorg change this key sequence?  Please vote
> "yes" or "no".

No.

>  You can add comments too.  If you reply only to me by
> private mail, I will eventually summarize your reply to the list.
>

The key sequence is one that cannot be presses accidentally. There are
many easier ways to hurt oneself or lose data than this way. In fact,
I do not want to perform a quadruple bucky to reset my X server. The
Emacs users who have similar keyboard shortcuts can be assumed
competent enough for the sake of discussion to understand the
consequences of what they are doing. They are using Emacs, a program
that takes a non-minimal competency level to use.

-- 
Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü
___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[Martin Olsson]

Jason Spiro wrote:
> What do you think?  Should Xorg change this key sequence?  Please vote
> "yes" or "no".  You can add comments too.  If you reply only to me by
> private mail, I will eventually summarize your reply to the list.

Since I do testing on new drivers it would be inconvenient for me.
I still absolutely think that xorg should change or disable this
key binding by default.

When I started using Linux I wanted to try out compiz which uses
CTRL-ALT-MOUSE1 to spin the cube with the mouse. I tried all kinds
of key combinations to figure out how to rotate the cube with the
keyboard. At this point I accidently found ALT-CTRL-BACKSPACE and
I did loose data. For me personally, that wasn't so bad because I
did not loose any important data and to be honest I've come to like
this restart feature a lot. Many other users would not appreciate it
though (I think). Ubuntu already had a discussion on this actually
and I think they agreed that doing a confirmation UI in GTK would
have reverse dependencies (bad) and doing a non-GTK UI would be ugly,
so I think they settled on trying to make a delay required by default
(i.e. so that they user had to hold CRTL-ALT-BACKSPACE for a few
seconds before the machine zaps X).

I think making the keybinding configurable would make sense but
I also think it should be turned off or have a delay by default.



Martin
___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[Pat Kane]

  > I think that requiring two presses of Ctrl-Alt-Backspace in close
succession ...

FWIW that is close to the way SunRays (thin clients) work, except for
the close part.
___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[mcr]

> "Jason" == Jason Spiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Jason> It would work fine for me.  But it's not good enough for most
Jason> users, since most Xorg users don't know how to edit their
Jason> xorg.conf files. 

  The question was asked wrong.

  The question should not have been, "should we change ZAP key from
CTL+ALT+BS to something else", but rather:

or:
  "Why do distros that are worried about this problem not enable
  DontZap by default"

or:
  "Under what conditions do ordinary users need to have a magic kill
  key like CTRL+ALT+BS, and how should it operate?"

(I had to remove the Zap code from Xvnc4 right in the code, because
Xvnc4 doesn't have an xorg.conf that it reads... and we had this problem
where CTRL would sometimes stick, and the user would hit SHIFT-BS...)

-- 
Michael Richardson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Director -- Consumer Desktop Development, Simtone Corporation, Ottawa, Canada
Personal: http://www.sandelman.ca/mcr/ 

SIMtone Corporation fundamentally transforms computing into simple,
secure, and very low-cost network-provisioned services pervasively
accessible by everyone.  Learn more at www.simtone.net and www.SIMtoneVDU.com 


___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: How to implement alternate zap key idea (was: Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?)

[mcr]

> "Jason" == Jason Spiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Jason> As for the Ctrl+K+X idea (which I don't know is as safe;
Jason> 2. is it possible that 

In emacs:
C-x k runs `kill-buffer'

a common occurance.  
C-x C-k runs `edit-kbd-macro'

I've often wound up running the second one my mistake because I type
fast. I could easily see not pulling the finger off the X key fast
enough.

So, no key combination really works for everyone, so having a nice way
to change it would be great.  Or convince distros that DontZAP is the
way to go.

-- 
Michael Richardson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Director -- Consumer Desktop Development, Simtone Corporation, Ottawa, Canada
Personal: http://www.sandelman.ca/mcr/ 

SIMtone Corporation fundamentally transforms computing into simple,
secure, and very low-cost network-provisioned services pervasively
accessible by everyone.  Learn more at www.simtone.net and www.SIMtoneVDU.com 





