RE: [ZION] Carob beans

[Jim Cobabe]

John W. Redelfs wrote:
---
Don't we already know that John the Baptist ate locusts and honey?  
Locusts are definitely animal protein, not plants.
---

Apparently some believe "locusts" to be a mistranslation perpetuated 
from very early manuscripts.

In certain early historical writings the phrase is found as "honey, and 
cakes made with oil and honey."  The change is attributed to misreading 
the Greek "enkis", meaning "cake oil", to "akris" which means "locusts."

But of course this is all Greek to me.

Supposedly this is also consistent with what scholars of the Dead Sea 
Scrolls have learned quite recently about the strict rules of the 
Essenes community, of which some believe John the Baptist was an 
associate.  Some of John's other peculiar habits seem to have 
interesting parallels with the Essenes culture.

FWIW.

---
Mij Ebaboc

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RE: [ZION] Article in "Science" on genetic diversity

[Jim Cobabe]

Stephen Beecroft wrote:
---
What?! Is this suggesting the outrageous proposition that 
commonly-defined racial characteristics are  genetically based?
---

Spare your outrage, Stephen.

The authors of the study _studiously_ refrain from using the term 
"race".  Instead they characterize unique population groups as 
"clusters".  One cannot help but notice, however, that the "clusters" 
indicated on the map correspond rather remarkably with traditional 
racial demographics, but that's beside the politically-correct point.

One wonders if the authors might have been injured by such strenuous 
bending-over-backwards exertions.  :->

---
Mij Ebaboc

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Re: [ZION] Notice from Listowner

[George Cobabe]

I have followed instructions, receiving a confirming email, but still do not
know the email address to submit posts to.  Will that be coming from
smartgroups in another notice forthwith? or do you have it to give to us?
Or have I been blind and just missed it?

George

- Original Message -
From: "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 4:01 PM
Subject: [ZION] Notice from Listowner


> The Zion list is moving.
>
> Because of an unacceptable number of problems at Topica, I am moving the
> Zion list to SmartGroups. (http://www.smartgroups.com/index.cfm?)
>
> Also, because the software at SmartGroups will not accept a list name of
> only four characters, while hosted at SmartGroups the Zion list will be
> known as ZionsBest.  I apologize for the name change.  It distresses me
> somewhat too.  But it is necessary.
>
> Please send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Once
the
> changeover is complete, the Zion list at Topica will be deleted.  Please
> don't get left behind.
>
> Also, list members may move to the new host on the website listed above.
>
> I apologize for any inconvenience in this move; but Topica has just become
> too unreliable as a host, and I hope that the list will work better at
> SmartGroups.
>
> Your friend and brother,
> John W. Redelfs, Listowner of Zion, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>

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[ZION] Race discussion

[Jim Cobabe]

I've always wanted to pursue a serious discussion of race issues, but I 
am pretty sure we can't talk about such things without making someone 
mad.

Who would take offense if we discussed Laminites in the Book of Mormon?  
Can you explain why?

Perhaps I'm just an ignorant white man who can never understand.  



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[ZION] the end

[Paul Osborne]

John,

What is the final day or hour when posts can be posted on the Zion list?

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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RE: [ZION] Race discussion

[Jim Cobabe]

I could probably work on spelling "Lamanites" correctly.

---
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RE: [ZION] Race discussion

[Jim Cobabe]

Intesting article in today's Deseret News.

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,450022058,00.html?

  PAGE, Ariz. — For more than 20 years, R.D.'s Drive-In has been 
serving burgers, fries and shakes here by Lake Powell, all in relative 
calm and obscurity.
  That changed when customers and employees began complaining that 
other workers were making lewd comments about them — in Navajo. Worried 
about losing business, the owners asked all employees to sign an 
agreement to speak English only, except when a customer could not 
understand English.
  "If you feel unable to comply with this requirement," the new work 
rule said, "you may find another job."


Here's a bit from the EEOC "guidelines" with reference to English-only 
rules.  EEOC Title VII prohibits employers from discriminating on the 
basis of national origin.  (Notice how they weasled around using the 
word "race" again :-))

1606.7 Speak-English-only rules.

(a) When applied at all times. A rule requiring employees to speak only 
English at all times in the workplace is a burdensome term and condition 
of employment. The primary language of an individual is often an 
essential national origin characteristic. Prohibiting employees at all 
times, in the workplace, from speaking their primary language or the 
language they speak most comfortably, disadvantages an individual's 
employment opportunities on the basis of national origin. It may also 
create an atmosphere of inferiority, isolation and intimidation based on 
national origin which could result in a discriminatory working 
environment.7 (FOOTNOTE) Therefore, the Commission will presume that 
such a rule violates title VII and will closely scrutinize it.

(FOOTNOTE) 7See CD 71 - 446 (1970), CCH EEOC Decisions 6173, 2 FEP 
Cases, 1127; CD 72 - 0281 (1971), CCH EEOC Decisions 6293. 

(b) When applied only at certain times. An employer may have a rule 
requiring that employees speak only in English at certain times where 
the employer can show that the rule is justified by business necessity. 

(c) Notice of the rule. It is common for individuals whose primary 
language is not English to inadvertently change from speaking English to 
speaking their primary language. Therefore, if an employer believes it 
has a business necessity for a speak-English-only rule at certain times, 
the employer should inform its employees of the general circumstances 
when speaking only in English is required and of the consequences of 
violating the rule. If an employer fails to effectively notify its 
employees of the rule and makes an adverse employment decision against 
an individual based on a violation of the rule, the Commission will 
consider the employer's application of the rule as evidence of 
discrimination on the basis of national origin. 

---
Mij Ebaboc

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Re: [ZION] Race discussion

[George Cobabe]

It does not look like you need to do any more work now.

What I would work on is your own name.  Something is just not right about
your signature.

