Re: [zfs-discuss] system unresponsive after issuing a zpool attach

2006-08-17 Thread George Wilson

I believe this is what you're hitting:

6456888 zpool attach leads to memory exhaustion and system hang

We are currently looking at fixing this so stay tuned.

Thanks,
George

Daniel Rock wrote:

Joseph Mocker schrieb:
Today I attempted to upgrade to S10_U2 and migrate some mirrored UFS 
SVM partitions to ZFS.


I used Live Upgrade to migrate from U1 to U2 and that went without a 
hitch on my SunBlade 2000. And the initial conversion of one side of 
the UFS mirrors to a ZFS pool and subsequent data migration went fine. 
However, when I attempted to attach the second side mirrors as a 
mirror of the ZFS pool, all hell broke loose.

 

9. attach the partition to the pool as a mirror
  zpool attach storage cXtXdXs4 cYtYdYs4

A few minutes after issuing the command the system became unresponsive 
as described above.


Same here. I also did upgrade to S10_U2, and converted my non-root md
similar like you. Everything went fine until the zpool attach. The system
seemed to be hanging for at least 2-3 minutes. Then I could type something
again. top then showed 98% system time.

This was on a SunBlade 1000 with 2 x 750MHz CPUs. The zpool/zfs was 
created with checksum=sha256.




Daniel
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Re[2]: [zfs-discuss] zpool import - cannot mount [...] directory is not empty

2006-08-17 Thread Robert Milkowski
Hello Eric,

Wednesday, August 16, 2006, 4:48:46 PM, you wrote:

ES What does 'zfs list -o name,mountpoint' and 'zfs mount' show after the
ES import?  My only guess is that you have some explicit mountpoint set
ES that's confusing the DSl-orderered mounting code.  If this is the case,
ES this was fixed in build 46 (likely to be in S10u4) to always mount
ES datasets in mountpoint order, regardless of their hierarchical
ES relationship.  However, you may be hitting some other bug that we
ES haven't seen before.

bash-3.00# zfs list -o name,mountpoint
NAME  MOUNTPOINT
nfs-s5-p0 /nfs-s5-p0
nfs-s5-p0/d5110   /nfs-s5-p0/d5110
nfs-s5-p0/d5111   /nfs-s5-p0/d5111
nfs-s5-p0/d5112   /nfs-s5-p0/d5112
nfs-s5-p0/d5113   /nfs-s5-p0/d5113
nfs-s5-p0/d5114   /nfs-s5-p0/d5114
nfs-s5-p0/d5115   /nfs-s5-p0/d5115
nfs-s5-p0/d5116   /nfs-s5-p0/d5116
nfs-s5-p1 /nfs-s5-p1
nfs-s5-p1/d5117   /nfs-s5-p1/d5117
nfs-s5-p1/d5118   /nfs-s5-p1/d5118
nfs-s5-p1/d5119   /nfs-s5-p1/d5119
nfs-s5-p1/d5120   /nfs-s5-p1/d5120
nfs-s5-p1/d5121   /nfs-s5-p1/d5121
nfs-s5-p1/d5122   /nfs-s5-p1/d5122
nfs-s5-p1/d5123   /nfs-s5-p1/d5123
nfs-s5-p2 /nfs-s5-p2
nfs-s5-p2/d5124   /nfs-s5-p2/d5124
nfs-s5-p2/d5125   /nfs-s5-p2/d5125
nfs-s5-p2/d5126   /nfs-s5-p2/d5126
nfs-s5-p2/d5127   /nfs-s5-p2/d5127
nfs-s5-p2/d5128   /nfs-s5-p2/d5128
nfs-s5-p2/d5129   /nfs-s5-p2/d5129
nfs-s5-p2/d5130   /nfs-s5-p2/d5130
nfs-s5-p3 /nfs-s5-p3
nfs-s5-p3/d5131   /nfs-s5-p3/d5131
nfs-s5-p3/d5132   /nfs-s5-p3/d5132
nfs-s5-p3/d5133   /nfs-s5-p3/d5133
nfs-s5-p3/d5134   /nfs-s5-p3/d5134
nfs-s5-p3/d5135   /nfs-s5-p3/d5135
nfs-s5-p3/d5136   /nfs-s5-p3/d5136
nfs-s5-p3/d5137   /nfs-s5-p3/d5137
bash-3.00#


-- 
Best regards,
 Robertmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   http://milek.blogspot.com

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Re: [zfs-discuss] Re: system unresponsive after issuing a zpool attach

2006-08-17 Thread Jeff Bonwick
 And it started replacement/resilvering... after few minutes system became 
unavailbale. Reboot only gives me a few minutes, then resilvering make system 
unresponsible.
 
