Re: [ZION] Tweaking Liechtensteiners
At 23:05 10/22/2002 -0500, M Marc wrote: I once had to cross three provinces in Canada to find an open restaurant! I hope one of them wasn't Ontario. You could get mighty smackin' hungry trying that one. Till / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: Voting and parties (was Re: [ZION] Cuba and Castro)
At some point in the past, Mark (and Marc) wrote: Marc: In the U.S. every voter registers for a party (or as an independent -- as I recall the rules vary considerably from Mark: What? You mean to say that you cannot vote in the US unless you register your preference? Is that true? And if it is, what's the point of it? Since your vote is secret, why register a preference? Cousin Bill tries to explain: Different states have different rules for registering to vote. No state (that I am aware of) requires you to register a party in order to vote in general elections, such as those that are coming up in a couple of weeks. Party registration is required by some states in order to vote in primary elections (when choosing the nominees for each party for each office). Georgia, where I am registered to vote, does not require prior registration of party. On the date of the primary elections (or in my case, when requesting an absentee ballot) you state which party's primary you wish to vote in and you are given a ballot for that party. In Presidential election years, Georgia holds two primaries. One for the presidency and one for other offices. In Georgia you can opt to vote in the Democratic primary for president, and then a few months later vote in the Republican primary without any trouble. (Or vice versa) But then when the general election roles around, no one asks party preferences and one is allowed to vote however one chooses. Mark: As to voting or supporting a party: I'm not sure that I follow what Elder Jensen was saying. What's the point of voting for a party if you don't accept their policies? The Brethren have always told us to study the issues and then support the candidate that best represents our interests or who supports the issues we believe in. If a candidate supports things that we are opposed to, then why would we vote for him or her? Okay, granted, probably every candidate supports some things that we are opposed to, but if a candidate supports many things we strongly oppose, why would we vote for him or her? Cousin Bill: I think there is a problem with definitions here. Someone (John?) wrote that he thought it was impossible to be a good Mormon and a good Democrat. Someone else (Marc?) wrote that Elder Jensen said differently. This is where the definitions come in. My definition of a good Democrat is someone who agrees with and supports the party platform, party leaders and office holders. By using this definition, I believe it is impossible to be a good Mormon and a good Democrat, because the party platform, leaders and office holders hold to many planks that are against what is taught by the church. But maybe there is a different definition of being a good Democrat that others use. If one defines a good Democrat as being someone who works within the party to bring about a better platform, select better leaders and elect better office holders (those that would agree with church teachings), then it would be possible to be a good Mormon and a good Democrat. Clear as mud? Bill Lewis AKA Cousin Bill [EMAIL PROTECTED] Guess what! I'm published! Check out this link: http://www.writers-and-publishers.com/ebooks / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Mij, are you out there? (was: High priests)
At some point in the past, Jon wrote: Noj --- Has anyone heard from Jim Cobabe recently? Getting kind of concerned. Bill Lewis AKA Cousin Bill [EMAIL PROTECTED] Guess what! I'm published! Check out this link: http://www.writers-and-publishers.com/ebooks / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: RE: [ZION] Voting and parties
For the last couple of years I've been toying with the idea of becoming a Democrat, although as a conservative and Constitutionalist I don't imagine I would be a very good Democrat. I think I understand a little bit what you are saying and we talked about it when I visited you. I'm torn between the parties. I like a lot of things the Democrats push and I like a lot of things that the Republicans push and the reverse is also true. But, as Gary said, the Democrats are in favor of things that I simply cannot tolerate. And the Republicans in the end make me barf up. The other parties don't have a chance and I don't want to vote for a looser. I'm stuck. What do I do? Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
Gore is a Gadianton too, so what choice do any of us have? I wouldn't fault President Hinckley for voting for a Bush Gadianton before a Gore Gadianton. Who knows? Perhaps he voted for Patrick Buchanan like I did. Or better yet, perhaps he voted the rest of the ballot and left the presidential race unmarked. Isn't it nice when we can speculate about how the Lord's prophet voted? Dog-gonnit John! You made me laugh so hard I spit all over my screen! Where is the bottle of alcohol so I can clean my screen? choking, uhhh Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Voting and parties (was Re: Cuba and Castro)
At some point in the past, Stephen wrote: To make sure the Democrats in an area don't band together and elect a Republican candidate who can't possibly win the general election, and vice versa. - This happens, I'm sure. I mentioned before that this is the way things are done in Georgia. Whenever someone loses a primary, they inevitably use this as an excuse for losing. It doesn't make much sense, though, when both parties are holding primaries. I have mainly voted in Republican primaries. Off hand, I don't recall ever voting in a Democratic primary, but I wouldn't deny it. Before I became of voting age, I understand that practically everything in Georgia was determined at the Democratic primary because the Republican party didn't have much of a chance at anything. That is no longer the case, though Democrats still maintain a firm grip on a lot of offices. BTW, I have sent in my absentee ballot. I have no idea whether it will actually be counted or not. There were many offices in which I voted for neither the Democrat or Republican candidate. I am a firm believer in voting for who you think is best, not who you think will win. That includes the liberal use of write-in voting. (I have voted for Grampa Bill many times in the past, and for two offices this time around. Gramma Letty, too, for that matter.) Cousin Bill / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Tweaking Canada
Marc - I congratulate you on an excellent self-analysis, and I do mean this as a compliment. Now, repent! :-) Jon Marc A. Schindler wrote: I think it's time I correct an impression that I somehow have an anti-US bias. I can see how that would come out, and those of you who know me from LDS-Poll would see it even more there. The reasons, from *my* perspective, for this are that I am by nature a bit of a contrarian, or as I would put it, a force of balance. I'm the kind of person who would join the Democrats if I moved to Utah (or the Republicans if I moved to, well, wherever) What needs balancing, in my opinion? 1. The preponderance of USAmericans on the list (not the list's fault, it's just the way it is). 2. A strong pedagogical streak -- my favourite church calling is teaching, and this extends to political affairs. Since until recently I had the opportunity to trave literally all over the world and see many things firsthand, and consider myself well-read on international affairs, I often have strong opinions which I'm not shy about sharing. 3. The fact that the US is the superpower de jour. A century ago I would have been anti-English so to speak. Complaints from the elephant when the mouse steps on its foot are taken by me with a grain of salt ;-) Human nature is human nature, and there is nothing inherently different about USAmericans per se. If Canada had the power you did, we'd do the same thing you do. In fact, before I get to the actual point of my post, which is to point out that we're just as capable of abusing others as you are, let me point to another example of an interesting paradox; namely, the more powerful a country is, when it follows its own short-term best interests (which shouldn't surprise anyone that it would want to do that), it usually ends up harming its own long-term interests. That example is Saudi Arabia. Now all of a sudden we're realizing that the Saudis aren't our buddies. But the Saudi royal family has gone out of its way to cooperate with the US, as I think most of you know. One of life's delicious ironies is that after fundamentalists attacked US barracks in the Eastern Province (where Riyadh, Dhahran, al-Khobar and Dammam are), a new base was built for them in the desert, far from populated areas. The idea being that this wouldn't grate on the nerves of locals who resent the presence of infidels in the land of the two shrines. The irony? The base was built by a subsidiary of SGB -- Saudi Group Binladen, the construction firm founded by Osama bin Laden's father, Mohammed. There's no link between SGB and Osama bin Laden per se anymore, I just thought it was an interesting irony. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Voting and parties
In a primary election where people are voting to select a candidate to run in the general election, only members of a particular party should be able to select their party's candidate. At least, that is my opinion. Unfortunately, people with an agenda have changed this in many states. Of course, this has backfired on them in subsequent elections, but there is this law of unintended consequences that we do have to deal with. Jon Mark Gregson wrote: You mean to say that you cannot vote in the US unless you register your preference? Is that true? And if it is, what's the point of it? Since your vote is secret, why register a preference? / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priest
Then you would logically follow from your argument that one wouldn't have to be ordained a god, king and high priest? That's not what I read in the scriptures. I read in Rev 1:6 and other references that we must be made kings and high priests unto God the Father. I'm willing to learn and change my view but I know of no scripture that says we must be ordained High Priests. Rev 1:6 simply acknowledges the priesthood in that we are a kingdom of priests unto God. If it was necessary to be a High Priest the ordinations would be performed for the dead in the temple. I'll change my mind once you submit proof that one must be ordained a High Priest to become a god. Then again, perhaps when God ordains us to the office of god it includes everything. What I really mean to say Gary is that the office of High Priest is not necessary in this life for every man. I'm sure you will agree with that. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
