RE: [ZION] Worth reiterating...
No, but I know the guy. Don't agree with him on everything. But all I can say is I cannot judge you, Ron. Only your words. And if you feel offended by my judging of your words, then either I am truly misunderstanding them (as are others, I might add), you are failing at putting your true feelings/intentions down in words, or you are saying what you mean and are offended because my words cut to the core? I am not sorry for my words against gay marriage or gay activities of any kind. I pray for those who have this illness (I see it on the same level as drug addiction or alcoholism, but as a graver sin). But I don't cut them slack simply because they have several television programs on now that showcase them. Nor do I cut them slack because they have a victim mentality. They are in need of repentance, much more than they need a kind word from me. I don't want to make them feel good in their current circumstances, just so they can burn in hell later for not repenting. Recognition of an addiction is the first step toward resolution. And with addicts of any kind, it is a difficult row to hoe; but one they must hoe regardless of any circumstances. But to ignore their actions and lifestyles is to encourage them to greater demands, until they no longer are on the fringes, but in the center of the attention. The BoM shows that slippery slope, and I don't think I need to be involved in it. As with Jacob, if I want to have my garments clean from others' sins, I must speak out boldly against serious sins, whether it is popular or not, whether it is enjoyable to do or not. I don't know how you feel on things, Ron; because you say one thing, but then your words seem to contradict. Or at least your words portray a willingness to ignore others' sins because you fear to appear judgmental. If I'm misreading this, please let me know, because I do want to understand your position. But if your words say something I disagree with, I'll be clear to question those words in order to get you to clarify (which I must admit, seems to be a hard thing for you to do, as you usually waive off opportunities to specify what you really mean). If I agree, I'll say I agree. If I totally disagree, I will attempt to be kind, but I may show harshness to words that contradict themselves, as I feel you have done in the discussion with gay marriage. Gary Smith Ron Scott wrote: > > Are you related to Red Davis? > > >-Original Message- > >From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 4:31 PM > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: RE: [ZION] Worth reiterating... > > > > > >So are you or are you not saying that bestiality is > >okay? If the state > >gets out of the marriage business and some strange > >religion chooses to > >marry off its virgins to animals, is that then > >something that should be > >lawful, simply because the government isn't into > >marriage issues? > > > >I see an extremely slippery slope for society to slide > >down if it > >doesn't have some controls. > > > >While I don't necessarily want the federal government > >to make laws on > >marriage, I do want the states to be able to control > >their own destiny. > >If Massachusetts wants gay marriage, that is up to Mass. But it > >shouldn't force itself upon any other state that refuses it. > > > >Gary Smith > > > >Ron Scott wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> >-Original Message- > >> >From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 2:29 PM > >> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >Subject: RE: [ZION] Worth reiterating... > >> > > >> > > >> >RB Scott wrote: > >> >>I do not support extramarital sex of > >> >>any kind. > >> > > >> >What about sex within marriage if marriage is redefined > >> >to permit a man to > >> >marry his German Shepherd or his boy friend? --JWR > >> > >> > >> Don't ask absurd questions unless you want absurd > >answers. I've > >> clearly stated that I am opposed to the state > >defining marriage, > >> which I regard as a religious covenant. It seems to > >me that we > >> have long acknowledged that what is permissible under > >the laws of > >> the land may not be permissible in God's eyes. > >> > >> RBS > >> > >> > > > > > > > >Ger
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
And I don't disagree with all people receiving equal treatment under the law. Nothing says a gay cannot marry someone of the opposite sex, just as all have that same exact opportunity. I do think the government, especially federal, needs to go (as Steven mentioned) to either a flat tax, or more preferably the sales tax. The only issues would be government employee health programs, which if we reduce government severely, will reduce that issue and the cost of it regardless of which way it goes. And should government open things up then to force my military retirement program to include my family cat, as she is definitely a "part of the family"??? Gary Smith Ron Scott wrote: > > Black ministers should speak their minds. However, as the > discussion was about "activist judges" I will point out that > major civil rights decisions were written by "activist judges." > The nation is the better for their activity. I'll stick by my > assertion that "activist" goes with the assignment to the Supreme > Court and appellate courts. > > On the other subject, please give me an example of the 200-year > history of laws/legal interpretations that define marriage. > > Finally, I agree with the black ministers: gays are not entitled > to be classified as a "minority group." Nevertheless, individuals > are also entitled to seek the full protection of the law, as > Steven will confirm. > > RBS > > > >-Original Message- > >From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 4:26 PM > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! > > > > > >Okay, how about 200+ years of laws being interpreted a > >certain way, only > >to have judges granting new "rights" to certain > >minority groups. There > >are a lot of black ministers meeting in Atlanta today > >to fight the gay > >marriage acts in Georgia. They are demanding that gays > >not equate their > >movement with Civil Rights, since gays are not being > >forced to drink > >from a separate water fountain, sit in the back of the > >bus, or prevented > >from voting. Nor have they been enslaved. > > > >When judges ignore the rights of the majority, in favor > >of only the > >minority, then we have a serious problem. > > > >Gary Smith > > > > > >Ron Scott wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> >-Original Message- > >> >From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 11:39 AM > >> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! > >> > > >> > > >> >Just because a judge is an activist judge, does not > >make him a > >> >thoughtful one.< > >> > >> I'm growing weary of the tiresome assumption that "activist > >> judge" is a negative description. By definition any appellate > >> judge worth his gavel is an "activist judge" because > >he is often > >> asked to interpret constitutional law. I daresay > >that one man's > >> "activist judge" is another's "strict constitutionalist." I > >> recommend the following: instead of tossing about meaningless > >> catch phrases, spend more time explaining what you mean, > >> demonstrating why a particular court's decision violates the > >> spirit and intent of the U.S. Constitution. > >> > >> > >> RBS > >> > >> > > > > > > > >Gerald (Gary) Smith > >geraldsmith@ juno.com > >http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom > > > > > >// > >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > >/ > --- > > > > > > Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
I think we should go for both of them. If one fails, we have an alternative method. As it is, there probably will not be a perfect solution, but in this case some solution may be better than allowing SSM from proliferating. Gary Smith Steven Montgomery wrote: > > At 02:05 PM 3/23/2004, you wrote: > > >Tell us how you feel about the amendment now that we know there's > >a move afoot to change the language? What's Wilkins > >reaction to same? This thing is beginning to feel like an > >election year stunt gone haywire. > > > >RBS > > The marriage amendment is doomed to failure. That's my opinion and how I > > feel. That's exactly why I support the never mentioned > alternative--urging > Congress to use their powers under article III, section 2 to limit the > jurisdiction of federal courts. > > > > -- > Steven Montgomery > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Far on the right, her dogs foul Scylla hides:Charybdis roaring on the > left presides,And in her greedy whirlpool sucks the tides;Then spouts > them from below: with fury driv'n,The waves mount up and wash the face > of heav'n.But Scylla from her den, with open jaws,The sinking vessel in > her eddy draws,Then dashes on the rocks--Virgil > Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Worth reiterating...
So, in effect, you are not opposing anything. You are simply giving up on the fight against moral crimes against society. On the same note then, why do we not have the state get out of managing crimes altogether. Let it all be resolved in the civilian courts. Someone murdered? Why have prisons, when we can just have the family sue the person! Or, perhaps the family will thank the murderer for doing in a crummy member of the family! President Hinckley wrote a book a few years ago entitled, "Standing for Something." If taking a stance means we raise the white flag, then we may as well just condemn all the world to despair and sin. Gary Smith Ron Scott wrote: > > > > > >Tell us more about your "methods for opposing" same-sex > >marriage. --JWR< > > I have done this before. I support the proposition that the state > should get out of sanctioning marriages altogether and should, > therefore ( as I noted in an earlier post today) draft > legislation that carefully and consistently defines partnerships > it will designate as bonafide domestic partnerships. Churches may > choose (or not) to bless such partnerships as "marriages." I > also think considerable effort must be spent determining how such > changes affect free speech in public settings and how they will > be represented/taught in primary and secondary public schools. > > RBS > > > > >// > >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > >/ > -- > > > > > Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Worth reiterating...
