George Cobabe wrote:
> Well, of course you are right, Marc, except that it is equally true that > there is no compulsion to worship anything at all. > > My, tongue in cheek, suggestion was that it would seem natural to worship > the highest entity. > I think I got that, and I know that there's a limit to how literally I'm supposed to take your comments, but considering anything other than a living being as an "entity" is straight out of neo-hellenism (aka "the philosophies of men.") > > I believe the highest entity is God the Father, equal to many other Gods, > but not subservient to Law. > > George > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 11:01 AM > Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law > > But I don't agree that we're under any compulsion whatsoever to worship "the > highest entity or concept we can come up with." We're under "compulsion" > only to > worship God. > > George Cobabe wrote: > > > I do not see the connection between my quote and your comments. > > > > My earlier, not copied comments, suggested that we needed to worship the > > highest entity or concept we could come up with. It was a rhetorical > > question attempting to point out the fallacy of believing that there was > > anything more powerful than God, even law. > > > > George > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 8:33 PM > > Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law > > > > George Cobabe wrote: > > > > > You are absolutely right. However we are to worship God as the supreme > > > entity. How can we do that if He is subject to a higher force, and > > > therefore not the supreme entity. > > > > > > > A principle is not an entity. Let's revisit what Elder Joseph Fielding > Smith > > said: > > "This is an age when faith and the power of God should be greatly > increased, > > but > > to the contrary it is diminished and men boast in their own strength; yet > we > > see > > every day of our lives, the greatest of miracles. The flying of the > > airplane, the > > voice on the radio, the picture on the screen and television. There are > > thousands > > of miracles performed today, wonders that would astound our grandfathers > > could > > they suddenly see them. These miracles are as great as turning water into > > wine, > > raising the dead or anything else. A miracle is not, as many believe, the > > setting > > aside or overruling natural laws. Every miracle performed in Biblical days > > or now, > > is done on natural principles and in obedience to natural law. The healing > > of the > > sick, the raising of the dead, giving eyesight to the blind, whatever it > may > > be > > that is done by the power of God, is in accordance with natural law. > Because > > we do > > not understand how it is done, does not argue for the impossibility of it. > > Our > > Father in heaven knows many laws that are hidden from us. Man today has > > learned of > > many laws that our grandfathers did not understand. It is small business > for > > the > > critics to condemn the miracles in scriptures as though all the laws of > God > > have > > been revealed, and there could be no powers which they do not understand." > > (M:HO&D) > > > > > > > > That is my point. That there is no higher entity, not even law. > > > > > > I don't know what you mean concerning the Romans, but to say that there > is > > a > > > higher power, even law, than God is an inconsistency in the doctrine of > > > those that believe such a thing. IMNSHO > > > > > > George > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 11:48 AM > > > Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law > > > > > > I'm afraid I don't see how it follows that we should worship the law. We > > > have been > > > told to worship God the Father. Period. Not even Jesus Christ -- God the > > > Father. > > > Worship is a person-to-person interaction as we understand it. It is the > > > Romans > > > who have to deal with the inherent inconsistencies in their theology. > > > > > > George Cobabe wrote: > > > > > > > Furthermore, if Natural Law is the great constant and above God, then > it > > > is > > > > the law we should worship. If we choose to do so it is then we become > > > more > > > > like Protestants and Catholics, in that our object of worship becomes > > > > something without form, no body, parts, or passions. The Law can fill > > the > > > > universe and yet dwell in our hearts. We become more like Jews who > know > > > > little, or nothing, of God, yet can produce volumes and volumes on the > > > > smallest point of law and behavior. > > > > > > > > Those who argue there is a Law about our God need to examine what that > > > > belief tells them of their priorities and what they truly worship. > > > > > > > > I know that they can produce all kinds of smart people who agree with > > > them, > > > > so I recognize that the answer may not be as simple as I suggest. > > Forgive > > > > me of my indiscretion if my words give offense. > > > > > > > > George > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Jim Cobabe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 11:31 PM > > > > Subject: RE: [ZION] Natural Law > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another interesting reference to this question-- > > > > > > > > > > God is the author of law, not its creation or its servant. All light > > and > > > > > all law emanate from him (see D&C 88:13). Indeed, "all kingdoms have > a > > > > > law given; and there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the > > > > > which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is > > no > > > > > space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto every kingdom > is > > > > > given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and > > > > > conditions" (D&C 88:36-38). Of God the revelation states, "He > > > > > comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all > > things > > > > > are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, > > and > > > > > is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things > > are > > > > > by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever" (D&C 88:41). > > > > > > > > > > Joseph Smith asked, "Can we suppose that He [God] has a kingdom > > without > > > > > laws? Or do we believe that it is composed of an innumerable company > > of > > > > > beings who are entirely beyond all law? Consequently have need of > > > > > nothing to govern or regulate them? Would not such ideas be a > reproach > > > > > to our Great Parent, and at variance with His glorious intelligence? > > > > > Would it not be asserting that man had found out a secret beyond > > Deity? > > > > > That he had learned that it was good to have laws, while God after > > > > > existing from eternity and having power to create man, had not found > > out > > > > > that it was proper to have laws for His government?" (Teachings of > the > > > > > Prophet Joseph Smith, 55). > > > > > > > > > > "God," Joseph Smith taught, "has made certain decrees which are > fixed > > > > > and immovable; for instance, God set the sun, the moon, and the > stars > > in > > > > > the heavens, and gave them their laws, conditions and bounds, which > > they > > > > > cannot pass, except by His commandments; they all move in perfect > > > > > harmony in their sphere and order, and are as lights, wonders and > > signs > > > > > unto us. The sea also has its bounds which it cannot pass. God has > set > > > > > many signs on the earth, as well as in the heavens; for instance, > the > > > > > oak of the forest, the fruit of the tree, the herb of the field, all > > > > > bear a sign that seed hath been planted there; for it is a decree of > > the > > > > > Lord that every tree, plant, and herb bearing seed should bring > forth > > of > > > > > its kind, and cannot come forth after any other law or principle" > > > > > (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 197-98). > > > > > > > > > > God is not a scientist. He does not harness law and then use it to > > bless > > > > > and govern his creations. God is the author and source of all law. > > Were > > > > > this not the case, the powers of evil could seek his overthrow > through > > > > > the discovery of unknown laws. We would live in endless peril. Our > > > > > prayers would then be for God, not to him, and scientists rather > than > > > > > prophets would hold the keys of salvation. > > > > > > > > > > True it is that God was once a man obtaining his exalted status by > > > > > obedience to the laws of his own eternal Father, but upon obtaining > > that > > > > > station he becomes the source of light and law to all that he > creates. > > > > > Following this same pattern, the resurrected Christ said to the > > > > > Nephites, "I am the law" (3 Ne. 15:9). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (Joseph Fielding McConkie, Answers: Straightforward Answers to > Tough > > > > > Gospel Questions [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1998], 167.) > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > Mij Ebaboc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > > > // > > > > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > > > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > > > / > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > > // > > > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > > > > > > > > //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > > / > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Marc A. Schindler > > > Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland > > > > > > "Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many > more > > > people > > > see than weigh." - Lord Chesterfield > > > > > > Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the > > > author > > > solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's > > > employer, > > > nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. > > > > > > > > > //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > > // > > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > > > > //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > > / > > > > > > > > > //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > // > > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > > > > //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > / > > > > > > > -- > > Marc A. Schindler > > Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland > > > > "Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more > > people > > see than weigh." - Lord Chesterfield > > > > Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the > > author > > solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's > > employer, > > nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. > > > > > //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > // > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > / > > > > > //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > // > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > / > > > > -- > Marc A. Schindler > Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland > > "Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more > people > see than weigh." - Lord Chesterfield > > Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the > author > solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's > employer, > nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. > > //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > / > > ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland “Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ==^^=============================================================== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===============================================================