I was referring to Stake President and up. They have money and prestige. There are plenty of talented yet poor High Priests who never get the call because they don't have money. Money is a prerequisite to those callings. I hope that it doesn't sound like I am faulting the Lord. I'm simply pointing out how the Lord does business. He depends on money and if you don't have it you won't get those high callings of Stake President and up. That's the bottom line. It's always about money. Paul O --- On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 00:02:00 -0500 Gary Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have to disagree with Paul on this one. I know several high priests who barely eke out a living. I've been one for 14 years, and was only a Buck Sergeant in the Air Force when first called. I promise you, they don't get the big bucks. My current bishop works as the general carpenter for the YMCAs here. To make ends meet, his wife also works (their kids are all big). And I could give you many other examples, and not only here in Alabama, either. Yes, I think that the Lord has finances as a consideration for who he calls to certain callings. Moreso, I think the Lord considers a person's talents and capabilities for a certain calling, especially in a presidency. Just as the Lord is going to call a healthy brother to be bishop, over one that is homebound; The brother who has developed many talents is of much more use to the Lord in the work than one who has not developed his talents. Such a brother is likely to have become successful in business also. Next, the Lord uses people who work hard. Imagine a bishop who only gives a couple hours a week to the calling. The ward would fall apart! The Lord looks for hard workers, dependable people who he knows will sacrifice the television programs and leisure time, in order to serve faithfully. This type of person also happens to be the type who tends to succeed in business. Don't condemn the brethren simply because it seems the Lord (or the people) picks a lot of wealthy people. He does it because they ALSO have shown other great gifts of service, wisdom, and faithfulness. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
At some point in the past, Paul asked: So, who all on this list voted for Bush? - Not I, said Cousin Bill. Nor will I ever vote for a Bush. I did vote for the first Bush. That was when I was young and foolish and didn't know better. Cousin Bill / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Jimmy Carter - Nobel winner
Gary Smith wrote: The reality is, the proof is in the pudding. Arg! I have heard so many people say this lately, and it is just plain wrong! It doesn't mean anything! I have it on EXPERT advice that the proper saying is The proof of the pudding is in the eating. This DOES make sense. This was taught to me by my 9th grade 2nd year algebra teach Mr. Odellevan Smith. At that time he was somewhere between 150 and 200 years old, and he had a million sayings, including such gems as: Gravy points - easy points on a test Don't be on the bottom of the totem pole - straighten up, or your going to get sent to the principal Blackbird - it was a negative comment to some class member, equivalent to calling him a jerk and quite a few more that my Alzheimers-riddled brain can't recall at the moment. He was strict, and he was old fashioned, but so long as you were a well behaved student (you could have a sense of humor - that was OK), he was a fun teacher. Jon / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
At some point in the past, Jon wrote: Well, I voted for Bush and I will again next time. -- As did many other people that I know and love. I won't hold it (your voting for Bush) against you if you won't hold (the other) it (my not voting for Bush -- and no, I didn't vote for Gore, either) against me. Deal? Cousin Bill / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: Voting and parties (was Re: [ZION] Cuba and Castro)
If one defines a good Democrat as being someone who works within the party to bring about a better platform, select better leaders and elect better office holders (those that would agree with church teachings), then it would be possible to be a good Mormon and a good Democrat. Thanks to everyone who posted to help me understand the byzantine system of voting in the US (as opposed to the byzantine system in Canada or Australia - why couldn't we have a nice simple system like Iraq; there's one person on one ballot once every eight years. You vote yes or no. And he gets 100% turnout, too. Now _that's_ how to run a voting system :-)). Special thanks to those who explained what a primary is. I was beginning to worry that US members elected their Primary presidents. Bill brings up an interesting point. Is it a good idea to work within a party in order to change it? Presumably the answer is yes. What if the party currently supports every charter violating thing in existence? Just where does one draw the line? = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests have money -- not
Paul Osborne (replying to someone else): Right. And your ALSO points out that the money is required in order to get those high callings of Stake President and up. ___ I can assure you that money is not a requirement in order to be called as a stake president. I can further assure you that stake president is not a high calling. And while I'm here, I would also add that high priest is not a higher office in the Melchizedek Priesthood, just a different office, with specialized (and temporary) responsibilities. Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests have money
-Paul- The Lord will not call a poor man to be an apostle. Poor people are just not good enough for the job. You have to have money. If I remember correctly, Elder Packer spent his professional life in the CES, a job practically guaranteed to keep you dressed in rags. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Is This Authentic?
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/22/science/22JESU.html?ex=1036036800en=53be1b8ad1e35ddaei=5062partner=GOOGLE Here is a story in the New York Times reporting a discovery published in Biblical Archaeology Review. Unless it is a fraud, it may be the earliest reference to Jesus found so far. It is a stone box inscribed with the words, James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus. What do you think? Pretty awesome, huh? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === If you were a poor Indian with no weapons, and a bunch of conquistadors came up to you and asked where the gold was, I don't think it would be a good idea to say, I swallowed it. So sue me. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Canadian 1881 Census now on-line
From this morning's Globe, of all places, the news that StatsCan has allowed the Family History Library to put the 1881 census online. Very good article. http://www.globeandmail.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/PEstory/TGAM/20021023/UCENSN/national/national/nationalTheNationHeadline_temp/13/13/41/ -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] Tweaking Canada
Toronto has become a centre of telemarketing scams aimed at USAmericans: http://www.globeandmail.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/PEstory/TGAM/20021023/UVISAN/national/national/nationalTheNationHeadline_temp/27/27/41/ -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] James's ossuary
I wrote a letter to the editor of the Globe and Mail expressing concerns about the difficulty provenance of this find presents to authenticating it. I also gave Hershel Shanks a backhanded compliment. They chose instead to publish a better, more focused letter, and one from a genuine expert, as opposed to a sincere wannabe. Here's both letters: [Toronto Globe and Mail, 23/10/02] The published one: Provenance problem The article Burial-Box Inscription Could point To Christ (Oct. 22) highlights a problem of international proportions -- the antiquities trade. The clouded provenance of this artefact devalues what may be one of the most important biblical relics recovered. Its authenticity will, perhaps, never be confirmed. Archaeological science relies on documented provenance to put such artefacts into their proper context. From this, we can evaluate their authenticity and, more important, place them in their broader cultural context. Without proper provenance, these artefacts become objects of art or mere curios. The activities of looters, private dealers and auction houses often hamper our understanding of the past, something that is crucial if we are to understand our current condition. The ossuary is a case in point. We have no idea where it came from; the bones it may once have contained are gone and, with them, a chance to broaden our understanding of ourselves. Dougald OReilly Faculty of Archaeology, Royal University of Fine Arts, Phnom Penh, Cambodia My somewhat more scattered offering: Why can't journalists take basic arithmetic courses and spare us their embarrassing innumeracies? In his otherwise excellent article about the new find of James's ossuary (Buried box inscription could point to Christ, 22/10/02), Michael Posner quotes Hershel Shanks, of the Biblical Archaeological Society, as saying that the odds of the 3 names James, Jesus and Joseph appearing together were .05 percent. No. The probability is either .05 or it's 5% -- a mistake of two orders of magnitude, akin to estimating Toronto's population at 50 000 instead of 5 million. In any case, this find isn't new, it's just that Mr. Shanks, who has done a lot of service to popularize the archaeology of the Ancient Near East (witness his loosening up of the death grip the Ecole Biblique had on the Dead Sea Scrolls together with Claremont College a decade ago), is a good promoter. There is a major problem with the find which Posner, to his credit, refers to, but does not give sufficient weight to, and that's its provenance. Archaeologists are not out to prove anything with respect to any sacred text, be it the Bible, the Qu'ran, the Bhagavad-Gitas or anything else, and they insist on finding something in situ which involves documenting its actual finding at the original site. This is the problem which is one of biblical archaeology's dirty little secrets (along with the reluctance of many dig leaders to write up their finds); private collectors who on the one hand provide a value to artefacts by providing a demand for them, and thus encouraging a supply, but on the other hand they destroy the all-important in situ link to provenance. In any case, whether Jesus is the Christ is a conclusion an individual believer must come to within his or her own heart, not in the whitened sepulchres of archaeology. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: Voting and parties (was Re: [ZION] Cuba and Castro)
Cousin Bill If one defines a good Democrat as being someone who works within the party to bring about a better platform, select better leaders and elect better office holders (those that would agree with church teachings), then it would be possible to be a good Mormon and a good Democrat. Sounds good to me. What do you think John? Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
Not I, said Cousin Bill. Nor will I ever vote for a Bush. I did vote for the first Bush. That was when I was young and foolish and didn't know better. Cousin Bill Hey, you just called me a fool. (don't worry, I'm sure I am) I voted for Reagan the first time and I was only 18. I voted for him again. Then I voted for Bush and have not been back to the polls since. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money -- not
I can assure you that money is not a requirement in order to be called as a stake president. I followed it for years in the Church News and have clearly seen that the money guys get the callings. I can't deny those facts. The guys who get called in third world countries are the merchants and they have money too. It's one of those unwritten rules. ;-) I can further assure you that stake president is not a high calling. Well, he is the boss of my Elders Quroum President. And, I look up to him too. And while I'm here, I would also add that high priest is not a higher office in the Melchizedek Priesthood, just a different office, with specialized (and temporary) responsibilities. Ok. Have a nice day. :-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
My former stake president was a public school teacher and later an administrator and my current stake president is in a similar income bracket. Both of them are most likely below the 50th percentile with regard to income within the stake boundaries. How can you justify statements like that, Paul? The Lord will call whom He will call, income notwithstanding. That's really odd. But administrators make more money than everyone else under the administration so he has the most money. I'm right and you're wrong. Where do you live? Yes, the Lord calls whoever he wants but they always have money, resources, and prestige. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