So are you or are you not saying that bestiality is okay? If the state gets out of the marriage business and some strange religion chooses to marry off its virgins to animals, is that then something that should be lawful, simply because the government isn't into marriage issues? I see an extremely slippery slope for society to slide down if it doesn't have some controls. While I don't necessarily want the federal government to make laws on marriage, I do want the states to be able to control their own destiny. If Massachusetts wants gay marriage, that is up to Mass. But it shouldn't force itself upon any other state that refuses it. Gary Smith Ron Scott wrote: > > > > >-Original Message- > >From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 2:29 PM > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: RE: [ZION] Worth reiterating... > > > > > >RB Scott wrote: > >>I do not support extramarital sex of > >>any kind. > > > >What about sex within marriage if marriage is redefined > >to permit a man to > >marry his German Shepherd or his boy friend? --JWR > > > Don't ask absurd questions unless you want absurd answers. I've > clearly stated that I am opposed to the state defining marriage, > which I regard as a religious covenant. It seems to me that we > have long acknowledged that what is permissible under the laws of > the land may not be permissible in God's eyes. > > RBS > > Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Okay, how about 200+ years of laws being interpreted a certain way, only to have judges granting new "rights" to certain minority groups. There are a lot of black ministers meeting in Atlanta today to fight the gay marriage acts in Georgia. They are demanding that gays not equate their movement with Civil Rights, since gays are not being forced to drink from a separate water fountain, sit in the back of the bus, or prevented from voting. Nor have they been enslaved. When judges ignore the rights of the majority, in favor of only the minority, then we have a serious problem. Gary Smith Ron Scott wrote: > > > > >-Original Message----- > >From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 11:39 AM > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! > > > > > >Just because a judge is an activist judge, does not make him a > >thoughtful one.< > > I'm growing weary of the tiresome assumption that "activist > judge" is a negative description. By definition any appellate > judge worth his gavel is an "activist judge" because he is often > asked to interpret constitutional law. I daresay that one man's > "activist judge" is another's "strict constitutionalist." I > recommend the following: instead of tossing about meaningless > catch phrases, spend more time explaining what you mean, > demonstrating why a particular court's decision violates the > spirit and intent of the U.S. Constitution. > > > RBS > > Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
But only if the current Constitutional powers are obeyed and honored. When we have mayors in San Francisco and elsewhere giving out marriage certificates in defiance of the law, then what piece of paper is there that can establish the law? And when judges overstep their proper role and legislate from the bench, then what happens if they ignore Congress? Or what happens if Congress does not have the cajones to moderate the courts? Pushing an amendment gives them reason to act on the lesser action of moderating the courts. Without the impetus given of an amendment, we have no pressure on Congress to act. So, even if it doesn't pass, or it takes years, I'm for the amendment going forth in discussion; if only to get Congress to do its duty. Gary Smith Steven Montgomery wrote: > > At 08:29 AM 3/23/2004, Ron Scott wrote: > > > >Obviously these "thoughtful judges" are simply > > >wrong--in light of the > > >Church's teachings on this subject, as well documented by Jim. > > > >Must I point out to you, of all people, that church teachings are > >not part of the U.S. Constitution, which is the guide that judges > >have pledged to support and uphold. It's quite obvious that the > >those who support the amendment also believe that the U.S. > >Constitution does not give judges sufficient guidance on the > >matter. Otherwise, an amendment would not be necessary. > > > >RBS > > Powers not given are powers denied. See the 10th Amendment: > > > The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor > prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, > or > to the people. > > > I do agree with you, that an amendment is not necessary. > > > > -- > Steven Montgomery > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Moral Anarchy is the seedbed of Tyranny--R. W. (Bob) Lee > Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Just because a judge is an activist judge, does not make him a thoughtful one. Nor does it make him right. Nor does it mean he is following the Constitution. If they were to gage Constitutionality by the standard set by our Founding Fathers, they would have no question on the issue of homosexuality. In fact, they probably would have to reinstitute laws against it! It is my belief that the prophecy sometimes given to Joseph Smith, but definitely stated by Pres Benson, that the Constitution would hang by a thread and if it is to be saved it will be by the Elders of Israel, refers to homosexuality. John Adams and others have stated that the Constitution is for a moral people and none other. If we allow homosexuality to be normalized, then we will be giving up our moral clarity in exchange for a claim to freedom (in reality: licentiousness). We may as well claim freedom for molesting children and animals as to use this lame expression for homosexuality. Pres Packer once taught that we cannot use one virtue to beat up on another. Claims of freedom cannot be used to destroy other virtues, at least not without divine consequence. I believe the Church is standing up on this issue in many places because it is the key to saving the Constitution for a moral people, and for leaving it with some boundaries within which freedom can be enjoyed. Gary Smith Ron Scott wrote: > > > > >-Original Message- > >From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 10:10 AM > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! > > > > > >At 05:24 PM 3/22/2004, Ron Scott wrote in response to > >Jim Cobabe: > > > >> >Equal protection is already afforded in our laws, for > >> >legitimate and > >> >traditional marriage. Nothing in the constitution > >> >envisions the > >> >degraded definition of "marriage" that encompasses any > >> >particular union > >> >of convenience, affection, devotion, or animal > >> >attraction. < > >> > >>It seems that some equally thoughtful judges in > >Massachusetts and > >>elsewhere disagree with you. By proposing the constitutional > >>amendment, the proposers themselves and supporters > >indicate that > >>they too don't agree with you. > > > >Obviously these "thoughtful judges" are simply > >wrong--in light of the > >Church's teachings on this subject, as well documented by Jim. > > Must I point out to you, of all people, that church teachings are > not part of the U.S. Constitution, which is the guide that judges > have pledged to support and uphold. It's quite obvious that the > those who support the amendment also believe that the U.S. > Constitution does not give judges sufficient guidance on the > matter. Otherwise, an amendment would not be necessary. > > RBS > > Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
First, the father should be the same individual for both children. The difference being one child is willing to live a higher law, with the other needing to be prodded along. I didn't focus on the Law of Moses. I focused on eternal laws of God. You'll note that I not only quoted from the Old Testament, but also from the D&C, which clearly is not Mosaic in nature. When Christ tells us in D&C 19 to repent or suffer even as he did, regardless of whether the punishment is a natural cause or not, Christ set the bar. Repentance is a requirement of the Celestial Kingdom, and so is a requirement of Celestial Law. Seemingly, there is more mercy in the law of Christ than in the Mosaic Law. But this is only true on physical punishment. Spiritually, the requirements for Celestial glory is much higher than that for the Terrestrial (Mosaic Law) glory. So, to pretend that there are two fathers, when in reality there is one, doesn't work. Second, it is a matter of God giving a lower law to children who aren't ready to live the higher law. Of your own children, what is the age limit you give to drive a car? Are some allowed to stay up later than others? How about dating age? You see, even we give differing rules to our own children, based upon age and maturity. So also does God. While our smallest children may not understand the nuances of a lecture, they will understand physical disciplining, even if it is to stand them in a corner or timeout. Meanwhile, a more mature child may get enough out of just a discussion or request. We adjust the rules and how we mete them out according to maturity, ability and willingness to live them. With these as guidelines, I'd change your parable to one father of two boys. One boy is rather mature, while the other is childish. One requires a stern hand (not necessarily a swipe against the face), while the other follows closely the guidance given. The Father does show love to both children, and reminds them of it continually (even as the Lord told ancient Israel constantly through Isaiah and others). The younger child eventually learns from the chastising that there is a better way - obeying out of love, rather than fear. Gary Smith Jonathan Scott wrote: > > It's not about either of you. You two were having a > discussion about the difference between the law of Christ and the law > of Moses. Ron's take seemed to be that the focus with Christ's plan > was in forgiveness and repentance. Your take seemed to focus on the > whole punishment aspect of the law of Moses. The part of the puzzle > that I felt wasn't being discussed was that the "punishments" may not > be punishments that God will be giving out personally, but rather > punishments that natural consequences will be dealing out. Seeing > the punishments in this way puts God as our defender and mentor > rather than as some kind of a two-faced psycho out there telling us > how much he loves us, but at the same time tossing out huge and > cumbersome commandments for us to follow and happily tossing the > disobedient into huge lakes of fire and brimstone. > In my story, both of the fathers cared deeply for their > children. But, because one of the sons was literally but unknowingly > on his death bed, the urgency of it all demanded that his father > resort to drastic measures to save him. What the father did may have > looked overly harsh, but compared with an early death, it wasn't. At > the very least, what the father did gave his son more time. > I don't condone physical abuse of children. It was just for > the sake of the allegory. The law of Moses was very definitely > unpleasant and I couldn't think of a different way to portray it in > the story. > > >I didn't quite get it either. Are Ron and I the grimy kids, or the > >fathers in this story? And if so, would Ron be the kind-hearted father? > >I don't recall ever striking my kids like the first father, so I know it > >doesn't apply to me, however I also wasn't so neglectful as he was to > >just say a few words and then walk off. My kids cleaned their rooms > >because it was expected of them, and if they didn't do it, they were > >punished (groundings, etc). > >I see God doing the same thing. Yes, occasionally our actions create > >their own illness/punishment, but on many occasions, God brings his > >wrath down upon his children. If you don't believe it, just read the > >scriptures. As it is, the 2nd Coming is described as the Lord coming in > >red clothing to stomp the grapes of the vineyard with a fury. > >Yet, there is also a softer side to God, as he patiently works with each > >of us--as long as we are willing to be worked upon. > > > >So, portraying God as either a harsh taskmaster on the one hand or as a > >milquetoast on the other is to paint God as being two dimensional. He > >isn't either of these, yet is both of them. > > > >And as I raised my children, I used both methods. And as I wo
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
And you'll note Ron, that I have never judged you, only your words. Gary Smith Ron Scott wrote: > > > > The first reference was to Gary Smith, who is not my bishop, nor > is he an appointed judge in Israel. > > Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
d. On the boy's face there > >was a rash. And when the father entered, the boy > >seemed to not be able to lay comfortably amidst > >the garbage. His body seemed to be in pain. > > "Son, the pain that you are feeling and > >that rash that is on your face both come from the > >garbage that you live amongst. If you clean, > >your body will heal. Please clean. I love you." > > The son, understanding somewhat the > >message of his father stood from his bed and > >began to clean. > > The father smiled and left. > > > > The first boy managed to clean his room > >before his father returned and therefore wasn't > >beaten to pieces by him. As you can probably > >guess, that boy never loved his father. He was > >too afraid of him to love him. And so he lived > >the rest of his days in fear. He was never very > >happy. And he was never grateful for the health > >and long life that his father had given him. > > The second boy struggled with cleaning > >his entire days. After years of filth, sickness, > >and inconvenience though, the boy began to > >understand and to change. The boy eventually > >learned to clean of his own free will and loved > >his father for having cared enough about him to > >teach him. He had health and a long life and > >loved his father till the end of his days. > > > > > > > >> >-Original Message- > >>>From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 12:04 PM > >>>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! > >>> > >>> > >>>That's a cop out. A touchy, feely, liberal cop out. > >>>You either need to > >> >defend your position, or give ground.< > >> > >>Oh phooey. You're itching for a fight and I'm not going to give > >>you one, no matter what names you call me or how you twist my > >>words. > >> > >>As I noted earlier, I emphasize the "teaching" > >instructions from > >>Christ; you emphasize the "repentance" message. Both > >lead to the > >>same end. I just happen to think my way is more productive. > >>You're entitled to do as you will. Have a good time. I'd argue > >>that teaching effectively always provokes repentance whereas > >>crying "repentance" from the rooftops does not always provoke > >>learning and true repentance. By the way, the last thing Christ > >>did on this earth was "forgive." > >> > >>Ron Scott > >> > >> > >> > >>>The Bible is VERY clear that Christ preached > >>>repentance. In Matthew > >>>4:17, it tells us that "From that time Jesus began to > >>>preach, and to > >>>say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." > >>> > >>>This is literally the first thing he did after baptism > >>>and his 40 day > >>>fast. > >>> > >>>What was the last thing Jesus did? He stood with his > >>>disciples and told > >>>them: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, > >>>baptizing them in the > >>>name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: > >>>Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have > >>>ccommanded you: > >>>and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the > >>>world. Amen." > >>>(Matthew 28:19-20). And what did he command them to > >>>teach? Repentance. > >>> > >>>How about in our day? Let's try D&C 19 on for size: > >>>13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the > >>>acommandments which > >>>you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph > >>>Smith, Jun., in my > >>>name; > >>>14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them; > >>>15 Therefore I command you to repentrepent, lest I > >>>asmite you by the > >>>rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and > >>>your bsufferings > >>>be sorehow sore you know not, how exquisite you know > >>>not, yea, how hard > >>>to bear you know not. > >>>16 For behold, I, God, have asuffered these things for > >>>all, that they > >>>might not bsuffer if they would crepent; > >>>17 But if they would not repent they must asuffer even as I
[ZION] Vote Now!
