Well, of course you are right, Marc, except that it is equally true that there is no compulsion to worship anything at all.
My, tongue in cheek, suggestion was that it would seem natural to worship the highest entity. I believe the highest entity is God the Father, equal to many other Gods, but not subservient to Law. George ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 11:01 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law But I don't agree that we're under any compulsion whatsoever to worship "the highest entity or concept we can come up with." We're under "compulsion" only to worship God. George Cobabe wrote: > I do not see the connection between my quote and your comments. > > My earlier, not copied comments, suggested that we needed to worship the > highest entity or concept we could come up with. It was a rhetorical > question attempting to point out the fallacy of believing that there was > anything more powerful than God, even law. > > George > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 8:33 PM > Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law > > George Cobabe wrote: > > > You are absolutely right. However we are to worship God as the supreme > > entity. How can we do that if He is subject to a higher force, and > > therefore not the supreme entity. > > > > A principle is not an entity. Let's revisit what Elder Joseph Fielding Smith > said: > "This is an age when faith and the power of God should be greatly increased, > but > to the contrary it is diminished and men boast in their own strength; yet we > see > every day of our lives, the greatest of miracles. The flying of the > airplane, the > voice on the radio, the picture on the screen and television. There are > thousands > of miracles performed today, wonders that would astound our grandfathers > could > they suddenly see them. These miracles are as great as turning water into > wine, > raising the dead or anything else. A miracle is not, as many believe, the > setting > aside or overruling natural laws. Every miracle performed in Biblical days > or now, > is done on natural principles and in obedience to natural law. The healing > of the > sick, the raising of the dead, giving eyesight to the blind, whatever it may > be > that is done by the power of God, is in accordance with natural law. Because > we do > not understand how it is done, does not argue for the impossibility of it. > Our > Father in heaven knows many laws that are hidden from us. Man today has > learned of > many laws that our grandfathers did not understand. It is small business for > the > critics to condemn the miracles in scriptures as though all the laws of God > have > been revealed, and there could be no powers which they do not understand." > (M:HO&D) > > > > > That is my point. That there is no higher entity, not even law. > > > > I don't know what you mean concerning the Romans, but to say that there is > a > > higher power, even law, than God is an inconsistency in the doctrine of > > those that believe such a thing. IMNSHO > > > > George > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 11:48 AM > > Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law > > > > I'm afraid I don't see how it follows that we should worship the law. We > > have been > > told to worship God the Father. Period. Not even Jesus Christ -- God the > > Father. > > Worship is a person-to-person interaction as we understand it. It is the > > Romans > > who have to deal with the inherent inconsistencies in their theology. > > > > George Cobabe wrote: > > > > > Furthermore, if Natural Law is the great constant and above God, then it > > is > > > the law we should worship. If we choose to do so it is then we become > > more > > > like Protestants and Catholics, in that our object of worship becomes > > > something without form, no body, parts, or passions. The Law can fill > the > > > universe and yet dwell in our hearts. We become more like Jews who know > > > little, or nothing, of God, yet can produce volumes and volumes on the > > > smallest point of law and behavior. > > > > > > Those who argue there is a Law about our God need to examine what that > > > belief tells them of their priorities and what they truly worship. > > > > > > I know that they can produce all kinds of smart people who agree with > > them, > > > so I recognize that the answer may not be as simple as I suggest. > Forgive > > > me of my indiscretion if my words give offense. > > > > > > George > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Jim Cobabe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 11:31 PM > > > Subject: RE: [ZION] Natural Law > > > > > > > > > > > Another interesting reference to this question-- > > > > > > > > God is the author of law, not its creation or its servant. All light > and > > > > all law emanate from him (see D&C 88:13). Indeed, "all kingdoms have a > > > > law given; and there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the > > > > which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is > no > > > > space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto every kingdom is > > > > given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and > > > > conditions" (D&C 88:36-38). Of God the revelation states, "He > > > > comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all > things > > > > are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, > and > > > > is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things > are > > > > by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever" (D&C 88:41). > > > > > > > > Joseph Smith asked, "Can we suppose that He [God] has a kingdom > without > > > > laws? Or do we believe that it is composed of an innumerable company > of > > > > beings who are entirely beyond all law? Consequently have need of > > > > nothing to govern or regulate them? Would not such ideas be a reproach > > > > to our Great Parent, and at variance with His glorious intelligence? > > > > Would it not be asserting that man had found out a secret beyond > Deity? > > > > That he had learned that it was good to have laws, while God after > > > > existing from eternity and having power to create man, had not found > out > > > > that it was proper to have laws for His government?" (Teachings of the > > > > Prophet Joseph Smith, 55). > > > > > > > > "God," Joseph Smith taught, "has made certain decrees which are fixed > > > > and immovable; for instance, God set the sun, the moon, and the stars > in > > > > the heavens, and gave them their laws, conditions and bounds, which > they > > > > cannot pass, except by His commandments; they all move in perfect > > > > harmony in their sphere and order, and are as lights, wonders and > signs > > > > unto us. The sea also has its bounds which it cannot pass. God has set > > > > many signs on the earth, as well as in the heavens; for instance, the > > > > oak of the forest, the fruit of the tree, the herb of the field, all > > > > bear a sign that seed hath been planted there; for it is a decree of > the > > > > Lord that every tree, plant, and herb bearing seed should bring forth > of > > > > its kind, and cannot come forth after any other law or principle" > > > > (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 197-98). > > > > > > > > God is not a scientist. He does not harness law and then use it to > bless > > > > and govern his creations. God is the author and source of all law. > Were > > > > this not the case, the powers of evil could seek his overthrow through > > > > the discovery of unknown laws. We would live in endless peril. Our > > > > prayers would then be for God, not to him, and scientists rather than > > > > prophets would hold the keys of salvation. > > > > > > > > True it is that God was once a man obtaining his exalted status by > > > > obedience to the laws of his own eternal Father, but upon obtaining > that > > > > station he becomes the source of light and law to all that he creates. > > > > Following this same pattern, the resurrected Christ said to the > > > > Nephites, "I am the law" (3 Ne. 15:9). > > > > > > > > > > > > (Joseph Fielding McConkie, Answers: Straightforward Answers to Tough > > > > Gospel Questions [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1998], 167.) > > > > > > > > --- > > > > Mij Ebaboc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > > // > > > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > > > > > > > > //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > > / > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > // > > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > > > > //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > / > > > > > > > -- > > Marc A. Schindler > > Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland > > > > "Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more > > people > > see than weigh." - Lord Chesterfield > > > > Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the > > author > > solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's > > employer, > > nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. > > > > > //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > // > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > / > > > > > //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > // > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > / > > > > -- > Marc A. Schindler > Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland > > "Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more > people > see than weigh." - Lord Chesterfield > > Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the > author > solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's > employer, > nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. > > //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > / > > //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh." - Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// / ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ==^================================================================ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^================================================================