 Is there any workaroud or patch for this problem???

Argh, sorry -- the problem is that we don't do aggressive enough
scrub/resilver throttling.  The effect is most pronounced on 32-bit
or low-memory systems.  We're working on it.

One thing you might try is reducing txg_time to 1 second (the default
is 5 seconds) by saying this: echo txg_time/W1 | mdb -kw.

Let me describe what's happening, and why this may help.

When we kick off a scrub (same code path as resilver, so I'll use
the term generically), we traverse the entire block tree looking
for blocks that need scrubbing.  The tree traversal itself is
single-threaded, but the work it generates is not -- each time
we find a block that needs scrubbing, we schedule an async I/O
to do it.  As you've discovered, we can generate work faster than
the I/O subsystem can process it.  To avoid overloading the disks,
we throttle I/O downstream, but we don't (yet) have an upstream
throttle.  If we discover blocks really fast, we can end up
scheduling lots of I/O -- and sitting on lots of memory -- before
the downstream throttle kicks in.

The reason this relates to txg_time is that every time we sync a
transaction group, we suspend the scrub thread and wait for all
pending scrub I/Os to complete.  This ensures that we won't
asynchronously scrub a block that was freed and reallocated
in a future txg; when coupled with the COW nature of ZFS,
this allows us to run scrubs entirely independent of all
filesystem-level structure (e.g. directories) and locking rules.
This little trick makes the scrubbing algorithms *much* simpler.

The key point is that each spa_sync() throttles the scrub to zero.
By lowering txg_time from 5 to 1, you're cutting down the maximum
number of pending scrub I/Os by roughly 5x.  The unresponsiveness
you're seeing is a threshold effect; I'm hoping that by running
spa_sync() more often, we can get you below that threshold.

Please let me know if this works for you.

Jeff

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Re: [zfs-discuss] ZFS se6920

2006-08-17 Thread Roch

WYT said:

  Hi all,

  My company will be acquiring the Sun SE6920 for our storage
  virtualization project and we intend to use quite a bit of ZFS as
  well.  The 2 technologies seems somewhat at odds since the 6920 means
  layers of hardware abstraction but ZFS seems to prefer more direct
  access to disk.

  I tried to search around but couldn't find any performance numbers of
  ZFS on SE6920 nor any recommendations where to start or what the
  considerations could be.  Will appreciate any hints in this area.

  Thanks.

  -- 
  Just me,
  Wire ...
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My general principles are:

If you can, to improve you 'Availability' metrics, 
let ZFS handle one level of redundancy;

For Random Read performance prefer mirrors over
raid-z. If you use raid-z, group together a smallish
number of volumes.

setup volumes that correspond to small number of
drives (smallest   you   can bear) with  a  volume
interlace that is in the [1M-4M] range.

And next, a very very important thing that we will have to
pursue with Storage Manufacturers including ourself:

In cases where the storage cache is to be considered
stable storage in the face of power failure, we
have to be able to configure the storage to ignore
the flush write cache commands that ZFS issues.

Some  Storage  do ignore the flush  out  of the box,
others don't.  It   should  be easy to  verify   the
latency of a small O_DSYNC write. On a quiet system,
I expect sub  millisec  response.  5ms to  a battery
protected cache should be red-flagged.

This was just filed to track the issue:
6460889 zil shouldn't send write-cache-flush command to some devices

Note also that S10U2 has already been greatly improved
performance wise, tracking releases is very important.

-r


Performance, Availability  Architecture Engineering  

Roch BourbonnaisSun Microsystems, Icnc-Grenoble 
Senior Performance Analyst  180, Avenue De L'Europe, 38330, 
Montbonnot Saint Martin, France
http://icncweb.france/~rbourbon http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/roch
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   (+33).4.76.18.83.20

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[zfs-discuss] zpool status inconsistent after user error?