To continue the discussion with Jack and how we are affecting the culture in the Middle East, let me quote today's Best of the Web from the WSJ: The Road to Damascus http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/20/international/middleeast/20SYRI.html?ei =5007&en=4d8abf351fb79399&ex=1395118800&partner=USERLAND&pagewanted=all&p osition In a story it buried in its Saturday edition, the New York Times reports that Iraq's liberation is emboldening opponents of the world's sole remaining Baathist dictatorship, in Syria: *** QUOTE *** A year ago, it would have been inconceivable for a citizen of Syria, run by the Baath Party of President Bashar al-Assad, to make a documentary film with the working title, "Fifteen Reasons Why I Hate the Baath." Yet watching the overthrow of Saddam Hussein across the border in Iraq prompted Omar Amiralay to do just that. "It gave me the courage to do it," he said. "When you see one of the two Baath parties broken, collapsing, you can only hope that it will be the turn of the Syrian Baath next," he added, having just completed the film, eventually called "A Flood in Baath Country," for a European arts channel. "The myth of having to live under despots for eternity collapsed." *** END QUOTE *** Gary: I'd say that cultures of fear can be replaced with cultures that love freedom and hope. Here's one perfect example of a sub culture that was repressed by the Baathists beginning to emerge in the light of freedom. Gary Smith // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Only he can fully judge us, but the Lord calls upon mankind to judge. Why else have judges in Israel? And we can often tell if a person has repented or not, by whether they have abandoned their sins. Someone living in a gay relationship and pushing for gay rights has not abandoned his sins, therefore, has not fully repented. Gary Smith Ron Scott wrote: > > > Ron Scott: > > Did I suggest otherwise? I don't think so. I'll suggest that > repentance is between the sinner and the Lord. Period. Only the > Lord knows "true repentance" and only the Lord is capable of > judging us according to all of our good works and of offering all > of us His grace -- after all we can do for ourselves. Did I > misunderstand Him? > > RBS > > Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
That's a cop out. A touchy, feely, liberal cop out. You either need to defend your position, or give ground. The Bible is VERY clear that Christ preached repentance. In Matthew 4:17, it tells us that "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." This is literally the first thing he did after baptism and his 40 day fast. What was the last thing Jesus did? He stood with his disciples and told them: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have ccommanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." (Matthew 28:19-20). And what did he command them to teach? Repentance. How about in our day? Let's try D&C 19 on for size: 13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the acommandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name; 14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them; 15 Therefore I command you to repentrepent, lest I asmite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your bsufferings be sorehow sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not. 16 For behold, I, God, have asuffered these things for all, that they might not bsuffer if they would crepent; 17 But if they would not repent they must asuffer even as I" So, while he will forgive IF we repent, we must suffer even as He did, if we do not. In fact the blessing of forgiveness and mercy is something I truly hope and wish for, but I don't gamble on it. I work for my salvation, repenting as fast and as hard as I can, to ensure I merit that forgiveness. As to those who believe Christ is super-forgiving of sinners, let's see what Nephi says in 2Nephi28: "8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be bmerry; nevertheless, fear Godhe will justify in committing a little sin; yea, elie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a fpit for thy neighbor; there is gno harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God. 9 Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish cdoctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark. 10 And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them. 11 Yea, they have all gone out of the away; they have become corrupted. 12 Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted, and their churches are lifted up; because of pride they are puffed up." So, Nephi tells us that some in the last days are going to push the extreme forgiveness idea of Christ. I'm sure you aren't as extreme as some evangelicals who think that a mere belief in Christ merits exaltation. But such are called false teachers with false doctrine. And, in fact, the blood of the saints shall cry against them! Now, I believe God is very forgiving. After all, he offers a kingdom of glory to almost all his children. However, that does not extend to exaltation. D&C 76 describes the exalted as the valiant ones, not the wishy-washy. In Revelation, God says he will spew the lukewarm out, so as to give us no misgivings as to what is required for exaltation. Now, just where are these scriptures that you seem to believe in? And no, it isn't a matter of semantics. We agree that Christ is merciful, but modern prophets have also told us that mercy cannot rob justice. Gary Smith Ron Scott wrote: > > Gary: > > Look, I don't think we're ever going to agree. I'm probably as > aware as you are as to what God taught and what he didn't. I > think are differences are in approach. I'm inclined to teach the > gospel, you seem inclined to preach repentance. I'm inclined to > believe that God must be a pretty forgiving God if he's willing > to forgive the sins of repentant sinners like you and me. I > believe that God wants to include as many people as He possibly > can...and that it's my job to do my bit to ensure the roster is > as large as possible. You take a different tack. Good luck to > you. Our purposes are the same, more or less even if our methods > are different. > > Ron > > >-Original Message- > >From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2004 1:42 PM > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: [ZION] Vote Now! > > > > > >How about his prophecy that Jerusa
[ZION] Vote Now
My comments intermingled below: Jack wrote: This is interesting info, Gary, but I doubt that it applies to this discussion. Although business traditions are mercurial, cultural traditions tend to strengthen exponentially from generation to generation. The hand that rocks the cradle, etc. I find it highly doubtful that these traditions can be changed in a few years. Gary: Any group, whether a nation, community, business, or family has culture. And the way cultures interact, adapt, fight, etc, are all the same, regardless of the unit/organization. The only difference is the time span required for change to occur. BTW, I have a BS in Management and a MA in Teaching/History; so I am able to compare events from both business (organizational behavior) with nations (national behavior). Jack: Why didn't the Iraqis rise and destroy Saddam of their own accord? Because as a people, they were willing to resign themselves to his rule. They have been resigning themselves to autocrats for a long, long time. Gary: Actually, there are two reasons. First, people have tried rising up against Saddam in the past. He has had many assassination attempts against him over the years. He's just been extremely successful in squashing the opposition. One of his sons-in-law fled the country a decade ago, gave us info on him. After several years, he was told he was forgiven and to return; which he did, only to be beheaded. When the Shiites in southern Iraq tried rebellion after the first Gulf War, they were slaughtered by the hundreds of thousands. The Kurds also tried breaking free, only to be gassed by the tens of thousands. Only after Saddam himself changed the culture - his brutality forced a cultural change over a period of just a few years - did the people resign themselves to his rule. But, once again, it is a cultural change. The people learn in the culture to not speak out, or they will be tortured and killed. You'll note that with a change of government, the people now feel free to speak out and protest, because the new culture is setting in, which tells them they aren't going to be tortured and killed for protesting the USA. Cultures change. >... Japan and South Korea are >awesome democracies (non-English speaking) that have learned the > values of freedom over a period of less than 50 years. Jack: We forced a democratic constitution upon Japan, literally at gunpoint, which they are already contemplating abandoning. Even now, the Japanese are happy to live with a degree of regimentation and control far beyond what we would find acceptable. Politics in Japan are not a populist exercise. Although they do vote, the Japanese people allow most of their politics to be decided behind closed doors. And I should add I'm basing this from mainstream sources, like Newsweek and U.S News & World Report - not fringe publications like the New American. Gary: I never said their culture is exactly like ours. The democratic culture is still evolving. But it is evolving. The people vote. A major difference in cultures is that they tend to trust their government officials, while we in the USA are suspicious of government power. There are some cultural things that just won't change. While many of them remember the Emperor with fondness, we remember King George putting the Stamp Act on us. Our views of governance, therefore are going to be somewhat different. Still, you don't see anyone in Japan pushing to go back to the old days of an Emperor running everything. Democracy is well entrenched in their culture, even if it isn't exactly like ours. >It might take Iraq 40-50 years to switch over to a strong democracy. So >what? It means our grandchildren's children will live in a world with >one more free nation that isn't run by radical kooks. Jack: Are you willing to occupy Iraq for 40-50 years, no matter the cost in lives and dollars? Because that's the only way I can see of achieving our goals. Even then, it would be impossible unless the Iraqis chose to change. Gary: What was the cost of rebuilding Europe and Japan after WWII? Back then, our people were glad to bear the burden and cost of nation building: Germany, Italy, Japan, etc. Where would the world be if we hadn't? Germany was left in shambles after WWI, and its desperate culture of poverty caused it to accept Hitler. England's culture caused it to accept "Peace in our Time" via Neville Chamberlain. We learned that ignoring a blister does not necessarily make the blister go away. Instead, it often will fester into a gangrenous wound requiring amputation. Over time, culture changes as people surrender themselves to the new situation. This is what happened in Germany, both after WWI, and after WWII. This is what happened to Japan after WWII. Jack: Besides, are there _any_ Islamic nations that are not run by radical kooks? Was Saddam alone in persecuting the Kurds? Didn't the president of Maylasia recently release a diatribe against the vast
[ZION] Vote Now!