Will we ever see a janitor, a manual laborer, a machinist, a farmer, a rancher, as an apostle? To test this out - what are the current or former occupations of the apostles? Its interesting that a carpenter ended up saving mankind. Vic --- Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don't condemn the brethren simply because it seems the Lord (or the people) picks a lot of wealthy people. He does it because they ALSO have shown other great gifts of service, wisdom, and faithfulness. Right. And your ALSO points out that the money is required in order to get those high callings of Stake President and up. Thank you for making my point, Gary. The Lord will not call a poor man to be an apostle. Poor people are just not good enough for the job. You have to have money. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / _ Washington DC's Largest FREE Email service. --- http://www.DCemail.com --- A Washington Online Community Member --- http://www.DCpages.com _ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get [EMAIL PROTECTED] w/No Ads, 6MB, POP more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Wars of preparation
Marc: You're no fun. I was trying to yank your chain. Dan: Sorry, I was coming down with the flu, and dealing with that misnomer known as Quality Assurance Now I'm trying to wade through all of my messages... Dan R Allen wrote: Marc: Dan, I think I already know the answer to this (I'm not as far along in my course on telepathy as Stephen, but I'm making progress) but I'll ask anyway. Do you find any irony in the fact that Vladimir Putin was head of what used to be the KGB (it's been renamed) and George II (George H. Bush) was head of the CIA? Dan: Not really, I mean let's face it; Most higher political success is less what you know than who you know - or know about them. Both men were in positions that allowed them to have a lot of information about those they eventually succeeded. Is that ironic? I'm not really sure, since I understand the definition fairly well, but occasionally have difficulty extracting it from a discussion. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark. --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] I just hate it
What he said! Thanks, Gary. You have made a distinction that I've been trying to make, but have done it more elegantly: a mistake is not necessarily a sin. Gary Smith wrote: Hopefully Marc and Stephen can remember to be Christians first, and right second. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Jimmy Carter - Nobel winner
Your general point is a fair one, but the problem is we don't really have enough knowledge here. Yes, North Korea deliberately lied and misled. I'm sure Jimmy Carter's not surprised, he's not that stupid. But the fact is that after he went there, a crisis was defused. Whether someone else could have done a better job, or whether it was all a charade is something we just can't know (at least I can't). While we're on the topic, there's speculation that N. Korea's admission that it was lying is also a tactic to pry more aid money out of S. Korea and the West. Gary Smith wrote: Marc, it amazes me how deep you are on so many things, but then you go and say something that really shows you didn't fully think it through. An action by a person really doesn't mean much if it doesn't turn out as it should. Yes, Carter went to N Korea and supposedly defused the The reality is, the proof is in the pudding. A piece of paper means nothing. Nixon's withdrawal from Vietnam with honor was just as naive or stupid. Not long after the withdrawal, the South fell to the North. There was no with honor in the effort. Given the outcome, we should have pulled out in 1968 and saved 40,000 American lives and billions of dollars. I think Nixon was thinking of his own personal honour :-/ Incidentally, in the BBC documentary about Henry Kissinger, they interview a number of former Kissinger aides and senior officials and show him as a double-dealer who deliberately sabotaged the peace talks underway in 1968, an election which Nixon won very, very narrowly (in fact, as I recall -- I was living in the States at the time and was in 9th grade -- he got a smaller popular vote than HHH), so that Nixon would appoint him national security director. He allegedly did this by promising the then-leader of S. Vietnam that he could get a better deal. As it happened, the treaty he finally worked out cost several tens of thousands more of US deaths, I don't know how many Australians and other Allies, and untold thousands of Cambodians, Laotian and Vietnamese deaths, before he got...exactly the same terms as had been proposed in 1968. For that reason alone I think he's committed a crime against humanity. George Sr's treaties with Iraq are also showing wear and tear. Iraq is laughing at the agreements. Of course we need to go back in, in order to cram that paper down Saddam's little throat! Actually that's technically not true. The treaty that ended the war committed Iraq to stay out of Kuwait, which they have, to allow no-fly zones (which are active), and to hold to the UN Security Council resolutions on arms inspections. The last one was 1998, and this is the one the US is trying to get changed because they exclude the presidential palaces. I feel no need for anyone to cram anything down anyone's throat. It's simply not the US's or anyone else's role to do this. By what authority? Because you can? Because you feel you should? And Clinton's treaties for England/Ireland, Israel/Palestine, and several others are in the toilet, also. We're killing trees for no reason whatsoever, because no one is willing to put teeth into any of these treaties. I don't understand your point about England and Ireland. You'll note I haven't spared either political party. The reality is, people are either trustworthy or they aren't. A wise man learns to quickly recognize just who is going to play nice and by the rules, and who isn't. Any honest historian would have told you that the Palestinians and N Koreans and Iraqis would not keep their promises, unless it was beneficial to them. How? Because history shows a pattern of lies and deceit. the leopard does not change his spots easily. The U.S. has also reneged on treaties. Washington allowed Alaska to break (not opt out, as most treaties allow, but simply to ignore, to break) the Pacific Salmon Treaty without repercussions and it regularly breaks the NAFTA treaty, for instance (Canada does, too, just to be fair, but most NAFTA tribunal rulings and WTO appeals have been in Canada's and Mexico's favour, primarily because Bush preaches free trade but doesn't dare practise it with mid-term elections coming up, imo). There are only two types of events that have gotten people to actually change: conversion to the gospel, and total humiliation through an all-out war. Germans and Japanese aren't militarily aggressive anymore, because they were so devastated in war, it changed their world-view suddenly. It took being shell-shocked as bad as they were in Dresden and Hiroshima, to make serious changes. In other words, imperialist wars of aggression always end in disaster for the aggressor? Like Assyria? And no, I'm not saying the USA is Assyria in an existential sense. As I've repeatedly said, my usage of that typology isn't related to nation-states per se, but to the actions of what really amounts to a group of nations, but led by the USA. So one is assyrian behaviourally,
RE: [ZION] High Priests have money -- not
Paul Osborne: I can assure you that money is not a requirement in order to be called as a stake president. I followed it for years in the Church News and have clearly seen that the money guys get the callings. I can't deny those facts. ... It's one of those unwritten rules. ;-) ___ Glad to note you have a sense of humor, since I have never seen any facts in the Church News that tell how much stake presidents get paid in their work. I will agree that many do well. The same skills of hard work, administrative experience, and leadership they have gained in Church callings serve to benefit them in their work, as well. But not all of them are well-paid money guys. I know several who served while living under the poverty level. And we know what those unwritten rules are, because they are actually written down and posted at John's website. :-) Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
To test this out - what are the current or former occupations of the apostles? Here are some of the former occupations of all the current apostles. Neither President Hinckley nor President Packer could have become wealthy from their employment, so Paul's theory fails in those cases (granted, they may have made money from their books, investments, consulting fees, etc.). All or almost all the Brethren have university degrees and several have multiple degrees. None appear to have been mainly manual labourers. President Hinckley: employee of the Church since completing his mission. President Monson: general manager of Deseret Press. President Faust: attorney (lawyer). President Packer: pilot during WWII, supervisor of Seminaries and Institutes of Religion. Elder Perry: vice president and treasurer of department store chain in Boston. Elder Haight: district and regional manager of large retail store chain, assistant to president of BYU. Elder Maxwell: executive vice president of the University of Utah, Church commissioner of education. Elder Nelson: Renowned surgeon and medical researcher. Elder Oaks: nine years as president of BYU, and three years as Utah Supreme Court justice. Elder Ballard: various business enterprises, including automotive, real estate and investments. Elder Wirthlin: president of trade association in Utah. Elder Scott: Worked 12 years developing military and private nuclear power reactors; subsequently consultant to nuclear power industry. Elder Hales: jet fighter pilot; was an executive with four major national companies. Elder Holland: president of Brigham Young University. Elder Eyring: president of Ricks College, 1971-77. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] liberal question
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gary, Opinions being what they are; being a liberal (whether a Democrat in the U.S., or perhaps a member of the Labour party in England), it is incompatible with being a straight-laced LDS. Well, as I think I've already mentioned, there is a Labour MP who's a strait-laced Latter-day Saint. According to a news item in the Feb. 1991 Ensign, Terry Rooney, Labour MP for Bradford North, is also (or was at the time) a convert of 5 years, and Elders Quorum President in the Bradford 2nd Ward. I don't know many elders quorum presidents who aren't strait-laced and their laces are usually pretty straight, too, when they're not wearing loafers ;-) The liberal philosphy tending towards pro-abortion, pro-gay, pro-pornography, the free-drug/booze/sex culture. This would be so anti-LDS's philososphy, that in all conscienceness that the straight-laced LDS would even attempt to go to the temple. This is not what liberal means to me at all. But I won't argue the point any further -- the term, like the demonization, doesn't translate well across borders. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