___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[walter harms]

Beso schrieb:
> 2008/9/24 Glynn Clements <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> Ben Gamari (FOSS) wrote:
>>
>>> My completely unprofessional opinion is that Jason brings up a really
>>> good point here. Accidentally zapping Xorg can not only be extremely
>>> frustrating, but it could be extremely confusing for a new user. This
>>> being said, I also agree that any change that might be zapping
>>> unreliable or even unduly difficult is unacceptable.However, I do
>>> believe there is a better solution than what we have presently. Ctrl,
>>> Alt, and Backspace are usually three of the largest keys on most
>>> keyboards and I can personally attest to the ease of triggering on some
>>> keyboards (try typing on a laptop balanced on your knee).
>>>
>>> I think that requiring two presses of Ctrl-Alt-Backspace in close
>>> succession would be perfect, so long as a tightly looping Xorg would
>>> still register the event. Otherwise, perhaps adding Shift to the
>>> Ctrl-Alt-Backspace combination would be a reasonable course of action so
>>> long as it doesn't preclude any keyboards. If this too is not possible,
>>> perhaps making use of the Pause/Break key in replacement of the
>>> Backspace key would be workable.
>> Ctrl-Alt-Break would be an improvement. Apart from anything else, that
>> isn't bound to anytyhing in Emacs (which pre-dates X, BTW).
>>
>> For me, if X locks up to the extent that I can't quit the WM (and thus
>> the session) normally, it is normally locked up to the extent that
>> Ctrl-Alt-BS doesn't work either, and I need to resort to Alt-SysRq-K.
>> Unfortunately, that tends to leave the video card in a state where
>> consoles don't work, but I can at least use Ctrl-Alt-Del to trigger a
>> clean reboot.
>>
> 
> maybe could be interesting the adding of a function to remap the
> keyboards instead of mapping an alternative. in  this way people that
> continue to trigger it without really wanting to might change the key
> sequence. remapping it would mean that 99% of xorg users need to go
> and search for the new key sequence. so in my opinion the proposal is
> stupid and would only trigger a users stand up against it. you don't
> like it, then just assign another sequence (this should be the real
> proposal) if already this has not been implemented.
> 

i do not like the idea, people that use X11 are used to have crtl-alt-bs.
it is confusing not to have it. i do not see a real problem.

if xorg is confused to an extend that c-a-b does not work anymore it is clear
that the code may need some improvements.
An other idea would to allow additional key combinations  (mod+mouse) to behave 
like
c-a-b. looks like a nice config option.

re,
 wh



___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[Andrew Barr]

Beso  gmail.com> writes:

> maybe could be interesting the adding of a function to remap the
> keyboards instead of mapping an alternative.

You need to remember that when this function is used, the X server 
is in a bad state in some way, thus it is paramount that the code 
used is as simple as possible.



___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[Beso]

2008/9/24 Glynn Clements <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> Ben Gamari (FOSS) wrote:
>
>> My completely unprofessional opinion is that Jason brings up a really
>> good point here. Accidentally zapping Xorg can not only be extremely
>> frustrating, but it could be extremely confusing for a new user. This
>> being said, I also agree that any change that might be zapping
>> unreliable or even unduly difficult is unacceptable.However, I do
>> believe there is a better solution than what we have presently. Ctrl,
>> Alt, and Backspace are usually three of the largest keys on most
>> keyboards and I can personally attest to the ease of triggering on some
>> keyboards (try typing on a laptop balanced on your knee).
>>
>> I think that requiring two presses of Ctrl-Alt-Backspace in close
>> succession would be perfect, so long as a tightly looping Xorg would
>> still register the event. Otherwise, perhaps adding Shift to the
>> Ctrl-Alt-Backspace combination would be a reasonable course of action so
>> long as it doesn't preclude any keyboards. If this too is not possible,
>> perhaps making use of the Pause/Break key in replacement of the
>> Backspace key would be workable.
>
> Ctrl-Alt-Break would be an improvement. Apart from anything else, that
> isn't bound to anytyhing in Emacs (which pre-dates X, BTW).
>
> For me, if X locks up to the extent that I can't quit the WM (and thus
> the session) normally, it is normally locked up to the extent that
> Ctrl-Alt-BS doesn't work either, and I need to resort to Alt-SysRq-K.
> Unfortunately, that tends to leave the video card in a state where
> consoles don't work, but I can at least use Ctrl-Alt-Del to trigger a
> clean reboot.
>

maybe could be interesting the adding of a function to remap the
keyboards instead of mapping an alternative. in  this way people that
continue to trigger it without really wanting to might change the key
sequence. remapping it would mean that 99% of xorg users need to go
and search for the new key sequence. so in my opinion the proposal is
stupid and would only trigger a users stand up against it. you don't
like it, then just assign another sequence (this should be the real
proposal) if already this has not been implemented.