Couz George

- Original Message -
From: "Jim Cobabe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 9:59 AM
Subject: RE: [ZION] Race discussion


>
> I could probably work on spelling "Lamanites" correctly.
>
> ---
> Mij Ebaboc
>
>

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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

[Jon Spencer]

No, it doesn't.  You are creating doctrine that does not exist.

Apostasy alert!  Apostasy alert!  :-)

Jon

George  the Babe wrote:
> As God is, man may become by obeying the
> laws that God (created) to (allow us to) become God.
> 
> Just a little change. :-) Then it becomes a truly correct statement.

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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

[Jon Spencer]

George the Babe wrote:

>When God created this universe, and
> this world, He created the Laws by which things work, which may be the
same
> as what His Father created or they may be different.  The bottom line is
> that our Father is responsible for the Laws by which we live.

He did not create this universe. He caused it to be organized.  Big
difference!

Jon

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Re: Re:[ZION] World's Tallest Buildings

[Jon Spencer]

Wimps!  You're all wimps!

Noj

- Original Message -
From: "Val" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 10:35 AM
Subject: Re:[ZION] World's Tallest Buildings


> I agree, John.  On NPR this morning, I heard that the original plans
submitted this summer, were short buildings and plazas--and New Yorkers
protested that they thought the plans were "too boring".  All twelve of the
new plans call for tall buildings.
>
> 
>
> Again, the arrogance of the American--sometimes I want to ask "Who the
heck do we think we are??". . .I can imagine Osama and his cultist faction,
drooling and anxiously waiting in anticipation at the completion of such a
prominent target.
>
> One of the designers even said that immediately he knew he'd have a hard
time getting occupants for the higher floors, but he said that 10 or 12
years from now, it won't be a problem.  I predict it will be sooner.  As
Americans, we become complacent way to easily and quickly. It's irritating.
>
> done venting
>
> your sis in Mishawka
> val
>
>
>
> --John W. Redelfs gave us pause to think with:
> I think it is hubris to imagine we should build towers still taller than
the WTC.  Sure they can build them, but the experience with the WTC proves
that someone else can knock them down.  What is the point?  Why make
buildings a tempting target unnecessarily?  I should think that the builders
of the WTC would have learned their lesson.  Super tall building are not a
good idea.
>
> John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ===
> At present, the Book of Mormon is studied in our Sunday
> School and seminary classes every fourth year. This
> four-year pattern, however, must not be followed by
> Church members in their personal and family study. We
> need to read daily from the pages of the book that will get
> a man "nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by
> any other book." (Ezra Taft Benson, October 1988)
> ===
> All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
>
>

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Re: [ZION] Worship Christ

[Marc A. Schindler]

Thanks for the references. I had in mind only one, and I'm too lazy to go look it
up, but I'm sure it's well known to list members, and that's BRMcC's famous "Seven
Deadly Heresies" talk. Also, if I recall correctly, didn't the Nephites worship
Christ only to a point, after which he told them to worship the Father?

Perhaps we should separate the terms "pray to" and "worship."

"John W. Redelfs" wrote:

> Paul Osborne favored us with:
> >I agree with you on this John and submit the following to Marc which I
> >think shows that we must worship Christ as well as his Father and not
> >just in name only:
> >
> >“They Spoke to Us,” Friend, Dec. 1998, 15
> >
> >“President Gordon B. Hinckley: We believe in Christ. We worship Christ.
> >We take upon ourselves in solemn covenant His holy name. The Church to
> >which we belong carries His name. He is our Lord, our Savior, our
> >Redeemer through whom came the great Atonement with salvation and eternal
> >life.”
> >
> >Robert E. Wells, “Be a Friend, a Servant, a Son of the Savior,” Ensign,
> >Nov. 1982, 69
> >“I said to my friend, “Please allow me to explain that we definitely are
> >Christians—we do worship God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ”
> >
> >Dallin H. Oaks, “Why Do We Serve?” New Era, Mar. 1988, 5
> >“Service is an imperative for those who worship Jesus Christ.”
> >
> >“And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he
> >saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.” Heb 1:6
> >“And after he had said these words, he said unto me: Look! And I looked,
> >and I beheld the Son of God going forth among the children of men; and I
> >saw many fall down at his feet and worship him.” 1 Ne 11:24
> >“And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in
> >Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore
> >ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind,
> >and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise
> >be cast out.” 2 Ne 25:29
>
> I just love it when you cite sources, Paul.  It adds so much more
> credibility to your opinions. I commend the practice to all.  --JWR
>
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“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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Re: [ZION] Natural Law

[Marc A. Schindler]

But I don't agree that we're under any compulsion whatsoever to worship "the
highest entity or concept we can come up with." We're under "compulsion" only to
worship God.

George Cobabe wrote:

