Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?
On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 01:59:15PM -0400, Jan Engelhardt wrote: I know very well that CAB is the kill switch, but it just occurred to me that it triggered by accident nevertheless. I was editing around in a graphical editor, where word-based movement is done with Ctrl. Certain commands require Shift and Alt to be held down too, and removing words is done traditionally with Backspace. Don't ask how exactly, but in this twirl it _just happened_ that I triggered CAB by accident. The only thing I could do at the moment is silently curse my employer for not using openSUSE. I do save very often, but still, I had to reload all the programs like xterms, xmms, and so on. Simple conclusion, I want this patch in Xorg. http://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/commit/?id=9d135ac10a7374c7ccda705f1eeb02cc53076c34 signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?
Hi, On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 01:52:53PM +0930, Peter Hutterer wrote: driver kbd: hardcodes Ctrl + Alt + Backspace. (IMHO that's a bug anyway) driver evdev: the XKB map decides what happens. I don't know whether this is really related (I'm pretty sure I experienced that with kbd driver as well), but the fact that zap depends on xkb is actually quite problematic: When the xkb map is somehow borked, the server still starts, but it's not possible to zap (nor to switch console)... This gets really ugly when no other means to exit the server is available :-) -antrik- ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?
On Fri, 3 Oct 2008 20:19:43 +0200 Harald Braumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When zapping X is made impossible, users will find out about ctrl-prnt-b by accident. Sorry, I mean alt-prnt-b. signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?
Jason Spiro wrote: What do you think? Should Xorg change this key sequence? Please vote yes or no. You can add comments too. If you reply only to me by private mail, I will eventually summarize your reply to the list. Since I do testing on new drivers it would be inconvenient for me. I still absolutely think that xorg should change or disable this key binding by default. When I started using Linux I wanted to try out compiz which uses CTRL-ALT-MOUSE1 to spin the cube with the mouse. I tried all kinds of key combinations to figure out how to rotate the cube with the keyboard. At this point I accidently found ALT-CTRL-BACKSPACE and I did loose data. For me personally, that wasn't so bad because I did not loose any important data and to be honest I've come to like this restart feature a lot. Many other users would not appreciate it though (I think). Ubuntu already had a discussion on this actually and I think they agreed that doing a confirmation UI in GTK would have reverse dependencies (bad) and doing a non-GTK UI would be ugly, so I think they settled on trying to make a delay required by default (i.e. so that they user had to hold CRTL-ALT-BACKSPACE for a few seconds before the machine zaps X). I think making the keybinding configurable would make sense but I also think it should be turned off or have a delay by default. Martin ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?
2008/9/23 Jason Spiro [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Problem: Many[1] users have killed X by accident.[2] Solution idea: Make it harder to kill X by accident. E.g. you could change the key sequence users must press. * Maybe require Control+Alt+Backspace then Control-Alt-Y.[3] * Or require Control+K+X pressed simultaneously. What do you think? Here is the problem. You are asking users who think (and subscribe to computer-related mailing lists) to make a decision for non-thinking computer users. Should Xorg change this key sequence? Please vote yes or no. No. You can add comments too. If you reply only to me by private mail, I will eventually summarize your reply to the list. The key sequence is one that cannot be presses accidentally. There are many easier ways to hurt oneself or lose data than this way. In fact, I do not want to perform a quadruple bucky to reset my X server. The Emacs users who have similar keyboard shortcuts can be assumed competent enough for the sake of discussion to understand the consequences of what they are doing. They are using Emacs, a program that takes a non-minimal competency level to use. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?