2006-08-17 Thread Michael Schuster - Sun Microsystems

Hi,

IHAC who is simulating disk failure and came across behaviour which seems 
wrong:


1. zpool status -v
  pool: data
 state: ONLINE
 scrub: resilver completed with 0 errors on Thu Aug 10 16:55:22 2006
config:
NAMESTATE READ WRITE CKSUM
dataONLINE   0 0 0
  mirrorONLINE   0 0 0
c1t2d0  ONLINE   0 0 0
c1t3d0  ONLINE   0 0 0

2. zpool offline data c1t3d0

zpool status -v:
NAMESTATE READ WRITE CKSUM
dataDEGRADED 0 0 0
  mirrorDEGRADED 0 0 0
c1t2d0  ONLINE   0 0 0
c1t3d0  OFFLINE  0 0 0

!! this because the following cfgadm -c unconfigure would refuse to work
!! otherwise. Cust will retest with cfgadm -f ..

3. cfgadm -c unconfigure c1::dsk/c1t3d0

4. zpool online data c1t3d0

zpool status -v:
NAMESTATE READ WRITE CKSUM
dataDEGRADED 0 0 0
  mirrorDEGRADED 0 0 0
c1t2d0  ONLINE   0 0 0
c1t3d0  UNAVAIL  0 0 0  cannot open

5. cfgadm -c configure c1::dsk/c1t3d0

6. zpool status -v
  pool: data
 state: ONLINE
 scrub: resilver completed with 0 errors on Thu Aug 10 17:04:42 2006
config:

NAMESTATE READ WRITE CKSUM
dataONLINE   0 0 0
  mirrorONLINE   0 0 0
c1t2d0  ONLINE   0 0 0
c1t3d0  ONLINE   0 0 0
errors: No known data errors

!! note: c1t3d0 is shown online; also note the resilver timestamp - it has
!! changed from the first status -v output.

!! but when cust now tries to offline the other mirror half, he
!! gets an error:

7. zpool offline data c1t2d0
cannot offline c1t2d0: no valid replicas

!! cust is aware that the order of commands may not be orthodox, but
!! still is worried that although zpool status says 'everything online',
!! he cannot offline the other mirror half.

Comments? Suggestions? RTFMs?
TIA
Michael
--
Michael Schuster  (+49 89) 46008-2974 / x62974
visit the online support center:  http://www.sun.com/osc/

Recursion, n.: see 'Recursion'
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[zfs-discuss] Re: ZFS write performance problem with compression set to ON

2006-08-17 Thread Anantha N. Srirama
Therein lies my dillemma:

  - We know the I/O sub-system is capable of much higher I/O rates
  - Under the test setup I've SAS datasets which are lending themselves to 
compression. This should manifest itself as lots of read I/O resulting in much 
smaller (4x) write I/O due to compression. This means my read rates should be 
driven higher to keep the compression. I don't see this, as I said in my 
original post I see reads comes in waves.

I'm beginning to think my write rates are hitting a a bottleneck in compression 
as follows:
  - ZFS issues reads
  - ZFS starts compressing the data before the write and cannot drain the input 
buffers fast enough; this results in reads to stop.
  - ZFS completes compression and writes out data at a much smaller rate due to 
the smaller compressed data stream.

I'm not a filesystem wizard but shouldn't ZFS take advantage of my available 
CPUs to drain the input buffer faster (parallel)? It is possible that you've 
some internal throttles in place to make ZFS a good citizen in the Solaris 
landscape; a la algorithms in place to prevent cache flooding by one 
host/device in EMC/Hitachi.

I'll perform some more tests with different datasets and report to the forum. 
Now if only I can convince my storage administrator to provision me raw disks 
instead of the mirrored disks so I can let ZFS do the same for me, another 
battle another day ;-)

Thanks.
 
 
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Re: [zfs-discuss] Re: ZFS write performance problem with compression set to ON

2006-08-17 Thread Roch


Anantha N. Srirama writes:

  Therein lies my dillemma:
  
- We know the I/O sub-system is capable of much higher I/O rates
- Under the test setup I've SAS datasets which are lending
  themselves to compression. This should manifest itself as lots of read
  I/O resulting in much smaller (4x) write I/O due to compression. This
  means my read rates should be driven higher to keep the compression. I
  don't see this, as I said in my original post I see reads comes in
  waves. 
  