> I do not see the connection between my quote and your comments.
>
> My earlier, not copied comments, suggested that we needed to worship the
> highest entity or concept we could come up with.  It was a rhetorical
> question attempting to point out the fallacy of believing that there was
> anything more powerful than God, even law.
>
> George
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 8:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law
>
> George Cobabe wrote:
>
> > You are absolutely right.  However we are to worship God as the supreme
> > entity.  How can we do that if He is subject to a higher force, and
> > therefore not the supreme entity.
> >
>
> A principle is not an entity. Let's revisit what Elder Joseph Fielding Smith
> said:
> "This is an age when faith and the power of God should be greatly increased,
> but
> to the contrary it is diminished and men boast in their own strength; yet we
> see
> every day of our lives, the greatest of miracles. The flying of the
> airplane, the
> voice on the radio, the picture on the screen and television. There are
> thousands
> of miracles performed today, wonders that would astound our grandfathers
> could
> they suddenly see them. These miracles are as great as turning water into
> wine,
> raising the dead or anything else. A miracle is not, as many believe, the
> setting
> aside or overruling natural laws. Every miracle performed in Biblical days
> or now,
> is done on natural principles and in obedience to natural law. The healing
> of the
> sick, the raising of the dead, giving eyesight to the blind, whatever it may
> be
> that is done by the power of God, is in accordance with natural law. Because
> we do
> not understand how it is done, does not argue for the impossibility of it.
> Our
> Father in heaven knows many laws that are hidden from us. Man today has
> learned of
> many laws that our grandfathers did not understand. It is small business for
> the
> critics to condemn the miracles in scriptures as though all the laws of God
> have
> been revealed, and there could be no powers which they do not understand."
> (M:HO&D)
>
> >
> > That is my point.  That there is no higher entity, not even law.
> >
> > I don't know what you mean concerning the Romans, but to say that there is
> a
> > higher power, even law, than God is an inconsistency in the doctrine of
> > those that believe such a thing. IMNSHO
> >
> > George
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 11:48 AM
> > Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law
> >
> > I'm afraid I don't see how it follows that we should worship the law. We
> > have been
> > told to worship God the Father. Period. Not even Jesus Christ -- God the
> > Father.
> > Worship is a person-to-person interaction as we understand it. It is the
> > Romans
> > who have to deal with the inherent inconsistencies in their theology.
> >
> > George Cobabe wrote:
> >
> > > Furthermore, if Natural Law is the great constant and above God, then it
> > is
> > > the law we should worship.  If we choose to do so it is then we become
> > more
> > > like Protestants and Catholics, in that our object of worship becomes
> > > something without form, no body, parts, or passions.  The Law can fill
> the
> > > universe and yet dwell in our hearts.  We become more like Jews who know
> > > little, or nothing, of God, yet can produce volumes and volumes on the
> > > smallest point of law and behavior.
> > >
> > > Those who argue there is a Law about our God need to examine what that
> > > belief tells them of their priorities and what they truly worship.
> > >
> > > I know that they can produce all kinds of smart people who agree with
> > them,
> > > so I recognize that the answer may not be as simple as I suggest.
> Forgive
> > > me of my indiscretion if my words give offense.
> > >
> > > George
> > >
> > > - Original Message -
> > > From: "Jim Cobabe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 11:31 PM
> > > Subject: RE: [ZION] Natural Law
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Another interesting reference to this question--
> > > >
> > > > God is the author of law, not its creation or its servant. All light
> and
> > > > all law emanate from him (see D&C 88:13). Indeed, "all kingdoms have a
> > > > law given; and there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the
> > > > which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is
> no
> > > > space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto every kingdom is
> > > > given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and
> > > > conditions" (D&C 88:36-38). Of G

Re: [ZION] Microsoft interview questions

[Jon Spencer]

Where were you people during the sixties, and have none of you ever gone to
a health food store?  Look at a vegan brownie, and odds'll getcha that it
has carob rather than cocoa.

I know we're not supposed to be OF the world, but every once in a while you
can go out into it!  :-)

Jon

P.S.  I dispise carob!

- Original Message -
From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Microsoft interview questions


I knew it was familiar for some reason, although I can't say I'd ever heard
of it
being used in place of or with cocoa (but it does explain one thing I
remember:
cans labelled "Karob" in German supermarkets next to the coffee and tea).
And I'm
sorry, I've already forgotten who it was who posted the excellent lttle
article on
carobs yesterday, because I wanted to add a comment to that.

Its other names are  "locust bean" and "St. John's Bread" in the belief that
when
it said in the NT that John the Baptist ate honey and locust, modern
translators
couldn't see him actually eating insects. Besides the yuck factor, they
thought it
wasn't kosher. However, locusts are indeed kosher, it turns out, (Leviticus
11:20-21) and the Greek word in the NT refers quite clearly to an insect.

So he really did eat bugs.

"Elmer L. Fairbank" wrote:

> At 19:45 12/18/2002 -0700, M Marc wrote:
> >There is a carob bean, actually, and I know it's grown in tropical
> >climates, but
> >that's about all I know about it. I'm not sure what they do with it,
except
> >perhaps use its oil (like canola, linseed or safflower).
>
> Haven't you ever had carob brownies?  It's often used around here as a
> cocoa substitute.  Dang, lad, you need to make a pilgrimage to Ithaca.
>
> Till
>
>

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"Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more
people
see than weigh." - Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
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Re: [ZION] Microsoft interview questions

[Jon Spencer]

I meant despise!

Jon

- Original Message -
From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Microsoft interview questions


I knew it was familiar for some reason, although I can't say I'd ever heard
of it
being used in place of or with cocoa (but it does explain one thing I
remember:
cans labelled "Karob" in German supermarkets next to the coffee and tea).
And I'm
sorry, I've already forgotten who it was who posted the excellent lttle
article on
carobs yesterday, because I wanted to add a comment to that.

Its other names are  "locust bean" and "St. John's Bread" in the belief that
when
it said in the NT that John the Baptist ate honey and locust, modern
translators
couldn't see him actually eating insects. Besides the yuck factor, they
thought it
wasn't kosher. However, locusts are indeed kosher, it turns out, (Leviticus
11:20-21) and the Greek word in the NT refers quite clearly to an insect.

So he really did eat bugs.

"Elmer L. Fairbank" wrote:

> At 19:45 12/18/2002 -0700, M Marc wrote:
> >There is a carob bean, actually, and I know it's grown in tropical
> >climates, but
> >that's about all I know about it. I'm not sure what they do with it,
except
> >perhaps use its oil (like canola, linseed or safflower).
>
> Haven't you ever had carob brownies?  It's often used around here as a
> cocoa substitute.  Dang, lad, you need to make a pilgrimage to Ithaca.
>
> Till
>
>

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Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

"Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more
people
see than weigh." - Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
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solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's
employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.


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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[Jon Spencer]

No.  He should have played golf, wherein you are actually fore-warned.