How about his prophecy that Jerusalem would be destroyed by God for its sins? Since Christ is God, he was doing more than just foreseeing an event - he was being Judge, Jury and Executioner. He will do it again at the Second Coming. We must remember that the Mosaic Law was a lower law - but still a law of God. Regardless of the punishment, the sin of homosexuality was still a sin that was punishable under the law. In earlier days in the USA, it was also considered a crime punishable under the law. And Just because it is no longer punished, does not make it heinous or sinful. And what Christ taught was not forgiveness, but repentance. Forgiveness is what was given AFTER people repented. Christ did not teach forgiveness to the Pharisees, but called them to repentance. He did not preach forgiveness to the Jews or Samaritans, but repentance. He forgave, because it was within him to forgive those He chose to forgive. Had his mission been nothing but forgiveness, he would forgive all mankind, including Cain. Instead, he came to bring balance between Justice and Mercy, but only on condition of repentance, which is what he preached. I think too many get fixated on what seems to be God's leniency. In reality, the commandments are clear, as are the rewards and punishments. We are not to judge where a person goes to in the next life, but we are to judge right from wrong. The JST of Matthew 7:1 tells us to judge righteous judgment. I don't condemn people to hell, that is God's job. I DO condemn sin, telling the sinner that if change does not occur in his/her life, the person risks hellfire. Calling people to repentance is a good thing to do, because only in repentance can God bring forgiveness. K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. RB Scott wrote: > Seriously, I don't >recall Christ preaching "death" for any offense...well, murder >perhaps (but I don't recall it). Notwithstanding fairly twisted and bizarre interpretations, what Christ taught was forgiveness, not death. I think too many get fixated and judging others, relishing damning others to hell. What Christ taught was that it is our responsibility to forgive all, to leave judgements to Him. I suspect when that great and dreadful day arrives, more than a few of us will be very, very surpised. > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Ron, why is it that you attack the commandments of God like this? Christ, to this day, condemns sexual impurity, even though he doesn't demand us to stone people to death. Some judgments MUST be made, otherwise you end up with no law, no order, only anarchy. Lehi taught there is right and wrong, up and down, light and darkness; that without the opposites there would be no God. As it is, God has given a law: marriage and sex between man and woman who are legally and lawfully married. Never has God given even a little inference that he would change his mind on either adultery or homosexuality. Christ said what he said because the men involved were evil men. Each was guilty of adultery, probably with the accused woman (why else would they just happen to catch her but no man to take before Jesus?). They were being hypocrites, and he was pointing out their sin to them. Now, he told the woman to "go and sin no more." He recognized her sin, and as Savior, gave her one more chance. That was his right as Judge. Since we aren't Christ, the Lawgiver, we must judge as best we can with the guidance God gives us. This means we must have laws on the books that ensure society's safety (no murder, no robbery, no cheating, and others that happen to be in the 10 Commandments - which happen to be more of the Mosaic Law you happened to condemn on homosexuality). Either Christ is for homosexuality, or he is against it. From what I've read in the scriptures (including Paul's words in the New Testament), and writings of modern prophets (note Pres Kimball in Miracle of Forgiveness, or the current missionary requirements of never having had a homosexual event) I'd say you are speaking with a forked tongue in attacking Steven. Either you believe the consistent teachings of the prophets, or you don't. Twisting Christ's words in one event in the scriptures, which He was using to condemn the wicked, only shows your troubling use of the scriptures to fit a different schema than the prophets have proclaimed. Steven mentioned the severity of the penalty for homosexuality to emphasize God's displeasure with it. He didn't say he agreed with the death penalty. As it is, most states have at one time or another had (or have) laws on the books against adultery and homosexuality. Yes, at one time some of these laws even included the death penalty for homosexuality. The reality is, homosexuality, whether in the closet or out in the open is a sin. In either situation, it denigrates and harms society. It will destroy society if it gets hold and full acceptance, just as we learn of Sodom and Gomorrah and others who have lived lives of debauchery. We cannot accept it, even in a tolerant PC way; as that is opening the door for accepting all sin. Gary Smith Ron Scott wrote: > > > Ah yes, and stone to death adulterers too. Cast that first > stone, Steven. > > >-Original Message- > >From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 9:19 AM > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! > > > > > >How about the Law of Moses (Jarom 1:5)? Contained > >within the law of Moses > >are many commandments, among them this one: > > > >(Old Testament | Leviticus 18:22) > >Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it > >is abomination. > > > >The penalty, for unrepentant sinners was death: > > > >(Old Testament | Leviticus 20:13) > >If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a > >woman, both of them have > >committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to > >death; their blood > >shall be upon them. > > > >-- > >Steven Montgomery > > > > > >At 03:18 AM 3/20/2004, you wrote: > >>I have no idea. > >> > >> >-Original Message- > >> >From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:29 PM > >> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! > >> > > >> > > >> >What laws do you think? > >> > > >> >At 06:04 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: > >> >>What laws? > >> >> > >> >> >-Original Message- > >> >> >From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >> >Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 8:15 PM > >> >> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >> >Subject: Re: [ZION] Vote Now! > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> >At 02:02 PM 3/19/2004, you wrote: > >> >> >>Gays and lesbians should stay in the closet. > >> >> >> > >> >> >>A. Strongly agree > >> >> >>B. Agree > >> >> >>C. Undecided > >> >> >>D. Disagree > >> >> >>E. Strongly Disagree > >> >> > > >> >> >If the laws were strictly enforced, as they were in the > >> >> >days of the "people > >> >> >of Nephi," they would have to stay in the closet--to > >> >> >avoid the penalty of > >> >> >the law. > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> >-- > >> >> >Steven Montgomery > >> >> >". . . the laws of the land were exceedingly > >> >strict"--Jarom 1:5 > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> >// > >> >> >/// ZION LIST CHARTER:
RE: [ZION] Musical Instruments Survey
So, Tom, are you saying there is a link between playing the harmonica and being on death row? Maybe we should continue teaching kids to play the recorder so we don't raise a generation of harmonica playing thugs! ;-) As for me, I sing tenor. I've sung in two temple dedication choirs, in fact. I've tinkered with piano and guitar just a little bit, but not very good on either. I think anyone can play harmonica, since I've been known to play one in the past. Oh, and I love playing the recorder, which is probably the main thing that's kept me out of prison all these years. Gary Smith Tom Matkin wrote: > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: March 19, 2004 2:37 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: [ZION] Musical Instruments Survey > > > > How many of you play a musical instrument? How well do you play? I'm > > curious about the musical makeup of the Zion list. > > > > John W. Redelfs sings well, plays the piano fairly, and the violin > poorly. > > > > I sing a bit. Bass in my quartet, and I sometimes have to handle the > tenor when that guy doesn't show up but it's scary when I do. I used to > play the flute and even blew the saxophone a time or two in a dance band > that I played with. I love to beat on my guitar, but I have peripheral > neuropathy in my hands and arm and I can't do it for long or without > suffering the consequences. I was never any good at it. I love the > harmonica, straight and blues. I'm not good but that doesn't stop me and > with the blues harp who really knows the difference? I think they should > throw away all those recorders in schools and teach the harmonica. > Doesn't the USA have about a million people in jail at any one time? > They could all be enjoying themselves playing the harmonica if they had > been taught in grade school. Do you ever hear anyone on death row > playing the recorder? > > Tom > > Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
That's somewhat of a fallacious generalization, John. Yes, it is difficult and it takes time. But you know what, in business management terms, we see change as requiring time. When a business changes its culture, it requires years for the complete change over. Behaviorists will tell you that normally 20-30% will quickly adapt to the change, The middle 30% adapt over several months to a year, with a large number of stragglers that take a long time. Then there are those who never adapt, who end up leaving the company for another with a culture similar to what they used to know. So it is in society. For the Western nations (English speaking primarily), they took centuries to adapt. But Japan and South Korea are awesome democracies (non-English speaking) that have learned the values of freedom over a period of less than 50 years. A long time when one thinks of how impatient Americans are, but rather quick in geological terms. Why did Moses keep Israel in the wilderness for 40 years? It would take that long for those with centuries-long slave mentality to be replaced by a generation of people with a new non-slave culture and mentality. So it is with nations. It might take Iraq 40-50 years to switch over to a strong democracy. So what? It means our grandchildren's children will live in a world with one more free nation that isn't run by radical kooks. Cultures can change. It takes time. But I have a long term view of these things. I'm glad our forefathers also had such a long term vision, otherwise they might have given up at Valley Forge or when the Articles of Confederation failed. Gary Smith John W. Redelfs wrote: > > Tom Matkin wrote: > > > The USA and her allies will successfully establish democratic rule in > > > Iraq. > > > > > > A. Certainly > > > B. Probably > > > C. Maybe > > > D. Unlikely > > > E. Certainly not > > > >E. Certainly not. Democratic rule is a privilege that must be earned. > >The people of Iraq cannot have it given to them or established for them > >any more than I can give someone else my own character or discipline. > >All the USA can do is try to improve the circumstances for the growth of > >democracy. In most cases those interventions seem to about as > >successful as premature efforts interventions to