Ben Gamari (FOSS) wrote: My completely unprofessional opinion is that Jason brings up a really good point here. Accidentally zapping Xorg can not only be extremely frustrating, but it could be extremely confusing for a new user. This being said, I also agree that any change that might be zapping unreliable or even unduly difficult is unacceptable.However, I do believe there is a better solution than what we have presently. Ctrl, Alt, and Backspace are usually three of the largest keys on most keyboards and I can personally attest to the ease of triggering on some keyboards (try typing on a laptop balanced on your knee). I think that requiring two presses of Ctrl-Alt-Backspace in close succession would be perfect, so long as a tightly looping Xorg would still register the event. Otherwise, perhaps adding Shift to the Ctrl-Alt-Backspace combination would be a reasonable course of action so long as it doesn't preclude any keyboards. If this too is not possible, perhaps making use of the Pause/Break key in replacement of the Backspace key would be workable. Ctrl-Alt-Break would be an improvement. Apart from anything else, that isn't bound to anytyhing in Emacs (which pre-dates X, BTW). For me, if X locks up to the extent that I can't quit the WM (and thus the session) normally, it is normally locked up to the extent that Ctrl-Alt-BS doesn't work either, and I need to resort to Alt-SysRq-K. Unfortunately, that tends to leave the video card in a state where consoles don't work, but I can at least use Ctrl-Alt-Del to trigger a clean reboot. -- Glynn Clements [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?
Jason Spiro wrote: Problem: Many[1] users have killed X by accident.[2] Solution idea: Make it harder to kill X by accident. E.g. you could change the key sequence users must press. * Maybe require Control+Alt+Backspace then Control-Alt-Y.[3] * Or require Control+K+X pressed simultaneously. What do you think? Should Xorg change this key sequence? Please vote yes or no. You can add comments too. If you reply only to me by private mail, I will eventually summarize your reply to the list. No Please stop changing X default behaviour to match indiviual developpers tastes. There are enough options to confgure it to your taste. X is a standard and most users expect the standard behaviour. -- Matthieu Herrb ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?
On Tue, 2008-09-23 at 03:20 +, Jason Spiro wrote: Tiago Vignatti vignatti at c3sl.ufpr.br wrote: The DontZap option in xorg.conf isn't enough for you? `man 5 xorg.conf` It would work fine for me. But it's not good enough for most users, since most Xorg users don't know how to edit their xorg.conf files. You could argue that distros could disable zapping. But I know that Debian and Ubuntu both leave zapping enabled, because it's occasionally necessary. There was recently discussion about replacing ctrl-alt-backspace with something more complicated in Ubuntu's X (I saw it on the debian-x list). I suggested to just enable DontZap by default; power users who need to zap should be able to figure out how to enable it. I don't know what came out of that discussion though. -- Earthling Michel Dänzer | http://tungstengraphics.com Libre software enthusiast | Debian, X and DRI developer ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?
2008/9/23 Jason Spiro [EMAIL PROTECTED]: In Linux, Ctrl-Alt-Del reboots unconditionally only in console mode. Only expert users use console mode. When X is running, on all my Linux machines, Ctrl-Alt-Del brings up a shutdown-or-reboot? dialog instead. The vast majority of Linux users run X. That's the desktop environment asking you that, not X. If you really have to, provide a zap hook so that the desktop environment can catch it. -- Igor :-) ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?
no ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?
I have never ever ever ever accidentally hit the zap key combo, and
neither has anyone of the 5 linux users in my office! The closet I have
come is playing doom 12 years ago, without a mouse, using ctrl for
strafe, alt for fire and delete for change weapons
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Level 1, NZX Centre
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Phone +64 4 801 2252
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Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?
Problem: Many[1] users have killed X by accident.[2] Solution idea: Make it harder to kill X by accident. E.g. you could change the key sequence users must press. * Maybe require Control+Alt+Backspace then Control-Alt-Y.[3] * Or require Control+K+X pressed simultaneously. What do you think? Should Xorg change this key sequence? Please vote yes or no. You can add comments too. If you reply only to me by private mail, I will eventually summarize your reply to the list. Regards, -Jason ^ [1]. See http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10510 then scroll down to the == Example evidence == section. Or see http://www.google.com/search?q=accidentally+hit+%7C+press+%7C+hitting+%7C+pressing+control+%7C+ctrl+alt+backspace+x%7Cxorg ^ [2]. I filed a bug about this last year but it's still untriaged. So now I'm asking here. It's bug 10510 (Xorg should use a more unlikely key combination than Control-Alt-Backspace as the server zap key): http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10510 ^ [3]. After Control+Alt+Backspace, the PC speaker would beep once, the keyboard LEDs would blink a few times, and X would attempt to show a warning dialog. Thanks to Elisée Maurer at http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10510#c1 for the warning-dialog idea. ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?