Jon

- Original Message -
From: "Chet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 2:46 PM
Subject: RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21


> Paul Osborne wrote:
> > Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin??
> >
> > Two of my most favorites. :-)
> >
> > I think had they lived a little later they would have been unfailing
> > arms
> > of the prophet Joseph Smith.
>
> This would have given him four more arms -- would he then have been
> better forewarned?
>
>
> *jeep!
>   --Chet (who is of the opinion that Joseph pretty much knew what was
> going on anyway)
> "Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you
> are doing the impossible."
>
>

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Re: [ZION] Article in "Science" on genetic diversity

[Marc A. Schindler]

In fact, their clusters are in different areas than what we would call "racial".
That is, there are several from different parts of Africa, for instance, as well
as a totally different group for Melanesians (who used to be considered blacks by
LDS until DOM's time).

Jim Cobabe wrote:

> Stephen Beecroft wrote:
> ---
> What?! Is this suggesting the outrageous proposition that
> commonly-defined racial characteristics are  genetically based?
> ---
>
> Spare your outrage, Stephen.
>
> The authors of the study _studiously_ refrain from using the term
> "race".  Instead they characterize unique population groups as
> "clusters".  One cannot help but notice, however, that the "clusters"
> indicated on the map correspond rather remarkably with traditional
> racial demographics, but that's beside the politically-correct point.
>
> One wonders if the authors might have been injured by such strenuous
> bending-over-backwards exertions.  :->
>
> ---
> Mij Ebaboc
>
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“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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Re: [ZION] Worship Christ

[Marc A. Schindler]

I certainly wouldn't object to that.

Paul Osborne wrote:

> >Interesting -- I think you might have me there, at least partially, as I
> was
> >unaware of the GBH quote. I suppose I should have defined the term more
> tightly
> >and say that we don't *pray* to Jesus Christ.
>
> Right. I can go along with this, Marc. However, you might recall that I
> said earlier that there are times in my life when I sneak a prayer to
> Jesus only without thinking of the Father. I wouldn't teach this at the
> church pulpit, or what not, but I am telling my friends (you) in private
> that sometimes (not often) I just want to focus my thoughts on Christ
> alone and tell him that I love him and need him-- he is my brother. This
> tone does come from the Book of Mormon. Don't get me wrong, most every
> prayer I utter is directed to the Father and I know that Christ is there
> too, BUT, there are times I feel a need to think solely of Christ and his
> atonement and if I think of the Father I get distracted. I have also had
> this experience of prayer with Heavenly Mother a few times when I just
> wanted to talk to her and no one else. Wow!! I won't get into it, it's
> too sacred.
>
> Anyway, its my own business and I'm just sharing a little about me. I'm
> not encouraging anyone to do as I do. Worship how or what you may
> according to the dictates of your own conscience. And if you guys don't
> like what I said-- Oh well, suit yourself.
>
> Paul O
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> 
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“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
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Re: [ZION] Iraq

[Jon Spencer]

This is perhaps a small correction, and I would assume this is what you
meant:  I am in support of a war against *Saddam*, hopefully with the
support of the Iraqi people.  I am grateful to our leaders for the use of
"smart" weapons, which will minimize the number of innocent deaths.  But for
those who want us to stay home because of the inevitable innocent deaths,
on you hands will be the deaths of tens of thousands of innocents joining in
with the hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis Saddam has already killed.

Jon

- Original Message -
From: "Paul Osborne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Iraq


> >Saddam will go.
> >
> >And as hard as it is to imagine, I guess I, too, could be wrong.
>
>
> You're not wrong this time. His days are numbered and the writing is on
> the wall. I'm in favor of a war with Iraq based on what I know about the
> situation.
>
> Paul O
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> 
> Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
> Only $9.95 per month!
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>

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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

[Jon Spencer]

Then, my friend, what is meant by the term eternal progression?  Are we
being lied to?

Jon

Paul Osborne wrote:

> >There is much to learn.  To complete the task requires an eternity on
> >the job.
>
>
> Not so. When God lays his hands upon my head and ordains me God Almighty
> there will be nothing that I don't know. The learning process will have
> ended.

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Re: [ZION] Worship Christ

[Paul Osborne]

>Also, if I recall correctly, didn't the Nephites worship
>Christ only to a point, after which he told them to worship the Father?


The Nephites worshipped Christ because he was the ETERNAL GOD and they
loved him with all their hearts. It is true that the mortal Jesus taught
the Jews how to pray to the Father and the resurrected Jesus in turn
taught the Nephites how to pray to the Father. This does not at all
diminish the worship we should have for Christ today.

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law

[Jim Cobabe]

A quote from the _Gospel Fundamentals_ manual, chapter 36.  I prefer 
this level of presentation when discussing the nature of our Heavenly 
Father.  The tone of our discussion strikes me as overly famililiar at 
times when we touch on the most sacred topics.  The Church manual 
material is substantive but simple, almost simplistic.  For me, this 
attitude exemplifies the highest degree of respect and reverence for 
Heavenly Father.



If we have faith in Jesus Christ and try to obey all His commandments, 
we will receive eternal life and become like our Father in Heaven.

Becoming like our Father in Heaven is like climbing a ladder. We must 
start at the bottom and climb each step until we reach the top. The 
Prophet Joseph Smith said that if we want to become like our Father in 
Heaven we must learn how He feels, thinks, and acts. When we understand 
these things about Him, we can then learn all other things about Him, 
until we know how to become as He is.

It will help us to remember that our Father in Heaven was once a man who 
lived on an earth, the same as we do. He became our Father in Heaven by 
overcoming problems, just as we have to do on this earth. However, the 
Prophet Joseph Smith said we will not learn everything we need to learn 
while in this world. It will take us a long time after we complete this 
life to know all the things we need to know in order to become like our 
Father in Heaven.

When we do learn to keep all of our Father in Heaven’s commandments, 
think how happy we will be as we return to Him and He tells us He is 
happy with the life we lived and we will become like Him and live with 
Him forever.


---
Mij Ebaboc

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Re: [ZION] Worship Christ

[Paul Osborne]

Marc
>I certainly wouldn't object to that.