help a chick hatch. > > I strongly agree with you, Tom. Freedom, and the western democratic > traditions that establish and maintain freedom are a cultural > phenomenon, > not something that can be imposed from above. The roots of freedom in > the > west go back in the English speaking cultures to medieval Britain. That > is > why we have democracy in the USA, Canada, Australia, and a few other > places. That is also why democracy is so tentative on the European > continent, and almost nonexistent in non western nations. Democracy is > a > mind set that is engendered in families that understand and value > fundamental, God-given human rights. Those families are almost all > English > speaking. > > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > === > "I know of nothing in the history of the Church or in the > history of the world to compare with our present > circumstances. Nothing happened in Sodom and > Gomorrah which exceeds the wickedness and depravity > which surrounds us now." --President Boyd K. Packer, > February 28, 2004 > === > All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR > Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Presidente Tomas, So, are you saying that instead of trying to help them democratize, we should have just turned Afghanistan and Iraq into seas of glass, to get the radical terrorists out of our hair? Gary Smith Tom Matkin wrote: > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: March 19, 2004 1:52 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: [ZION] Vote Now! > > > > The USA and her allies will successfully establish democratic rule in > > Iraq. > > > > A. Certainly > > B. Probably > > C. Maybe > > D. Unlikely > > E. Certainly not > > E. Certainly not. Democratic rule is a privilege that must be earned. > The people of Iraq cannot have it given to them or established for them > any more than I can give someone else my own character or discipline. > All the USA can do is try to improve the circumstances for the growth of > democracy. In most cases those interventions seem to about as > successful as premature efforts interventions to help a chick hatch. > > Tom > > Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
E. Strongly Disagree. How else are we going to know which ones are the tares, if they hide amongst the wheat??? There's gonna be a big bonfire, and I'm hoping to watch it, not get burned mistakenly because we can't tell the firewood from the cabinetry in the house of God. Gary Smith John W. Redelfs wrote: > > Gays and lesbians should stay in the closet. > > A. Strongly agree > B. Agree > C. Undecided > D. Disagree > E. Strongly Disagree > Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
A. Certainly. However, the question will be how long it lasts. Once we start concentrating on other areas, will the Iraqis keep it? I mean, look at what the French and Germans have done with their freedom since we ended the Cold War and didn't concentrate on them as much. Gary Smith John W. Redelfs wrote: > > The USA and her allies will successfully establish democratic rule in > Iraq. > > A. Certainly > B. Probably > C. Maybe > D. Unlikely > E. Certainly not > Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] J. Reuben Clark
Excellent! Since it was Val's idea, we'll let her set up a few possible dates when we can have this, etc; then we can all work toward doing it. Another option is to all meet at a local temple (Louisville, Nauvoo, etc), with lunch/dinner afterward. Gary mormonyoyoman wrote: > > Talked me into it. The last face-to-face Zion List Convention (so > officially named by no one in particular) was when I met with -- uh, a > fellow named Dave who, with Dave Crockett, started a good news list > which > was assimilated by InfoBases -- and another bearded fellow whose name > also > escapes me.. With my memory, I'm not sure if I'd remember to show up -- > or > if I'd remember whether I'd been there or not. > > *jeep! > ---Chet > "If ya thinks ya is right, ya deserfs credit - even if ya is wrong." > --Gus > Segar via Popeye > - Original Message - > From: "Gerald Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 12:14 PM > Subject: RE: [ZION] J. Reuben Clark > > > > What a great idea! Let's set a date for May sometime, maybe? > Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Gas pains
GPS can be turned off, one way or another. Or, we can always choose older model cars without, and just keep them up. I mean, if they can drive 50+ year old cars in Havannah, I think we can manage with 5-10 year old cars. Gary Grampa Bill in Savannah wrote: > > Gerald Smith wrote: > > >One thing I've come to believe is that personal access to transportation > >is as important to freedom as is the right to bear arms. > > > >It is much easier to track people on trains and planes than it is > >driving their cars across country. > > > > > === > Grampa Bill comments: > > Wait'll they make a GPS in every car mandatory! I understand that > they can already track any GM car with NorthStar installed. > > Love Y'all, > Grampa Bill in Savannah > > With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine! > Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Yankee or Dixie?
Well, this is a trick problem. You see, if I've been regularly feeding myself 'real' food, then I'd be about 99.99 percent Yankee. However, if I had fasted for, say, like a week, then in eating the grits, I'd only be 98.9 percent Yankee. So the test is obviously rigged. ;-) Gary "Unless, of course, them are some of Unca Bill's famous Green Grits" Smith Jon Spencer wrote: > > > I am way behind and the quiz has apparently been taken down for > > whatever reason. Anyone care to give me an idea of what kind of > > quiz this was? > > > > Cousin Bill > > You had to go to your local grocery store and buy boxes of grits. If > you > couldn't find them, you got a 100% Yankee score. Depending upon how > many > grits you could eat, your score went progressively toward 100% Dixie. > > If I recall, if you could eat 7 bowels (6 ounces by weight) of grits at > one > 27 minute sitting, you goat a 100% Dixie score. > > Jon > Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] J. Reuben Clark
What a great idea! Let's set a date for May sometime, maybe? It will be a little warmer, and my wife will be done with her semester of school (taking the summer off). I'm sure we could get Heidi Page and husband to come up from Kintucky, just a few hours from the Evansville Stake, etc. Who all would be interested in a gathering of the Central State saints? Gary Val wrote: > > > Gee Chet, >It is never easy to find out someone has been suffering. It is very >easy for folks to stand on the outside and tell those in the >inner-depths of depression and heartache to snap out of it, or pull >yourself together. But unfortuately for some of us, it requires much >more than strong will. > >It has been two years ago today that my husband died. It has been a >tulmultuous two years. I have gone from mere moments of understanding >God's plan to weeks and months of anguishing over the loss and wanting >to turn back the hands of time. It has been compounded by the change in >income (much less) and having to rely on other sources to keep my house. > It would be easier to face these difficulties with my husband, but he >is not here to comfort me. I have yet to totally accept it, but just in >the last couple of weeks I feel I've finally turned a corner. > >Medication helps, but it doesn't fix. In my case, it has helped me to >maintain a strong enough will not to do something foolish, but I have >still had to find my way out of the hole. Fortunately, I am not alone >in the quest for a way out--I have the Savior who has been by my side, >even when I didn't want to acknowledge Him. My heart goes out to you, >and I will keep you and your family in my prayers. > >And, Chet, if you are close enough to drive to Indy, perhaps we could >get Gary to host a small bash for some Zionisti and their kin. It's >only a 3 hour drive for the average person (2 1/2 for me) to Indy. I >could go down and back in the same day! > > your sister in Zion > val > > -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Steven, I can't tell you how much your posts of Elders Clark & Skousen > helped me today. It's been a terrible year for us, and I'd completely > hit bottom - went so far as to drive up to the Indy VA hospital and turn > > myself in as depressed and a clinical loser. Whap! - Here's a bottle of > > new meds, we'll get you a real appointment in 2 or 3 weeks. Started to > feel a little better, but was still feeling helpless in a hopeless > world. > > You (and Elders Clark & Skousen) reminded me that it's far from hopeless > > and I'm far from helpless. (I may still be unemployed, heavily in debt, > > and flat broke -- but I'm far from helpless.) And you reminded me of > something I should never have forgotten: that all this was forseen and > actions were taken long ago to save us all. > > (You'd think I'd have learned this lesson when I read about the missing > 116 pages and the Plates of Nephi.) > > So I'm feeling better, if still weary. I think a good night's rest, and > > a morning re-reading of you three elders' post, will enable me to face > tomorrow and continue the fight. > > Thanks again! > > *jeep! > --Chet > > // > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > > > > The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Gas pains
Except that we would lose millions of jobs during the transition from a personal vehicle society to a mass transit one. One thing I've come to believe is that personal access to transportation is as important to freedom as is the right to bear arms. It is much easier to track people on trains and planes than it is driving their cars across country. Gary John W. Redelfs wrote: > > John A. English, n/OEF wrote: > >Dear Jim, > > > > Supply would be greater without the Iraq invasion, so prices would be > >lower. Supply/demand would force prices lower. It is also not the end > >of > >the world if we have to just do without cars. We existed before they > >were > >here, we will exist when they are gone. > > I wish there was a way to tax gasoline heavily enough to do away with > income taxes and yet raise the same revenue. With gas at five dollars > per > gallon and up imagine how many people would actually figure in commuting > > costs when they take a job. Public transportation would come into its > own. People would live nearer their work. They would find other ways > to > amuse themselves than by burning recreational gas. But most > importantly, > we could be energy independent. That would mean we wouldn't need to > maintain a military presence all over the globe to protect our > "national" > ie. oil interests. > > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > === > "I know of nothing in the history of the Church or in the > history of the world to compare with our present > circumstances. Nothing happened in Sodom and > Gomorrah which exceeds the wickedness and depravity > which surrounds us now." --President Boyd K. Packer, > February 28, 2004 > === > All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR > Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] General Conference Hopes