-- 
dott. ing. beso
___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[Glynn Clements]

Ben Gamari (FOSS) wrote:

> My completely unprofessional opinion is that Jason brings up a really
> good point here. Accidentally zapping Xorg can not only be extremely
> frustrating, but it could be extremely confusing for a new user. This
> being said, I also agree that any change that might be zapping
> unreliable or even unduly difficult is unacceptable.However, I do
> believe there is a better solution than what we have presently. Ctrl,
> Alt, and Backspace are usually three of the largest keys on most
> keyboards and I can personally attest to the ease of triggering on some
> keyboards (try typing on a laptop balanced on your knee).
> 
> I think that requiring two presses of Ctrl-Alt-Backspace in close
> succession would be perfect, so long as a tightly looping Xorg would
> still register the event. Otherwise, perhaps adding Shift to the
> Ctrl-Alt-Backspace combination would be a reasonable course of action so
> long as it doesn't preclude any keyboards. If this too is not possible,
> perhaps making use of the Pause/Break key in replacement of the
> Backspace key would be workable.

Ctrl-Alt-Break would be an improvement. Apart from anything else, that
isn't bound to anytyhing in Emacs (which pre-dates X, BTW).

For me, if X locks up to the extent that I can't quit the WM (and thus
the session) normally, it is normally locked up to the extent that
Ctrl-Alt-BS doesn't work either, and I need to resort to Alt-SysRq-K. 
Unfortunately, that tends to leave the video card in a state where
consoles don't work, but I can at least use Ctrl-Alt-Del to trigger a
clean reboot.

-- 
Glynn Clements <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[Jake Briggs]

I have never ever ever ever accidentally hit the zap key combo, and 
neither has anyone of the 5 linux users in my office! The closet I have 
come is playing doom 12 years ago, without a mouse, using ctrl for 
strafe, alt for fire and delete for change weapons


-- 
Jacob Briggs
Systems Engineer

Core Technology Limited
Level 1, NZX Centre
11 Cable Street
Wellington
Phone +64 4 801 2252

--

Private Object doAnythingConceivable(String whatToDo, Object whatToDoItWith) { 
.


___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[Ben Gamari (FOSS)]

My completely unprofessional opinion is that Jason brings up a really
good point here. Accidentally zapping Xorg can not only be extremely
frustrating, but it could be extremely confusing for a new user. This
being said, I also agree that any change that might be zapping
unreliable or even unduly difficult is unacceptable.However, I do
believe there is a better solution than what we have presently. Ctrl,
Alt, and Backspace are usually three of the largest keys on most
keyboards and I can personally attest to the ease of triggering on some
keyboards (try typing on a laptop balanced on your knee).

I think that requiring two presses of Ctrl-Alt-Backspace in close
succession would be perfect, so long as a tightly looping Xorg would
still register the event. Otherwise, perhaps adding Shift to the
Ctrl-Alt-Backspace combination would be a reasonable course of action so
long as it doesn't preclude any keyboards. If this too is not possible,
perhaps making use of the Pause/Break key in replacement of the
Backspace key would be workable.

Just my 2 cents. Cheers,

- Ben


Jason Spiro wrote:
> dan  entropy.homelinux.org> wrote:
>   
>> On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 11:33:49 +0530, CyberOrg 
>> opensuse.org> wrote:
>>
>> 
>>> Since openSUSE 11.0 users have to hit ctrl+alt+backspace twice quickly
>>> to kill X.
>>>   
>> The problem with this is that when I want to kill X, it's usually because
>> it's crashed, and I have enough trouble getting it to respond to *any*
>> keypresses. Considering the CPU is 100% busy with X, is it going to
>> register my multiple 'quick' Ctrl-Alt-Backspace keypresses?
>> 
>
> I don't know.  IMO a few people should each independently run an experiment to
> out how often zap_warning_xserver.diff prevents zapping when zapping would
> otherwise have been possible.  Then they should report back to us.  But what's
> the proper way to simulate an average situation that would make users want to
> zap?  And who volunteers to be one of the experimenters?
>
>   
>> Seriously, we need a way to kill X, and no matter what way that is, some
>> user will manage to 'accidentally' trigger it ( a million-monkeys-type
>> situation ). We've currently got a way to kill X, and I can't see how much
>> more obscure and difficult we can make it without requiring > 2 hands. I
>> don't see a case for changing things.
>> 
>
> The more difficult we make zapping, the smaller the number of people who'll
> accidentally zap.  The smaller the number of people who accidentally zap, the
> better.
>
> ___
> xorg mailing list
> xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
> http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
>
>   

___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[Jason Spiro]

dan  entropy.homelinux.org> wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 11:33:49 +0530, CyberOrg 
> opensuse.org> wrote:
> 
> > Since openSUSE 11.0 users have to hit ctrl+alt+backspace twice quickly
> > to kill X.
> 
> The problem with this is that when I want to kill X, it's usually because
> it's crashed, and I have enough trouble getting it to respond to *any*
> keypresses. Considering the CPU is 100% busy with X, is it going to
> register my multiple 'quick' Ctrl-Alt-Backspace keypresses?