Mark Gregson wrote: To test this out - what are the current or former occupations of the apostles? Here are some of the former occupations of all the current apostles. Neither President Hinckley nor President Packer could have become wealthy from their employment, so Paul's theory fails in those cases (granted, they may have made money from their books, investments, consulting fees, etc.). All or almost all the Brethren have university degrees and several have multiple degrees. None appear to have been mainly manual labourers. President Hinckley: employee of the Church since completing his mission. Specifically, most of his later Church career, professionally speaking, was spent in either journalism- or public affairs-related positions. President Monson: general manager of Deseret Press. So does he report to Sister Dew now? (who's president and CEO of Deseret Book Co.) [just teasing. I know that Pres. Monson is no longer the GM of Deseret News] President Faust: attorney (lawyer). President Packer: pilot during WWII, supervisor of Seminaries and Institutes of Religion. Elder Perry: vice president and treasurer of department store chain in Boston. Elder Haight: district and regional manager of large retail store chain, assistant to president of BYU. Elder Maxwell: executive vice president of the University of Utah, Church commissioner of education. Elder Nelson: Renowned surgeon and medical researcher. Elder Oaks: nine years as president of BYU, and three years as Utah Supreme Court justice. Elder Ballard: various business enterprises, including automotive, real estate and investments. Elder Wirthlin: president of trade association in Utah. Elder Scott: Worked 12 years developing military and private nuclear power reactors; subsequently consultant to nuclear power industry. Elder Hales: jet fighter pilot; was an executive with four major national companies. Elder Holland: president of Brigham Young University. Elder Eyring: president of Ricks College, 1971-77. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Tweaking Liechtensteiners
It was Prince Edward Island. Before the Confederation Link* was built. All he could see was seafood but the service was lousy. *a big bridge that connects PEI to New Brunswick, built about 5-10 years ago. It rises up high enough and is reinforced to allow it to resist icebergs, believe it or not. The Northumberland Strait doesn't get them often, but occasional bergie bits do float down from the Strait of Belle Isle, which separates Newfoundland island from the mainland. Elmer L. Fairbank wrote: At 23:05 10/22/2002 -0500, M Marc wrote: I once had to cross three provinces in Canada to find an open restaurant! I hope one of them wasn't Ontario. You could get mighty smackin' hungry trying that one. Till / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: Voting and parties (was Re: [ZION] Cuba and Castro)
Mark Gregson wrote: If one defines a good Democrat as being someone who works within the party to bring about a better platform, select better leaders and elect better office holders (those that would agree with church teachings), then it would be possible to be a good Mormon and a good Democrat. Thanks to everyone who posted to help me understand the byzantine system of voting in the US (as opposed to the byzantine system in Canada or Australia - why couldn't we have a nice simple system like Iraq; there's one person on one ballot once every eight years. You vote yes or no. And he gets 100% turnout, too. Now _that's_ how to run a voting system :-)). AND you get to shoot your guns off all night in celebration! Kewl! [according to this morning's news, Saddam had to issue a proclamation telling people to stop celebrating -- apparently several people in Baghdad have been killed by random falling bullets. I am not making this up] -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] Famous Zionisto
The quality's not so good because it was scanned without descreening from a newspaper, but if anyone's curious what Tom Matkin looks like download http://www.geocities.com/marcschindler1/matkin.JPG (it's from the Temple City News, and it's the news article about him being called as the new stake president). Tom, if you're reading this, what relation is David Prete to the Calgary Pretes, do you know? Alanna (Wolf, I think is her married name -- her husband's name is Peter) is an old school chum of mine from Forest Lawn high school. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] DC sniper
I am glad that your mother listened and then harkened to that prompting she received. The best we can do in a situation like this is to pray for our families, the victims and their families, and especially for the sniper (or snipers) - that they may come to their senses and realize the horrible crimes they have committed. I pray that the perpetrators will be caught soon. As for theories, I used to think that this was a terrorist act, but now I am not sure. In fact, I was convinced that there were perhaps more than one team involved, striving to create fear and panic in the Capitol and surrounding areas. The ransom note, however, has thrown me. I don't know what to make of it - whether it is legitimate or whether it is a decoy. Geoff Geoff Fowler Network Server Engineer Weber State University [EMAIL PROTECTED] 801-626-6088 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/23/02 04:18PM What do you all think about the DC sniper? Anyone have any theories on it? I'm not sure what to think except that I'm just sick about it. My parents and one of my sisters live in the area...I grew up there...I'm just a WEE bit worried. On the other hand, I know about eternal families and that if anything ever happened, we are sealed as a family. But I'm still worried about them. My mom only does shopping now at a secure military base; she figures she's a lot safer there (side note: two weeks ago, on the day the shooting happened in Manassas, she was planning on doing some shopping there and a distinct impression came to her to not go, so she didn't. It was that afternoon that another shooting happened in the area where she would have been). My sister and her roommates only go out when necessary. When she buys gas, she starts pumping and then ducks (she lives in Fairfax). What do I do? Heidi the fair -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] United Nations
The following article makes an argument against the United Nations that, thought I had never heard before, makes perfect sense, and leads me to wonder why I had never heard it before. (I'm also slightly embarrassed that I had never thought of it before.) United Nations James Humes Wednesday, Oct. 23, 2002 http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/10/22/230948.shtml The argument in a nutshell: When did the United Nations become the supreme moral authority of the world? One might advance such a proposition if most of the organization were represented by democratic governments, but that is not the case. Of the 191 nations in the United Nations only about 40 percent (85 countries) are democratic societies that enjoy political rights and civil liberties. The rest are either controlled by dictators or by a one-party government. CB / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Stop stuffing Marc, or something to that effect....
I posted a definition of an ideologue here a short time ago. Here it is again from Oxford's: 1. a system of ideas or way of thinking, usu. relating to politics or society, or to the conduct of a class or group, and REGARDED AS JUSTIFYING ACTIONS, EXP. ONE THAT IS HELD IMPLICITLY OR ADOPTED AS A WHOLE AND MAINTAINED REGARDLESS OF THE COURSE OF EVENTS. [emphasis added] That one has strong opinions does not necessarily make him an ideologue. Only if he proceeds from the basis of pre-conceived notions which are not open to change is he an ideologue. A search of the list's archives will show occasions when I have admitted that another person was right and I was wrong. I do not believe I'm an ideologue. An ideologue is someone with biases who operates solely on the basis of those biases and when he encounters something that contradicts the bias, will insist on sticking with the bias rather than changing it to enlarge the new knowledge. And in any case, if I am an ideologue, what exactly do you think is my ideology? My voting record, wrt political parties, is almost all across the spectrum, from the far right to the centre-left (I've never voted for the NDP, which used to be far left but is now close to extinction on the national scene). I ran once for federal parliament and for the Ontario provincial parliament, both times as a Libertarian. As a non-USAmerican, it is only natural that I am going to see things with a different bias. It goes with the territory (literally). But knowing that (having lived 8 years in foreign countries and having visited some 40-odd countries on business has helped) I'm always open to change my views, so I don't consider myself an ideologue. And by cultist I mean someone who tends to concentrate on certain issues and/or a subset of writings and teachings of the brethren to the exclusion of others. None of us is perfectly balanced in this area, so the boundaries are by nature subjective, I'll admit. Gary Smith wrote: I'm glad you are not an unnatural human. I've never considered you a cultist, but not an idealogue??? What's one definition of an idealogue? Maybe someone who spends obsessive amounts of electrons defending his personal point of view on an email list full of conservatives? ;-) You aren't a cultist, but you definitely do defend your ideological viewpoints very aggressively. And I'm glad you do. It forces us cultists to review our own belief systems. ;-) K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Marc: Naturally I'm human and *do* have my biases, but I'm not a cultist or an ideologue. Stay tuned for more on this. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Tweaking Liechtensteiners
Oooyyy! Mark or Bonnie (or even Heidi) -- didn't you tell him about Tim Horton's? That poor boy. (Gary, not Tim) [If you're ever in trouble on the highway, head for the closest Tim Horton's -- you'll always find cops there...] Gary Smith wrote: So, you are judging a small patch of Europe because you couldn't find an open restaurant? Have you tried doing that in Canada? I once had to cross three provinces in Canada to find an open restaurant! At least Liechtenstein has the presence of mind of being only 10 minutes from a good restaurant! Oh, and as for them being idealogues...It takes one to know one! And my mother dresses me funny. But that's because it's cold here. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] liberal question
The liberal philosphy tending towards pro-abortion, pro-gay, pro-pornography, the free-drug/booze/sex culture. This would be so anti-LDS's philososphy, that in all conscienceness that the straight-laced LDS would even attempt to go to the temple. This is not what liberal means to me at all. But I won't argue the point any further -- the term, like the demonization, doesn't translate well across borders. God is a liberal. (James 1:5) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
Will we ever see a janitor, a manual laborer, a machinist, a farmer, a rancher, as an apostle? A janitor, a manual laborer, and a machinist are not qualified to become apostles but a rich rancher and a rich farmer could be considered. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] And a little on the lighter side...
Clinton aide slams Pentagon's UFO secrecy By Richard Stenger CNN Tuesday, October 22, 2002 Posted: 3:09 PM EDT (1909 GMT) http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/10/22/ufo.records/index.html [A] former White House chief of staff and an international investigative journalist want to know what the Pentagon knows, calling on it to release classified files about that and other incidents involving unidentified flying objects, or UFOs. It is time for the government to declassify records that are more than 25 years old and to provide scientists with data that will assist in determining the real nature of this phenomenon, ex-Clinton aide John Podesta said Tuesday. CB / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] DC sniper
What do I do? Heidi the fair Don't worry. They will catch him soon. A lot of people are watching and those who know the sniper may catch on that something is wrong and report it. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] And a little on the lighter side...
They're all being stored in Iraqi presidential palaces -- that's why the government won't release the report. Cousin Bill wrote: Clinton aide slams Pentagon's UFO secrecy By Richard Stenger CNN Tuesday, October 22, 2002 Posted: 3:09 PM EDT (1909 GMT) http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/10/22/ufo.records/index.html [A] former White House chief of staff and an international investigative journalist want to know what the Pentagon knows, calling on it to release classified files about that and other incidents involving unidentified flying objects, or UFOs. It is time for the government to declassify records that are more than 25 years old and to provide scientists with data that will assist in determining the real nature of this phenomenon, ex-Clinton aide John Podesta said Tuesday. CB / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] DC sniper
By the way, did you know that the FBI employee, the woman at the Home Depot store, was LDS? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What do you all think about the DC sniper? Anyone have any theories on it? I'm not sure what to think except that I'm just sick about it. My parents and one of my sisters live in the area...I grew up there...I'm just a WEE bit worried. On the other hand, I know about eternal families and that if anything ever happened, we are sealed as a family. But I'm still worried about them. My mom only does shopping now at a secure military base; she figures she's a lot safer there (side note: two weeks ago, on the day the shooting happened in Manassas, she was planning on doing some shopping there and a distinct impression came to her to not go, so she didn't. It was that afternoon that another shooting happened in the area where she would have been). My sister and her roommates only go out when necessary. When she buys gas, she starts pumping and then ducks (she lives in Fairfax). What do I do? Stop watching TV news and get on with life. I'm serious. There are risks everywhere, but look at the numbers. How many people live in Virginia, DC and Maryland? How many have been killed? The odds of you getting hit by this guy are a) probably far less than being killed by lightning; and b) certainly no higher than on a normal day in a big city centre. I'm trying to be calming -- not dismissive. Hope I'm going about it the right way. Terror only works when people are in terror. It's like suffering from chronic pain. You learn that you can't make the pain go away, but you can make the *suffering* (which is your reaction to the pain) go away, although granted, it's not easy. Heidi the fair -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] United Nations
Cousin Bill wrote: The following article makes an argument against the United Nations that, thought I had never heard before, makes perfect sense, and leads me to wonder why I had never heard it before. (I'm also slightly embarrassed that I had never thought of it before.) United Nations James Humes Wednesday, Oct. 23, 2002 http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/10/22/230948.shtml The argument in a nutshell: When did the United Nations become the supreme moral authority of the world? It isn't. George Bush is. Or thinks he is. And we Canadians know we are the real moral authorities. ducking -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] liberal question
Thanks for the reminder! It was hard to know how to respond to that well-meaning response without breaking the list's charter. It's all a word game, I think we know that. It depends on how you define words. Paul Osborne wrote: The liberal philosphy tending towards pro-abortion, pro-gay, pro-pornography, the free-drug/booze/sex culture. This would be so anti-LDS's philososphy, that in all conscienceness that the straight-laced LDS would even attempt to go to the temple. This is not what liberal means to me at all. But I won't argue the point any further -- the term, like the demonization, doesn't translate well across borders. God is a liberal. (James 1:5) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:09:51 -0500 Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Did I say that a man had to be wealthy to become a GA? The unwritten rule is that he has to have money and resources. He almost always has a prestigious job and a fine education. That is what the Lord is looking for. If you don't have those benefits you can't be called to be a GA, let alone a SP. The Lord doesn't accept manual laborers into the apostleship. .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:. «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤ Dear Paul: I must wholly disagree here. Our former stake president is only high school educated and a construction worker. He was my Bishop when I was a little girl, and back then he was managing a health spa. In fact, we had no font in the building, so I was baptized in the pool at the spa. They always lived in very modest homes--not luxurious at all. He is also one of the most spiritual men I have ever known. The SP before him lost his job, was supporting a son on a mission, AND SP. They were living out of their food storage for many months while he was unemployed. Again, probably THE most spiritual man I have ever known. He spoke at my husband's funeral in March. I swear, he still speaks directly to the Lord. I don't know how you can know who the Lord accepts and who He doesn't anyway? You must have some bitter experience to be speaking this way about the Lord's annointed. I believe the scriptures are clear when we are told we need nothing more that a broken heart and a contrite spirit. I see nothing there about advanced degrees or family money or an excellent salary. I'm sure if we were to do a survey of SP's, and even Area A's you would find a majority of them are humble Laborers. I think the fact that our beloved President Hinckley was a man of fairly meager means should be enough. After all, shouldn't we all be laborers in the Lord's vineyards? As for resources--we are told, time and time again, to get out of debt and to save money. The men UP there have obviously done just that. If you want to be there, then follow the prophet. Simple. val [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] DC sniper
I didn't know this, but I do know that when the woman vaccuuming her van was killed, the news said she was a former nanny, married and a recent convert to the Mormon Church. val On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 19:40:03 -0600 Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: By the way, did you know that the FBI employee, the woman at the Home Depot store, was LDS? .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:. «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] UN Moral Authority
Marc, I'd love to hear your response to the following: When did the United Nations become the supreme moral authority of the world? One might advance such a proposition if most of the organization were represented by democratic governments, but that is not the case. Of the 191 nations in the United Nations only about 40 percent (85 countries) are democratic societies that enjoy political rights and civil liberties. The rest are either controlled by dictators or by a one-party government. Is it true that most of the member nations are dictatorships and one-party states? And if so, how might that affect the good or evil done by the umbrella organization? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Hindsight
I voted for this Bush, but not because he really excited me. I would really have preferred Steve Forbes. I voted for Bush because he was better than the alternatives. Better imo than Gore or Harry Brown (Libertarian). Now, had Neil Boortz been running, I would have voted Libertarian. ;-) I'm moving more and more toward the Constitution Party. I don't agree with all their platform, but I like most of it. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] High Priests have money
I would say that most apostles will have money. There are exceptions, though fewer and fewer as the Church grows. Even today, many of our apostles are not wealthy, but are comfortable. President Monson has almost always worked in the Church, so basically lives on a stipend given him, plus revenues from the few books he's written, and salary for being on a few boards of companies (mostly Church related). Elder Packer was a college professor, not a wealth creating job. Of the earliest apostles, none were rich. Some were not educated (like Heber C Kimball). K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Paul: Right. And your ALSO points out that the money is required in order to get those high callings of Stake President and up. Thank you for making my point, Gary. The Lord will not call a poor man to be an apostle. Poor people are just not good enough for the job. You have to have money. Paul O Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Good Democrat
I have thought that if several millions of righteous people were to become Democrats, we could change its platform radically, returning it back to its more conservative roots of the 1950s. I'd love to see it back away from its liberal raunch, and back to being a party of character (rather than a party of characters). BTW, I saw Arnold Schwarzaneggar on a talk show this morning (or was it yesterday? Being out of work has killed my internal clock). Anyway, he was discussing possible future political aspirations and his ties to the Kennedy clan. He is a Republican, but married to Maria Shriver, a Kennedy cousin. He told the interviewer that he promised when he got married that it was in sickness and in health. Arnold said that being a Democrat is a sickness his wife has, and so he has to support her through this illness K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] James' Ossuary
Actually, it IS .05 percent. That means it is less than one percent chance of happening. I agree that it could have been stated clearer. As for the provenance, yes it is a shame that there is none for this artifact. However, there are things they can verify. For example, they can compare the writing style on the ossuary with that of others in the timeframe and verify the style is equivalent (it is). Then they can review if any others have the name of both a father and brother on it (only one does, but there is an example of this occurring). Finally, they look to see if such an item was used in the timeframe suggested by the other evidence. It so happens that in Jerusalem, ossuaries were ONLY used between 20BC and 70AD. It fits. So there is a high possibility of this being authentic and in the right timeframe. But imagine having the bones of James! K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Marc:Michael Posner quotes Hershel Shanks, of the Biblical Archaeological Society, as saying that the odds of the 3 names James, Jesus and Joseph appearing together were .05 percent. No. The probability is either .05 or it's 5% -- a mistake of two orders of magnitude, akin to estimating Toronto's population at 50 000 instead of 5 million. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] High Priest
I agree that the office of High Priest is not necessary in this life. I've never said that. I've only said that it is necessary to be a god. When we are set apart to be kings and priests the term priest means high priest. There is very strong symbolism in it. See my other email on this with the quotes discussing the High Priest and King as Messiahs. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Paul: I'm willing to learn and change my view but I know of no scripture that says we must be ordained High Priests. Rev 1:6 simply acknowledges the priesthood in that we are a kingdom of priests unto God. If it was necessary to be a High Priest the ordinations would be performed for the dead in the temple. I'll change my mind once you submit proof that one must be ordained a High Priest to become a god. Then again, perhaps when God ordains us to the office of god it includes everything. What I really mean to say Gary is that the office of High Priest is not necessary in this life for every man. I'm sure you will agree with that. Paul O Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] High Priest
I give Stephen the point that I can't find a specific scripture showing one will eventually be ordained a high priest in heaven. However, i still hold to that point. However, I do have some quotes below. BTW, it isn't just a modern office. Melchizedek was a high priest. Christ was ordained a high priest after the order of Melchizedek (Hebrews 5-7), distinguishing it from the high priest found in the Aaronic/Levitical Priesthood. Alma also speaks of high priests (chap 13), who seem distinguished from the teachers and other callings in the priesthood they had at the time. So, High Priest is an ancient office within the MP. BTW, an apostle isn't a deacon, but does have the roles of a deacon given him, because the Aaronic Priesthood is a subset of the MP (DC 107). A subset of a larger group does not mean the individual who is of the superset belongs directly within that group, but that he encompasses it. Someone asked about branch presidents. A branch president has keys given to him to act as a bishop, without having that ordination given him. He has authority to temporarily preside over the branch. However, one called as a bishop is always a bishop (and a high priest), and always has the authority to preside, if called to do so. Quotes: If the bishopric were absent from a ward meeting, and the bishop failed to appoint anyone to preside, and several high priests and elders were present, whose right would it be to preside at the meeting? The right of presidency in a ward rests with the bishop. If he should neglect to ask or appoint anyone to preside in his absence, the body of the Priesthood present at a meeting would necessarily be the authority which would have the right to call or appoint a temporary presiding officer, in the absence of the regularly constituted authority. No man, without the consent of the Priesthood present, would have the right to assume to preside, unless he was called to do so by the Priesthood present, who generally choose the senior high priest. It would not be necessary, however, to submit the choice of a presiding officer, in a case of that kind, to the Saints for their decision or even approval, except in case of question or division. It is eminently appropriate and in order for the Priesthood present to select the senior high priest, by ordination, to preside. In fact, by practice, it has become a custom, all conditions being favorable, to call upon the senior high priest present to officiate on occasions like those in question. (Improvement Era, 1912, Priesthood Quorum's Table) It is well for the Latter-day Saints to understand the principles of the Holy Priesthood, and the power thereof, that it may be known by you where the authority rests, who has the right to teach and guide and counsel in the affairs of the kingdom of God. The Lord has revealed it in plainness, so that a way-faring man, though a fool need not err therein. Was it necessary that Elder Taylor should be set apart to preside over this people? was it necessary that the Twelve Apostles should be set apart to preside over this people? No it was not, for they already possessed the power, authority and ordination. Was it necessary for the Prophet Joseph Smith to set apart Brigham or Heber or Willard, or any of the rest of the Twelve Apostles? No, for the same reason, they had received the fulness of the Holy Priesthood, the full endowment and the keys, and the authority, and the fulness of the Apostleship; therefore it was not necessary. (Elder George Q Cannon, (Journal of Discourses, 26 vols. [London: Latter-day Saints' Book Depot, 1854-1886], 19:230-237). Oh, here's one from Abraham 1: ...and desiring to receive instructions, and to keep the commandments of God, I became a rightful heir, a High Priest, holding the right belonging to the fathers. This ties in closely with Melchizedek, the High Priest and King of Salem. How? The name Malchi-Zedek means 'King of Righteousness', and Salem means 'Peace'. Abraham sought to be a high priest and king, just like Melchizedek. Adam was a great High Priest. So were his sons that were with himSeth, Enos, Jared, Canaan, Mahalaleel, Enoch and Methuselah; and a great many others bore the holy Priesthood. All that Moses did was by the power of the holy Priesthood. All that Jesus Christ and the Apostles did was by the power of the Priesthood. Jesus Christ was our great High Priest, and He came into the world and laid down His life as a great sacrifice for the redemption of the world. (Wilford Woodruff, Oct 9, 1892, Collected Discourses 1886-1898, vol 3) The System of Melchizedek Like Enoch, Melchizedek was also successful in building up the kingdom of God in his day. Having been approved of God, he was ordained an high priest after the order of the covenant which God made with Enoch, it being after the order of the Son of God. fn He then developed the economic and political programs of the Holy Priesthood. Economically this included the law of tithing, which was given
[ZION] High Priests have money
Paul, What is your definition of money? Is it $40,000? $50,000? $100,000? $1,000,000? Most school administrators I know make about $50K. So if that is your definition of money, then you are right, most stake presidents AND High Priests have money. By the time they get to that age, they have saved up enough and worked their way up in their business enough to make $50K or more a year. But in all reality, $50K isn't really that much, depending of course on where you live in the US. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Definition of liberal
Unfortunately, it is what Liberal now means in the US. It used to be that liberal was one that sought to help the underdog with smart assistance from government, while ensuring the freedoms of the average joe. But the term liberal has been co-opted by fringe groups in the US. Gore is a perfect example of what liberal now means in the US: follows the extreme environmental tactics, reproductive rights, and the rights of perverse groups. In reality, it is a party issue, in that the party has been co-opted from where it was just a few decades ago. My parents were Independents, but had voted frequently for Democrats before Reagan. They passed around a petition to have Ford impeached for pardoning Nixon. But my Mom would never vote for a Democrat on the national level with how the party has gone. I would imagine that in Utah, the Democratic party is probably a little more conservative, as sections of it tend to be in the South. here's a stump question: Can anyone tell me the name of the Democratic Georgia Senator who tends to vote frequently with the Republicans and Bush? (I know the answer, and I can tell you that if there were more guys in the Democratic party like him- who vote on principle and not on party platform, I'd possibly vote Democrat). K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Marc: This is not what liberal means to me at all. But I won't argue the point any further -- the term, like the demonization, doesn't translate well across borders. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] High Priests have money
You make it sound like these jobs were handed to them on a silver platter. Not so. They all started at the bottom, with no silver spoon in the mouth. Any money the GAs have, they earned it. Any education they received was from hard work. Do you think any of them had been wishing and hoping to become an apostle? Definitely not. Try reading President Kimball's biography on his reaction when called as an apostle. Ask your stake president his thoughts on being called a stake president. I'll bet he wasn't jumping for joy. Rather, he was humbling submitting to the calling. There is nothing prestigious to these callings. There is some recognition, but in all reality, the pay isn't that great. Most would prefer to make it to heaven without the experience of being an apostle or stake president, but the humble ones accept the call when given. These men are successful in life because they earned their success. In earning that success, they made themselves useful to God and His work. Of course God is probably going to call an educated man over a ditch digger. If you had a major struggle in your life, would you prefer your bishop be a psychiatrist or a day laborer? Educated or illiterate? Financially comfortable or standing by the roadside with a sign will work for food? God uses those who have qualified themselves for the work. Many are called, but few chosen. Many aren't chosen because they try and do things their way, rather than God's way. They want to use the priesthood for their own use, rather than make themselves a useful tool for God to use. The Brethren had comfortable lives because they earned a comfortable life. The prestige came only because they worked hard and earned it. If you or I don't receive prestige, it is probably because we haven't done anything prestigious. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Paul: $$$ and prestige Need I say more? Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Voting and Parties
At 07:36 PM 10/23/2002, you wrote: IMO, I agree with President George Washington in his Farewell Address, that we should shun political parties. All they have done is divide the nation along a single line without as much as a care for actual platform. Too many people vote for a party, simply because their parents did. Very few vote for the character of the individual or that person's individual platform. Just because a party has a platform does not mean the individual holds to it. Whatever happened to George Bush's promise to help the schools? Instead, he turned the process over to Ted Kennedy and the Democrats' pro-teacher's-union platform to decide what to do. We didn't get what was promised, and most people have forgotten, because they are tied to the party, rather than the policies. Instead of passing laws to protect us from terrorism and to fund the war on it, the two parties are fighting over platform issues: should the new workers be unionized? Should we throw in money for after school programs, so we can help the incumbents get reelected? Instead of hitting the real issues, we have Daschle attacking inane items; and we have the Republicans ignoring the economy in order to win the election through the war on terrorism. Finally, without parties, we would be able to have more people run for office and have a chance of winning. We wouldn't need campaign reform, because money would be tied to the individual and not to a political party and its abuses. And we wouldn't have the crimes of an elected leader protected by a political party, whether it is Nixon or Clinton, if one is guilty of crimes, the entire Congress should honestly investigate it and do their job; not sweep sins under the carpet in order to protect the party. One more thing. We need to put term limits on all Congress. One term for Senate, two for House. Then we wouldn't have people fighting to keep themselves forever in office, and it would reduce the amount of voter bribes. New Senators and Congressmen have a vision to fix America. Old ones are mostly interested in keeping their position. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smith I'd like to see the electoral college used the way the framers intended--each state would decide how their particular electoral college representatives would be elected, and then these representatives would vote for president. This way the chances are a better candidate would be elected rather than mediocre or poor candidates who might look better or have that certain popular charisma than more qualified but less popularly appealing candidates. We don't need term limits. We already have term limits if the people so choose--their vote. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today. --Steven W. Mosher / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests have money
Paul Osborne: ... to become a GA? The unwritten rule is that he has to have money and resources. He almost always has a prestigious job and a fine education. That is what the Lord is looking for. If you don't have those benefits you can't be called to be a GA, let alone a SP. ___ Nice thought. Not true. And I think you may have a real hangup with the word pre$tige. But, that's just my own personal opinion, and I will have another nice day again tomorrow, thank you. Poor as I am in the things of this world. Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] James' Ossuary
It fits. So there is a high possibility of this being authentic and in the right timeframe. But imagine having the bones of James! I think the only way you're going to get the bones of James is if you tug on his LIVING limbs. If you do that Gary I'm sure he'll smack you. ha ha ha ha Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Figure the Odds
-John- Figure the odds. Only a dozen or so have been killed out of population of over 14,000,000. You chance of being killed is about the same as a meteorite landing on your head. Well...not really. I believe there is only one known case of a meteor striking a person -- and she survived. But hyperbole aside, your point is well-taken. In this last two weeks or however long this lunatic has been murdering people, how many in DC have been killed in drug transactions? How many have died in automobile accidents? The fear of the masses, though understandable, is based in what Marc would call innumeracy. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] DC sniper
Hmm. Maybe I've got my wires crossed. The one I'm thinking of worked at the time of her death at the FBI (which doesn't say what she did earlier), and she had red hair. Does that fit in? Valerie Nielsen Williams wrote: I didn't know this, but I do know that when the woman vaccuuming her van was killed, the news said she was a former nanny, married and a recent convert to the Mormon Church. val On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 19:40:03 -0600 Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: By the way, did you know that the FBI employee, the woman at the Home Depot store, was LDS? .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:. «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Definition of liberal
At 08:25 PM 10/23/2002, you wrote: Unfortunately, it is what Liberal now means in the US. It used to be that liberal was one that sought to help the underdog with smart assistance from government, while ensuring the freedoms of the average joe. But the term liberal has been co-opted by fringe groups in the US. Gore is a perfect example of what liberal now means in the US: follows the extreme environmental tactics, reproductive rights, and the rights of perverse groups. Actually our founding fathers (U.S.) were perfect examples of the classical liberal. Etymology wise the word has roots in the more meaningful term, liberty. Constitutionalism. I want to be known as a constitutionalist in the tradition of James Madison-father of the Constitution. Labels change and perhaps in the old tradition I would be considered one of the original Whigs. The new title I would wear today is that of conservative-though in its original British connotation the term liberal fits me better than the original meaning of the word conservative. To show how labels can change or be stolen, a liberal today believes in greater government intervention and less personal freedom for the people, which is practically the opposite of what the old liberals believed years ago. (The Red Carpet, pp. 206-7.) (Ezra Taft Benson, The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1988], 690.) -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] HTML BODY a href=http://www.getusout.org;img border=0 src=http://www.getusout.org/images/guolink.gif;/a PPBR /BODY /HTML / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Alma and High Priests
According to the Old Testament, the House of Israel is supposed to be a nation of priests. I assume that is still true. The lesser priesthood is called the Aaronic or Levitical priesthood. The higher priesthood from which all other priesthoods are mere appendages is called the Melchizedek priesthood. In Alma he talks about high priests being foreordained from before the foundations of the world. But elsewhere it is clear that this means all Melchizedek priesthood holders. So if you want to talk a High Priest, you are talking about an office. If you talk about a priest of the higher priesthood, you would have to include Elders, Patriarchs, Apostles, Seers, Seventies in that definition. I don't believe that the references to high priests in Alma refer to the office of a High Priest. Rather I believe that those references are to those men who hold the higher priesthood, ie. the Melchizedek priesthood. I see no indication in Alma that he is referring to the office. He is referring to one holding the high priesthood. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === Better not take a dog on the space shuttle, because if he sticks his head out when you're coming home his face might burn up. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests
At 11:41 PM, Tuesday, 10/22/02, Gary Smith wrote: It is partially an issue of maturity/age: placing those who have not had a line authority position requiring HP status, into the HP quorum/group, in order to strengthen the individual and also to strengthen the quorum. Yes but that is not what the CHI says. A man who would be more comfortable meeting with the high priests because of his age could be authorized to do so without ordaining him a high priest. Unless there is compelling reason otherwise, such as inspiration to the stake president, a man is called to be a high priest only if his calling requires it. At least that is my understanding. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === I don't think I'm alone when I say I'd like to see more and more planets fall under the ruthless domination of our solar system. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
Gary Smith wrote: You make it sound like these jobs were handed to them on a silver platter. Not so. They all started at the bottom, with no silver spoon in the mouth. Any money the GAs have, they earned it. Any education they received was from hard work. Do you think any of them had been wishing and hoping to become an apostle? Definitely not. Try reading President Kimball's biography on his reaction when called as an apostle. This was precisely what I as thinking of. He really struggled as an insurance broker when he was a young man. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] High Priest
Hopefully, these will help to show the importance of the future ordination of all of us brethren as high priests and kings unto God the Father. Ok. I'm convinced. I look forward to my ordination someday. :-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priest
At 02:55 AM, Thursday, 10/24/02, Stephen Beecroft wrote: I mentioned before that there were two definitions of the term high priest. To be more accurate, there are at least three definitions of high priest that refer to a holder of the true Priesthood: 1. The lead, or head, or high, priest of a group of ecumenical authorities. Thus, Alma was high priest over the land, meaning he was the head of the priests; similarly, Aaron, though not in possession of the higher Priesthood, was still a high priest, since he was the leader. 2. Any holder of the high Priesthood may properly be referred to as a high priest, in the sense that he is a priest (i.e. a holder of the Priesthood) after the order of Melchizedek. Thus it is that Alma calls those who hold the higher Priesthood high priests in Alma 13:9. 3. Specifically, in modern days a high priest is an office in the Melchizedek Priesthood, one that has certain duties assigned to it, normally relating to administrative duties. I believe you are confusing these three, and assuming that any usage of the term high priest applies to #3 above. This is not the case, however. This is my understanding. I like the way you have listed the three different ways in which a person may be a high priest. I believe that the references in Alma are to item #2, a priest holding the high priesthood. And that would include Elders in our own day. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === Better not take a dog on the space shuttle, because if he sticks his head out when you're coming home his face might burn up. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] James' Ossuary
Gary Smith wrote: Actually, it IS .05 percent. That means it is less than one percent chance of happening. I agree that it could have been stated clearer. But he meant 1 in 20, which is 5%. I agree that's not clear from the context, but when you read the AP and other wire service reports that the Globe author used (I'm assuming, because he has so many direct quotes from the wire service version, just basically building up the Toronto link, of course) you'll see that someone has made an assumption that there's about a 1 in 20 chance of having all 3 of these names on an ossuary or any other public record at the time and place in question. But you're right that it's really slimmer than that, because even that calculation assumes there was one and only one such combination possible, and given the common occurrences of the name, I don't buy that. As for the provenance, yes it is a shame that there is none for this artifact. However, there are things they can verify. For example, they can compare the writing style on the ossuary with that of others in the timeframe and verify the style is equivalent (it is). Then they can review if any others have the name of both a father and brother on it (only one does, but there is an example of this occurring). Finally, they look to see if such an item was used in the timeframe suggested by the other evidence. It so happens that in Jerusalem, ossuaries were ONLY used between 20BC and 70AD. Actually we don't know how far back they were used. They weren't used past 70 AD for the simple reason that Jerusalem was destroyed then. The earliest one that has been *found* is probably about 20 BC (that sounds about right, I wouldn't know) but the point is that we can't prove a negative, which is why provenance is so important. Epigraphers and those who have examined the stone and the inscription's physical characteristic (it has a patina on it which shows ancient age, etc.) all bear out. So I'm not saying it's *not* what it might appear to be. I'm just saying we can never prove it. It's like the Shroud of Turin. The only way you could actually prove it *authentic*, even if it *did* come from someone who was crucified in the first half of the first century AD, was by DNA. Next time you see the Lord, ask him for a sampleSee the problem? I'm happy for the world of biblical archaeology, don't get me wrong, and perhaps ironically for someone who's probably perceived as being pro-science, I at least know science's place and certainly its weaknesses. It says nothing about Jesus the Christ, even if it somehow could be proven to be the ossuary of the brother of the real Jesus of Nazareth. It fits. So there is a high possibility of this being authentic and in the right timeframe. But imagine having the bones of James! -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
At 08:47 AM, Wednesday, 10/23/02, Paul Osborne wrote: I was referring to Stake President and up. They have money and prestige. There are plenty of talented yet poor High Priests who never get the call because they don't have money. Money is a prerequisite to those callings. I hope that it doesn't sound like I am faulting the Lord. I'm simply pointing out how the Lord does business. He depends on money and if you don't have it you won't get those high callings of Stake President and up. That's the bottom line. It's always about money. I had a stake president in southern California who was a manager of a college bookstore. I don't think he made much more than minimum wage. The neighborhood where he lived, the clothes he wore, and the car he drove would certainly bear out that out. Yet he was an excellent stake president. While it is true that most stake presidents are wealthy by my standards, that just means they are successful in their work. Even a truck driver or mechanic can be wealthy if he is good enough. And it stands to reason that the Lord would prefer competent men as his bishops and stake presidents. That is probably why I will never have to make that sacrifice. I have no special, demonstrated competence as an administrator. Teaching jobs are at least as important as bean counting, pencil pushing, and paper shuffling anyway. I would much rather teach Sunday School, a priesthood quorum, or seminary than serve in any administrative calling. The pay is just as good, and the work is a lot more fun. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
What is your definition of money? Is it $40,000? $50,000? $100,000? $1,000,000? My definition of money is when you have it in the bank and you don't owe anyone anything except perhaps the mortgage. Most school administrators I know make about $50K. So if that is your definition of money, then you are right, most stake presidents AND High Priests have money. By the time they get to that age, they have saved up enough and worked their way up in their business enough to make $50K or more a year. Point taken. Thanks. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
At 12:03 PM, Wednesday, 10/23/02, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Will we ever see a janitor, a manual laborer, a machinist, a farmer, a rancher, as an apostle? To test this out - what are the current or former occupations of the apostles? Its interesting that a carpenter ended up saving mankind. --- Jesus was a carpenter. Peter was a fisherman. Joseph Smith was a farmer. Brigham Young was a glazier, I believe. Throughout the history of the Church, ancient and modern, the prophets have been not only pencil pushers, but also tradesmen. If there is a temporary abundance of paper shufflers in position of leadership, it is because at this time in history that is what the Lord needs. Perhaps it will be different tomorrow. Isn't it wonderful that this is a living Church. It grows and shifts to meet the current situation. I think that Paul is being deliberately provocative in order to stir up a discussion. I coached him while he was here. grin It works pretty good, doesn't it Paul? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: Mankind. Basically, it's made up of two separate words - mank and ind. What do these words mean ? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
I agree with everything you are saying Gary but I'm not thinking that all the GA's were born with silver spoons. I know they worked hard and got educated and have fine jobs that pay quite well. That is the nature of the man who gets the call. I am merely pointing out how the Lord does business and was not being critical about it. Me personally, it matters not what the profession of my bishop is. If he has the Spirit and the mantle that is all that matters. I'm sure you agree with that. But, I can understand how you would prefer an educated man. Paul O --- On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:43:34 -0500 Gary Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You make it sound like these jobs were handed to them on a silver platter. Not so. They all started at the bottom, with no silver spoon in the mouth. Any money the GAs have, they earned it. Any education they received was from hard work. Do you think any of them had been wishing and hoping to become an apostle? Definitely not. Try reading President Kimball's biography on his reaction when called as an apostle. Ask your stake president his thoughts on being called a stake president. I'll bet he wasn't jumping for joy. Rather, he was humbling submitting to the calling. There is nothing prestigious to these callings. There is some recognition, but in all reality, the pay isn't that great. Most would prefer to make it to heaven without the experience of being an apostle or stake president, but the humble ones accept the call when given. These men are successful in life because they earned their success. In earning that success, they made themselves useful to God and His work. Of course God is probably going to call an educated man over a ditch digger. If you had a major struggle in your life, would you prefer your bishop be a psychiatrist or a day laborer? Educated or illiterate? Financially comfortable or standing by the roadside with a sign will work for food? God uses those who have qualified themselves for the work. Many are called, but few chosen. Many aren't chosen because they try and do things their way, rather than God's way. They want to use the priesthood for their own use, rather than make themselves a useful tool for God to use. The Brethren had comfortable lives because they earned a comfortable life. The prestige came only because they worked hard and earned it. If you or I don't receive prestige, it is probably because we haven't done ng prestigious. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
At 09:43 PM, Wednesday, 10/23/02, Gary Smith wrote: There is nothing prestigious to these callings. There is some recognition, but in all reality, the pay isn't that great. Most would prefer to make it to heaven without the experience of being an apostle or stake president, but the humble ones accept the call when given. I think it depends on where you are. There is little prestige in being a bishop or stake president here in this part of Alaska. But in the SLC-Provo area those callings are definitely prestige callings. You can tell by listening to the wives. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === Better not take a dog on the space shuttle, because if he sticks his head out when you're coming home his face might burn up. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
I think that Paul is being deliberately provocative in order to stir up a discussion. I coached him while he was here. grin It works pretty good, doesn't it Paul? Yep. Your s right John. I like to be provocative and stir things up. It's fun, but I would feel bad if I hurt someones feelings. And, yes, John gave me some good pointers. I've seen how John operates too and have watched him type letters to the list. I've seen his computer, chair, book shelves, and table. I can visualize him right now in my mind. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priest
Stephen Beecroft: If a man who has previously served as elder's quorum president, then been released, is again called to serve, he does not need to have the keys given him. ___ Keys, where needed, are given to the person set apart for a calling. He only holds those keys until he is released. A man who serves as bishop is ordained to that office in the Aaronic Priesthood, then set apart as the bishop of a specific ward and given the keys of presidency. When he is released, he is still a bishop in the AP by ordination, but he no longer has the keys, and would be given them again if he were again called to serve. He would not need to be ordained a bishop again, only set apart and given keys. Deacons, teachers, and elders quorum presidents receive keys, along with bishops and stake presidents. A branch president would also receive keys. The priests quorum president is the bishop, so he already has keys. The stake president is the president of the high priests quorum and is given those keys as part of his calling. An apostle receives all the keys upon his ordination, but does not use them unless authorized by the president of the Church. He holds those keys until he is released (usually by leaving this mortal sphere for a far better place). Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priest
-Larry- Keys, where needed, are given to the person set apart for a calling. He only holds those keys until he is released. How about that? That's directly opposite to what a bishop told me years back. Thanks for the clarification. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
At 10:48 PM, Wednesday, 10/23/02, Cousin Bill wrote: Not I, said Cousin Bill. Nor will I ever vote for a Bush. I did vote for the first Bush. That was when I was young and foolish and didn't know better. I have noticed that on some of the websites run by people with politics similar to my own that they refer to the Bush crime family. heh heh I put my faith in God, my Savior, the Prophet, my Stake President, my bishop, and myself. I don't put any faith at all in politicians. All of them are masters of looking good. And because of that it is impossible to know what they are like underneath the public persona. I must confess that I think of the Bush clan as the Bush crime family. But I don't think they are any worse than the Kennedys, or the Rockefellers. None of those fortunes were earned honestly. This is why I am so into religion. If I only knew the world, ie. Babylon, I would get so depressed I would never get over it. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === If you were a poor Indian with no weapons, and a bunch of conquistadors came up to you and asked where the gold was, I don't think it would be a good idea to say, I swallowed it. So sue me. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] High Priests More Active Than Elders
At 03:08 PM, Wednesday, 10/23/02, Larry Jackson wrote: And while I'm here, I would also add that high priest is not a higher office in the Melchizedek Priesthood, just a different office, with specialized (and temporary) responsibilities. I have heard that half of all elders are inactive. But that fewer than 5 percent of high priests are inactive. Can anyone here confirm or deny this? We have loads of inactive elders in our ward, but we have not one single inactive high priest. Is that normal? And if so, why might that be? I speculate that by the time a man is called to be a high priest he has proven that his interest in the gospel is not a temporary thing. Elders, because they are generally much younger, have not lived long enough to demonstrate by their record that they will remain active no matter what. Of course, there are high priests that have fallen too, just not nearly as many per thousand. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === I can image a world without war, a world without fear, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.' --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests More Active Than Elders
-John- I have heard that half of all elders are inactive. But that fewer than 5 percent of high priests are inactive. Can anyone here confirm or deny this? I can't confirm or deny Church-wide, of course, but around here that's not the case. 50% is approximately right for the elders, probably a bit high, but 5% is definitely too low for the high priests. I speculate that by the time a man is called to be a high priest he has proven that his interest in the gospel is not a temporary thing. Elders, because they are generally much younger, have not lived long enough to demonstrate by their record that they will remain active no matter what. Maybe in some places, but I doubt that's the case here. Of the six elder's quorum presidents I have had in Redmond, four have been over 40 years old. Of the other two, one was a recent convert of about 26 years of age, and the other was in his early 30s and was clearly being fast-tracked and groomed for administrative service (he's currently in the bishopric). Our elder's quorum has also, until very recently, included a very active brother in his 50s and several very active men in their 40s. They had long since demonstrated by their record their activity. But we live in a very active area with lots of leadership-quality men, and I suspect the local leaders prefer not to make men high priests just because they have turned 30 or 40 or 50 or whatever. Just my suspicions. I do agree with at least one thing you've said: High priests are far more likely to be active than elders. This is to be expected, since high priests are the leaders, and the leaders are usually selected from among the most active and faithful of the Saints (men). But that should not be considered a slight upon those faithful Saints of whatever age who are elders. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] James' Ossuary
At 09:00 PM, Wednesday, 10/23/02, Gary Smith wrote: It fits. So there is a high possibility of this being authentic and in the right timeframe. But imagine having the bones of James! No bones, just the box. The bones are long gone. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] James' Ossuary
At 09:17 PM, Wednesday, 10/23/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote: I'm happy for the world of biblical archaeology, don't get me wrong, and perhaps ironically for someone who's probably perceived as being pro-science, I at least know science's place and certainly its weaknesses. It says nothing about Jesus the Christ, even if it somehow could be proven to be the ossuary of the brother of the real Jesus of Nazareth. Maybe with satellite technology they will eventually solve the riddle of the Ark which some suppose is on Ararat to this day. Haven't they used sophisticated imaging and satellite technology to find roads and cities buried under the sands of the Arabian peninsula? Maybe they will learn to see through ice. I'd love to know what is on the surface buried thousands of feet beneath the southern, Antarctic icecap. If the earth has actually shifted its axis, and climates were once very much different, who knows what they might find? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: Mankind. Basically, it's made up of two separate words - mank and ind. What do these words mean ? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests More Active Than Elders
I have heard that half of all elders are inactive. But that fewer than 5 percent of high priests are inactive. Can anyone here confirm or deny this? Sounds about right. Keep in mind though that this also includes the perspective elders who never got ordained. Gee wizz. Now I feel like I'm in with the loosers. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Motivations for Cuban Intervention
Below is an extract from Tragedy and Hope regarding Cuba which also implicates the US as an Imperial Power. Now Quigley is an apologist for the establishment according to Skousen if I remember The Naked Capitalist, or was it The Naked Communist? The agrarian discontent, the growth of monopolies, the oppression of labor, and the excesses of Wall Street financiers made the country (USA) very restless in the period 1890 - 1900. All this could have been alleviated merely by increasing the supply of money sufficiently to raise prices somewhat, but the financiers in this period, just as thirty years later, were determined to defend the gold standard no matter what happened. In looking about for some issue which would distract public discontent from domestic economic issues, what better solution than a crisis in foreign affairs? Cleveland had stumbled upon this alternative, more or less accidentally, in 1895 when he stirred up a controversy with Great Britain over Venezuela. The great opportunity came with the Cuban revolt against Spain in 1895. While the yellow press, led by William Randolph Hearst, roused public opinion, Henry Cabot Lodge and Theodore Roosevelt plotted how they could best get the United States into the fracas. They got the excuse they needed when the American battleship Maine was sunk by a mysterious explosion in Havana harbor in February 1898. In two months the United States declared war on Spain to fight for Cuban independence. The resulting victory revealed the United States as a world naval power, established it as an imperialist power with possession of Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Philippines, whetted some appetites for imperialist glory, and covered the transition from the long drawn age of semi depression to a new period of prosperity. This new period of prosperity was spurred to some extent by the increased demand for industrial products arising from the war, but even more by the new period of rising prices associated with considerable increase in the world production of gold from South Africa and Alaska after 1895 Dr Carroll Quigley, Tragedy and Hope, A History of the World in Our Time, 1966, second printing 1974. You can half tell he's an academic, eh!!!? Clifford M DuberyGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Voting and Parties
At 08:36 PM, Wednesday, 10/23/02, Gary Smith wrote: One more thing. We need to put term limits on all Congress. One term for Senate, two for House. Then we wouldn't have people fighting to keep themselves forever in office, and it would reduce the amount of voter bribes. New Senators and Congressmen have a vision to fix America. Old ones are mostly interested in keeping their position. I disagree on the matter of term limits because it violates the spirit of the Constitution. There needs to be a balance of power among the three branches of government. Over the past two centuries the national legislature has irresponsibly been giving up more and more of its power over the executive branch. Term limits would just accelerate that shift. Without checks and balances we will have dictatorship. And checks and balances only work if the three branches of the federal government are more or less evenly balanced. I believe the idea of term limits was discussed by those in the original Constitutional Drafting Convention and it was rejected. I haven't done the study to learn what their reasons were. In any case, I object to term limits on Constitutional reasons. I know that puts me at odds with my fellow conservatives, but then William F. Buckley campaigned for giving away the Panama Canal Zone. Not every person with the public persona of a conservative actually is one. Finally Brigham Young didn't like the idea of term limits. He once said that if a good man is in the office, he should be kept there indefinitely to keep the scoundrels out of that seat. Term limits can backfire. Actually they usually do. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === I don't think I'm alone when I say I'd like to see more and more planets fall under the ruthless domination of our solar system. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests More Active Than Elders
At 11:29 PM 10/23/02, Stephen Beecroft wrote: I do agree with at least one thing you've said: High priests are far more likely to be active than elders. Physically? ;-) --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