You my friend, are indeed a Christian. :-)

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

[Paul Osborne]

>Then, my friend, what is meant by the term eternal progression?  Are we
>being lied to?
>
>Jon


No, we are not being lied to. You just don't understand what eternal
progression is, Jon. It is a state of never ending progress as worlds
come and go. The size of heavenly Father's kingdom grows with each
passing eternity and that is great progress. :-)

Paul O
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Re: [ZION] Where can the dead go; was Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[Jon Spencer]

I didn't ask for those who don't hold that opinion to post, I asked for
those who DO!

I know who made the post, and I do remember it quite well.  If no one fesses
up, then I guess they changed their mind!

Jon

Mark Gregson wrote:

>
> > This does bring up an interesting topic.  On this list, several members
> > seemed to claim that you could not get to the CK if you didn't do you
work
> > here on earth for yourself.
>
> I don't recall anyone even implying that.  I think we all understand this
basic doctrine pretty well: either you must be baptized and confirmed in
this life or have someone do the temple work for you before you can enter
the Celestial Kingdom.  That's clearly scriptural and official Church
doctrine.
>
> Some of us do have questions about the spirit world because we haven't
heard of any revelations to clarify things.  For example, since Mother
Theresa was not baptized does she go to spirit prison?  The scriptures do
imply "yes" but I think there is room for interpretation.  Since people live
varying degrees of righteousness or wickedness they can't all be in the
state of the wicked as described in the Book of Mormon; "in darkness, and a
state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of
God upon them".  We know, for example, that the signers of the Declaration
of Independence appeared in the St. George temple demanding that their
temple work be done.  So obviously their version of spirit prison was not
total as would presumably be the case with the truly wicked.
>
> =  Mark Gregson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  =
>
>
> --
> ___
> Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com
>
> Powered by Outblaze
>
>

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Re: [ZION] BYU bars use of R-rated movies

[Jon Spencer]

To perhaps clarify a point, all seminary teachers (and above) are official
signed-on-the-dotted-line volunteer CES employees.

Jon

Geoff FOWLER wrote:

> >>> Jim mentioned:
> > There also seem to be a number of CES employees
> > who aptly fit the description of "wolves among the
> > flock."
>
> >>> while Jon added:
> > And we have found some in our stake.  When they
> > are discovered, they are gone.  Now!
>
> While I can see how perhaps a few BYU professors have become,
> unfortunately, secularized in their thinking, I am truly shocked that
> CES faculty would fall to such levels. I should not be surprised,
> however - the Savior Himself testified of it. I guess I have been
> fortunate enough to have never met one of these wretched souls.

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RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law

[Stephen Beecroft]

-George-
> When God created this universe

-Jon-
> He did not create this universe. He caused it to be organized.
> Big difference!

The prophets and the scriptures are unanimous in declaring that God did, 
indeed, create the heavens and the earth. "Cause to be organized" is 
what "create" means, just like when you create an email or a songwriter 
creates a song. George is right in his usage.

Stephen

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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

[Paul Osborne]

I agree with with Stephen.

Paul O

On Sat, 21 Dec 2002 18:39:41 + Stephen Beecroft
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> -George-
> > When God created this universe
> 
> -Jon-
> > He did not create this universe. He caused it to be organized.
> > Big difference!
> 
> The prophets and the scriptures are unanimous in declaring that God 
> did, 
> indeed, create the heavens and the earth. "Cause to be organized" is 
> 
> what "create" means, just like when you create an email or a 
> songwriter 
> creates a song. George is right in his usage.
> 
> Stephen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [ZION] Notice from Listowner

[John W. Redelfs]

George Cobabe favored us with:

I have followed instructions, receiving a confirming email, but still do not
know the email address to submit posts to.  Will that be coming from
smartgroups in another notice forthwith? or do you have it to give to us?
Or have I been blind and just missed it?


To send mail to the new list at SmartGroups, send your post to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] --JWR

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Re: [ZION] Iraq

[Marc A. Schindler]

Why? Since when do those who prefer peace bear responsibility for others' actions?
Do we also bear the responsibility for the thousands of people who have died in
Kashmir simply because they were trying to exercise their right to a free vote in
a democracy (India) from the hands of those who would take this away from them
(Islamist groups based in Pakistan)?

Again I ask (and keep in mind it's a rhetorical question -- I'm not suggesting we
invade Pakistan), since every reason the US and the UK have given for the
necessity of armed conflict with Iraq applies in spades to Pakistan, why aren't we
talking about the invasion of Pakistan?

Are we also to be held responsible for the deaths in China due to the astonishing
record of the communist government there over the past half century?

Jon Spencer wrote:

> This is perhaps a small correction, and I would assume this is what you
> meant:  I am in support of a war against *Saddam*, hopefully with the
> support of the Iraqi people.  I am grateful to our leaders for the use of
> "smart" weapons, which will minimize the number of innocent deaths.  But for
> those who want us to stay home because of the inevitable innocent deaths,
> on you hands will be the deaths of tens of thousands of innocents joining in
> with the hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis Saddam has already killed.
>
> Jon
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Paul Osborne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 3:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [ZION] Iraq
>
> > >Saddam will go.
> > >
> > >And as hard as it is to imagine, I guess I, too, could be wrong.
> >
> >
> > You're not wrong this time. His days are numbered and the writing is on
> > the wall. I'm in favor of a war with Iraq based on what I know about the
> > situation.
> >
> > Paul O
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > 
> > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
> > Only $9.95 per month!
> > Visit www.juno.com
> >
> >
> 
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> >
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Marc A. Schindler
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“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

[John W. Redelfs]

Jon Spencer favored us with:

Then, my friend, what is meant by the term eternal progression?  Are we
being lied to?