I don't know.  IMO a few people should each independently run an experiment to
out how often zap_warning_xserver.diff prevents zapping when zapping would
otherwise have been possible.  Then they should report back to us.  But what's
the proper way to simulate an average situation that would make users want to
zap?  And who volunteers to be one of the experimenters?

> Seriously, we need a way to kill X, and no matter what way that is, some
> user will manage to 'accidentally' trigger it ( a million-monkeys-type
> situation ). We've currently got a way to kill X, and I can't see how much
> more obscure and difficult we can make it without requiring > 2 hands. I
> don't see a case for changing things.

The more difficult we make zapping, the smaller the number of people who'll
accidentally zap.  The smaller the number of people who accidentally zap, the
better.

___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[Clemens Eisserer]

no
___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[Igor Mozolevsky]

2008/9/23 Jason Spiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> In Linux, Ctrl-Alt-Del reboots unconditionally only in console mode.  Only
> expert users use console mode.  When X is running, on all my Linux machines,
> Ctrl-Alt-Del brings up a "shutdown-or-reboot?" dialog instead.  The vast
> majority of Linux users run X.

That's the desktop environment asking you that, not X. If you really
have to, provide a zap hook so that the desktop environment can catch
it.

--
Igor :-)
___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[Nicolas Mailhot]

Le Mar 23 septembre 2008 06:22, Peter Hutterer a écrit :
>
> On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 02:41:16AM +, Jason Spiro wrote:
>> Problem:  Many[1] users have killed X by accident.[2]
>>
>> Solution idea: Make it harder to kill X by accident.  E.g. you could
>> change the key sequence users must press.
>>* Maybe require Control+Alt+Backspace then Control-Alt-Y.[3]
>>* Or require Control+K+X pressed simultaneously.
>
> driver kbd: hardcodes Ctrl + Alt + Backspace. (IMHO that's a bug
> anyway)
> driver evdev: the XKB map decides what happens.
>
> In the latter case, all you have to do is change the xkb map.

ROTFL :p

-- 
Nicolas Mailhot

___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[Thomas Ilnseher]

My vote is a "No" (actually a Yo)

After having read this bug, I understand that ctrl+alt+backspace might
be a problem for emacs users. 

however, I'm using vim, and there is no such problem. And I don't want
to learn another combination just due to the emacs users. And then there
might be another application that uses the x-y-z-foo-bar key combo now
used to zap the x server.

I think the way to go is to have an optional config option "ZAP-combo"
that can overwrite the default ctrl+alt+backspace sequence. Then, any
emacs user can change it to what (s)he does like.

I did actually ZAP the X server "accidentally", but that in that case,
"accidentally" means I wanted to zap it, and after wards, figured out it
actually was a bad idea ... changing the key-combo won't help there.

just my € 0.02

Tom



Am Dienstag, den 23.09.2008, 02:41 + schrieb Jason Spiro:
> Problem:  Many[1] users have killed X by accident.[2]
> 
> Solution idea: Make it harder to kill X by accident.  E.g. you could
> change the key sequence users must press.
>* Maybe require Control+Alt+Backspace then Control-Alt-Y.[3]
>* Or require Control+K+X pressed simultaneously.
> 
> What do you think?  Should Xorg change this key sequence?  Please vote
> "yes" or "no".  You can add comments too.  If you reply only to me by
> private mail, I will eventually summarize your reply to the list.
> 
> Regards,
> -Jason
> 
> ^ [1].  See http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10510 then
> scroll down to the "== Example evidence ==" section.  Or see
> http://www.google.com/search?q=accidentally+hit+%7C+press+%7C+hitting+%7C+pressing+control+%7C+ctrl+alt+backspace+x%7Cxorg
> 
> ^ [2].  I filed a bug about this last year but it's still untriaged.
> So now I'm asking here.  It's bug 10510 (Xorg should use a more
> unlikely key combination than Control-Alt-Backspace as the server zap
> key): http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10510
> 
> ^ [3].  After Control+Alt+Backspace, the PC speaker would beep once,
> the keyboard LEDs would blink a few times, and X
> would attempt to show a warning dialog.  Thanks to Elisée Maurer at
> http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10510#c1 for the
> warning-dialog idea.
> 
> ___
> xorg mailing list
> xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
> http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
-- 
Thomas Ilnseher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[Timo Aaltonen]