All of the other righteous had been translated to the City of Enoch, or like Methuselah, died of old age prior to the Flood. It seems that some of that may happen at the last days for us too. Either there will be a translation of many members (see Matthew 24, where it talks of two in the field and one taken); or we will have Zion and her stakes as refuges (see the end of D&C 45, where it states Zion will be a refuge). The time will come when we will gather out from among the wicked. When that occurs, you can be assured your family will be safe. Until then, feel comforted in Pres Packer's promise that if we do all we can with our children, they will someday come back if they fall away. I feel that is a special provision given by God in order to keep the saints out in the midst of the spiritual dangers we now face, just so the world can be blessed with our presence for as long as possible. Still, D&C 87 tells us that in the last days when the last of the slaves rise up in anger against the Gentiles (which I strongly believe is the Islamic Extremist attacks going on), we are to prepare for the great destructions and disasters of the final days; then stand in holy places. Believe in God, believe in his miracles. Unlike the calvary in many old movies, God does show up in the nick of time. Gary Smith John W. Redelfs wrote: > > Gerald Smith wrote: > >I'm not discouraged. I see this as being part of the plan. God has > >already told us what would happen in the last days. So, why worry? Do > >your part, and know that Christ will come out victor in the end. That is > >where hope lies, in seeing beyond this earthly realm, and into the > >heavens beyond. > > > >If the whole earth turns homosexual, except for the Saints, so what? > > I understand the earth just before the Second Coming will be as it was > in > the days of Noah. And from my reading I've learned that the reason God > had > to drown the world is because the world had become so wicked there was > no > way for a person to raise up a righteous posterity. Noah, his wife, > three > sons, and three daughters-in-law were all that were saved. What about > Noah's other children and grandchildren if he had any, his nieces and > nephews, his siblings? > > The point I'm trying to make is that even if things are going according > to > God's plan, it is still right for us to worry about our children and > grandchildren. What chance do they have to grow up straight and true in > > such a world? > > If the whole world turns homosexual it won't be "except for the > Saints." It will be many that are close to you, your grandchildren and > great grandchildren. For me that is a painful thought and a good reason > > for family prayer, family scripture study, and Family Home Evening. > And > even then our own families will be in terrible danger. > > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > === > "I know of nothing in the history of the Church or in the > history of the world to compare with our present > circumstances. Nothing happened in Sodom and > Gomorrah which exceeds the wickedness and depravity > which surrounds us now." --President Boyd K. Packer, > February 28, 2004 > === > All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR > Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] General Conference Hopes
Sara, nice to hear your comments on this. I agree, we must stand for the right. We also must not be afraid to establish the idea that homosexuality is a sin and evil and is bad for society. Why do so many have so little to say against it? Because they've given up the good/evil platform. When we start shuffling our feet on right/wrong, because it isn't politically correct, we are then caught in the middle with little or nothing to say, and definitely nothing to defend. Will we win? YES It might not be in the short term, but the time will come when all the wicked will be wiped off the earth, and we will all rejoice in the higher laws that all must live. Gary Smith Sara Peterson wrote: > > I guess I have to agree with my Father's (John R) email of March 10th. > Living in Massachusetts, and seeing how uniform and articulate the > proponents of Same Sex Marriage are, and seeing how "lost for words" the > > Traditional Family side isit is sad. For years the media has been > normalizing homosexuality, and families who don't believe that have just > > shut it out of their homes, but didn't take the further step to fight > back. > Now, the common follower of the media has no problem with homosexuality > because they are friends with the characters of Will and Grace. I > attended > a rally at the Massachusetts State house in Feb. Hundreds and Hundreds > of > people in favor of SSM, but only a small handful of those in opposition. > Of > course those in opposition were taking the side of religion, singing > hymns > through a megaphone. The Middle American who is not particularly > religious, > but is against SSM, is alienated. > Those in favor of Traditional families, for whatever reason (religion > or not) should band together, and become articulate, and sit at the > side. I > cannot say "so what" because all these people who may be choosing the > wrong > about SSM, need to be warned. It is our duty to warn our neighbor. > Now, will we win...no. But we have to show each other and most > importantly Heavenly Father that we fought the good fight for His cause. > I > do not think President Hinckley will give more counsel on what we should > do > on the matter. He may encourage us, and reiterate what the church has > already said. But it seems that Heavenly Father tells us what is right, > and > lets us figure it out on our own (with the great help of personal > revelation). It is not often we get step by step guidance over the > pulpit. > > As a side note, Im holding the List owners only BEAUTIFUL granddaughter > (my > sister Rebekah's Baby). She would really like to contribute her typing > to > this post. Julia is 6 months old, and generally happy. I wish you all > could see her. She has her Grandpa Redelfs' big eyes and forehead :) > > Sara Peterson > Brookline Mass > > > > >>From: Gerald Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: RE: [ZION] General Conference Hopes > >Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 16:53:10 + > > > >I'm not discouraged. I see this as being part of the plan. God has > >already told us what would happen in the last days. So, why worry? Do > >your part, and know that Christ will come out victor in the end. That is > >where hope lies, in seeing beyond this earthly realm, and into the > >heavens beyond. > > > >If the whole earth turns homosexual, except for the Saints, so what? How > >will that affect your testimony? How will it overcome the work of God? > >We have many more righteous on earth right now than Noah had in his day > >before the ark. Why should we be any different? Don't forget, those that > >be with us are more than those against us. We have battalions of angels > >ready to fight our battles. God told us in the Book of Mormon that if > >necessary, he will call down fire from heaven to defend us from His > >enemies. > > > >So, we put up the good fight, knowing that we'll lose some skirmishes > >along the way, but the entire war is ours. And that IS a comforting > >thought to me. > > > >Gary Smith > > > >Jon Spencer wrote: > > > > > > Satan wants you to be discouraged, John. Take heart. Do something > > > positive, perhaps encouraging same-sex marriage by taking on a few more > > > wives. > > > > > > Okay, maybe not. But do something to help the situation and you will > > > feel > > > much better. > > > > > > Jon > > > > > > - Original Messa
RE: [ZION] Taxes
So, you are saying that pretty much any one could impress you ;-) Gary Ron Scott wrote: > > Do tell. Remember I live in the state that produced Kennedy, > Kerry and Romney. > > RBS > > >-Original Message- > >From: Jon Spencer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 10:53 PM > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: Re: [ZION] Taxes > > > > > >You wouldn't be so impressed if he were the Senator > >from your state. > > > >Jon > >- Original Message - > >From: "RB Scott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 6:40 AM > >Subject: RE: [ZION] Taxes > > > > > >> I was very impressed by John Edwards. If Kerry could > >abide having > >> a running mate that would naturally upstage him from time to > >> time, Edwards would make a very attractive vice presidential > >> candidate. He certainly brought a fresh face and > >attitude to the > >> campaign. I only wish he'd gotten rolling earlier. > >> > >> Ron > >> > >> >-Original Message- > >> >From: Jon Spencer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 5:54 AM > >> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >Subject: Re: [ZION] Taxes > >> > > >> > > >> >This is all true, but I like Edward's pronouncements > >> >the best. In his > >> >speech in Raleigh where he quit the campaign, Edwards > >> >asked all to join him > >> >in his quest to end all poverty in the US during the > >> >next 4 years. And > >> >everybody cheered their heads off! > >> > > >> >All ya gots ta do is to have the right intentions. > >> >Success is not > >> >necessary. > >> > > >> >Jon > >> > > >> >- Original Message - > >> >From: "Jim Cobabe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> >Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 8:38 PM > >> >Subject: [ZION] Taxes > >> > > >> > > >> >> > >> >> One of John Kerry's principal campaign issues is > >> >taxes. He promises to > >> >> rescind the recent tax cuts implemented by the Bush > >> >administration. > >> >> > >> >> In the news coverage, it absolutely amazes me to > >> >notice the crowds > >> >> cheering with enthusiasm when they hear a promise to > >> >raise their taxes. > >> >> It has always surprised me that so many are willing > >> >to elect people who > >> >> promise to take away their money and spend it for > >> >them. Of course, we > >> >> know that liberal political leaders are always wiser > >> >than any of their > >> >> constituents about how best to spend other people's money. > >> >> > >> >> As far as I can discern, none of the rhetoric on > >> >taxes, from either side > >> >> of the aisle, has even a shred of credibility. Both > >> >leading candidates > >> >> are wealthy beyond reason. Unlike the circumstances > >> >with most of us, it > >> >> is obvious that not even taxes levied at the most > >> >extreme rate could > >> >> ever do much to hurt their lavishly indulgent > >> >lifestyle. They pretend > >> >> to emphathize with people of modest means, but in > >> >reality I believe they > >> >> don't have a clue. > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> >// > >> >> /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > >> >> /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> >/ > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> >// > >> >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > >> >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > >> > > >> >/ > >> -- > >> > >> > > > > > >// > >> /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > >> /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > >> > > > > > >/ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > >// > >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > >/ > -- > > > Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^---
RE: [ZION] General Conference Hopes