  I'm beginning to think my write rates are hitting a a bottleneck in 
  compression as follows:
  
- ZFS issues reads
  
- ZFS starts compressing the data before the write and cannot drain
  the input buffers fast enough; this results in reads to stop. 
  
- ZFS completes compression and writes out data at a much smaller
  rate due to the smaller compressed data stream. 
  
  I'm not a filesystem wizard but shouldn't ZFS take advantage of my
  available CPUs to drain the input buffer faster (parallel)? It is
  possible that you've some internal throttles in place to make ZFS a
  good citizen in the Solaris landscape; a la algorithms in place to
  prevent cache flooding by one host/device in EMC/Hitachi. 
  
  I'll perform some more tests with different datasets and report to the
  forum. Now if only I can convince my storage administrator to
  provision me raw disks instead of the mirrored disks so I can let ZFS
  do the same for me, another battle another day ;-) 
  
  Thanks.
   
   
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Yes, compression runs in the context of a single thread per
pool so it seems quite possible that it will cause the
behavior you see. The issue is being tracked here:


http://bugs.opensolaris.org/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=6460622

-r

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Re[2]: [zfs-discuss] zpool import/export

2006-08-17 Thread Robert Milkowski
Hello Eric,

Wednesday, August 16, 2006, 4:49:27 PM, you wrote:

ES This seems like a reasonable RFE.  Feel free to file it at
ES bugs.opensolaris.org.

I've just did :)

However currently 'zpool import A B' means importing pool A and
renaming it to pool B.

I think it would be better to change current behavior and rename only
with given switch like 'zpool import A -n B' or something like that
and 'zpool import A B' (zpool import pool ... ...) means importing all
those specified pools. That way it will be more intuitive and
consistent with zpool export.

What do you think?

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Re[2]: [zfs-discuss] ZFS se6920

2006-08-17 Thread Robert Milkowski
Hello Roch,

Thursday, August 17, 2006, 11:08:37 AM, you wrote:
R My general principles are:

R If you can, to improve you 'Availability' metrics, 
R let ZFS handle one level of redundancy;

R For Random Read performance prefer mirrors over
R raid-z. If you use raid-z, group together a smallish
R number of volumes.

R setup volumes that correspond to small number of
R drives (smallest   you   can bear) with  a  volume
R interlace that is in the [1M-4M] range.

Why that big interlace? With lot of small reads it could actually
introduce large overhead, right? I can understand something like
960KB, but 4M?






-- 
Best regards,
 Robertmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   http://milek.blogspot.com

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[zfs-discuss] in-kernel gzip compression

2006-08-17 Thread Robert Milkowski
Hello zfs-discuss,

  Is someone actually working on it? Or any other algorithms?
  Any dates?

-- 
Best regards,
 Robert  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://milek.blogspot.com

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[zfs-discuss] Re: commercial backup software and zfs

2006-08-17 Thread Louwtjie Burger
Hi there

Did a backup/restore on TSM, works fine.
 
 
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Re: Re[2]: [zfs-discuss] ZFS se6920

2006-08-17 Thread Roch
Robert Milkowski writes:
  Hello Roch,
  
  Thursday, August 17, 2006, 11:08:37 AM, you wrote:
  R My general principles are:
  
  R If you can, to improve you 'Availability' metrics, 
  R let ZFS handle one level of redundancy;
  
  R For Random Read performance prefer mirrors over
  R raid-z. If you use raid-z, group together a smallish
  R number of volumes.
  
  R setup volumes that correspond to small number of
  R drives (smallest   you   can bear) with  a  volume
  R interlace that is in the [1M-4M] range.
  
  Why that big interlace? With lot of small reads it could actually
  introduce large overhead, right? I can understand something like
  960KB, but 4M?
  

I also think we should be fine with 1M.

Not sure what overhead we're talking here.
Did you mean large skew ? During a pool synch, at least, one 
of interest, we expect to have lots of data to synch, even
if it's just a 1GB, 4M interlace still spreads to 256 disks.

-r

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Re: [zfs-discuss] Re: Why is ZFS raidz slower than simple ufs mount?

2006-08-17 Thread Victor Latushkin

Hi Bob,

you are using some non-Sun SCSI HBA. Could you please be more specific 
about HBA model and driver?