On Tue, 23 Sep 2008, Michel Dänzer wrote:

> On Tue, 2008-09-23 at 03:20 +, Jason Spiro wrote:
>> Tiago Vignatti  c3sl.ufpr.br> wrote:
>>>
>>> The "DontZap" option in xorg.conf isn't enough for you? `man 5 xorg.conf`
>>
>> It would work fine for me.  But it's not good enough for most users, since 
>> most
>> Xorg users don't know how to edit their xorg.conf files.
>>
>> You could argue that distros could disable zapping.  But I know that Debian 
>> and
>> Ubuntu both leave zapping enabled, because it's occasionally necessary.
>
> There was recently discussion about replacing ctrl-alt-backspace with
> something more complicated in Ubuntu's X (I saw it on the debian-x
> list). I suggested to just enable DontZap by default; power users who
> need to zap should be able to figure out how to enable it. I don't know
> what came out of that discussion though.

Still undecided. Maybe will happen for the next development cycle.


t
___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[Michel Dänzer]

On Tue, 2008-09-23 at 03:20 +, Jason Spiro wrote:
> Tiago Vignatti  c3sl.ufpr.br> wrote:
> >
> > The "DontZap" option in xorg.conf isn't enough for you? `man 5 xorg.conf`
> 
> It would work fine for me.  But it's not good enough for most users, since 
> most
> Xorg users don't know how to edit their xorg.conf files.
> 
> You could argue that distros could disable zapping.  But I know that Debian 
> and
> Ubuntu both leave zapping enabled, because it's occasionally necessary.

There was recently discussion about replacing ctrl-alt-backspace with
something more complicated in Ubuntu's X (I saw it on the debian-x
list). I suggested to just enable DontZap by default; power users who
need to zap should be able to figure out how to enable it. I don't know
what came out of that discussion though.


-- 
Earthling Michel Dänzer   |  http://tungstengraphics.com
Libre software enthusiast |  Debian, X and DRI developer

___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[Matthieu Herrb]

Jason Spiro wrote:
> Problem:  Many[1] users have killed X by accident.[2]
> 
> Solution idea: Make it harder to kill X by accident.  E.g. you could
> change the key sequence users must press.
>* Maybe require Control+Alt+Backspace then Control-Alt-Y.[3]
>* Or require Control+K+X pressed simultaneously.
> 
> What do you think?  Should Xorg change this key sequence?  Please vote
> "yes" or "no".  You can add comments too.  If you reply only to me by
> private mail, I will eventually summarize your reply to the list.
> 

No

Please stop changing X default behaviour to match indiviual developpers 
tastes.
There are enough options to confgure it to your taste.
X is a standard and most users expect the standard behaviour.
-- 
Matthieu Herrb
___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[CyberOrg]

On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 10:34 AM, Russell Whitaker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, 23 Sep 2008, Jason Spiro wrote:
>
>>
> Problem:  Many[1] users have killed X by accident.[2]
>
> Solution idea: Make it harder to kill X by accident.  E.g. you could
> change the key sequence users must press.
>* Maybe require Control+Alt+Backspace then Control-Alt-Y.[3]
>* Or require Control+K+X pressed simultaneously.
>
> What do you think?  Should Xorg change this key sequence?  Please vote
> "yes" or "no".  You can add comments too.  If you reply only to me by
> private mail, I will eventually summarize your reply to the list.
>
Since openSUSE 11.0 users have to hit ctrl+alt+backspace twice quickly
to kill X.
___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[Russell Whitaker]

On Tue, 23 Sep 2008, Jason Spiro wrote:

> 
Problem:  Many[1] users have killed X by accident.[2]

Solution idea: Make it harder to kill X by accident.  E.g. you could
change the key sequence users must press.
* Maybe require Control+Alt+Backspace then Control-Alt-Y.[3]
* Or require Control+K+X pressed simultaneously.

What do you think?  Should Xorg change this key sequence?  Please vote
"yes" or "no".  You can add comments too.  If you reply only to me by
private mail, I will eventually summarize your reply to the list.