Even though God is truly omniscient, and hence knows EVERYTHING and can no 
longer learn new things, he progresses by bringing to pass the immortality 
and eternal life of his children.  His progression will continue forever 
inasmuch as his posterity will continue forever.  This is the doctrine 
taught by Joseph Fielding Smith, Bruce R. McConkie, and many others among 
the Brethren during this past century.


John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
Laurie got offended that I used the word "puke." But to
me, that's what her dinner tasted like. --Jack Handy
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law

[John W. Redelfs]

Stephen Beecroft favored us with:

The prophets and the scriptures are unanimous in declaring that God did,
indeed, create the heavens and the earth. "Cause to be organized" is
what "create" means, just like when you create an email or a songwriter
creates a song. George is right in his usage.


Not when he uses it to mean create from nothing which is how the world uses 
the term.  --JWR

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Re: [ZION] Worship Christ

[John W. Redelfs]

Paul Osborne favored us with:

Bernard P. Brockbank, "The Living Christ," Ensign, May 1977, 26

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints worships a God and a
Jesus Christ with bodies, with parts, and with passions."


Which is not to say that we are to pray to Jesus Christ.  We are not 
supposed to do that. --JWR

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Re: Re:[ZION] World's Tallest Buildings

[John W. Redelfs]

Jon Spencer favored us with:

Wimps!  You're all wimps!


No, we are just modest and humble in spite of our reasons for being 
arrogant.  Wouldn't it be nice if our fellow Americans were the 
same?  Instead they indulge themselves in self-congratulations at every 
turn, and build skyscrapers to completely unneeded heights as a form of 
chest beating.


John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients.  But we
can't scoff at them personally, to their faces, and this is
what annoys me. --Jack Handy
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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Re: [ZION] the end

[John W. Redelfs]

Paul Osborne favored us with:

John,

What is the final day or hour when posts can be posted on the Zion list?


I haven't set an exact day, but it will probably be in 5 to 7 days after 
everyone has a chance to read their email telling them of the move. --JWR

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Re: [ZION] Worship Christ

[John W. Redelfs]

Paul Osborne favored us with:

"Both the Book of Mormon as scripture and Joseph Smith as a prophet bear
witness to Jesus Christ as Savior. The Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl
of Great Price bear that same great witness, as do all of the modern
prophets and apostles. Though all the world may say that Latter-day
Saints do not know or love or worship Jesus Christ, the truth is that we
do. If this is not enough to be counted as Christian, then that word has
lost its meaning."


The reconciliation between those who say we worship Jesus and other who say 
we must worship only the Father is this:  On group is using the word 
worship to mean "pray to," and the other is using a much broader definition 
of the term worship.  Like so many other words, worship has more than one 
meaning.  Hence, the two sides are arguing over semantics.   President 
Hinckley has never suggested that we should pray to Jesus.  Nor did Elder 
McConkie ever suggest that we should not adore Jesus Christ for what he has 
done in our behalf.  Both President Hinckley and Elder McConkie would agree 
that we are not to pray to Jesus, but that we are to pray to Father in the 
name of Jesus.


John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
Anytime I see something screech across a room and
latch onto someones neck, and the guy screams and
tries to get it off, I have to laugh, because what is that
thing. --Jack Handy
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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Re: [ZION] Worship Christ

[John W. Redelfs]

Marc A. Schindler favored us with:

Thanks for the references. I had in mind only one, and I'm too lazy to go 
look it
up, but I'm sure it's well known to list members, and that's BRMcC's 
famous "Seven
Deadly Heresies" talk. Also, if I recall correctly, didn't the Nephites 
worship
Christ only to a point, after which he told them to worship the Father?

Perhaps we should separate the terms "pray to" and "worship."

Amen.  This whole argument is a confusion between these two terms.  --JWR

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[ZION] Notice from Listowner

[John W. Redelfs]

The Zion list is moving.

Because of an unacceptable number of problems at Topica, I am moving the 
Zion list to SmartGroups. (http://www.smartgroups.com/index.cfm?)

Also, because the software at SmartGroups will not accept a list name of 
only four characters, while hosted at SmartGroups the Zion list will be 
known as ZionsBest.  I apologize for the name change.  It distresses me 
somewhat too.  But it is necessary.

Please send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Once the 
changeover is complete, the Zion list at Topica will be deleted.  Please 
don't get left behind.

Also, list members may move to the new host on the website listed above.

I apologize for any inconvenience in this move; but Topica has just become 
too unreliable as a host, and I hope that the list will work better at 
SmartGroups.

Your friend and brother,
John W. Redelfs, Listowner of Zion, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

[George Cobabe]

Jon, there is no difference.  In our theology creation means to organize.
At least that is what I meant. :-)

However, He was still the one that organized the Law for this universe.

George


- Original Message -
From: "Jon Spencer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law


> George the Babe wrote:
>
> >When God created this universe, and
> > this world, He created the Laws by which things work, which may be the
> same
> > as what His Father created or they may be different.  The bottom line is
> > that our Father is responsible for the Laws by which we live.
>
> He did not create this universe. He caused it to be organized.  Big
> difference!
>
> Jon
>
>

//
> ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
> ///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
>

/
>
>
>

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Re: [ZION] Natural Law

[George Cobabe]

Well, of course you are right, Marc, except that it is equally true that
there is no compulsion to worship anything at all.

My, tongue in cheek, suggestion was that it would seem natural to worship
the highest entity.

I believe the highest entity is God the Father, equal to many other Gods,
but not subservient to Law.

George


- Original Message -
From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law


But I don't agree that we're under any compulsion whatsoever to worship "the
highest entity or concept we can come up with." We're under "compulsion"
only to
worship God.