Igor Mozolevsky igor at hybrid-lab.co.uk writes: CTRL+ALT+BACKSPACE is just the way to do it OK. That's one no vote, duly noted. Thank you for your vote. I will now respond to the rest of your comments. just because users incompetently press the combination, doesn't mean it's a bad one. I respectfully disagree. Accidental zaps often cause data loss. Data loss is always unacceptable and Xorg should do whatever it takes to prevent it. Besides, pressing that combo requires some effort, I really can't see how one could do it accidentally! Please see http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10510 then scroll down to the == Example evidence == section. Or see http://www.google.com/search?q=accidentally+hit+%7C+press+%7C+hitting+%7C+pressing+control+%7C+ctrl+alt+backspace+x%7Cxorg ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?
Jason Spiro escreveu: Problem: Many[1] users have killed X by accident.[2] Solution idea: Make it harder to kill X by accident. E.g. you could change the key sequence users must press. * Maybe require Control+Alt+Backspace then Control-Alt-Y.[3] * Or require Control+K+X pressed simultaneously. The DontZap option in xorg.conf isn't enough for you? `man 5 xorg.conf` Cheers, -- Tiago Vignatti C3SL - Centro de Computação Científica e Software Livre www.c3sl.ufpr.br ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jason Spiro wrote: Problem: Many[1] users have killed X by accident.[2] Solution idea: Make it harder to kill X by accident. E.g. you could change the key sequence users must press. * Maybe require Control+Alt+Backspace then Control-Alt-Y.[3] * Or require Control+K+X pressed simultaneously. What do you think? Should Xorg change this key sequence? Please vote yes or no. You can add comments too. If you reply only to me by private mail, I will eventually summarize your reply to the list. Seems like it's a problem with emacs. Sure glad I use vi. :3 Seriously, no. Zap once, learn forever. No different than anything else, really; ever heard of press Alt+F4 to make it go faster? ~ C. - -- ~ Corbin Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkjYYdMACgkQeCCY8PC5utCneQCeObXX+/9MERbrN3xo41h40Niq u8UAn2Y3U2VWSwV4irduJp1UMm1t31fn =OZ96 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?
2008/9/23 Jason Spiro [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Igor Mozolevsky igor at hybrid-lab.co.uk writes: just because users incompetently press the combination, doesn't mean it's a bad one. I respectfully disagree. Accidental zaps often cause data loss. Data loss is always unacceptable and Xorg should do whatever it takes to prevent it. Pushing the reset button or pulling the cable from the wall also causes data loss, but you don't see flip covers protecting the reset buttons nor are the power cables welded into the wall at one end and the unit at the other. Unfortunately, there's no cure for human stupidity ;-) Doesn't CTRL+ALT+DELETE reboot the machine unconditionally? -- Igor ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?
Igor Mozolevsky igor at hybrid-lab.co.uk wrote: ... Unfortunately, there's no cure for human stupidity There's no cure, but there are workarounds. Doesn't CTRL+ALT+DELETE reboot the machine unconditionally? Not usually. It used to reboot unconditionally way back. But, fifteen years ago, when Windows 3.1 came out[1], Microsoft changed things so that Windows users must press it twice to reboot. I suspect they did so to make it harder to lose data by accident. In Linux, Ctrl-Alt-Del reboots unconditionally only in console mode. Only expert users use console mode. When X is running, on all my Linux machines, Ctrl-Alt-Del brings up a shutdown-or-reboot? dialog instead. The vast majority of Linux users run X. ^ [1]. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control-Alt-Delete ; full disclosure: the Control-Alt-Delete detection feature required a 386 computer to work. ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?