Regards,
-Jason

No. It's a solution looking for a problem.
   Russ
___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: How to implement alternate zap key idea (was: Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to?something harder for users to press by accident?)

[Peter Hutterer]

On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 04:39:49AM +, Jason Spiro wrote:
> Thanks for the info.  1. So I guess when using evdev, a way to implement my
> Ctrl+Alt+Bksp then Ctrl+Alt+Y idea would be this?:  Ctrl+Alt+Bksp should latch
> some new modifier called ctrl_alt_bksp_was_pressed, and Ctrl+Alt+Y should zap 
> X
> only when that modifier is latched.  Would that work?

maybe. You'd need to look at XKB's compat capabilities there.

Anyway - that's taking the hard way out. 
your claim was that CAB is too easy to hit. So disable it - it could be easily
done at runtime through xkb options. Or put it on ctrl-alt-shift-F12 or
something.

Alternatively, have a client listen to CAB, load the normal xkb behaviour, pop
up a dialog "if you want to kill the server, hit CAB now". (this is just idle
thinking)

> As for the Ctrl+K+X idea (which I don't know is as safe; 

AFAIK, XKB will only handle combinations with modifiers. sequential key combos
must be done in a client.

> 2. is it possible that a heavy pet sitting on the keyboard and depressing all 
> keys at once could cause
> X to think Ctrl+K+X was pressed?), 

yes. and those users with a pet octopus better choose a 9-key combo. Ha, 
serves them octopodiformes right for having 2 fingers less than us!

There is a thing such as cost/effort. stop your pet sitting on the keyboard,
or disable zap.

> 3. are kbd and evdev each able to detect such a key combination? 

both are designed to handle key events - yes.

> 4. Are the majority of PS/2 and USB keyboards able to transmit such three-key 
> combos reliably?  

they are designed to handle keyboard entry - yes.

> 5. Do most users know how to press multi-letter key combinations?

Depends on your definition of "most" and of "users". I know a fair few that
would go looking for a post box when you start talking about multi-letter
combinations.

Cheers,
  Peter
___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

How to implement alternate zap key idea (was: Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?)

[Jason Spiro]

Peter Hutterer  who-t.net> wrote:
> 
> driver kbd: hardcodes Ctrl + Alt + Backspace. (IMHO that's a bug anyway)
> driver evdev: the XKB map decides what happens.
> 
> In the latter case, all you have to do is change the xkb map. If you can
> convice svu to add it to xkeyboard-config, you only need to supply the right
> option and you're done with it.

Thanks for the info.  1. So I guess when using evdev, a way to implement my
Ctrl+Alt+Bksp then Ctrl+Alt+Y idea would be this?:  Ctrl+Alt+Bksp should latch
some new modifier called ctrl_alt_bksp_was_pressed, and Ctrl+Alt+Y should zap X
only when that modifier is latched.  Would that work?

As for the Ctrl+K+X idea (which I don't know is as safe; 2. is it possible that
a heavy pet sitting on the keyboard and depressing all keys at once could cause
X to think Ctrl+K+X was pressed?), 3. are kbd and evdev each able to detect such
a key combination?  4. Are the majority of PS/2 and USB keyboards able to
transmit such three-key combos reliably?  5. Do most users know how to press
multi-letter key combinations?

> I'm not quite sure what the poll will achieve here.

I was hoping it could provide extra backing for my assertion that
Control-Alt-Backspace is a bad choice of key combination.  In fact, it hasn't. 
Plus, due to the psychological effect called "groupthink", people who would have
said "yes" are now less likely to admit it to the entire list, since IIRC three
have already said "no" and only one (me) has said "yes".  :(

___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[Peter Hutterer]

On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 02:41:16AM +, Jason Spiro wrote:
> Problem:  Many[1] users have killed X by accident.[2]
> 
> Solution idea: Make it harder to kill X by accident.  E.g. you could
> change the key sequence users must press.
>* Maybe require Control+Alt+Backspace then Control-Alt-Y.[3]
>* Or require Control+K+X pressed simultaneously.

driver kbd: hardcodes Ctrl + Alt + Backspace. (IMHO that's a bug anyway)
driver evdev: the XKB map decides what happens.

In the latter case, all you have to do is change the xkb map. If you can
convice svu to add it to xkeyboard-config, you only need to supply the right
option and you're done with it.

I'm not quite sure what the poll will achieve here.