George Cobabe wrote:

> I do not see the connection between my quote and your comments.
>
> My earlier, not copied comments, suggested that we needed to worship the
> highest entity or concept we could come up with.  It was a rhetorical
> question attempting to point out the fallacy of believing that there was
> anything more powerful than God, even law.
>
> George
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 8:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law
>
> George Cobabe wrote:
>
> > You are absolutely right.  However we are to worship God as the supreme
> > entity.  How can we do that if He is subject to a higher force, and
> > therefore not the supreme entity.
> >
>
> A principle is not an entity. Let's revisit what Elder Joseph Fielding
Smith
> said:
> "This is an age when faith and the power of God should be greatly
increased,
> but
> to the contrary it is diminished and men boast in their own strength; yet
we
> see
> every day of our lives, the greatest of miracles. The flying of the
> airplane, the
> voice on the radio, the picture on the screen and television. There are
> thousands
> of miracles performed today, wonders that would astound our grandfathers
> could
> they suddenly see them. These miracles are as great as turning water into
> wine,
> raising the dead or anything else. A miracle is not, as many believe, the
> setting
> aside or overruling natural laws. Every miracle performed in Biblical days
> or now,
> is done on natural principles and in obedience to natural law. The healing
> of the
> sick, the raising of the dead, giving eyesight to the blind, whatever it
may
> be
> that is done by the power of God, is in accordance with natural law.
Because
> we do
> not understand how it is done, does not argue for the impossibility of it.
> Our
> Father in heaven knows many laws that are hidden from us. Man today has
> learned of
> many laws that our grandfathers did not understand. It is small business
for
> the
> critics to condemn the miracles in scriptures as though all the laws of
God
> have
> been revealed, and there could be no powers which they do not understand."
> (M:HO&D)
>
> >
> > That is my point.  That there is no higher entity, not even law.
> >
> > I don't know what you mean concerning the Romans, but to say that there
is
> a
> > higher power, even law, than God is an inconsistency in the doctrine of
> > those that believe such a thing. IMNSHO
> >
> > George
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 11:48 AM
> > Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law
> >
> > I'm afraid I don't see how it follows that we should worship the law. We
> > have been
> > told to worship God the Father. Period. Not even Jesus Christ -- God the
> > Father.
> > Worship is a person-to-person interaction as we understand it. It is the
> > Romans
> > who have to deal with the inherent inconsistencies in their theology.
> >
> > George Cobabe wrote:
> >
> > > Furthermore, if Natural Law is the great constant and above God, then
it
> > is
> > > the law we should worship.  If we choose to do so it is then we become
> > more
> > > like Protestants and Catholics, in that our object of worship becomes
> > > something without form, no body, parts, or passions.  The Law can fill
> the
> > > universe and yet dwell in our hearts.  We become more like Jews who
know
> > > little, or nothing, of God, yet can produce volumes and volumes on the
> > > smallest point of law and behavior.
> > >
> > > Those who argue there is a Law about our God need to examine what that
> > > belief tells them of their priorities and what they truly worship.
> > >
> > > I know that they can produce all kinds of smart people who agree with
> > them,
> > > so I recognize that the answer may not be as simple as I suggest.
> Forgive
> > > me of my indiscretion if my words give offense.
> > >
> > > George
> > >
> > > - Original Message -
> > > From: "Jim Cobabe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 11:31 PM
> > > Subject: RE: [ZION] Natural Law
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Another interesting reference to this question--
> > > >
> > > 

Re: [ZION] Natural Law

[Marc A. Schindler]

George Cobabe wrote:

> Well, of course you are right, Marc, except that it is equally true that
> there is no compulsion to worship anything at all.
>
> My, tongue in cheek, suggestion was that it would seem natural to worship
> the highest entity.
>

I think I got that, and I know that there's a limit to how literally I'm supposed
to take your comments, but considering anything other than a living being as an
"entity" is straight out of neo-hellenism (aka "the philosophies of men.")

>
> I believe the highest entity is God the Father, equal to many other Gods,
> but not subservient to Law.
>
> George
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 11:01 AM
> Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law
>
> But I don't agree that we're under any compulsion whatsoever to worship "the
> highest entity or concept we can come up with." We're under "compulsion"
> only to
> worship God.
>
> George Cobabe wrote:
>
> > I do not see the connection between my quote and your comments.
> >
> > My earlier, not copied comments, suggested that we needed to worship the
> > highest entity or concept we could come up with.  It was a rhetorical
> > question attempting to point out the fallacy of believing that there was
> > anything more powerful than God, even law.
> >
> > George
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 8:33 PM
> > Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law
> >
> > George Cobabe wrote:
> >
> > > You are absolutely right.  However we are to worship God as the supreme
> > > entity.  How can we do that if He is subject to a higher force, and
> > > therefore not the supreme entity.
> > >
> >
> > A principle is not an entity. Let's revisit what Elder Joseph Fielding
> Smith
> > said:
> > "This is an age when faith and the power of God should be greatly
> increased,
> > but
> > to the contrary it is diminished and men boast in their own strength; yet
> we
> > see
> > every day of our lives, the greatest of miracles. The flying of the
> > airplane, the
> > voice on the radio, the picture on the screen and television. There are
> > thousands
> > of miracles performed today, wonders that would astound our grandfathers
> > could
> > they suddenly see them. These miracles are as great as turning water into
> > wine,
> > raising the dead or anything else. A miracle is not, as many believe, the
> > setting
> > aside or overruling natural laws. Every miracle performed in Biblical days
> > or now,
> > is done on natural principles and in obedience to natural law. The healing
> > of the
> > sick, the raising of the dead, giving eyesight to the blind, whatever it
> may
> > be
> > that is done by the power of God, is in accordance with natural law.
> Because
> > we do
> > not understand how it is done, does not argue for the impossibility of it.
> > Our
> > Father in heaven knows many laws that are hidden from us. Man today has
> > learned of
> > many laws that our grandfathers did not understand. It is small business
> for
> > the
> > critics to condemn the miracles in scriptures as though all the laws of
> God
> > have
> > been revealed, and there could be no powers which they do not understand."
> > (M:HO&D)
> >
> > >
> > > That is my point.  That there is no higher entity, not even law.
> > >
> > > I don't know what you mean concerning the Romans, but to say that there
> is
> > a
> > > higher power, even law, than God is an inconsistency in the doctrine of
> > > those that believe such a thing. IMNSHO
> > >
> > > George
> > >
> > > - Original Message -
> > > From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 11:48 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law
> > >
> > > I'm afraid I don't see how it follows that we should worship the law. We
> > > have been
> > > told to worship God the Father. Period. Not even Jesus Christ -- God the
> > > Father.
> > > Worship is a person-to-person interaction as we understand it. It is the
> > > Romans
> > > who have to deal with the inherent inconsistencies in their theology.
> > >
> > > George Cobabe wrote:
> > >
> > > > Furthermore, if Natural Law is the great constant and above God, then
> it
> > > is
> > > > the law we should worship.  If we choose to do so it is then we become
> > > more
> > > > like Protestants and Catholics, in that our object of worship becomes
> > > > something without form, no body, parts, or passions.  The Law can fill
> > the
> > > > universe and yet dwell in our hearts.  We become more like Jews who
> know
> > > > little, or nothing, of God, yet can produce volumes and volumes on the
> > > > smallest point of law and behavior.
> > > >
> > > > Those who argue there is a Law about our God need to examine what that
> > > > belief tells them of their priorities and what they truly worship.
> > > >
> > > > I kn