You are getting pretty the same high CPU load with write to single-disk 
UFS and raid-z. This may mean that the problem is not with ZFS itself.


Victor

Bob Evans wrote:

Robert,

Sorry about not being clearer.

The storage unit I am using is configured as follows:

X X X X X X X   X X X X X X X
 \ 
  \-- (Each X is an 18 GB SCSI Disk)


The first 7 disks have been used for the ZFS RaidZ, I used the last disk (#14) 
for my UFS target.  The first 7 are on one scsi channel, the next 7 are on the 
other channel.

Here is the output of zpool status:
  pool: z
 state: ONLINE
 scrub: none requested
config:

NAMESTATE READ WRITE CKSUM
z   ONLINE   0 0 0
  raidz   ONLINE   0 0 0
c3t0d0  ONLINE   0 0 0
c3t1d0  ONLINE   0 0 0
c3t2d0  ONLINE   0 0 0
c3t3d0  ONLINE   0 0 0
c3t4d0  ONLINE   0 0 0
c3t5d0  ONLINE   0 0 0
c3t8d0  ONLINE   0 0 0

errors: No known data errors

Here is the format of each of the 14 disks in the array:
partition print
Current partition table (original):
Total disk sectors available: 35548662 + 16384 (reserved sectors)

Part  TagFlag First SectorSizeLast Sector
  0usrwm34  16.95GB 35548662
  1 unassignedwm 0  0  0
  2 unassignedwm 0  0  0
  3 unassignedwm 0  0  0
  4 unassignedwm 0  0  0
  5 unassignedwm 0  0  0
  6 unassignedwm 0  0  0
  8   reservedwm  35548663   8.00MB 35565046


I ufs mounted the target disk by doing the following:

newfs /dev/rdsk/c4t8d0s0
mount /foo /dev/dsk/c4t8d0s0

Thanks!
 
 
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[zfs-discuss] Re: commercial backup software and zfs

2006-08-17 Thread Louwtjie Burger
No ACL's ...
 
 
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[zfs-discuss] Re: Re: Why is ZFS raidz slower than simple ufs mount?

2006-08-17 Thread Bob Evans
First, I apologize, I listed the Antares in my original post, it was one of two 
scsi cards I tested with.  The posted CPU snapshots were from the LSI 22320 
card (mentioned below).

I've tried this with two different SCSI cards.  As far as I know, both are 
standard SCSI cards used for Suns.   Sun lists the LSI 22320 as a supported HBA 
(I believe).  They are:

LSI 22320 64-bit PCI-X Ultra 320 SCSI Dual Channel HBA (newer card)
Antares PCI SCSI-2U2WL dual 80 MB/Sec SCSI (older card)

I get the same results for both cards...  I use the default drivers that 
Solaris 10 Update 2 provides.

I think we got the newer card through Sun, but I don't have the original box.  
The older card had been used in an Enterprise 450 box.

Bob
 
 
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Re: [zfs-discuss] in-kernel gzip compression

2006-08-17 Thread Matthew Ahrens
On Thu, Aug 17, 2006 at 02:53:09PM +0200, Robert Milkowski wrote:
 Hello zfs-discuss,
 
   Is someone actually working on it? Or any other algorithms?
   Any dates?

Not that I know of.  Any volunteers? :-)

(Actually, I think that a RLE compression algorithm for metadata is a
higher priority, but if someone from the community wants to step up, we
won't turn your code away!)

--matt
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Re: [zfs-discuss] in-kernel gzip compression

2006-08-17 Thread Adam Leventhal
On Thu, Aug 17, 2006 at 10:00:32AM -0700, Matthew Ahrens wrote:
 (Actually, I think that a RLE compression algorithm for metadata is a
 higher priority, but if someone from the community wants to step up, we
 won't turn your code away!)

Is RLE likely to be more efficient for metadata? Have you taking a stab
as estimating the comparative benefits?

Adam

-- 
Adam Leventhal, Solaris Kernel Development   http://blogs.sun.com/ahl
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Re: [zfs-discuss] in-kernel gzip compression

2006-08-17 Thread Matthew Ahrens
On Thu, Aug 17, 2006 at 10:28:10AM -0700, Adam Leventhal wrote:
 On Thu, Aug 17, 2006 at 10:00:32AM -0700, Matthew Ahrens wrote:
  (Actually, I think that a RLE compression algorithm for metadata is a
  higher priority, but if someone from the community wants to step up, we
  won't turn your code away!)
 