Cheers,
  Peter
___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[Corbin Simpson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Jason Spiro wrote:
> Corbin Simpson  gmail.com> writes:
> ...
>> Seriously, no.
> 
> Your vote has been duly noted.
> 
>> Zap once, learn forever. No different than anything else,
>> really;
> 
> I still believe that Xorg should make it harder to make the mistake of an
> accidental zap.
> 
>> ever heard of "press Alt+F4 to make it go faster?"
> 
> Yes.  Note, though, that Firefox now displays a confirmation dialog when you 
> try
> to quit when there are multiple tabs open.  That featureis a good protection
> against the "press Alt+F4 to make it go faster" jokesters.

AIM, StarCraft, Dreamweaver... those were the things of my youth, and
they all died when Alt+F4 was pressed. Consequently, I got *very* good
at not casually pressing those two buttons together except when I really
meant to do it.

That's all. Need sleeps now.

~ C.

- --
~ Corbin Simpson
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEARECAAYFAkjYaeoACgkQeCCY8PC5utBKwgCfXOhawfMNm2gW0sq5Q9fndk7j
olIAnjp9idMQETU0cSTUuoaRFr1pNn0N
=fSQQ
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[Jason Spiro]

Corbin Simpson  gmail.com> writes:
...
> Seriously, no.

Your vote has been duly noted.

> Zap once, learn forever. No different than anything else,
> really;

I still believe that Xorg should make it harder to make the mistake of an
accidental zap.

> ever heard of "press Alt+F4 to make it go faster?"

Yes.  Note, though, that Firefox now displays a confirmation dialog when you try
to quit when there are multiple tabs open.  That featureis a good protection
against the "press Alt+F4 to make it go faster" jokesters.


___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[Jason Spiro]

Igor Mozolevsky  hybrid-lab.co.uk> wrote:
...

> Unfortunately, there's no cure for human
> stupidity 

There's no cure, but there are workarounds.

> Doesn't CTRL+ALT+DELETE reboot the machine unconditionally?

Not usually.  It used to reboot unconditionally way back.  But, fifteen years
ago, when Windows 3.1 came out[1], Microsoft changed things so that Windows
users must press it twice to reboot.  I suspect they did so to make it harder to
lose data by accident.

In Linux, Ctrl-Alt-Del reboots unconditionally only in console mode.  Only
expert users use console mode.  When X is running, on all my Linux machines,
Ctrl-Alt-Del brings up a "shutdown-or-reboot?" dialog instead.  The vast
majority of Linux users run X.

^ [1].  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control-Alt-Delete ; full disclosure: the
Control-Alt-Delete detection feature required a 386 computer to work.

___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[Igor Mozolevsky]

2008/9/23 Jason Spiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Igor Mozolevsky  hybrid-lab.co.uk> writes:
>
>> just because users
>> incompetently press the combination, doesn't mean it's a bad one.
>
> I respectfully disagree.  Accidental zaps often cause data loss.  Data loss is
> always unacceptable and Xorg should do whatever it takes to prevent it.

Pushing the reset button or pulling the cable from the wall also
causes data loss, but you don't see flip covers protecting the reset
buttons nor are the power cables welded into the wall at one end and
the unit at the other. Unfortunately, there's no cure for human
stupidity ;-)

Doesn't CTRL+ALT+DELETE reboot the machine unconditionally?

--
Igor
___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[Tiago Vignatti]

Jason Spiro escreveu:
> Tiago Vignatti  c3sl.ufpr.br> wrote:
>> The "DontZap" option in xorg.conf isn't enough for you? `man 5 xorg.conf`
> 
> It would work fine for me.  But it's not good enough for most users, since 
> most
> Xorg users don't know how to edit their xorg.conf files.
> 
> You could argue that distros could disable zapping.  But I know that Debian 
> and
> Ubuntu both leave zapping enabled, because it's occasionally necessary.

Humm, okay. So then my vote of your poll is 'no'.

-- 
Tiago Vignatti
C3SL - Centro de Computação Científica e Software Livre
www.c3sl.ufpr.br
___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[Corbin Simpson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Jason Spiro wrote:
> Problem:  Many[1] users have killed X by accident.[2]
> 
> Solution idea: Make it harder to kill X by accident.  E.g. you could
> change the key sequence users must press.
>* Maybe require Control+Alt+Backspace then Control-Alt-Y.[3]
>* Or require Control+K+X pressed simultaneously.
> 
> What do you think?  Should Xorg change this key sequence?  Please vote
> "yes" or "no".  You can add comments too.  If you reply only to me by
> private mail, I will eventually summarize your reply to the list.