Corbin Simpson mostawesomedude at gmail.com writes: ... Seriously, no. Your vote has been duly noted. Zap once, learn forever. No different than anything else, really; I still believe that Xorg should make it harder to make the mistake of an accidental zap. ever heard of press Alt+F4 to make it go faster? Yes. Note, though, that Firefox now displays a confirmation dialog when you try to quit when there are multiple tabs open. That featureis a good protection against the press Alt+F4 to make it go faster jokesters. ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jason Spiro wrote: Corbin Simpson mostawesomedude at gmail.com writes: ... Seriously, no. Your vote has been duly noted. Zap once, learn forever. No different than anything else, really; I still believe that Xorg should make it harder to make the mistake of an accidental zap. ever heard of press Alt+F4 to make it go faster? Yes. Note, though, that Firefox now displays a confirmation dialog when you try to quit when there are multiple tabs open. That featureis a good protection against the press Alt+F4 to make it go faster jokesters. AIM, StarCraft, Dreamweaver... those were the things of my youth, and they all died when Alt+F4 was pressed. Consequently, I got *very* good at not casually pressing those two buttons together except when I really meant to do it. That's all. Need sleeps now. ~ C. - -- ~ Corbin Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkjYaeoACgkQeCCY8PC5utBKwgCfXOhawfMNm2gW0sq5Q9fndk7j olIAnjp9idMQETU0cSTUuoaRFr1pNn0N =fSQQ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to something harder for users to press by accident?
On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 02:41:16AM +, Jason Spiro wrote: Problem: Many[1] users have killed X by accident.[2] Solution idea: Make it harder to kill X by accident. E.g. you could change the key sequence users must press. * Maybe require Control+Alt+Backspace then Control-Alt-Y.[3] * Or require Control+K+X pressed simultaneously. driver kbd: hardcodes Ctrl + Alt + Backspace. (IMHO that's a bug anyway) driver evdev: the XKB map decides what happens. In the latter case, all you have to do is change the xkb map. If you can convice svu to add it to xkeyboard-config, you only need to supply the right option and you're done with it. I'm not quite sure what the poll will achieve here. Cheers, Peter ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: How to implement alternate zap key idea (was: Re: Poll: Should Xorg change from using Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to?something harder for users to press by accident?)
On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 04:39:49AM +, Jason Spiro wrote: Thanks for the info. 1. So I guess when using evdev, a way to implement my Ctrl+Alt+Bksp then Ctrl+Alt+Y idea would be this?: Ctrl+Alt+Bksp should latch some new modifier called ctrl_alt_bksp_was_pressed, and Ctrl+Alt+Y should zap X only when that modifier is latched. Would that work? maybe. You'd need to look at XKB's compat capabilities there. Anyway - that's taking the hard way out. your claim was that CAB is too easy to hit. So disable it - it could be easily done at runtime through xkb options. Or put it on ctrl-alt-shift-F12 or something. Alternatively, have a client listen to CAB, load the normal xkb behaviour, pop up a dialog if you want to kill the server, hit CAB now. (this is just idle thinking) As for the Ctrl+K+X idea (which I don't know is as safe; AFAIK, XKB will only handle combinations with modifiers. sequential key combos must be done in a client. 2. is it possible that a heavy pet sitting on the keyboard and depressing all keys at once could cause X to think Ctrl+K+X was pressed?), yes. and those users with a pet octopus better choose a 9-key combo. Ha, serves them octopodiformes right for having 2 fingers less than us! There is a thing such as cost/effort. stop your pet sitting on the keyboard, or disable zap. 3. are kbd and evdev each able to detect such a key combination? both are designed to handle key events - yes. 4. Are the majority of PS/2 and USB keyboards able to transmit such three-key combos reliably? they are designed to handle keyboard entry - yes. 5. Do most users know how to press multi-letter key combinations? Depends on your definition of most and of users. I know a fair few that would go looking for a post box when you start talking about multi-letter combinations. Cheers, Peter ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