I'm not discouraged. I see this as being part of the plan. God has already told us what would happen in the last days. So, why worry? Do your part, and know that Christ will come out victor in the end. That is where hope lies, in seeing beyond this earthly realm, and into the heavens beyond. If the whole earth turns homosexual, except for the Saints, so what? How will that affect your testimony? How will it overcome the work of God? We have many more righteous on earth right now than Noah had in his day before the ark. Why should we be any different? Don't forget, those that be with us are more than those against us. We have battalions of angels ready to fight our battles. God told us in the Book of Mormon that if necessary, he will call down fire from heaven to defend us from His enemies. So, we put up the good fight, knowing that we'll lose some skirmishes along the way, but the entire war is ours. And that IS a comforting thought to me. Gary Smith Jon Spencer wrote: > > Satan wants you to be discouraged, John. Take heart. Do something > positive, perhaps encouraging same-sex marriage by taking on a few more > wives. > > Okay, maybe not. But do something to help the situation and you will > feel > much better. > > Jon > > - Original Message - > From: "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 1:05 PM > Subject: [ZION] General Conference Hopes > > > > General Conference is coming up in less than a month on April 3 and 4. > > I > > hope that President Hinckley will give us some additional guidance on > > the > > matter of same-sex marriages. Right now I am terribly discouraged. The > > advocates of same-sex marriage seem to have a plan and are all pulling > > together for what they want. The opponents of same-sex marriage, on the > > other hand, seem to be in a state a great confusion pulling in several > > different directions. I see no hope that the opponents of same-sex > > marriage will prevail when they cannot even agree on a common strategy. > > > > John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > = > > The traditional family is under heavy attack. I do not know > > that things were worse in the times of Sodom and Gomorrah. > > -- President Gordon B. Hinckley, 2004. > > = > > All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR > > > > > > > // > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > > > / > > > > > > > Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Gay marriage is wrong
On the issue of Polygamy, it is a moot point. The Lord revealed to a prophet to obey the law of the land on this issue, and it is well ingrained in the Church now. If the Lord sees fit to reinstate it, he will prepare the way, or allow the saints a trial of their faith. But even the saints agree there must be standards. Even with polgamy, it only was allowed on a case-by-case basis (each venture approved by the prophet or his representative); and it did not seek extra privileges from the state nor did it open up the way for extra definitions of civil unions. Remember, there was nothing on the books concerning polygamy until AFTER Mormon polygamy was made an issue by Congress; whereas gay marriage or relations have until recently even been banned by most state legislatures as counter productive to society's good. I agree that it would have been nice of the government to have established early on a set framework on this. However, it also is a moot point, as we can no longer go back in time and address that issue. The reality is, we have the current situation, and must deal with it as is. Gary Ron Scott wrote: > > Gary: > > Some of us regard marriage as a religious blessing, a religious > covenant. Some us, therefore, think the government has no > business getting itself involved in a religious matter -- like > determining what constitutes a "marriage." > > The government ought to stick to defining what kinds of "unions" > and "partnerships" it allow (I assume there are many worthwhile > variations on themes, ones that ought to be defined as permitted > by law). Had it done that -- had it taken a one-size fits all > approach and done it actively, rather than reactively, one could > argue that the pressure we've witness over the past few months > would not have been necessary. Instead, the government, in > essence, refused to confront the matter until forced. > > Had it actively addressed the matter years ago, we may have > gotten legislation on the books that would be satisfying to most, > if not all. Such legislation would have resolved the concerns of > the Massachusetts couples that sued the state, a lawsuit which > reached the Commonwealth's Supreme Judicial Court. > > Two final thoughts: I would imagine it's not lost on you that the > proposed Constitutional Amendment defines marriage as a union > between one man and one woman. I trust it's also not lost on you > that, should the amendment pass, it will, in essence, confirm > the illegality of the marriages of several of my ancestors. It > will render people like me descendants of illegitimate > relationships, the offspring of bastard children. Where will the > Church be should, at some point down the road, the Lord order > that polygamy be reinstituted? I realize this is unlikely...but > there is a darned important principle in play here, one that too > many of us are ignoring. > > RBS > > >-Original Message- > >From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 12:08 PM > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: [ZION] Gay marriage is wrong > > > > > >Here is an awesome article by Thomas Sowell on why Gay > >marriage movement > >is wrong. > >Gary > > > >http://www.townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/ts20040309.shtml > > > >'Gay marriage' confusions > >Thomas Sowell (archive) > > > >March 9, 2004 > > > >Few issues have produced as much confused thinking as > >the "gay marriage" > >issue. > > > >There is, for example, the argument that the government > >has no business > >getting involved with marriage in the first place. That > >is a personal > >relation, the argument goes. > > > >Love affairs are personal relations. Marriage is a > >legal relation. To > >say that government should not get involved in legal > >relations is to say > >that government has no business governing. > > > >Homosexuals were on their strongest ground when they > >said that what > >happens between "consenting adults" in private is none of the > >government's business. But now gay activists are taking > >the opposite > >view, that it is government's business -- and that > >government has an > >obligation to give its approval. > > > >Then there are the strained analogies with the civil > >rights struggles of > >the 1960s. Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King challenged > >the racial laws > >of their time. So, the argument goes, what is wrong > >with Massachusetts > >judges and the mayor of San Francisco challenging
RE: [ZION] Gay marriage is wrong
A key difference, though, is that homosexuality is a sexual issue; whereas marriages between man and woman (or even polygamy) has additional natural issues: such as children born into the relationship. Extra mothers to raise the child is different than two women taking up together to have sex. Procreation is not involved in any way, which is the ideal society has long maintained. Gary Ron Scott wrote: > > Toward the laudable goal of establishing family traditions that > work, shall I presume that "society" and "government" will soon > insist on repealing what are essentially "divorce on demand" > statutes? I agree that the ideal model is family with a father > and a mother, but it certainly is not the only model that works. > Nor are "alternative workable models" recent phenomena. They have > been with us as long as I can remember. For instance, most, if > not all, polygamous family models were quite non-traditional. > Children in such families often only had passing relationships > with their fathers. Often two or more mothers occupied the same > home. Often children from different mothers were raised with > deep loyalties to their biological mothers as well as other > "moms" in the household. As I practical matter, would we not be > better off finding ways to support all families, no matter their > configurations? > > Ron Scott > > >-Original Message- > >From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 9:34 AM > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: RE: [ZION] Gay marriage is wrong > > > > > >Marriage has shown itself to be a core ideal for > >society's strength and > >longevity. Society (read: government) therefore has a > >keen interest in > >ensuring marriage is done in a manner that promotes a > >strong and safe > >society; normally built upon traditions that work. > > > >Gary > > > >Ron Scott wrote: > >> > >> Gary: > >> > >> Some of us regard marriage as a religious blessing, > >a religious > >> covenant. Some us, therefore, think the government has no > >> business getting itself involved in a religious matter -- like > >> determining what constitutes a "marriage." > >> > >> The government ought to stick to defining what kinds > >of "unions" > >> and "partnerships" it allow (I assume there are many > >worthwhile > >> variations on themes, ones that ought to be defined > >as permitted > >> by law). Had it done that -- had it taken a one-size fits all > >> approach and done it actively, rather than > >reactively, one could > >> argue that the pressure we've witness over the past few months > >> would not have been necessary. Instead, the government, in > >> essence, refused to confront the matter until forced. > >> > >> Had it actively addressed the matter years ago, we may have > >> gotten legislation on the books that would be > >satisfying to most, > >> if not all. Such legislation would have resolved the > >concerns of > >> the Massachusetts couples that sued the state, a lawsuit which > >> reached the Commonwealth's Supreme Judicial Court. > >> > >> Two final thoughts: I would imagine it's not lost on > >you that the > >> proposed Constitutional Amendment defines marriage as a union > >> between one man and one woman. I trust it's also not > >lost on you > >> that, should the amendment pass, it will, in essence, confirm > >> the illegality of the marriages of several of my > >ancestors. It > >> will render people like me descendants of illegitimate > >> relationships, the offspring of bastard children. > >Where will the > >> Church be should, at some point down the road, the Lord order > >> that polygamy be reinstituted? I realize this is > >unlikely...but > >> there is a darned important principle in play here, > >one that too > >> many of us are ignoring. > >> > >> RBS > >> > >> >-Original Message- > >> >From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 12:08 PM > >> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >Subject: [ZION] Gay marriage is wrong > >> > > >> > > >> >Here is an awesome article by Thomas Sowell on why Gay > >> >marriage movement > >> >is wrong. > >> >Gary > >> > > >> > >&
RE: [ZION] Gay Marriage Quicksand