Seems like it's a problem with emacs. Sure glad I use vi. :3

Seriously, no. Zap once, learn forever. No different than anything else,
really; ever heard of "press Alt+F4 to make it go faster?"

~ C.

- --
~ Corbin Simpson
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEARECAAYFAkjYYdMACgkQeCCY8PC5utCneQCeObXX+/9MERbrN3xo41h40Niq
u8UAn2Y3U2VWSwV4irduJp1UMm1t31fn
=OZ96
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[Jason Spiro]

Tiago Vignatti  c3sl.ufpr.br> wrote:
>
> The "DontZap" option in xorg.conf isn't enough for you? `man 5 xorg.conf`

It would work fine for me.  But it's not good enough for most users, since most
Xorg users don't know how to edit their xorg.conf files.

You could argue that distros could disable zapping.  But I know that Debian and
Ubuntu both leave zapping enabled, because it's occasionally necessary.

___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[Tiago Vignatti]

Jason Spiro escreveu:
> Problem:  Many[1] users have killed X by accident.[2]
> 
> Solution idea: Make it harder to kill X by accident.  E.g. you could
> change the key sequence users must press.
>* Maybe require Control+Alt+Backspace then Control-Alt-Y.[3]
>* Or require Control+K+X pressed simultaneously.

The "DontZap" option in xorg.conf isn't enough for you? `man 5 xorg.conf`

Cheers,

-- 
Tiago Vignatti
C3SL - Centro de Computação Científica e Software Livre
www.c3sl.ufpr.br
___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[Jason Spiro]

Igor Mozolevsky  hybrid-lab.co.uk> writes:

> CTRL+ALT+BACKSPACE is just the way to do it

OK.  That's one "no" vote, duly noted.  Thank you for your vote.

I will now respond to the rest of your comments.

> just because users
> incompetently press the combination, doesn't mean it's a bad one.

I respectfully disagree.  Accidental zaps often cause data loss.  Data loss is
always unacceptable and Xorg should do whatever it takes to prevent it.

> Besides, pressing that combo requires some effort, I really can't see
> how one could do it "accidentally"!

Please see http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10510 then
scroll down to the "== Example evidence ==" section.  Or see
http://www.google.com/search?q=accidentally+hit+%7C+press+%7C+hitting+%7C+pressing+control+%7C+ctrl+alt+backspace+x%7Cxorg

___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[Igor Mozolevsky]

2008/9/23 Jason Spiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> Problem:  Many[1] users have killed X by accident.[2]
>
> Solution idea: Make it harder to kill X by accident.  E.g. you could
> change the key sequence users must press.
>   * Maybe require Control+Alt+Backspace then Control-Alt-Y.[3]
>   * Or require Control+K+X pressed simultaneously.
>
> What do you think?  Should Xorg change this key sequence?  Please vote
> "yes" or "no".  You can add comments too.

CTRL+ALT+BACKSPACE is just the way to do it, just because users
incompetently press the combination, doesn't mean it's a bad one,
besides, pressing that combo requires some effort, I really can't see
how one could do it "accidentally"!

--
Igor
___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg

Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?

[Jason Spiro]

Problem:  Many[1] users have killed X by accident.[2]

Solution idea: Make it harder to kill X by accident.  E.g. you could
change the key sequence users must press.
   * Maybe require Control+Alt+Backspace then Control-Alt-Y.[3]
   * Or require Control+K+X pressed simultaneously.

What do you think?  Should Xorg change this key sequence?  Please vote
"yes" or "no".  You can add comments too.  If you reply only to me by
private mail, I will eventually summarize your reply to the list.

Regards,
-Jason

^ [1].  See http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10510 then
scroll down to the "== Example evidence ==" section.  Or see
http://www.google.com/search?q=accidentally+hit+%7C+press+%7C+hitting+%7C+pressing+control+%7C+ctrl+alt+backspace+x%7Cxorg

^ [2].  I filed a bug about this last year but it's still untriaged.
So now I'm asking here.  It's bug 10510 (Xorg should use a more
unlikely key combination than Control-Alt-Backspace as the server zap
key): http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10510

^ [3].  After Control+Alt+Backspace, the PC speaker would beep once,
the keyboard LEDs would blink a few times, and X
would attempt to show a warning dialog.  Thanks to Elisée Maurer at
http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10510#c1 for the
warning-dialog idea.

___
xorg mailing list
xorg@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg