[ZION] Tom Murphy

[Marc A. Schindler]

For those of you who are following the Tom Murphy affair (aka "DNA and
the Lamanites"), you might be interested to know that Jeff Lindsay has
recently updated his apologetics page on the topic:
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/DNA.shtml

It's not written for a professional geneticist (which is not a bad
thing) but is an excellent survey, imo.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
more people see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
author’s employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.


--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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RE: [ZION] Tobacco interests lose a big one in Canada; LDS involvement

[Chet]

Marc A. Schindler wrote a lotta stuff I'm not even gonna try to keep up 
with.  Mainly, it said that tobacco companies are getting beat on in 
Canada.  

I hope so.  I really hope so.  Because in this country, the tobacco 
companies are being "beaten on" by being sued.  They raise their prices, 
so that everyone wins:  the government gets more money, the tobacco 
companies get more money, the smokers are gonna smoke no matter what, 
and a good portion of the revenue from the lawsuits go NOT to stop 
smoking -- but to subsidize tobacco farmers.

Please tell me Canada's not going to go the same route.


*jeep!
  --Chet
"Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you 
are doing the impossible."

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RE: [ZION] The Laughing Savior

[Chet]

John W. Redelfs wrote:
> Did the Savior ever crack jokes like President Hinckley? Is there any 
> scriptural indication that the Savior ever laughed or had a sense of 
> humor?  Reading the Book of Mormon the other day, I realized the the 
> scriptures, all of them, seem to be very somber, that is, there are no 
> laughs.  What do you think?

I think his comment to Peter (referring to him as a small stone and then 
saying "upon this boulder" - which we learn meant Peter's revelation) 
was at once a pun, a witticism, and a profound statement.  I have no 
doubt that he was very witty and clever in his earthly ministry, and 
that he told funny stories just as wisely as he told parables.  It seems 
to me that, with limited space and time (and with hand writing 
everything) the gospel writers left out as much or more than they put in 
- and they didn't see the humour as (a) very essential or (b) jokes 
which would make sense outside of their culture and time.  These guys 
knew their words were going to last for several thousand years, and 
topical humour dates very quickly.

I also note that I use the word "I" entirely too much in this post.  I 
will now go poke myself in my I and go to sleep.


*jeep!
  --Chet
"Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you 
are doing the impossible."

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RE: [ZION] The latest from Iraq

[larry . jackson]

Marc Schindler:

This just isn't true, I'm afraid. They were *delivered* to the 
Security Council, but the US still managed to get first crack 
at them. An excerpt from the US State Dept. briefing:  ...

___

This just is true, I'm afraid.  And your excerpt begins by 
saying just what I said.

That you wish to ascribe special motives to the person 
running the copy center is your prerogative.  That you feel 
the spokesman was not appropriate because the US 
didn't do it the way you think it would have been done in 
Canada is also your prerogative.

Enjoy your prerogative.

Larry Jackson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




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Re: [ZION] LOTR

[Valerie Nielsen Williams]

I do!  My sons and I have a date -- I told my students today that I
wouldn't be there tomorrow because we had an "appointment" that would
take about 3 hours. . .they never figured it out ;-)

val

On Tue, 17 Dec 2002 19:00:54 -0500 Jon Spencer
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Only 5 hours until LOTR II starts.  Who already has their tickets?
> 
> Jon
> 
> Larry Jackson wrote:
> 
> > Gary Smith:
> > 
> > Hm. First Tom Matkin claims to dislike LOTR, ...
> > 
> > ___
> > 
> > There must be a disconnect somewhere.  I know that Tom has a keen 
> 
> > sense of humor, and I'm sure he enjoys laughing on the rug.  
> > 
> > That's the same thing up north as ROTFL is down south, right?
> 
>
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> 
> 
> 
> 


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[ZION] trinitarianism

[Marc A. Schindler]

My article has been cleaned up now, and should be more readable:
http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/C/trinity_1.html


--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he
will pick himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
author’s employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
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Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?

[Marc A. Schindler]

More to the point, he's a *Hindu* Indian, as you can tell both from his name and
from the way his wife dresses (there was an episode when his family and the
Simpsons had dinner together). Pakistan and Bangladesh were both intended to be
part of India when India was given its independence, but Ali Jamnah [sp from
memory], who would later become the first president of Pakistan, was afraid that
Nehru would not be able to guarantee Muslim rights in the proposed secular state
and insisted on a separate Muslim state. The result was thousands of deaths as
many Moslems left India and practically all the Hindus left Pakistan. And
eventually, of course, the East Bengali Moslems separated and formed yet a third
country, Bangladesh. India has pretty well kept to its secularism (despite the
rise of the BHP) and ironically remains the world's largest Muslim country (in
terms of raw population numbers), whereas Pakistan, and to a lesser extent,
Bangladesh, have become hotbeds of Islamic extremism, and even Pakistan's
historical Christian communities (part of a community which claims to date from
the Apostle Thomas's time) have come under quite a bit of persecution.

India is an incredibly complex and heterogenous country.

Jon Spencer wrote:

> Jim Cobabe wrote:
>
> >
> > Jon Spencer wrote:
> > ---
> > I have come to the conclusion that Marc was cheated by the Pakistani
> > owner of a convenience store in his neck of the woods!  :-)
> > ---
> >
> > Sounds like a Simpsons episode.
>
> Actually, teh convenience store owner in the Simpsons is an Indian, but they
> sort of look alike, so what's the difference?  Opps!  Now I guess I have to
> pull a Lott.  I wonder if I can get in IET (Indian Entertainment TV).
>
> >
> > Come to think of it, perhaps we could draw some interesting and
> > instructive parallels between Homer and his Canadian
> > counterpart-apparent.  :-0
>
> Homer drinks beer, so he could never be a Bishop.  At least I thikn so.
> Marc, you don't drink beer, do you? :-)
>
> Jon
>
> //
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>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] LOTR

[Jon Spencer]

Only 5 hours until LOTR II starts.  Who already has their tickets?

Jon

Larry Jackson wrote:

> Gary Smith:
> 
> Hm. First Tom Matkin claims to dislike LOTR, ...
> 
> ___
> 
> There must be a disconnect somewhere.  I know that Tom has a keen 
> sense of humor, and I'm sure he enjoys laughing on the rug.  
> 
> That's the same thing up north as ROTFL is down south, right?

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Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?

[Jon Spencer]

Jim Cobabe wrote:

>
> Jon Spencer wrote:
> ---
> I have come to the conclusion that Marc was cheated by the Pakistani
> owner of a convenience store in his neck of the woods!  :-)
> ---
>
> Sounds like a Simpsons episode.

Actually, teh convenience store owner in the Simpsons is an Indian, but they
sort of look alike, so what's the difference?  Opps!  Now I guess I have to
pull a Lott.  I wonder if I can get in IET (Indian Entertainment TV).

>
> Come to think of it, perhaps we could draw some interesting and
> instructive parallels between Homer and his Canadian
> counterpart-apparent.  :-0

Homer drinks beer, so he could never be a Bishop.  At least I thikn so.
Marc, you don't drink beer, do you? :-)

Jon

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Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?

[Marc A. Schindler]

George Cobabe wrote:

> Marc, the issue about the statement made by the Canadian about Pres Bush was
> not the issue I was talking about.  It was your general and specific distain
> for American actions and motives in the international arena.

Fair enough. I *do* disdain US actions and motives in the international arena. Not
because I have something specific against the US (au contraire), but the US is
acting in am imperialistic way, and has not lived up to the "Covenant of Ether"
regarding Zion. Now, neither has any other part of Zion, including Canada, but we
don't have the power you do. If we did, we'd be just as bad, I can assure you. I
know it's hard to separate what I'm criticizing from seeming like personal
attacks, but I'm just as critical as past British actions, for instance. In fact,
even though the US is kind of the quasi-imperium of the day, its imperialism is
much more benign than past, true imperial powers have been. And as it happens, we
have a Latter-day Saint to thank, in part, for that fact (I always like to point
to the Clark Memorandum as a brake on "manifest destiny" and the Monroe Doctrine).

> The loop I was
> talking about is the issue you bring up, that Canada is unable to do much on
> their own - they are not often truly in the decision making loop.

True enough. Which means our mistakes are relatively minor, too. But we're not
perfect either. And that's the point: when you have great power and act in your
own self-interest, the damage you're capable of inflicting is all the much
greater.

>
> Especially right now when America has been attacked and will do something
> about it with or without others permission.  It is our right and our
> responsibility to do so.  However, you surely realize that your government
> has acted to support the US in this area.
>

True. We consider it our duty as an ally. But at the same time we think that war
is not the way to go on this one, and we are also a little upset at the hypocrisy
of the US in preaching free trade when it allows its own domestic politics to
drive that agenda, because we, like many other countries, have been the victim of
that dynamic.

>
> I apologize for presuming your motives - you are right, I was wrong to do
> so.  It is a lesson we could all learn about other individuals and other
> nations as well.  Perhaps this lesson could also be applied to judging the
> motives of the United States in the international arena.
>
> I am the new guy and perhaps I misunderstood when I read the rules, but I
> thought that politics was a taboo subject.  If not, then this list will be
> very much more interesting, but nowhere near as uplifting as I was hoping.
>

Oh, politics isn't taboo. Whenever things slow down, one of us always starts up a
political subject. It always wakes the list up!

>
> I really enjoy so many of your comments and appreciate your knowledge and
> insight into so many aspects of what I am interested in, that I would not
> want to make anything less than a friend of you.  I hope that you can accept
> and respond to that.  And that you might feel the same way about me and my
> posts, limited as I am in so much of what we discuss.
>

Thanks for the kind thoughts, and they're reciprocated. It's hard to convey the
nuances of one's meaning in email, and it's easy to misunderstand each other. But
as JWR said when he was here, when you get to know someone and you're friends with
them, you can feel freer to disagree with their opinions, knowing it won't be
taken personally. And John and I have "broken bread together" (as have Stephen
Beecroft and I, incidentally. I'm only sad I couldn't cement that relationship
better by accompanying my minister on the past two annual trips to Seattle we
usually try to arrange for him, to speak at Bill Gates' annual World Leaders
Conference.

>
> But please do not beat up on your neighbors to the south, because I, for
> one, will naturally react to your diatribes.
>

Periodically I need to remind people (and myself) why it is that I'm writing the
things I am. It's difficult to separate the culture from the religion and the
personality from the opinion. But I think you'll know what I mean if I were to say
that it could be "worse" -- we could have members from, say, Australia, Austria,
the Netherlands and Denmark on the list ;-)

[that's an in-joke between George and me regarding another list we're on]

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[Marc A. Schindler]

 You're right. Sorry -- I just got my history mixed up. I guess
I must have been thinking of French intellectual influence that preceded the
revolution (ie de Tocqueville, not to mention Lafayette's military assistance).

George Cobabe wrote:

> Marc suggests:
> "If one feels the specific events of the American Revolution were inspired,
> one
> would also have to believe that the French Revolution was inspired, since it
> laid
> the groundwork for the American Revolution, and the intellectuals behind the
> liberalism (in the traditional sense of the term) that arose in the Age of
> Enlightenment, who set up the ideological structure for modern democracy,
> were all
> inspired by the French Revolution, imo. But I think that's history, not
> religious
> doctrine. IOW, I don't think it's an important distinction"
>
> Hate to be picky Marc, but the French Revolution is generally thought to
> have occurred between 1789 and 1799, sometime after the American Revolution.
> You might recall the keys dates of 1776 and 1782 for America.  I think it
> was the French following the American example.
>
> I may not have understood your comment however, and I have been known to be
> wrong about things like this.  You may be looking at the roots of the French
> experience rather than the historical manifestation of the actual
> revolutionary events.
>
> And I have no problem with the idea that the French Revolution was inspired.
>
> George
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 2:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
>
> "John W. Redelfs" wrote:
>
> > Marc A. Schindler favored us with:
> > >There's an interesting matter of interpretation here. Is "while" a
> conditional
> > >term here, or is it merely setting up the other party's side of the
> > >covenant? And
> > >if one party breaks the covenant, is the other party free to break it as
> well?
> >
> > Obviously yes because we know from the Doctrine and Covenants that the
> > Founding Fathers of the United States were inspired men raised up by God
> to
> > rebel against Britain.
>
> It actually doesn't say this. See below.
>
> > How do we reconcile that fact with the Twelfth
> > Article of faith?  This is how I make the reconciliation.  Rebel against
> > constituted authority but only when commanded by God to do so.
>
> I know this is a common belief amongst US LDS, but I don't think it's the
> only one
> possible. The D&C does not mention the American Revolution, it says the
> founding
> fathers were inspired, but wrt the principles of the Constitution (see in
> particular D&C 101:80; the interpretation regarding the Revolution is the
> reference
> to having redeemed the land by blood, but that's in a separate, independent
> clause.
> Here's the whole verse: "And for this purpose have I established the
> Constitution
> of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very
> purpose, and
> redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.."
>
> I certainly believe the US is the "cradle of the restoration" and that the
> *principles* of the US constitution are inspired (in other words, democratic
> government and protection of civil rights, but not necessarily the exact
> form of
> the US republic per se). I think that's pretty solid. What might be a
> cultural
> addition is the assumption that everything in US history is therefore
> inspired. I
> think there's been a bit of mythologization going on, which isn't unique to
> LDS in
> the US -- think of the term "manifest destiny," which alludes to a divine
> mission.
> I think the Lord uses what happens to His own ends but He has lots of
> options and
> uses whatever situation presents itself. It's not that big of a difference,
> actually, as I see it -- we agree in the end result, we might just differ in
> how it
> came about. After all, Canada didn't have a revolution, but that's almost
> certainly
> because Britain learned a lesson from the US situation, and allowed its
> other
> colonies to evolve independence and democracy as they were ready. I know you
> think
> we don't have the same freedoms you do, but in all fairness, I think that
> boils
> down to just one particular issue, which I'd rather not get into. Despite
> the
> differences in the outward forms, Canada (and many other countries -- most
> industrialized countries) have taken the principles of the US Bill of Rights
> and
> applied them in their own democratization.
>
> In fact, D&C 134:5 specifically prohibits rebellion and sedition. Whether
> that's
> unconditional or conditional depends on what you think the word "while"
> means. I
> understand from my brother, who served his mission in French Polynesia, that
> members of an independence movement there, a movement which advocated the
> use of
> force, were threatened with excommunication. In contrast, you can be a
> member of
> the Parti Quebecois, which is separatist, without be

[ZION] A voice of moderation: "The language of Islam has been hijacked"

[Marc A. Schindler]

Interesting, and welcome, note of moderation from Ms. Sheena Khan, the
head of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, Canada.

<<http://www.globeandmail.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/PEstory/TGAM/20021217/COSHEEMA/Comment/comment/commentColumnistsHeadline_temp/4/4/6/>>



--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he
will pick himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
author’s employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?

[George Cobabe]

Marc, the issue about the statement made by the Canadian about Pres Bush was
not the issue I was talking about.  It was your general and specific distain
for American actions and motives in the international arena.  The loop I was
talking about is the issue you bring up, that Canada is unable to do much on
their own - they are not often truly in the decision making loop.
Especially right now when America has been attacked and will do something
about it with or without others permission.  It is our right and our
responsibility to do so.  However, you surely realize that your government
has acted to support the US in this area.

I apologize for presuming your motives - you are right, I was wrong to do
so.  It is a lesson we could all learn about other individuals and other
nations as well.  Perhaps this lesson could also be applied to judging the
motives of the United States in the international arena.

I am the new guy and perhaps I misunderstood when I read the rules, but I
thought that politics was a taboo subject.  If not, then this list will be
very much more interesting, but nowhere near as uplifting as I was hoping.

I really enjoy so many of your comments and appreciate your knowledge and
insight into so many aspects of what I am interested in, that I would not
want to make anything less than a friend of you.  I hope that you can accept
and respond to that.  And that you might feel the same way about me and my
posts, limited as I am in so much of what we discuss.

But please do not beat up on your neighbors to the south, because I, for
one, will naturally react to your diatribes.

Best wishes,

George


- Original Message -
From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?




George Cobabe wrote:

> Marc, rather than start another political yelling match with you about the
> USA and our policies, I will just say you are all screwed up and let it go
> at that.
>

Okay. But I never did any yelling. No one ever proved me wrong on the last
issue
about the role of spokespeople in the Westminster system. Let's remember
that two
claims were made by Jim, who started the thread by posting an article from
the
Toronto Star:

1) the comment about Bush being a "moron" was made publicly. I showed (as
did,
indeed, the article itself) that it wasn't public. I got a "so what" kind of
half-hearted acknowledgement from someone -- either Jim or Stephen, I can't
remember which -- but that's all.

2) the comment was made by a politician. As a civil servant in a
Westminster-style
government, I explained why she wasn't a politician. You will never see a
person
like Francie Ducros giving a public statement -- it's always the minister
who does
(we consider this one of the basics of "responsible government" which means
the
minister is the one who is responsible, and everything in his or her
department is
always done in his/her name; civil servants never issue statements or hold
press
conferences like they do in the U.S. I never got an acknowledgement that Jim
was
wrong in his assumption that the rest of the world acts like the U.S. in
this
regard).

But you're free to express an emotional opinion, as we all are.

>
> I am reminded of the old story of the Stallion and the horse fly.  The fly
> kept biting the horse but when it was all over the fly was still an
insect,
> and the horse was still a stallion.
>
> So keep biting at the USA if it makes you feel better as a Canadian, but
> remember what is true in the end.
>

You are being presumptuous about my motives, and you're wrong, too. But if
helps
you feel better to hold this belief about my motives, go for it.

>
> It is always easy to criticize when you are out of the loop and unable to
do
> anything about it.
>

I don't understand this comment. I believe I was *in* the loop on that
issue,
since I happen to have first-hand experience of the process involved.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

"Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will
pick
himself up and continue on" - Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's
employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.


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==^==

Re: [ZION] No biological basis for race

[Marc A. Schindler]

Stephen Beecroft wrote:

> -Marc-
> > A new study of Brazilians confirms what biologists have always
> > known (but maybe not anthropologists?): namely, that there is
> > no genetic basis for determining race:
> > 
><
>
> The study discussed in the article was performed on Brazilians, a highly
> racially-heterogenous group -- and on a very heterogenous subgroup of
> Brazilians, too. The study is ridiculous; it's like saying, "There is no
> such thing as dog breeds, because we went to the pound and found no
> strong correlation between the mongrels' supposed breed and their actual
> attributes". Totally bogus. I will bet that performing the same study
> between groups of Japanese, Norwegians, and Ethiopians would give the
> lie to the statement that "skin colour is a poor indication of
> ancestry."
>
> Besides, the concept of "race" consists of much more than skin color,
> despite the article's implication otherwise. Body build, height, facial
> features, hair color/texture/distribution, subcutaneous adipose
> preponderance -- all these are considered "racial features". While
> mentioned in the study, these are clearly relegated to the back seat, as
> evidenced by the article's opening line.
>

Actually they weren't. The author of the article doesn't mention them up front, but as 
Thomas Hudson from McGill University is quoted as saying, "'The physical traits of an 
individual -- especially skin pigmentation, hair colour, hair texture, and the shape 
of the lips and nose -- are constantly used for racial
categorization and thus play an extremely influential role in human social 
relationships," the authors write. Yet, they point out, "It is possible for two 
siblings differing in colour to belong to completely diverse racial categories' in 
Brazil."  He clearly equates the other physical features with colour as a
traditional designator of race.

>
> There very clearly is a "biological basis" for the characteristics we
> classify as race. It's called genetics. The statement that there is "no
> biological basis for race" is absurd on its face, and those that hold to
> it are either deeply ignorant or else have an axe to grind.
>

Can you show this from a scientific source? With all due respect, I don't think you 
know what you're talking about. Not meant as an attack -- I just want to see a 
contrary scientific view. This story isn't news -- it just adds to the pile. 
Geneticists have been saying this for a long time. Incidentally, not only do we
have nothing to fear from this, but in light of the Tom Murphy affair, this actually 
gives us ammunition. I'm using it in some apologetics work I'm doing regarding 
Murphy's review of DNA and Lamanites.

>
> It's one thing to say that current racial classifications are imprecise,
> or getting blurred, or not useful for this or that purpose. All such
> proclamations may or may not be true. But to say that race doesn't exist
> is to be tautologically incorrect

That's not what the article is saying, and it's not something I would claim, either, 
fwiw. The point is whether race is a sociological concept or a biological concept. 
Admitting it is social is not to say it doesn't exist -- you've either misinterpreted 
the paper or are making a logical error.

> -- people whose ancestry originated in
> different parts of the world look more like others with similar ancestry
> than they do like those with ancestry from other parts of the world. And
> children look like their parents, so to say that there is no biological
> basis for race is to play the fool.
>
> Stephen

"Play the fool" is not a scientific concept either ;-)

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick 
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; 
its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer, nor those of 
any organization with which the author may be associated.


--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[George Cobabe]

Marc suggests:
"If one feels the specific events of the American Revolution were inspired,
one
would also have to believe that the French Revolution was inspired, since it
laid
the groundwork for the American Revolution, and the intellectuals behind the
liberalism (in the traditional sense of the term) that arose in the Age of
Enlightenment, who set up the ideological structure for modern democracy,
were all
inspired by the French Revolution, imo. But I think that's history, not
religious
doctrine. IOW, I don't think it's an important distinction"

Hate to be picky Marc, but the French Revolution is generally thought to
have occurred between 1789 and 1799, sometime after the American Revolution.
You might recall the keys dates of 1776 and 1782 for America.  I think it
was the French following the American example.

I may not have understood your comment however, and I have been known to be
wrong about things like this.  You may be looking at the roots of the French
experience rather than the historical manifestation of the actual
revolutionary events.

And I have no problem with the idea that the French Revolution was inspired.

George




- Original Message -
From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 2:10 PM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21




"John W. Redelfs" wrote:

> Marc A. Schindler favored us with:
> >There's an interesting matter of interpretation here. Is "while" a
conditional
> >term here, or is it merely setting up the other party's side of the
> >covenant? And
> >if one party breaks the covenant, is the other party free to break it as
well?
>
> Obviously yes because we know from the Doctrine and Covenants that the
> Founding Fathers of the United States were inspired men raised up by God
to
> rebel against Britain.

It actually doesn't say this. See below.

> How do we reconcile that fact with the Twelfth
> Article of faith?  This is how I make the reconciliation.  Rebel against
> constituted authority but only when commanded by God to do so.

I know this is a common belief amongst US LDS, but I don't think it's the
only one
possible. The D&C does not mention the American Revolution, it says the
founding
fathers were inspired, but wrt the principles of the Constitution (see in
particular D&C 101:80; the interpretation regarding the Revolution is the
reference
to having redeemed the land by blood, but that's in a separate, independent
clause.
Here's the whole verse: "And for this purpose have I established the
Constitution
of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very
purpose, and
redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.."

I certainly believe the US is the "cradle of the restoration" and that the
*principles* of the US constitution are inspired (in other words, democratic
government and protection of civil rights, but not necessarily the exact
form of
the US republic per se). I think that's pretty solid. What might be a
cultural
addition is the assumption that everything in US history is therefore
inspired. I
think there's been a bit of mythologization going on, which isn't unique to
LDS in
the US -- think of the term "manifest destiny," which alludes to a divine
mission.
I think the Lord uses what happens to His own ends but He has lots of
options and
uses whatever situation presents itself. It's not that big of a difference,
actually, as I see it -- we agree in the end result, we might just differ in
how it
came about. After all, Canada didn't have a revolution, but that's almost
certainly
because Britain learned a lesson from the US situation, and allowed its
other
colonies to evolve independence and democracy as they were ready. I know you
think
we don't have the same freedoms you do, but in all fairness, I think that
boils
down to just one particular issue, which I'd rather not get into. Despite
the
differences in the outward forms, Canada (and many other countries -- most
industrialized countries) have taken the principles of the US Bill of Rights
and
applied them in their own democratization.

In fact, D&C 134:5 specifically prohibits rebellion and sedition. Whether
that's
unconditional or conditional depends on what you think the word "while"
means. I
understand from my brother, who served his mission in French Polynesia, that
members of an independence movement there, a movement which advocated the
use of
force, were threatened with excommunication. In contrast, you can be a
member of
the Parti Quebecois, which is separatist, without being in danger of losing
your
Church membership because the PQ does not promote violence to attain its
ends.

If one feels the specific events of the American Revolution were inspired,
one
would also have to believe that the French Revolution was inspired, since it
laid
the groundwork for the American Revolution, and the intellectuals behind the
liberalism (in the traditional sense of the term) that arose in the Age of
Enlightenment, who set up 

Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?

[Marc A. Schindler]

George Cobabe wrote:

> Marc, rather than start another political yelling match with you about the
> USA and our policies, I will just say you are all screwed up and let it go
> at that.
>

Okay. But I never did any yelling. No one ever proved me wrong on the last issue
about the role of spokespeople in the Westminster system. Let's remember that two
claims were made by Jim, who started the thread by posting an article from the
Toronto Star:

1) the comment about Bush being a "moron" was made publicly. I showed (as did,
indeed, the article itself) that it wasn't public. I got a "so what" kind of
half-hearted acknowledgement from someone -- either Jim or Stephen, I can't
remember which -- but that's all.

2) the comment was made by a politician. As a civil servant in a Westminster-style
government, I explained why she wasn't a politician. You will never see a person
like Francie Ducros giving a public statement -- it's always the minister who does
(we consider this one of the basics of "responsible government" which means the
minister is the one who is responsible, and everything in his or her department is
always done in his/her name; civil servants never issue statements or hold press
conferences like they do in the U.S. I never got an acknowledgement that Jim was
wrong in his assumption that the rest of the world acts like the U.S. in this
regard).

But you're free to express an emotional opinion, as we all are.

>
> I am reminded of the old story of the Stallion and the horse fly.  The fly
> kept biting the horse but when it was all over the fly was still an insect,
> and the horse was still a stallion.
>
> So keep biting at the USA if it makes you feel better as a Canadian, but
> remember what is true in the end.
>

You are being presumptuous about my motives, and you're wrong, too. But if helps
you feel better to hold this belief about my motives, go for it.

>
> It is always easy to criticize when you are out of the loop and unable to do
> anything about it.
>

I don't understand this comment. I believe I was *in* the loop on that issue,
since I happen to have first-hand experience of the process involved.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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RE: [ZION] No biological basis for race

[Stephen Beecroft]

-Marc-
> A new study of Brazilians confirms what biologists have always
> known (but maybe not anthropologists?): namely, that there is
> no genetic basis for determining race:
> 
><>
> 

The study discussed in the article was performed on Brazilians, a highly 
racially-heterogenous group -- and on a very heterogenous subgroup of 
Brazilians, too. The study is ridiculous; it's like saying, "There is no 
such thing as dog breeds, because we went to the pound and found no 
strong correlation between the mongrels' supposed breed and their actual 
attributes". Totally bogus. I will bet that performing the same study 
between groups of Japanese, Norwegians, and Ethiopians would give the 
lie to the statement that "skin colour is a poor indication of 
ancestry."

Besides, the concept of "race" consists of much more than skin color, 
despite the article's implication otherwise. Body build, height, facial 
features, hair color/texture/distribution, subcutaneous adipose 
preponderance -- all these are considered "racial features". While 
mentioned in the study, these are clearly relegated to the back seat, as 
evidenced by the article's opening line.

There very clearly is a "biological basis" for the characteristics we 
classify as race. It's called genetics. The statement that there is "no 
biological basis for race" is absurd on its face, and those that hold to 
it are either deeply ignorant or else have an axe to grind.

It's one thing to say that current racial classifications are imprecise, 
or getting blurred, or not useful for this or that purpose. All such 
proclamations may or may not be true. But to say that race doesn't exist 
is to be tautologically incorrect -- people whose ancestry originated in 
different parts of the world look more like others with similar ancestry 
than they do like those with ancestry from other parts of the world. And 
children look like their parents, so to say that there is no biological 
basis for race is to play the fool.

Stephen

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Re: [ZION] The Laughing Savior

[Marc A. Schindler]

I think we can assume so, but indirectly -- by the references to criticisms of him
by the Pharisees, for hanging out with "winebibbers," "publicans" and other
"sinners." I don't imagine such meals were always sombre ;-)

"John W. Redelfs" wrote:

> Did the Savior ever crack jokes like President Hinckley? Is there any
> scriptural indication that the Savior ever laughed or had a sense of
> humor?  Reading the Book of Mormon the other day, I realized the the
> scriptures, all of them, seem to be very somber, that is, there are no
> laughs.  What do you think?
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[Marc A. Schindler]

"John W. Redelfs" wrote:

> Marc A. Schindler favored us with:
> >There's an interesting matter of interpretation here. Is "while" a conditional
> >term here, or is it merely setting up the other party's side of the
> >covenant? And
> >if one party breaks the covenant, is the other party free to break it as well?
>
> Obviously yes because we know from the Doctrine and Covenants that the
> Founding Fathers of the United States were inspired men raised up by God to
> rebel against Britain.

It actually doesn't say this. See below.

> How do we reconcile that fact with the Twelfth
> Article of faith?  This is how I make the reconciliation.  Rebel against
> constituted authority but only when commanded by God to do so.

I know this is a common belief amongst US LDS, but I don't think it's the only one
possible. The D&C does not mention the American Revolution, it says the founding
fathers were inspired, but wrt the principles of the Constitution (see in
particular D&C 101:80; the interpretation regarding the Revolution is the reference
to having redeemed the land by blood, but that's in a separate, independent clause.
Here's the whole verse: "And for this purpose have I established the Constitution
of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and
redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.."

I certainly believe the US is the "cradle of the restoration" and that the
*principles* of the US constitution are inspired (in other words, democratic
government and protection of civil rights, but not necessarily the exact form of
the US republic per se). I think that's pretty solid. What might be a cultural
addition is the assumption that everything in US history is therefore inspired. I
think there's been a bit of mythologization going on, which isn't unique to LDS in
the US -- think of the term "manifest destiny," which alludes to a divine mission.
I think the Lord uses what happens to His own ends but He has lots of options and
uses whatever situation presents itself. It's not that big of a difference,
actually, as I see it -- we agree in the end result, we might just differ in how it
came about. After all, Canada didn't have a revolution, but that's almost certainly
because Britain learned a lesson from the US situation, and allowed its other
colonies to evolve independence and democracy as they were ready. I know you think
we don't have the same freedoms you do, but in all fairness, I think that boils
down to just one particular issue, which I'd rather not get into. Despite the
differences in the outward forms, Canada (and many other countries -- most
industrialized countries) have taken the principles of the US Bill of Rights and
applied them in their own democratization.

In fact, D&C 134:5 specifically prohibits rebellion and sedition. Whether that's
unconditional or conditional depends on what you think the word "while" means. I
understand from my brother, who served his mission in French Polynesia, that
members of an independence movement there, a movement which advocated the use of
force, were threatened with excommunication. In contrast, you can be a member of
the Parti Quebecois, which is separatist, without being in danger of losing your
Church membership because the PQ does not promote violence to attain its ends.

If one feels the specific events of the American Revolution were inspired, one
would also have to believe that the French Revolution was inspired, since it laid
the groundwork for the American Revolution, and the intellectuals behind the
liberalism (in the traditional sense of the term) that arose in the Age of
Enlightenment, who set up the ideological structure for modern democracy, were all
inspired by the French Revolution, imo. But I think that's history, not religious
doctrine. IOW, I don't think it's an important distinction.

Postscript:
Here's the entry from the EoM on "civil rights" [warning: it briefly mentions a
topic against the List Charter; I've indicated this by "[deleted]"]

Civil Rights

Civil rights are legal guarantees designed to protect persons from arbitrary or
discriminatory treatment. Common examples are those protecting freedom of speech,
freedom of worship, freedom of assembly, the right to due process of law, the right
to vote, the right to equal protection of the law, and safeguards for persons
accused of crime, such as the right against self-incrimination, the right to
confront one's accuser, the right to a jury trial, the right to counsel, and the
right to a speedy trial. These and other rights are declared in the Constitution of
the United States of America and in the constitutions of many other countries (see
-->Constitutional Law).

Civil rights are found in statutes as well as in constitutions and may provide, for
example, detailed guarantees against public and private discrimination on the basis
of such characteristics as race, gender, age, and religion. Civil rights issues
arise when people disagree about the rights that 

Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?

[George Cobabe]

Marc, rather than start another political yelling match with you about the
USA and our policies, I will just say you are all screwed up and let it go
at that.

I am reminded of the old story of the Stallion and the horse fly.  The fly
kept biting the horse but when it was all over the fly was still an insect,
and the horse was still a stallion.

So keep biting at the USA if it makes you feel better as a Canadian, but
remember what is true in the end.

It is always easy to criticize when you are out of the loop and unable to do
anything about it.

George

- Original Message -
From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 12:05 PM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?




Jon Spencer wrote:

> I have come to the conclusion that Marc was cheated by the Pakistani owner
> of a convenience store in his neck of the woods!  :-)  Marc, while I agree
> that Pakistan is not the country to model our society after and that there
> are many distinct factions operating within the government, often at odds
> with each other, do you believe that there are any other bad guys out
there
> (other than Bush, I mean :-).
>

Sure, and I don't mean to pick on Pakistan. My point was to show what I felt
was
hypocrisy on the part of US foreign policy (such as there ever is a
consensus on
such a matter); for every reason they stated to invade Iraq, I felt the same
reason applied in spades to Pakistan. Naturally I don't want anyone invading
Pakistan. I would rather you keep your weapons of mass destruction at home.

> If we limited out allies to only those who were just like us, we would
have
> very few allies indeed.  We partnered with Stalin in WWII because (being
> VERY generous) we felt that to do otherwise would seriously hamper our war
> efforts.  Having someone as a temporary ally does not mean that you
condone
> their behavior.  Rather it means that you are usually between a rock and a
> hard place, and you may want to deny your adversary that country as his
> ally.
>

The partnership with Stalin is one thing, but there is a formalized system
of
military alliances in place now. You may have heard of it: NATO. I think
that's
what's usually meant by "our Allies" the way Bush uses the term (although
I'm sure
he'd add in countries like Australia and Japan). The problem is the natural
expectation that the EU, Turkey, Canada, Japan and Australia (plus a few
others)
would automatically be expected to see US foreign policy as *our* foreign
policy,
and it just ain't so. The world's not that simple. We get spoofed a lot for
our
small armed forces (although mind you, we keep kickin' butt at the annual
Top Gun
fighter games, and at least we don't kill our allies in Afghanistan...) but
this
is one situation where you can't just apply the 1:10 rule that often
applies. That
is, we have one tenth the population, so when comparing stats, you can
usually be
safe by dividing US stats by 10, or conversely multiplying Canadian stats by
10,
for a comparison. And this works in many comparisons. But it doesn't work in
military forces because we're not a superpower and don't consider ourselves
morally obliged to intervene unilaterally in other peoples' affairs (almost
all
our military efforts have been dedicated to providing UN peacekeeping forces
and
NORAD).

Which reminds me. I'm bcc'ing a fellow I know on LDS-Poll (I'm no longer
there
because I went through a particularly severe dip in my health that I'm only
now
starting to come out of, so cut back on my Internet activity) who criticized
Canada for not keeping up to its NORAD commitment. He was referring to the
proposed continental missile shield. And this illustrates my point
precisely: the
missile shield is *proposed*, it is not yet NORAD policy, but many
USAmericans
naturally assume we'll agree to anything they propose. From what reading
I've
done, the Brits used to have this problem, and the French before them, and
the
Romans, and so on and so on: a very self-centred view of the world. Now
every
nation ought to operate from its own best interests, and if we had the
economy,
population and military might of the US, we'd almost certainly act in the
very
same way, and the quasi-imperium Pax Americana is a lot more benign than its
predecessors. But it is still a quasi-imperialist point of view by its very
nature.

>
> I would hazard to guess that we both believe that you prioritize your
> problems and work from the top down.  Perhaps it is the case that you have
a
> different prioritized list than do I.  However, I think that Afghanistan
and
> Iraq and North Korea are higher on the list than is Pakistan, which, by
the
> way, is pretty high up on my list.
>

The problem is that the list is forever changing, and by assigning national
names
like "Afghanistan" we fool ourselves. This is not about a clash of nation
states,
something which isn't part of the Middle Eastern self-image, or
Weltanschauung,
either, for that matter (outwards-

RE: [ZION] Just finished reading....

[Larry Jackson]

Stacy Smith:

Any way to get Utah by sound only cheaper?  
I'm trying to find out the cheapest way to do it.

___

Try www.kbyu.org -- I think they have an audio feed you could 
listen to on your pc, if you really wanted to do that.

Many other radio stations in Utah also have streaming internet feeds.

Larry Jackson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]







Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com

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[ZION] Tobacco interests lose a big one in Canada; LDS involvement

[Marc A. Schindler]

Forwarded with permission from Ken Kyle, who is LDS and works at the
Canadian Cancer Society, as director of public issues. The first item is
a recent newspaper article, the second some background from Ken on his
involvement with this. The Church News has been in contact with him
about possibly doing a story on this.

Court rejects tobacco industry challenge of federal advertising law

 DONALD MCKENZIE
 Canadian Press

Friday, December 13, 2002

MONTREAL (CP) - Canada's anti-tobacco lobby urged the federal government
on Friday to crack down even further on cigarette manufacturers after a
judge dismissed an industry challenge of the Tobacco Act governing
advertising.

Canada's three main tobacco companies argued the law forcing them to put
warning labels on cigarette packages is unconstitutional because it
unfairly limits their right to do business and market a legal product.
But Quebec Superior Court Justice Andre Denis rejected their view,
noting in his ruling that cigarettes kill 45,000 Canadians a year.

"They (tobacco companies) are trying to save an industry in inevitable
decline and they have every right to do so," Denis wrote.

"Their rights, however, cannot be given the same legitimacy as the
government's to protect public health."

The law also bans tobacco advertising in broadcast outlets, billboards,
street kiosks, bus panels and store displays.

Anti-tobacco officials were ecstatic with Friday's ruling.

"It's just dynamite, dynamite," said Francois Damphousse, director of
the Quebec office of the Non-Smokers' Rights Association.

"It's a tremendous ruling because the judge has recognized that tobacco
is a major, major public health problem."

Donald McCarty, a vice-president at Imperial Tobacco Canada Ltd., said
the industry  was disappointed with the decision. He hinted at an appeal
but also said negotiations with the federal government would help avoid
years of legal wrangling.

The judge also criticized the tobacco companies for using terms such as
"light" on their cigarette packages.

Rob Cunningham, a spokesman for the Canadian Cancer Society, called on
Ottawa to seize the momentum created by the ruling and amend the law to
eliminate prominent retail displays of tobacco products as well as what
he called "deceptive" descriptions such as "light" and "mild."

Alex Swann, a spokesman for Health Minister Anne McLellan, said the
department was pleased with the decision and that the minister is
looking at the "light" and "mild" issue.

"The health minister will continue to look at possible measures that
would be effective in fighting the problem of tobacco," Swann said from
Ottawa.

"On the light and mild issue specifically, the minister is examining
options."

McCarty, who was also speaking on behalf of Rothmans, Benson and Hedges
Inc. and JTI-Macdonald Corp., said the companies agree that tobacco
should be regulated.

"We need to say that those regulations need to be reasonable," McCarty
said.

"The industry has always said that there are clearly serious risks
associated with tobacco use. But tobacco is not the only product widely
used in society that has risks attached to it. Recently in the United
States, they've decided that obesity is now the No. 1 health problem
there."

Cunningham also said Denis upheld a ban on tobacco sponsorships of
sports and cultural events. The ban takes effect next Oct. 1.

"This is a massive and total victory for public health in Canada today,"
Cunningham said. "In historic terms, the tobacco industry has never been
criticized to the extent that it has in this judgment."

The case began last January.

===

Mark -- Here is some background on the court decision last Friday, as
you requested.

Since 1986 I have been Director of Public Issues for the Canadian Cancer
Society (CCS) in Ottawa, Canada, reporting to our CEO at CCS
headquarters in Toronto. This means I have been responsible for the
CCS's lobbying and government relations activities to convince the
Parliament of Canada, among other issues, to pass laws preventing
cancer. (One of my projects a few years ago, for example, was to
Co-Chair the international Smoke Free Skies campaign which organized
public health and civil aviation authorities in many countries to
successfully lobby the International Civil Aviation Authority (one of
the United Nations family of organizations) to pass a resolution in 1992
banning smoking on international commercial flights.)

In 1987 I worked with a few other individuals from other health groups
and successfully lobbied Parliament to ban tobacco advertising in Canada
in 1998. There was then a five year marathon battle in the courts after
the tobacco industry challenged the constitutionality of these
provisions.  We
eventually lost 5 - 4 at the Supreme Court of Canada in 1995.  But the
Supreme Court provided guidance for new legislation.

I then headed up the CCS's efforts to work with other health groups to
successfully lobby for replacement legislation - the

[ZION] The Laughing Savior

[John W. Redelfs]

Did the Savior ever crack jokes like President Hinckley? Is there any 
scriptural indication that the Savior ever laughed or had a sense of 
humor?  Reading the Book of Mormon the other day, I realized the the 
scriptures, all of them, seem to be very somber, that is, there are no 
laughs.  What do you think?

John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
At present, the Book of Mormon is studied in our Sunday
School and seminary classes every fourth year. This
four-year pattern, however, must not be followed by
Church members in their personal and family study. We
need to read daily from the pages of the book that will get
a man "nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by
any other book." (Ezra Taft Benson, October 1988)
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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RE: [ZION] Banning motorcycles

[John W. Redelfs]

Elmer L. Fairbank favored us with:

Even Till has taken a tumble once, from a Norton.  There was this rock in 
the road which he smuck amidships at 60.  The rest is subject to some 
pretty vivid imagining.  HE thinks rocks are dangerous (not to mention 
young men).

Three times in my life I've been on a motorcycle, and I've never had a 
spill.  Once on a 150cc Honda in 1963, again on a somewhat larger Honda in 
1966, and lastly on a 250cc once cylinder thumper in 1968.  Since then I 
have avoided motorcycles because I don't want to die.  My dad was an 
anesthesiologist and spent much of his career in the operating room.  He 
saw a lot of motorcycle accident victims, and he called them murder cycles, 
not motorcycles.  Since I can't seem to avoid crashing my car, I thought it 
foolish for me to trust my bad luck on a motorcycle.

Still, I have fantasies of a Harley Hog going clear back to when I was 16 
and still riding bicycles.


John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
"Atheistic humanism is the opiate of the self-described
intellectuals" --Uncle Bob
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[John W. Redelfs]

Marc A. Schindler favored us with:

There's an interesting matter of interpretation here. Is "while" a conditional
term here, or is it merely setting up the other party's side of the 
covenant? And
if one party breaks the covenant, is the other party free to break it as well?

Obviously yes because we know from the Doctrine and Covenants that the 
Founding Fathers of the United States were inspired men raised up by God to 
rebel against Britain.  How do we reconcile that fact with the Twelfth 
Article of faith?  This is how I make the reconciliation.  Rebel against 
constituted authority but only when commanded by God to do so.


John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
At present, the Book of Mormon is studied in our Sunday
School and seminary classes every fourth year. This
four-year pattern, however, must not be followed by
Church members in their personal and family study. We
need to read daily from the pages of the book that will get
a man "nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by
any other book." (Ezra Taft Benson, October 1988)
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[John W. Redelfs]

Stacy Smith favored us with:

What's this other list and why not have the same screening questionnaire?


The Moroni list is for Birchers and the like.  I had to set it up to keep 
from driving most of my best contributors from this list. --JWR

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Re: [ZION] "heck" ain't cussin

[John W. Redelfs]

George Cobabe favored us with:

The problem is that the doctrine of the trinity is so convoluted we cannot
if discuss it without being subject to the same requirements of confusion
and misunderstanding.

Not much simpler is it?


I think I got it the second time around.  Still, conceptually it is a 
little above my head, like something that Dennis Potter might write.  For 
me it is enough to know that the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, which is 
nonsense, is just a corrupted form of the doctrine we believe in that there 
is a Godhead comprised of an individual Father, an individual Son, and an 
individual Holy Ghost.  I believe that the doctrine of reincarnation which 
is believed in many of the eastern religions is just an apostate version of 
the true doctrine of resurrection.


John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
"...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest" --Joseph
Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248
***
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?

[John W. Redelfs]

Jon Spencer favored us with:

First off, this probably belongs on lds-poll.  And second, if you can even
seriously entertain such ideas, it either says a Lott about you or a Lott
about the country.  Of course, it could be that my not being able to
SERIOUSLY entertain such ideas may say a Lott about me!


Last I looked the list charter said we are to discuss "life, the universe, 
and everything" with a few topical restrictions.  Therefore, the Zion list 
is an appropriate forum for political discussion as long as it doesn't get 
into areas such as sexual perversion, feminism, abortion, or melt down the 
list with bad feelings.

Anyway, I didn't say Bush was behind the opium distribution, I just said 
that many on the right believe he was.  I simply don't know, although it 
wouldn't surprise me to find out that he was.  Power corrupts, and absolute 
power corrupts absolutely.


John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED]
=
To me, clowns aren't funny.  In fact, they're kind of scary.
I've wondered where this started and I think it goes back to
the time I went to the circus, and a clown killed my dad.
--Jack Handy
=
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?

[Marc A. Schindler]

The joke going around during Gulf War I, if I can call it that, was: "what movie
has been banned by Saddam Hussein? Iraqnophobia, of course." ("Arachnophobia," a
horror flick involving spiders, was in the movie theatres about that time).

Stacy Smith wrote:

> You should have said we are between Iraq and a hard place.  Lol.
>
> Stacy.
>
> At 10:15 AM 12/17/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >I have come to the conclusion that Marc was cheated by the Pakistani owner
> >of a convenience store in his neck of the woods!  :-)  Marc, while I agree
> >that Pakistan is not the country to model our society after and that there
> >are many distinct factions operating within the government, often at odds
> >with each other, do you believe that there are any other bad guys out there
> >(other than Bush, I mean :-).
> >
> >If we limited out allies to only those who were just like us, we would have
> >very few allies indeed.  We partnered with Stalin in WWII because (being
> >VERY generous) we felt that to do otherwise would seriously hamper our war
> >efforts.  Having someone as a temporary ally does not mean that you condone
> >their behavior.  Rather it means that you are usually between a rock and a
> >hard place, and you may want to deny your adversary that country as his
> >ally.
> >
> >I would hazard to guess that we both believe that you prioritize your
> >problems and work from the top down.  Perhaps it is the case that you have a
> >different prioritized list than do I.  However, I think that Afghanistan and
> >Iraq and North Korea are higher on the list than is Pakistan, which, by the
> >way, is pretty high up on my list.
> >
> >And then, of course, you bring up a very interesting Libertarian argument
> >about free markets and opium (note I didn't say you put it forward).  I
> >honestly would be very interested in your elaborating on this topic.
> >
> >Jon
> >
> >Marc A. Schindler wrote:
> >
> >I don't think it matters (to me, anyway) whether it was deliberate or not.
> >The
> >people in central and SW Afghanistan in particular have little choice, as
> >there is
> >no economic alternative for them. One could just as easily say this is the
> >"free
> >market" at work without the help of the CIA. I *do* believe, however, that
> >the ISI
> >(Pakistan's counterpart) was behind it for reasons of their own.
> >
> >//
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >---
> >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> >Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002
>
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>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer, nor
those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] NOMA: A Contrarian view

[Marc A. Schindler]

Mark Gregson wrote:

>
> > NOMA is also very similar to what the 1P said in 1931 in the last official
> > statement on the origin of man: leave science to the scientists and religion to
> > the Brethren. So be careful of criticizing it just because it was written by an
> > agnostic.
>
> This is probably not the time to try this again, but not being known for great 
>reasonableness and consistency, I'll try it anyway:
>
> Marc, what is God's view of science and religion?  Does He separate the two?

His servants seem to. From the 1931 statement: [Heber J. Grant presidency]

"Upon the fundamental doctrines of the Church we are all agreed. Our mission is to 
bear the message of the restored gospel to the world. Leave geology,  biology, 
archaeology, and anthropology, no one of which has to do with the salvation of the 
souls of mankind, to scientific research, while we magnify our   calling in the realm 
of the Church…"

For more on the general topic of science and religion in Mormonism, I'd suggest the 
article by that name in the EoM: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/A/eyring_1_8.htm

> Does He sort of have a science hat and a religion hat that He puts on as appropriate?
>

No, but that's not the question I was raising. Both science and religion are man-made 
terms for concepts, and I would suggest God is above both of them. I think what many 
people get uneasy over is how to draw a distinction between the activity, or 
discipline, of science as a human activity, and "natural philosophy," the old, 
pre-scientific name for looking at the physical world in a physical way. One of the 
first things Man was commanded to do was to name the animals, and we've been 
categorizing ever since.

>
> Of course, these questions are rhetorical, but I don't recall ever getting a 
>straight answer from you on them.  If you have answered and I've simply forgotten, 
>would you mind refreshing my memory?
>

Hope the above helps.

>
> The point that I and others on this list have tried to make to you but have 
>seemingly failed to do is that with God all truth is one.  There is absolutely no 
>dividing line with "this kind of truth over here" and "that kind of truth over 
>there".  Granted, there are more important and less important truths for us here in 
>this life, but even so, while the Book of Mormon is indispensible, so is the law of 
>gravity.  So it's all one with God.  The concept of non-overlapping magesteria has no 
>place with God.  His knowledge embraces it all.  And that's why some of us on this 
>list don't care much for the notion of NOMA.
>

But we're not on God's plane, so while in this telestial sphere, NOMA, or the 1931 
statement, which amounts to the same thing, will have to suffice, as in so many other 
affairs.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick 
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; 
its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer, nor those of 
any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?

[Marc A. Schindler]

Doh! The character you're thinking of isn't Pakistani. He can't be, since he's
Hindu.

Ya can't hit the targets if ya can't see 'em

Jim Cobabe wrote:

> Jon Spencer wrote:
> ---
> I have come to the conclusion that Marc was cheated by the Pakistani
> owner of a convenience store in his neck of the woods!  :-)
> ---
>
> Sounds like a Simpsons episode.
>
> Come to think of it, perhaps we could draw some interesting and
> instructive parallels between Homer and his Canadian
> counterpart-apparent.  :-0
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
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Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?

[Marc A. Schindler]

Jon Spencer wrote:

> I have come to the conclusion that Marc was cheated by the Pakistani owner
> of a convenience store in his neck of the woods!  :-)  Marc, while I agree
> that Pakistan is not the country to model our society after and that there
> are many distinct factions operating within the government, often at odds
> with each other, do you believe that there are any other bad guys out there
> (other than Bush, I mean :-).
>

Sure, and I don't mean to pick on Pakistan. My point was to show what I felt was
hypocrisy on the part of US foreign policy (such as there ever is a consensus on
such a matter); for every reason they stated to invade Iraq, I felt the same
reason applied in spades to Pakistan. Naturally I don't want anyone invading
Pakistan. I would rather you keep your weapons of mass destruction at home.

> If we limited out allies to only those who were just like us, we would have
> very few allies indeed.  We partnered with Stalin in WWII because (being
> VERY generous) we felt that to do otherwise would seriously hamper our war
> efforts.  Having someone as a temporary ally does not mean that you condone
> their behavior.  Rather it means that you are usually between a rock and a
> hard place, and you may want to deny your adversary that country as his
> ally.
>

The partnership with Stalin is one thing, but there is a formalized system of
military alliances in place now. You may have heard of it: NATO. I think that's
what's usually meant by "our Allies" the way Bush uses the term (although I'm sure
he'd add in countries like Australia and Japan). The problem is the natural
expectation that the EU, Turkey, Canada, Japan and Australia (plus a few others)
would automatically be expected to see US foreign policy as *our* foreign policy,
and it just ain't so. The world's not that simple. We get spoofed a lot for our
small armed forces (although mind you, we keep kickin' butt at the annual Top Gun
fighter games, and at least we don't kill our allies in Afghanistan...) but this
is one situation where you can't just apply the 1:10 rule that often applies. That
is, we have one tenth the population, so when comparing stats, you can usually be
safe by dividing US stats by 10, or conversely multiplying Canadian stats by 10,
for a comparison. And this works in many comparisons. But it doesn't work in
military forces because we're not a superpower and don't consider ourselves
morally obliged to intervene unilaterally in other peoples' affairs (almost all
our military efforts have been dedicated to providing UN peacekeeping forces and
NORAD).

Which reminds me. I'm bcc'ing a fellow I know on LDS-Poll (I'm no longer there
because I went through a particularly severe dip in my health that I'm only now
starting to come out of, so cut back on my Internet activity) who criticized
Canada for not keeping up to its NORAD commitment. He was referring to the
proposed continental missile shield. And this illustrates my point precisely: the
missile shield is *proposed*, it is not yet NORAD policy, but many USAmericans
naturally assume we'll agree to anything they propose. From what reading I've
done, the Brits used to have this problem, and the French before them, and the
Romans, and so on and so on: a very self-centred view of the world. Now every
nation ought to operate from its own best interests, and if we had the economy,
population and military might of the US, we'd almost certainly act in the very
same way, and the quasi-imperium Pax Americana is a lot more benign than its
predecessors. But it is still a quasi-imperialist point of view by its very
nature.

>
> I would hazard to guess that we both believe that you prioritize your
> problems and work from the top down.  Perhaps it is the case that you have a
> different prioritized list than do I.  However, I think that Afghanistan and
> Iraq and North Korea are higher on the list than is Pakistan, which, by the
> way, is pretty high up on my list.
>

The problem is that the list is forever changing, and by assigning national names
like "Afghanistan" we fool ourselves. This is not about a clash of nation states,
something which isn't part of the Middle Eastern self-image, or Weltanschauung,
either, for that matter (outwards-looking view on the world). When I would travel
to the Middle East and would ask a member of the elite (like the business people
and educated people that I dealt with) what their nationality was, they'd say
"Egyptian," "Libyan," "Lebanese" etc. But when I asked the guy who shined my shoes
what his nationality was, he'd say "Arab."

Until we realize that the nation state is a product of the industrial revolution,
drawing lines on maps and artificially carving out nation states in a
pre-industrial region (by and large) will just cause problems. Every imperial
power that has intervened in the region has come away chastened, and the USA (with
its allies) will be no different. You think WTC was bad? Just wait[sorry to be
a Cassandra, but

[ZION] No biological basis for race

[Marc A. Schindler]

A new study of Brazilians confirms what biologists have always known
(but maybe not anthropologists?): namely, that there is no genetic basis
for determining race:
<>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he
will pick himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
author’s employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
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Re: [ZION] trinitarianism

[Marc A. Schindler]

No, you'll have the content -- it's just the endnotes and some of the formatting
that's messed up. Also, I spelled "homoousis" and "homoiousis" the same in Greek;
the latter should have an iota between the two omicrons. Minor stuff like that.

Jon Spencer wrote:

> Bummer!  I just printed it off to read.  I assume that the content won't
> change, so I'll try to save some trees.
>
> Jon
>
> Marc A. Schindler wrote:
>
> I can't find the email where I gave the link to the article on
> trinitarianism on my website, but I went to the site, and found that the
> article isn't in very good shape (the formatting is inconsistent and the
> footnotes are all messed up). So if you wait a few days I'll try to whip
> it into better shape.
>
> //
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> /
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Teaching Correct Principles

[Dan R Allen]

Gary:
BTW, anyone else feel that Trent Lott should step down as Majority
Leader? I've disliked him since he first got into that job. There are
many decent Senators that would do a much better job, without looking
like he just took off his white hood.

Dan:
I think that it's reasonable that he should be made to step down, but to
force it now is the absolute worse timing. If he leaves now, then the
Democrats will use it to their advantage and paint all Republicans with the
racist brush (nevermind their own hypocritical record), but if they wait a
while and perhaps point out some of the hypocrisy they will be in better
shape in the long run.

K'aya K'ama,
Gerald/gary  Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www
.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html
"No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free."  -
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe


John:
> Gary, there are no nonmembers on this list.  I don't need to worry
about
>
> converting the Lamanites here regardless of my manner of stating the
> truth.  Obviously I wouldn't say these things in a mixed audience, but
I
>
> shouldn't have any problem getting agreement from other Latter-day
> Saints.  I guess there is just something about my manner that provokes
> opposition even when I am speaking the truth.



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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[Stacy Smith]

A very interesting point worth considering.  We're also sending them out as 
well.

Stacy.

At 09:34 AM 12/17/2002 -0500, you wrote:

I get three "A"'s.

We have been given intellectual gifts to employ.  The word employ here is
very important, for it means that we must work at figuring things out, at
overcoming our natural man instincts.  We may be of the fold, but we are not
sheep.

In determining the ability of a country's government to "hold[ing] sacred
the freedom of conscience," I use the measure of whether or not there are
missionaries in that country.  If there are not, then it is clear that,
notwithstanding some special agreement between the Church and the government
such as in Israel, that government is subject to serious review by its
populace.

Since I just went on an exchange with our missionaries, and since we just
had more than 100 missionaries visit the store while on their semi-annual
trip to the temple, I think that the US is OK for at least another year or
two.

Jon

- Original Message -
From: "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 10:02 PM
Subject: RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21


> Jim Cobabe favored us with:
> >"Church members who seek to use LDS doctrine as a basis for concluding
> >that government infringements on inalienable rights have excused them
> >from obeying the law seem to have forgotten the principle of following
> >the prophets. Until the prophets invoke this principle, faithful members
> >will also refrain from doing so. We remain committed to uphold our
> >governments and to obey their laws." (Dallin H. Oaks, "Some
> >Responsibilities of Citizenship", BYU Marriott Center, July 3, 1994)
>
> Following this same train of thought, here are questions 7-9 in the
> screening questionnaire I use for my Moroni list:
>
> 7. I believe the Twelfth Article of Faith: "We believe in being subject to
> kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and
> sustaining the law."
> A. Strongly agree
> B. Agree
> C. Don't know
> D. Disagree
> F. Strongly disagree
>
> 8. But I also believe D&C 134:5 which reads: "We believe that all men are
> bound to sustain and uphold the respective governments in which they
> reside, WHILE PROTECTED IN THEIR INHERENT AND INALIENABLE
> RIGHTS, by the laws of such governments; and that sedition and rebellion
are
> unbecoming every citizen thus protected, and should be punished
accordingly;
> and that all governments have a right to enact such laws as in their own
> judgments are best calculated to secure the public interest; at the same
time,
> however, holding sacred the freedom of conscience."
> A. Strongly agree
> B. Agree
> C. Don't know
> D. Disagree
> F. Strongly disagree
>
> 9. However, when these two are in apparent contradiction, I believe that
it
> is the Priesthood led by the President of the Church, rather than the
> individual that makes the final determination as to which principle is
> supreme at any given moment. A saint does not take the law into his own
> hands.
> A. Strongly agree
> B. Agree
> C. Don't know
> D. Disagree
> F. Strongly disagree
>
> John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ===
> "Atheistic humanism is the opiate of the self-described
> intellectuals" --Uncle Bob
> ===
> All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
>
>

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Re: [ZION] New guy

[Stacy Smith]

That's probably a very good guy and not the one I'm referring to.  I know 
of two Wrights, one I would love to see again and one I wish to forget.

Stacy.

At 09:41 AM 12/17/2002 -0500, you wrote:

We have a Brother Wright in our ward.  He is a Special Forces sniper.

Could he help out here?

Jon

Stacy Smith wrote:

> Just so long as that other guy named Wright doesn't come along.  Well, I'm
> sure you'll look out for him.  He might be trouble.
>
> Stacy.
>
> At 09:16 PM 12/16/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>
> >Hi George,
> >
> >I'm glad you came to the Zion list. I have enjoyed your postings at FAIR.
> >I'm sure you will find the Zion list to be a place of refuge. Sometimes
> >we argue a little but we learn so much. This is a list where members
> >really care about each other. I've only been here a couple years and they
> >haven't thrown me out yet. 
> >
> >Again, welcome.
> >
> >Paul O
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> >Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
> >Only $9.95 per month!
> >Visit www.juno.com
> >
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RE: [ZION] New guy

[Chet]

Stacy Smith wrote:
> Luckily even the other list I'm on doesn't have this guy.  Not yet, 
> anyway.  Can a person really protect herself on the internet?  An 
> ex-boyfriend even found me on a certain list.  I'm beginning to think 
> that 
> if I don't want to be found by certain people I shouldn't be on any 
> lists 
> at all.

You can, of course, limit the amount of information you provide to lists 
-- such as your real name, etc.  But the internet just makes a little 
easier what's been true since at least the 1960s, and that's that there 
is no true privacy anymore.  The only hope for privacy is that there is 
so MUCH information available that one's individual data becomes 
difficult to sort out from the surrounding "white noise."

We now view old movies and certain TV shows such as *the Fugitive* as 
charming, and remember when one could get a job and rent a home without 
severe background checks.


*jeep!
  --Chet
"Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you 
are doing the impossible."

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RE: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal

[Chet]

Stacy Smith wrote:
> Can I call from out of state?

I did.  The human answering the line after you press "2" (they were 
getting more calls than their computer could handle, I guess) did ask me 
if I was calling from out of state - and from where.


*jeep!
  --Chet
"Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you 
are doing the impossible."

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RE: [ZION] New guy

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 17:53 12/17/2002 +, Sir Chester wrote:


You proceed from a false assumption.  A football doesn't HAVE feathers.




Certainly not in the same respect that horses and gophers do.


Till who used to hate gopher feathers in his orange juice when he was a 
little tyke

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RE: [ZION] New guy

[Chet]

Stacy Smith wrote:
> Yes, I like those funny jokes too.  

As opposed to the jokes I usually tell.


*jeep!
  --Chet
"Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you 
are doing the impossible."

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RE: [ZION] New guy

[Chet]

George Cobabe wrote:
> You are saying WHAT is right?  I thought Wright was wrong?
> 
> If Wright is What, then who is wrong?
> 
> Is that right, or is George wrong?  And if that is the case it will be
> necessary to start all over again.  Could that be right, wright. or 
> wrong?

You proceed from a false assumption.  A football doesn't HAVE feathers.


*jeep!
  --Chet
"Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you 
are doing the impossible."

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Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?

[Stacy Smith]

You should have said we are between Iraq and a hard place.  Lol.

Stacy.

At 10:15 AM 12/17/2002 -0500, you wrote:


I have come to the conclusion that Marc was cheated by the Pakistani owner
of a convenience store in his neck of the woods!  :-)  Marc, while I agree
that Pakistan is not the country to model our society after and that there
are many distinct factions operating within the government, often at odds
with each other, do you believe that there are any other bad guys out there
(other than Bush, I mean :-).

If we limited out allies to only those who were just like us, we would have
very few allies indeed.  We partnered with Stalin in WWII because (being
VERY generous) we felt that to do otherwise would seriously hamper our war
efforts.  Having someone as a temporary ally does not mean that you condone
their behavior.  Rather it means that you are usually between a rock and a
hard place, and you may want to deny your adversary that country as his
ally.

I would hazard to guess that we both believe that you prioritize your
problems and work from the top down.  Perhaps it is the case that you have a
different prioritized list than do I.  However, I think that Afghanistan and
Iraq and North Korea are higher on the list than is Pakistan, which, by the
way, is pretty high up on my list.

And then, of course, you bring up a very interesting Libertarian argument
about free markets and opium (note I didn't say you put it forward).  I
honestly would be very interested in your elaborating on this topic.

Jon

Marc A. Schindler wrote:

I don't think it matters (to me, anyway) whether it was deliberate or not.
The
people in central and SW Afghanistan in particular have little choice, as
there is
no economic alternative for them. One could just as easily say this is the
"free
market" at work without the help of the CIA. I *do* believe, however, that
the ISI
(Pakistan's counterpart) was behind it for reasons of their own.

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Re: [ZION] Just finished reading....

[Stacy Smith]

Any way to get Utah by sound only cheaper?  I'm trying to find out the 
cheapest way to do it.

Stacy.

At 11:21 AM 12/17/2002 -0400, you wrote:

Shortly after we moved into our new home a year and a half ago, Dish
Network had a deal where you paid $199 for the dish and receiver, and got
basic 100 channel programming for $19/month for a year. This was a good
deal, and we took them up on it. This last summer, the price per month
went up. There is one good reason we have kept it. That is the BYU
channel. We watched confrence, the First Presidency's Christmas address,
and more on it. Great great stuff!

Scott

On Mon, 16 Dec 2002 17:42:15 -0900, "John W. Redelfs"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> Gary Smith favored us with:
> >People rarely gain revelation from watching tv shows, regardless of how
> >exciting or neat they are. But when we concentrate in the spiritual
> >realm, we attune ourselves to the spiritual things. For me, their words
> >are great, but even greater is the spiritual insight I gain.
>
> Here in Alaska we can tune our dish to receive BYU TV.  In that case, we
> get a constant flood of light and truth into our home, past conference
> talks, forum assemblies, BYU speeches of the year, Women's conference,
> BYU
> education week, etc.  It isn't the medium that corrupts but the message.
>
>
> John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***
> "...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest" --Joseph
> Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248
> ***
> All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
>
> 
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down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own?
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RE: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal

[Chet]

John W. Redelfs wrote:

> Where are you Orrin Porter Rockwell, now that we need you?  --JWR

There's a one-panel cartoon which sums up my weaknesses.  A fellow is 
saying "I thought - what would Jesus do? And I tried to forgive him.  
Then I thought - what would Porter Rockwell do?  And I punched his face 
in."

*jeep!
  --Chet
"Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you 
are doing the impossible."

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Re: [ZION] NOMA: A Contrarian view

[George Cobabe]

Mark - I tried it as well on another list -  it will not work.  Your concept
makes too much sense for someone imbued with science to accept.

George
- Original Message -
From: "Mark Gregson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 9:17 AM
Subject: Re: [ZION] NOMA: A Contrarian view


>
> > NOMA is also very similar to what the 1P said in 1931 in the last
official
> > statement on the origin of man: leave science to the scientists and
religion to
> > the Brethren. So be careful of criticizing it just because it was
written by an
> > agnostic.
>
> This is probably not the time to try this again, but not being known for
great reasonableness and consistency, I'll try it anyway:
>
> Marc, what is God's view of science and religion?  Does He separate the
two?  Does He sort of have a science hat and a religion hat that He puts on
as appropriate?
>
> Of course, these questions are rhetorical, but I don't recall ever getting
a straight answer from you on them.  If you have answered and I've simply
forgotten, would you mind refreshing my memory?
>
> The point that I and others on this list have tried to make to you but
have seemingly failed to do is that with God all truth is one.  There is
absolutely no dividing line with "this kind of truth over here" and "that
kind of truth over there".  Granted, there are more important and less
important truths for us here in this life, but even so, while the Book of
Mormon is indispensible, so is the law of gravity.  So it's all one with
God.  The concept of non-overlapping magesteria has no place with God.  His
knowledge embraces it all.  And that's why some of us on this list don't
care much for the notion of NOMA.
>
> =  Mark Gregson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  =
>
>
> --
> ___
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Re: [ZION] LOTR

[Mark Gregson]

 Spoiler warning











> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gary: Actually, his friend was Shelob the spider.

I wouldn't call Shelob his friend.  More like his master. 

  
> Gary: Actually, there are three known. The Steward of Gondor also has
> one, which falls into the plot of the ensuing movies.  

Are you sure about that?  I'm pretty sure that the Steward's palantir is not made 
known to Gandalf until The Return of the King.  So while it was known to the Steward, 
it wasn't generally known, which is how I took your question.

=  Mark Gregson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  =

   
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Re: [ZION] NOMA: A Contrarian view

[Mark Gregson]

> NOMA is also very similar to what the 1P said in 1931 in the last official
> statement on the origin of man: leave science to the scientists and religion to
> the Brethren. So be careful of criticizing it just because it was written by an
> agnostic.

This is probably not the time to try this again, but not being known for great 
reasonableness and consistency, I'll try it anyway:

Marc, what is God's view of science and religion?  Does He separate the two?  Does He 
sort of have a science hat and a religion hat that He puts on as appropriate?

Of course, these questions are rhetorical, but I don't recall ever getting a straight 
answer from you on them.  If you have answered and I've simply forgotten, would you 
mind refreshing my memory?

The point that I and others on this list have tried to make to you but have seemingly 
failed to do is that with God all truth is one.  There is absolutely no dividing line 
with "this kind of truth over here" and "that kind of truth over there".  Granted, 
there are more important and less important truths for us here in this life, but even 
so, while the Book of Mormon is indispensible, so is the law of gravity.  So it's all 
one with God.  The concept of non-overlapping magesteria has no place with God.  His 
knowledge embraces it all.  And that's why some of us on this list don't care much for 
the notion of NOMA.

=  Mark Gregson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  =

   
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RE: [ZION] LOTR

[Larry Jackson]

Gary Smith:

Hm. First Tom Matkin claims to dislike LOTR, ...

___

There must be a disconnect somewhere.  I know that Tom has a keen 
sense of humor, and I'm sure he enjoys laughing on the rug.  

That's the same thing up north as ROTFL is down south, right?

Larry Jackson
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RE: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?

[Jim Cobabe]

Jon Spencer wrote:
---
I have come to the conclusion that Marc was cheated by the Pakistani 
owner of a convenience store in his neck of the woods!  :-)
---

Sounds like a Simpsons episode.

Come to think of it, perhaps we could draw some interesting and 
instructive parallels between Homer and his Canadian 
counterpart-apparent.  :-0

---
Mij Ebaboc

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Re: [ZION] Just finished reading....

[Scott McGee]

Shortly after we moved into our new home a year and a half ago, Dish
Network had a deal where you paid $199 for the dish and receiver, and got
basic 100 channel programming for $19/month for a year. This was a good
deal, and we took them up on it. This last summer, the price per month
went up. There is one good reason we have kept it. That is the BYU
channel. We watched confrence, the First Presidency's Christmas address,
and more on it. Great great stuff!

Scott

On Mon, 16 Dec 2002 17:42:15 -0900, "John W. Redelfs"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> Gary Smith favored us with:
> >People rarely gain revelation from watching tv shows, regardless of how
> >exciting or neat they are. But when we concentrate in the spiritual
> >realm, we attune ourselves to the spiritual things. For me, their words
> >are great, but even greater is the spiritual insight I gain.
> 
> Here in Alaska we can tune our dish to receive BYU TV.  In that case, we 
> get a constant flood of light and truth into our home, past conference 
> talks, forum assemblies, BYU speeches of the year, Women's conference,
> BYU 
> education week, etc.  It isn't the medium that corrupts but the message.
> 
> 
> John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***
> "...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest" --Joseph
> Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248
> ***
> All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
> 
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> 
--  
Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as
down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own?
 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee)
 Web:   http://scott.themcgees.org/

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Re: [ZION] New guy

[Rick Mathis]

At 05:39 AM 12/17/2002 -0700, George wrote:

Boy - you lost me there - are you asking about abilities (to argue) or the
size of bullets (so as to end the argument)?


Yes.

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Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?

[Jon Spencer]

I have come to the conclusion that Marc was cheated by the Pakistani owner
of a convenience store in his neck of the woods!  :-)  Marc, while I agree
that Pakistan is not the country to model our society after and that there
are many distinct factions operating within the government, often at odds
with each other, do you believe that there are any other bad guys out there
(other than Bush, I mean :-).

If we limited out allies to only those who were just like us, we would have
very few allies indeed.  We partnered with Stalin in WWII because (being
VERY generous) we felt that to do otherwise would seriously hamper our war
efforts.  Having someone as a temporary ally does not mean that you condone
their behavior.  Rather it means that you are usually between a rock and a
hard place, and you may want to deny your adversary that country as his
ally.

I would hazard to guess that we both believe that you prioritize your
problems and work from the top down.  Perhaps it is the case that you have a
different prioritized list than do I.  However, I think that Afghanistan and
Iraq and North Korea are higher on the list than is Pakistan, which, by the
way, is pretty high up on my list.

And then, of course, you bring up a very interesting Libertarian argument
about free markets and opium (note I didn't say you put it forward).  I
honestly would be very interested in your elaborating on this topic.

Jon

Marc A. Schindler wrote:

I don't think it matters (to me, anyway) whether it was deliberate or not.
The
people in central and SW Afghanistan in particular have little choice, as
there is
no economic alternative for them. One could just as easily say this is the
"free
market" at work without the help of the CIA. I *do* believe, however, that
the ISI
(Pakistan's counterpart) was behind it for reasons of their own.

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Re: [ZION] New guy

[Jon Spencer]

We have a Brother Wright in our ward.  He is a Special Forces sniper.

Could he help out here?

Jon

Stacy Smith wrote:

> Just so long as that other guy named Wright doesn't come along.  Well, I'm
> sure you'll look out for him.  He might be trouble.
>
> Stacy.
>
> At 09:16 PM 12/16/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>
> >Hi George,
> >
> >I'm glad you came to the Zion list. I have enjoyed your postings at FAIR.
> >I'm sure you will find the Zion list to be a place of refuge. Sometimes
> >we argue a little but we learn so much. This is a list where members
> >really care about each other. I've only been here a couple years and they
> >haven't thrown me out yet. 
> >
> >Again, welcome.
> >
> >Paul O
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> >Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
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Re: [ZION] Iran's Nukes

[Jon Spencer]

Jim the Babe wrote:

>
> John W. Redelfs wrote:
> ---
> I have some anxiety that we may soon find out who has and does not have
> nukes.
> ---
>
> There were some misleading news reports on this, I think.  In the
> headlines last Friday.  Those rotten news guys, they're always trying to
> increase John's anxiety.  :-)

It is a worldwide conspiracy, of which I must now confess, both the Babes
are a part of.

[SNIP]

> I was interested to learn that the Russians are now selling nuclear
> technological knowhow.  What a refreshing change for the world to buy
> their nuclear plants from the Russians, instead of from the Canadians,
> or the PRC.  Perhaps the Russian bid was cheaper.  ;->

They are just moving the old stuff from Chernobyl to Iran.

Jon

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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[Jon Spencer]

I get three "A"'s.

We have been given intellectual gifts to employ.  The word employ here is
very important, for it means that we must work at figuring things out, at
overcoming our natural man instincts.  We may be of the fold, but we are not
sheep.

In determining the ability of a country's government to "hold[ing] sacred
the freedom of conscience," I use the measure of whether or not there are
missionaries in that country.  If there are not, then it is clear that,
notwithstanding some special agreement between the Church and the government
such as in Israel, that government is subject to serious review by its
populace.

Since I just went on an exchange with our missionaries, and since we just
had more than 100 missionaries visit the store while on their semi-annual
trip to the temple, I think that the US is OK for at least another year or
two.

Jon

- Original Message -
From: "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 10:02 PM
Subject: RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21


> Jim Cobabe favored us with:
> >"Church members who seek to use LDS doctrine as a basis for concluding
> >that government infringements on inalienable rights have excused them
> >from obeying the law seem to have forgotten the principle of following
> >the prophets. Until the prophets invoke this principle, faithful members
> >will also refrain from doing so. We remain committed to uphold our
> >governments and to obey their laws." (Dallin H. Oaks, "Some
> >Responsibilities of Citizenship", BYU Marriott Center, July 3, 1994)
>
> Following this same train of thought, here are questions 7-9 in the
> screening questionnaire I use for my Moroni list:
>
> 7. I believe the Twelfth Article of Faith: "We believe in being subject to
> kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and
> sustaining the law."
> A. Strongly agree
> B. Agree
> C. Don't know
> D. Disagree
> F. Strongly disagree
>
> 8. But I also believe D&C 134:5 which reads: "We believe that all men are
> bound to sustain and uphold the respective governments in which they
> reside, WHILE PROTECTED IN THEIR INHERENT AND INALIENABLE
> RIGHTS, by the laws of such governments; and that sedition and rebellion
are
> unbecoming every citizen thus protected, and should be punished
accordingly;
> and that all governments have a right to enact such laws as in their own
> judgments are best calculated to secure the public interest; at the same
time,
> however, holding sacred the freedom of conscience."
> A. Strongly agree
> B. Agree
> C. Don't know
> D. Disagree
> F. Strongly disagree
>
> 9. However, when these two are in apparent contradiction, I believe that
it
> is the Priesthood led by the President of the Church, rather than the
> individual that makes the final determination as to which principle is
> supreme at any given moment. A saint does not take the law into his own
> hands.
> A. Strongly agree
> B. Agree
> C. Don't know
> D. Disagree
> F. Strongly disagree
>
> John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ===
> "Atheistic humanism is the opiate of the self-described
> intellectuals" --Uncle Bob
> ===
> All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
>
>

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Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?

[Jon Spencer]

John W. Redelfs wrote:
> Anyway, if it is true the Bush, Sr. helped create a market for Afghan
> opium, it would explain why that market and distribution system remains
> intact after a Bush, Jr. victory.
>
> I'm sure this is just a pack of lies told about our honorable leaders.  At
> least I hope so.

First off, this probably belongs on lds-poll.  And second, if you can even
seriously entertain such ideas, it either says a Lott about you or a Lott
about the country.  Of course, it could be that my not being able to
SERIOUSLY entertain such ideas may say a Lott about me!

Hillary could be right.  There could be a Vast Right Wing Conspiracy intent
on getting opium into the country.

Right.

Jon

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Re: [ZION] trinitarianism

[Jon Spencer]

Bummer!  I just printed it off to read.  I assume that the content won't
change, so I'll try to save some trees.

Jon

Marc A. Schindler wrote:

I can't find the email where I gave the link to the article on
trinitarianism on my website, but I went to the site, and found that the
article isn't in very good shape (the formatting is inconsistent and the
footnotes are all messed up). So if you wait a few days I'll try to whip
it into better shape.

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Re: [ZION] New guy

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 05:43 12/17/2002 -0700, Gib Egroeg wrote:

I was trying not to let it happen, but I think you topped everyone and
surely had the last word on this.

George

- Original Message -
From: "Stephen Beecroft" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 10:47 PM
Subject: RE: [ZION] New guy


> -George-
> > Could that be right, wright. or wrong?
>
> The "W" should be capitalized. Write "Wright" right. (But don't fixate
> on it to the point that you feel compelled to do so, or you'll find
> yourself performing the "Write 'Wright' right" rite.)
>
> Stephen



St Stephen is usually at the top of such things, which implies, fortunately 
for us, that he is not topless.  It could even be said that he is somewhat 
of a ghastly, ghostly topper here, which sounds a lot like tauper,** which 
leads us to a taper, which will help to light the way to the old Tipper, so 
trip-her to stop-her before she "gores" somebody and we wind up with a 
stiffer for a Staufer-stuffer and have no time to peruse the troper from 
the proper roper-biker* tipping precariously at the top of the stairs.

Till the ever clarifying (butter)

** do you need a chat with your bishop, Stephen?***

***  this, of course, being three "Schindllers"  as opposed  to the 
other one which is only two

 which is not to be confused with the opposing sore thumb*

*  which leads us back to Sir Scott's sore bum from two completely 
independent and irrelevant directions, proving inconclusively that life IS 
in fact one eternal round, from very top to bottom down

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Re: [ZION] New guy

[George Cobabe]

Boy - you lost me there - are you asking about abilities (to argue) or the
size of bullets (so as to end the argument)?

George

- Original Message -
From: "Rick Mathis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 9:22 PM
Subject: Re: [ZION] New guy


> At 09:16 PM 12/16/2002 -0600, Paul wrote:
> >Hi George,
> >
> >I'm glad you came to the Zion list. I have enjoyed your postings at FAIR.
> >I'm sure you will find the Zion list to be a place of refuge. Sometimes
> >we argue a little but we learn so much.
>
> So, George, what's your favourite calibre?
>
> Rick Mathis
>
>

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Re: [ZION] New guy

[George Cobabe]

I was trying not to let it happen, but I think you topped everyone and
surely had the last word on this.

George

- Original Message -
From: "Stephen Beecroft" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 10:47 PM
Subject: RE: [ZION] New guy


> -George-
> > Could that be right, wright. or wrong?
>
> The "W" should be capitalized. Write "Wright" right. (But don't fixate
> on it to the point that you feel compelled to do so, or you'll find
> yourself performing the "Write 'Wright' right" rite.)
>
> Stephen
>
>

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>
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Re: [ZION] New guy

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 21:16 12/16/2002 -0600, St Paul not Minnesota wrote:

 I've only been here a couple years and they
haven't thrown me out yet. 



Notice carefully the "yet"


8>))

Till

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RE: [ZION] Banning motorcycles

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 03:14 12/17/2002 +, Sir Chester wrote:



I was zipping along a Missouri road back in 1975 and fell off my
motorcycle.  Luckily, my fall was broken by my face on the pavement or I
could've hurt myself.

So it's not motorcycles which are dangerous.  It's roads.  Or faces.




Even Till has taken a tumble once, from a Norton.  There was this rock in 
the road which he smuck amidships at 60.  The rest is subject to some 
pretty vivid imagining.  HE thinks rocks are dangerous (not to mention 
young men)


Till the twisted

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Re: [ZION] "heck" ain't cussin

[George Cobabe]

I was trying to suggest that the doctrine of trinity, with its idea of a
universal constant referred to as "God" and manifest as the three
personages, is based on a true LDS doctrine of a manifestation of a constant
standard of what is a God in infinite forms of exalted Gods.  Not that the
defective doctrine is true, but that it comes from a variation on the truth.

The problem is that the doctrine of the trinity is so convoluted we cannot
if discuss it without being subject to the same requirements of confusion
and misunderstanding.

Not much simpler is it?

George

- Original Message -
From: "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 7:21 PM
Subject: Re: [ZION] "heck" ain't cussin


> George Cobabe favored us with:
> >Marc - would it be true to say that we LDS believe in a universal
definition
> >of Godhood, and what is entailed in that high station, and see infinite
> >manifestations of that universal concept?  What is "God" is a universal
> >constant that many, many are exalted to conform with?
>
> Would it be possible for you to rephrase this more simply?  I am afraid it
> is above my reading level, and I don't understand. --JWR
>
>

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Re: [ZION] New guy

[George Cobabe]

Jim and I share a grandfather.  His dad, Bill is brother to my dad, George.
We are currently in the habit of getting together once a year with our
Cobabe Cousins whom we correspond with on  a CobabeCousins email list owned
by Jim.

We have a lot of cousins and if anyone should ever run into a Cobabe they
will, for sure be a cousin, as there are no others around.  We all look
alike so there will be little doubt as to the relationship, that is, of
course, if you know us off list.

There is a family of CoBabe (including a prominent paleontologist who named
a dinosaur CoBabe something or other) not directly related and some Kobabe
in Canada not directly related, but both go back to the same region in
Germany so must hook up somewhere.  There is in Ogden a family of Cobabe,
but they had only daughters so the name will not continue there.  He, Alvin,
is a first cousin, once removed, from Jim and me.

The Cobabes settled in Ogden and Morgan county in the 1850's as Mormon
immigrants.  Our grandfather moved to Los Angeles in the 1930's and the
family now identifies with the South Bay area (the Beach Cities) of Los
Angeles as "home"

That likely told you more than you really wanted to know.

George


- Original Message -
From: "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 7:45 PM
Subject: Re: [ZION] New guy


> George Cobabe favored us with:
> >I am glad to be one of the newest member of this list.  By its
description
> >it is what I have been looking for - a list of LDS faithful ready to
discuss
> >without rancor.
>
> Well, there are moments of rancor, but like a faithful family we try to
> keep it to a minimum.
>
> >I live in Ogden and have been a member all of my life and with a heritage
in
> >the church back to the 1830's.  But the testimony I enjoy had to be
earned
> >just like the newest member and in my case it has been received many
times
> >over. I am married to the lovely Sylvia and we have five children and
eight
> >beautiful grandchildren.  Currently on the Ogden University High Council
and
> >loving it.  The kids you send to Weber State are the greatest in the
world.
>
> So tell us how you are related to Jim.  Any friend or family of Jim Cobabe
> is a friend of mine.
>
> >I hope that I am right about the list - I look forward to receiving the
> >first messages from you.
>
> We are glad to have you among us.  I hope we live up to your lofty
> expectations.  If not, consider it an exercise in Christlike forgiveness.
>
>
> John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ===
> At present, the Book of Mormon is studied in our Sunday
> School and seminary classes every fourth year. This
> four-year pattern, however, must not be followed by
> Church members in their personal and family study. We
> need to read daily from the pages of the book that will get
> a man "nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by
> any other book." (Ezra Taft Benson, October 1988)
> ===
> All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
>
>

//
> ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
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>

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>
>
>

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Re: [ZION] Re: New guy

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 14:54 12/16/2002 -0700, Gib Egroeg wrote:


George has to be better looking, because Jim is definitely smarter.  But to
tell you the truth if you have seen one Cobabe you will recognize the rest.

Just happy to be here and living off what I suspect is the good name of good
o'cousin Jim.



Well, some of us are happy to have you aboard

Till the benevolent


Elmer L. Fairbank   N2OKConsultant/Advisor
Molecular Biology & GeneticsCornell University
G63 Biotech Bldg607-255-2147
check out my web page:   http://elf.mbg.cornell.edu

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RE: [ZION] Banning motorcycles

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 17:21 12/16/2002 -0400, St Scott wrote:

Does
that mean, however, thay you shouldn't ever drink anything in a brown
bottle? No! You might want to be a bit more circumspect in public
settings,



You could put it in a brown paper bag with just the top sticking out and 
sip on it that way.   8>))



With your motorcycle, however, someone seeing you riding will NOT assume
that you are breaking some commandment. You could, however, if still
concerned take a similar approach to the alternate above. You can be very
public and up-front about your motorcycle and why you feel it is a good
thing. This also allows you to provide saftey info to admiring teens.



Well, they don't have back seats for starters!



Till the ever helpful

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Re: [ZION] New guy

[Marc A. Schindler]

Laura Maery Post has put out two editions of "Mormons on the Internet" (I have
copies of each), and that's a good hardcopy source, although as she readily admits,
it gets outdated pretty quickly.

Stacy Smith wrote:

> Well, I'd like to know just how many such lists there are.  Judging from
> other lists on other subjects, there must be hundreds out there.
>
> Stacy.
>
> At 05:45 PM 12/16/2002 -0900, you wrote:
>
> >George Cobabe favored us with:
> >>I am glad to be one of the newest member of this list.  By its description
> >>it is what I have been looking for - a list of LDS faithful ready to discuss
> >>without rancor.
> >
> >Well, there are moments of rancor, but like a faithful family we try to
> >keep it to a minimum.
> >
> >>I live in Ogden and have been a member all of my life and with a heritage in
> >>the church back to the 1830's.  But the testimony I enjoy had to be earned
> >>just like the newest member and in my case it has been received many times
> >>over. I am married to the lovely Sylvia and we have five children and eight
> >>beautiful grandchildren.  Currently on the Ogden University High Council and
> >>loving it.  The kids you send to Weber State are the greatest in the world.
> >
> >So tell us how you are related to Jim.  Any friend or family of Jim Cobabe
> >is a friend of mine.
> >
> >>I hope that I am right about the list - I look forward to receiving the
> >>first messages from you.
> >
> >We are glad to have you among us.  I hope we live up to your lofty
> >expectations.  If not, consider it an exercise in Christlike forgiveness.
> >
> >
> >John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >===
> >At present, the Book of Mormon is studied in our Sunday
> >School and seminary classes every fourth year. This
> >four-year pattern, however, must not be followed by
> >Church members in their personal and family study. We
> >need to read daily from the pages of the book that will get
> >a man "nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by
> >any other book." (Ezra Taft Benson, October 1988)
> >===
> >All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
> >
> >//
> >///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
> >///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
> >/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >---
> >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> >Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002
>
> //
> ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
> ///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
> /
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer, nor
those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] How Greek Philosophy Corrupted the Christian Concept of God

[Marc A. Schindler]

Well, I've been working on it tonight/this morning because I have insomnia (how's
that for a "spiritual motivator?") I got about halfway through and found a couple of
embarrassing typos along with the rest of the formatting (don't use Netscape
Composer on Word docs, at least, not Netscape 4.72).

Stacy Smith wrote:

> I'd love to see that one when you get it good and cleaned up.
>
> Stacy.
>
> At 06:45 PM 12/16/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>
> >If you want to learn more about trinitarianism (albeit from an LDS pov,
> >where I
> >attack it), I've written 2 versions out of a planned series of 3. The
> >first was
> >printed in FAIR's early series of monthly newsletters, and was the "short"
> >version. The "medium" version is on my website at
> >http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/C/trinity_1.html  I've promised FAIR a
> >"long" version eventually, but it's taking time (well, it *is* the long
> >version,
> >after all, and I want to make sure I understand some of the twists and
> >turns the
> >doctrine has taken in its long and confusing history before I try to
> >attack it)
> >
> >Jon Spencer wrote:
> >
> > > I checked at our store today, and lo and behold, we do have the book "How
> > > Greek Philosophy Corrupted the Christian Concept of God."  I added it
> > to our
> > > website, with the following description (actually, only the first two
> > > paragraphs would fit - but you get all three!).  It is a very good book,
> > > well worth the reading.
> > >
> > > Jon
> > >
> > > "How Greek Philosophy Corrupted the Christian Concept of God" brings
> > > profound new insights to the Trinitarian doctrines of "orthodox"
> > > Christianity. With clear and precise documentation, the book shows how
> > these
> > > doctrines migrated into early Christianity from Greek philosophy. The
> > > various aspects of Trinitarian belief are isolated, linked to their Greek
> > > sources, and carefully analyzed to show how they differ radically from
> > > biblical teaching.
> > >
> > > The writings of early Church Fathers, portrayed in their historical
> > context,
> > > show that during the second century theological concepts taught in
> > Platonism
> > > were adopted as Christians struggled to end Roman persecution.  Emperor
> > > Marcus Aurelius, a famous Stoic philosopher, was putting Christians to
> > death
> > > because their beliefs did not conform to the Hellenized religion of the
> > day.
> > > The book shows that the early Church Fathers sought to save their people's
> > > lives by re-defining the Christian God in Greek terms.  Their efforts
> > > brought metaphysics to Christianity and ushered in concepts like the
> > > Trinity.
> > >
> > > After presenting the historical setting in which these philosophical errors
> > > were embraced as Christian doctrine, the book compares orthodox Christian
> > > theology today, called "classical theism," to biblical teachings.  The book
> > > identifies how Greek philosophy has influenced each of the major attributes
> > > of God taught in classical theism.  Modern theologians are challenged on
> > > numerous doctrinal points that found their way from Greek philosophy into
> > > ancient creeds, but are found wanting in the light of careful theological,
> > > historic and scientific analysis.  This book constitutes a major challenge
> > > to those who accept the tenants of classical theism, but do not know the
> > > many aspects of their doctrine that are based on Greek philosophy.
> > >
> > >
> > //
> > > ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
> > > ///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
> > >
> > /
> > >
> >
> >--
> >Marc A. Schindler
> >Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
> >
> >“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he
> >will pick
> >himself up and continue on” ­ Winston Churchill
> >
> >Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
> >solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s
> >employer,
> >nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
> >
> >//
> >///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
> >///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
> >/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >---
> >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> >Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002
>
> //
> ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
> ///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
> /
>

--
Marc

Re: [ZION] The latest from Iraq

[Marc A. Schindler]

This just isn't true, I'm afraid. They were *delivered* to the Security Council,
but the US still managed to get first crack at them. An excerpt from the US State
Dept. briefing:

Reeker, the spokesman for the State Department, on 10/12/02:

T"he U.S. government has made copies of the Iraqi weapons declaration and
distributed them to the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council and
other council members with expertise to assess the declaration for
proliferation-sensitive information, State Department deputy spokesman Philip
Reeker said at the daily  media briefing in Washington December 10.

 REEKER SAID ONCE SUCH INFORMATION HAS BEEN DLELETED, A WORKING DOCUMENT WILL BE
MADE AVAILABLE TO OTHER MEMBERS OF THE [SECURITY] COUNCIL AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.
[emphasis added] Reeker said once such information has been deleted, a working
document will be made available to other members of the council as soon as
possible. The United States is going to analyze the declaration with respect to
its credibility and compliance with U.N. Security Council resolution 1441, while
drawing on the specialized expertise of other declared nuclear states so as to
accelerate the review,  Reeker said.

In keeping with the Security Council president's decision to allow access to the
Iraqi declaration to those members of the Security Council with expertise to
assess the  risks of proliferation and other sensitive information to begin
reviewing that document,  full copies of the report have been made available to
those members of the Council  that have that expertise. As we discussed yesterday,
the United States assisted by copying this declaration. We had been asked to
assure that the document was copied in a controlled environment to guard against
the inadvertent release of information.

And from the press corps Q&A session:

Question: There have been some grumblings on the sideline about Washington
taking the first set of documents and whisking them down here
to copy them off. Have
you received any messages like that from Permanent 5 members
or other Security
Council members?

Mr. Reeker: No. And, in fact, all Permanent 5 members have
their copies, as I think
we talked about yesterday. As I mentioned, based on the
Council president's decision
-- which was an appropriate one and consistent with the
resolution -- we assisted in
ensuring the safeguards against release, transmission of
proliferation-sensitive
information, making sure that that was not jeopardized.

So we did the copying of this. We got the copies to all of
those members with that
expertise and all together we will be assessing the full
document to see about
proliferation-sensitive information so that then we can make
available to other
members of the Council a working document as soon as possible.

Now, I could simply be reading this the wrong way, I realize. But it looks pretty
evident that the US got the documents first. Incidentally, the other nations with
"expertise in this matter" happen to be the other permanent members of the
Security Council, but not the rest of the Security Council at present (10 other
countries get a turn for I think it's 5 years, on the SC, in rotation. For
instance, Canada was on until about a year ago, when Mexico took our place.

Gary Smith wrote:

> Actually, the permanent members of the Security Council all received it
> at the same time. Russia condemned the document at the same time the US
> did. It was the temporary members who received the delayed copy, to
> ensure classified nuclear information did not slip out into the hands of
> non-nuclear countries (like Syria, which is on the Council right now).
> K'aya K'ama,
> Gerald/gary  Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www
> .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html
> "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free."  -
> Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
>
> Marc:
> No, Larry -- the U.S. insisted on looking it over first before giving it
> to other
> permanent members of the Security Council, which is only 5 nations
> (technically
> speaking, not the "UN" -- that implies the General Assembly). This was
> public
> news, I'm not making it up.
>
> 
> Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
> Only $9.95 per month!
> Visit www.juno.com
>
> //
> ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
> ///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
> /
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
hims

Re: [ZION] Iran's Nukes

[Marc A. Schindler]

Jim Cobabe wrote:

> I was interested to learn that the Russians are now selling nuclear
> technological knowhow.  What a refreshing change for the world to buy
> their nuclear plants from the Russians, instead of from the Canadians,
> or the PRC.  Perhaps the Russian bid was cheaper.  ;->
>

This really isn't new, actually. There are a lot of out-of-work Russian and
Ukrainian scientists around (I've met some of them even here in Edmonton at
high-tech firms I've visited). And of course, our CANDU (and now the more compact
Maple reactor being sold by a former division of AECL, and a sister company to the
medical products division, where I lived -- see
http://biz.yahoo.com/cnw/021029/maple_1_reactor_1.html for the Maple, and
http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~cz725/cnf_sectionA.htm#c for CANDU. A Three-Mile
Island or Chernobyl-type accident is virtually impossible with either reactor.
What we won't sell are the research reactors such as are installed in Chalk River
ON (near where the uranium for the 2 US bombs dropped on Japan was mined), and
Whiteshell MN (NE of Winnipeg). Both of these reactors have very high neutron flux
-- enough to give a 1.5 cm Cobalt-60 source an energy level approaching smaller
linear accelerators.

[Yeah, yeah, I know you were yanking my chain, but give me a chance for
boosterism...]
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[Marc A. Schindler]

There's an interesting matter of interpretation here. Is "while" a conditional
term here, or is it merely setting up the other party's side of the covenant? And
if one party breaks the covenant, is the other party free to break it as well?

"John W. Redelfs" wrote:

> Jim Cobabe favored us with:
> >"Church members who seek to use LDS doctrine as a basis for concluding
> >that government infringements on inalienable rights have excused them
> >from obeying the law seem to have forgotten the principle of following
> >the prophets. Until the prophets invoke this principle, faithful members
> >will also refrain from doing so. We remain committed to uphold our
> >governments and to obey their laws." (Dallin H. Oaks, "Some
> >Responsibilities of Citizenship", BYU Marriott Center, July 3, 1994)
>
> Following this same train of thought, here are questions 7-9 in the
> screening questionnaire I use for my Moroni list:
>
> 7. I believe the Twelfth Article of Faith: "We believe in being subject to
> kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and
> sustaining the law."
> A. Strongly agree
> B. Agree
> C. Don't know
> D. Disagree
> F. Strongly disagree
>
> 8. But I also believe D&C 134:5 which reads: "We believe that all men are
> bound to sustain and uphold the respective governments in which they
> reside, WHILE PROTECTED IN THEIR INHERENT AND INALIENABLE
> RIGHTS, by the laws of such governments; and that sedition and rebellion are
> unbecoming every citizen thus protected, and should be punished accordingly;
> and that all governments have a right to enact such laws as in their own
> judgments are best calculated to secure the public interest; at the same time,
> however, holding sacred the freedom of conscience."
> A. Strongly agree
> B. Agree
> C. Don't know
> D. Disagree
> F. Strongly disagree
>
> 9. However, when these two are in apparent contradiction, I believe that it
> is the Priesthood led by the President of the Church, rather than the
> individual that makes the final determination as to which principle is
> supreme at any given moment. A saint does not take the law into his own
> hands.
> A. Strongly agree
> B. Agree
> C. Don't know
> D. Disagree
> F. Strongly disagree
>
> John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ===
> "Atheistic humanism is the opiate of the self-described
> intellectuals" --Uncle Bob
> ===
> All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
>
> //
> ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
> ///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
> /
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?

[Marc A. Schindler]

I don't think it matters (to me, anyway) whether it was deliberate or not. The
people in central and SW Afghanistan in particular have little choice, as there is
no economic alternative for them. One could just as easily say this is the "free
market" at work without the help of the CIA. I *do* believe, however, that the ISI
(Pakistan's counterpart) was behind it for reasons of their own.

"John W. Redelfs" wrote:

> Marc A. Schindler favored us with:
> >Contrary to what seems to be the general impression in the U.S. that
> >Afghanistan has improved with the overthrow of the Taliban regime, there
> >are signs that the ancien regime has returned -- the "Northern Alliance"
> >was, of course, nothing but the original gang of thugs who ran the
> >country, and according to the latest issue of Jane's Intelligence
> >Review, Afghanistan is once again the world's largest opium producer.
>
> There is a strong belief held on the radical right in this country that
> while George H. Bush was the head of the CIA, he set up the heroine
> distribution system by which narcotics from this part of the world were
> transported to the USA.  Bo Gritz had a lot to say on the matter.  Of
> course Bo Gritz lost most of his credibility when he left the Church and
> proved himself to be a mere opportunist.
>
> Anyway, if it is true the Bush, Sr. helped create a market for Afghan
> opium, it would explain why that market and distribution system remains
> intact after a Bush, Jr. victory.
>
> I'm sure this is just a pack of lies told about our honorable leaders.  At
> least I hope so.
>
> John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ===
> At present, the Book of Mormon is studied in our Sunday
> School and seminary classes every fourth year. This
> four-year pattern, however, must not be followed by
> Church members in their personal and family study. We
> need to read daily from the pages of the book that will get
> a man "nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by
> any other book." (Ezra Taft Benson, October 1988)
> ===
> All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
>
> //
> ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
> ///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
> /
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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