 Is RLE likely to be more efficient for metadata?

No, it it not likely to achieve a higher compression ratio.  However, it
should use significantly less CPU time.  We've seen some circumstances
where the CPU usage caused by compressing metadata can be not as trivial
as we'd like.

--matt
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Re: [zfs-discuss] Why is ZFS raidz slower than simple ufs mount?

2006-08-17 Thread Richard Elling - PAE

Bob Evans wrote:

Hi, this is a follow up to Significant pauses to zfs writes.

I'm getting about 15% slower performance using ZFS raidz than if I just mount 
the same type of drive using ufs.


What is your expectation?
 -- richard
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[zfs-discuss] Proposal: user-defined properties

2006-08-17 Thread Eric Schrock
Following up on a string of related proposals, here is another draft
proposal for user-defined properties.  As usual, all feedback and
comments are welcome.

The prototype is finished, and I would expect the code to be integrated
sometime within the next month.

- Eric

INTRODUCTION

ZFS currently supports a well-defined set of properties for managing ZFS
datasets.  These properties represent either read-only statistics
exported by the ZFS framework ('available', 'compressratio', etc), or
editable properties which affect the behavior of ZFS ('compression',
'readonly', etc).

While these properties provide a structured way to interact with ZFS, a
common request is to allow unstructured properties to be attached to ZFS
datasets.   This is covered by the following RFE:

6281585 user defined properties

This would allow administrators to add annotations to datasets, as well
as allowing ISVs to store application-specific settings that interact
with individual datasets.

DETAILS

This proposal adds a new classification of ZFS properties known as 'user
properties'.  The existing native properties will remain, as they
provide additional semantics (mainly validation) which are closely tied
to the underlying implementation.

Any property which contains a colon (':') is defined as a 'user
property'.  The name can contain alphanumeric characters, plus the
following special characters: ':', '-', '.', '_'.  User properties are
always strings, and are always inherited.  No additional validation is
done on the contents.  Properties are set and retrieved through the
standard mechanisms: 'zfs set', 'zfs get', and 'zfs inherit'.
Inheriting a property which is not set in any parent is equivalent to
clearing the property, as there is no default value for user-defined
properties.

It is expected that the colon will serve two purposes: to distinguish
between native properties and provide an (unenforced) namespace for user
properties.  For example, it is hoped that properties are defined as
'module:property', to group properties together and to provide a
larger namespace for logical separation of properties.  No enforcement
of this namespace is done by ZFS, however, and the empty string is valid
on both sides of the colon.

EXAMPLES

# zfs set local:department=12345 test
# zfs get -r local:department test 
NAME  PROPERTY  VALUE  SOURCE
test  local:department  12345  local
test/foo  local:department  12345  inherited from test
# zfs list -o name,local:department
NAME  LOCAL:DEPARTMENT
test  12345
test/foo  12345
# zfs set local:department=67890 test/foo
# zfs inherit local:department test
# zfs get -s local -r all test 
NAME  PROPERTY  VALUE  SOURCE
test/foo  local:department  12345  local
# zfs list -o name,local:department
NAME  LOCAL:DEPARTMENT
test  -
test/foo  12345

MANPAGE CHANGES

TBD

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Re: [zfs-discuss] commercial backup software and zfs

2006-08-17 Thread Mike Gerdts

On 8/15/06, Kevin Maguire [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hi

Is the following an accurate sstatment of the current status with (for me) the 
3 main commercial ackup software solutions out there


It seems to me that if zfs send/receive where hooked in with ndmp
(http://ndmp.org), that zfs would very quickly have pretty broad
backup support.  This could provide a distributed, authenticated
transport for replicating file systems using ndmpcopy or some of the
snap* enhancements to ndmp offered up by Netapp.

But then again, I haven't followed the world of NDMP lately, and the
efforts at turning the various NDMP Internet drafts into RFC's seems
to be stalled.  A quick search of existing Open Source NDMP
implementations doesn't turn up much.  Do others on the list have more
insight into whether this has been considered?

Mike

--
Mike Gerdts
http://mgerdts.blogspot.com/
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