[ZION] Notice from the Listowner

[John W. Redelfs]

I have a special request.  Will those of you who have already subscribed to 
the new list at SmartGroups.com please post and reply there 
only?  Complying with this request will help others on the Zion list make 
the decision to move over.  If we continue strong threads here, the move 
will be much more difficult.

To subscribe to the new list, send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


Your friend and brother,
John W. Redelfs, Listowner of Zion and Zionsbest, [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [ZION] Notice from the Listowner

[Paul Osborne]

>I have a special request.  Will those of you who have already subscribed
to 
>the new list at SmartGroups.com please post and reply there 
>only?  Complying with this request will help others on the Zion list
make 
>the decision to move over.  If we continue strong threads here, the move

>will be much more difficult.


I won't be posting any more material to the old Zion list. I've moved to
ZionsBest.

Farwell.

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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[ZION] Unsolicited, irrelevant opinion

[Stephen Beecroft]

IMO:

Topica is no worse than many other free mailing-list services, and is 
better than many. Its downtime is actually relatively small, all things 
considered. Zion has a history on Topica that now stretches back three 
and a half years -- quite a long time in Internet-speak. Finally, if the 
Topica Zion list is abandoned and deleted, all messages in the archive 
will be lost. I know of no good way to retrieve those from Topica 
beforehand. Now perhaps I overestimate the worth of those archives; I 
just know I find them useful. Personally, I'd rather stay with Topica, 
and probably will not move over with the list. But that's just my 
opinion, not worth the electrons it's printed with.

Stephen

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Re: [ZION] One small step for marriage

[Stacy Smith]

Yes!

Stacy.

At 01:49 PM 12/19/2002 -0700, you wrote:


Canada's Supreme Court has ruled that disposition of property after a
break-up of a common-law relationship is not subject to the same laws
regarding marriage, therefore implying a difference in law. A small
step, a small piece of good news.

<>



--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
more people see than weigh.” ­ Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
author’s employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.

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---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[Stacy Smith]

You're saying there really are modern deists?

Stacy.

At 04:48 PM 12/18/2002 -0900, you wrote:


Marc A. Schindler favored us with:

Thomas Jefferson was a deist; these days he would probably be a
Unitarian, and Benjamin Franklin was not an observing Christian, either, 
from what
I remember. I'm not saying he was an atheist, but iirc, his own thinking 
tended
towards deism as well (the difference between deism and theism is that 
both believe
there's a "higher power" but the deist doesn't believe it's a personal entity
whereas theism does).

This isn't quite right, Marc.  I used to be a Deist, and among Deists no 
such distinctions are made between a personal and impersonal God.  A Deist 
was one who believed only what all religions (of the day) held in common, 
ie. 1) a supreme being, 2) a system of punishments and rewards after 
death, etc.  Here is a passage from the current online Britannica that 
will set you straight:

---
Deists during the flowering of the doctrine, though their religious 
antagonists often attempted to force them into this difficult position. 
Historically, a distinction between theism and Deism has never had wide 
currency in European thought. As an example, when encyclopaedist Denis 
Diderot , in France, translated into French the works of Anthony Ashley 
Cooper, 3rd earl of Shaftesbury , one of the important English Deists, he 
often rendered “Deism” as théisme. The term is not in current usage as a 
metaphysical concept, and its significance is really limited to the 17th 
and 18th centuries.

[...]

In Lord Herbert's treatises five religious ideas were recognized as 
God-given and innate in the mind of man from the beginning of time: the 
belief in a supreme being, in the need for his worship , in the pursuit of 
a pious and virtuous life as the most desirable form of worship, in the 
need of repentance for sins, and in rewards and punishments in the next 
world. These fundamental religious beliefs, Herbert held, had been the 
possession of the first man, and they were basic to all the worthy 
positive institutionalized religions of later times. Thus, differences 
among sects and cults all over the world were usually benign, mere 
modifications of universally accepted truths; they were corruptions only 
when they led to barbarous practices such as the immolation of human 
victims and the slaughter of religious rivals.
---

So you see, Deists were left to themselves to discover the nature of God, 
whether he was personal or impersonal.  It is only accurate to say that 
they believed in a Supreme Being.

It is my understanding that most of our Founders were Deists.  Knowing as 
they did that the religions then extant were the irrational philosophies 
of men, they tried to strip away all the incrustations of sectarianism and 
return to the most fundamental basics common to all.  No wonder they 
joined the Church when they got a chance.  No wonder I did.

John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
"Atheistic humanism is the opiate of the self-described
intellectuals" --Uncle Bob
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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