I'm all for it, IF we can get Congress to do it, and then not renege on it 10 years down the road under a liberal president. But how does this affect state courts who are legislating the same things from the bench? States would still be forced to draft amendments to their Constitutions, wouldn't they? Gary Steven Montgomery wrote: > > Congressman Ron Paul on the Gay Marriage issue (just remember where you > saw > the "limit the jurisdiction of federal courts" idea first ): > > http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/2004/03-22-2004/marriage.htm > > Gay Marriage Quicksand > by Congressman Ron Paul > > Nationalizing marriage laws will only grant more power over our lives to > > the federal government, even if for supposedly conservative ends. A far > better approach is for Congress to exercise its existing constitutional > power to limit the jurisdiction of federal courts. > > The President's recent announcement that he supports a constitutional > amendment defining marriage has intensified the gay marriage debate. It > seems sad that we need government to define and regulate our most basic > institutions. > > Marriage is first and foremost a religious matter, not a government > matter. > Government is not moral and cannot make us moral. Law should reflect > moral > standards, of course, but morality comes from religion, from philosophy, > > from societal standards, from families, and from responsible > individuals. > We make a mistake when we look to government for moral leadership. > > Marriage and divorce laws have always been crafted by states. In an > ideal > world, state governments enforce marriage contracts and settle divorces, > > but otherwise stay out of marriage. The federal government, granted only > > limited, enumerated powers in the Constitution, has no role whatsoever. > > However, many Americans understandably fear that if gay marriage is > legalized in one state, all other states will be forced to accept such > marriages. They argue that the Full Faith and Credit clause of the > Constitution essentially federalizes the issue; hence a constitutional > amendment is necessary. > > But the Defense of Marriage Act, passed in 1996, explicitly authorizes > states to refuse to recognize gay marriages performed in other states. > Furthermore, the Supreme Court repeatedly has interpreted the Full Faith > > and Credit clause to allow Congress to limit the effect of state laws on > > other states. In fact, federal courts almost universally apply the > clause > only to state court judgments, not statutes. So a constitutional > amendment > is not necessary to address the issue of gay marriage, and will only > drive > yet another nail into the coffin of federalism. If we turn regulation of > > even domestic family relations over to the federal government, > presumably > anything can be federalized. > > The choices are not limited to either banning gay marriage at the > federal > level, or giving up and accepting it as inevitable. A far better > approach, > rarely discussed, is for Congress to exercise its existing > constitutional > power to limit the jurisdiction of federal courts. Congress could > statutorily remove whole issues like gay marriage from the federal > judiciary, striking a blow against judicial tyranny and restoring some > degree of states' rights. We seem to have forgotten that the Supreme > Court > is supreme only over lower federal courts; it is not supreme over the > other > branches of government. The judiciary is co-equal under our federal > system, > but too often it serves as an unelected, unaccountable legislature. > > It is great comedy to hear the secular, pro-gay left, so hostile to > states' > rights in virtually every instance, suddenly discover the tyranny of > centralized government. The newly minted protectors of local rule find > themselves demanding: "Why should Washington dictate marriage standards > for > Massachusetts and California? Let the people of those states decide for > themselves." This is precisely the argument conservatives and > libertarians > have been making for decades! Why should Washington dictate education, > abortion, environment, and labor rules to the states? The American > people > hold widely diverse views on virtually all political matters, and the > Founders wanted the various state governments to most accurately reflect > > those views. This is the significance of the 10th Amendment, which the > left > in particular has abused for decades. > > Social problems cannot be solved by constitutional amendments or > government > edicts. Nationalizing marriage laws will only grant more power over our > lives to the federal government, even if for supposedly conservative > ends. > Throughout the 20th century, the relentless federalization of state law > served the interests of the cultural left, and we should not kid > ourselves > that the same practice now
RE: [ZION] Gay art exhibit
Would SLCC allow a display of photos/art depicting homosexuals on their knees attempting to repent of their sin? It would definitely promote discussion, wouldn't it? I'm willing to do a pictorial expose of gays burning in hell, repenting on their knees before Christ, etc; if SLCC is willing to put them on display. Anyone know anyone at SLCC who would be interested in such an idea? Gays might find it offensive, but not more so than depicting LDS missionaries in a homosexual encounter. Gary Smith Jim Cobabe wrote: > > Deseret Morning News, Wednesday, March 10, 2004 > > Gay art exhibit raises ire at SLCC > > Diversity Week show is moved away from entrance foyer > > By Doug Smeath > Deseret Morning News > > A visual art exhibit at Salt Lake Community College was moved Tuesday > after a group of photographs offended several students who are members > of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. > > The exhibit, part of SLCC's Diversity Week, raised the ire of students > who disapproved of depictions of two men dressed as LDS missionaries in > various stages of undress. > > The photographs suggested a homosexual relationship between the two men. > > There was no nudity in any of the photos. > > The art show is sponsored by Coloring Outside the Lines, a club for gay, > > lesbian, bisexual, transgender and heterosexual students. It was > originally in a foyer near the entrance of the South City Campus' main > building, 1575 S. State. > > But after a group of students "had some concerns" with the art, the > exhibit was moved to the Student Services Lounge, which is in the same > building, said Joy Tlou, SLCC's director of public relations. > > MaryEtta Chase, an assistant adviser to the club, said she wanted to > keep the exhibit where it would be visible, but she was concerned angry > students would somehow damage the art if it stayed where it was. > > Tlou described the decision to move the exhibit as the result of a > "conversation" in which both sides were able to express their opinions > and work out a compromise. > > "Colleges and universities are traditionally a place where ideas meet," > he said. "The students who were voicing the dissent were doing so in a > very civil way." > > But Kathryn Heaston, a student who is not affiliated with Coloring > Outside the Lines but said she witnessed the disagreement and got > involved, said the argument was a little more heated than that. > > "He (one of the offended students) got up in my face and was like, 'What > > do you know about the Savior?' " said Heaston, who supports the club and > > its display. > > Joseph Freed, one of the students who complained about the photos, told > KSL-TV he was exercising his right to express his opinion. "It offends > me and what I believe in," he said. > > Campus police officers were called to the site of the argument, but no > one was cited. > > The artist, Don Farmer, stopped by the school to see the exhibit Tuesday > > morning. When he arrived, he found students arguing about his photos. He > > is not a student at SLCC; he graduated from Westminster College with a > degree in art. But a club adviser asked him the night before the > exhibit's opening to submit pieces for the show. > > "I didn't think it would be in the lobby," Farmer said. "Had I known > (the photos would spark controversy), I probably would have asked for a > warning in front of the exhibit," telling potential viewers what to > expect. > > Farmer said the photos were part of his senior project at Westminster. > When they were displayed there, a similar controversy erupted, resulting > > in a lawsuit against the school. However, Farmer said, the student who > filed the suit later dropped it after she spoke with Farmer and learned > of his intentions. > > Farmer said the photos were not "meant to be hateful or hurtful" but > were instead meant to "start dialogue." He set out to depict the > struggles of people trying to juxtapose their faith with their > sexuality. He said he was an active LDS Church member when he displayed > the photos at Westminster, and his bishopric was understanding about his > > intentions. He is no longer actively LDS, he said. > > He said the men shown in the photos are both former LDS missionaries who > > were in a relationship. > > "Art is scary," he said. "Art is something that challenges. I was scared > > of the images. . . . I learned that there was something that these > images evoked." > > For some viewers, it was increased understanding; others were offended > but wanted to understand the reasoning behind the photos, he said. > > Farmer said he encountered a similar response at SLCC on Tuesday. The > scene was initially confrontational, he said, but when students realized > > Farmer was the artist, they became "genuinely" interested in > understanding what Farmer was saying with his art. > > Diversity Week continues at SLCC, inclu
RE: [ZION] Gay marriage is wrong
Marriage has shown itself to be a core ideal for society's strength and longevity. Society (read: government) therefore has a keen interest in ensuring marriage is done in a manner that promotes a strong and safe society; normally built upon traditions that work. Gary Ron Scott wrote: > > Gary: > > Some of us regard marriage as a religious blessing, a religious > covenant. Some us, therefore, think the government has no > business getting itself involved in a religious matter -- like > determining what constitutes a "marriage." > > The government ought to stick to defining what kinds of "unions" > and "partnerships" it allow (I assume there are many worthwhile > variations on themes, ones that ought to be defined as permitted > by law). Had it done that -- had it taken a one-size fits all > approach and done it actively, rather than reactively, one could > argue that the pressure we've witness over the past few months > would not have been necessary. Instead, the government, in > essence, refused to confront the matter until forced. > > Had it actively addressed the matter years ago, we may have > gotten legislation on the books that would be satisfying to most, > if not all. Such legislation would have resolved the concerns of > the Massachusetts couples that sued the state, a lawsuit which > reached the Commonwealth's Supreme Judicial Court. > > Two final thoughts: I would imagine it's not lost on you that the > proposed Constitutional Amendment defines marriage as a union > between one man and one woman. I trust it's also not lost on you > that, should the amendment pass, it will, in essence, confirm > the illegality of the marriages of several of my ancestors. It > will render people like me descendants of illegitimate > relationships, the offspring of bastard children. Where will the > Church be should, at some point down the road, the Lord order > that polygamy be reinstituted? I realize this is unlikely...but > there is a darned important principle in play here, one that too > many of us are ignoring. > > RBS > > >-Original Message- > >From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 12:08 PM > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: [ZION] Gay marriage is wrong > > > > > >Here is an awesome article by Thomas Sowell on why Gay > >marriage movement > >is wrong. > >Gary > > > >http://www.townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/ts20040309.shtml > > > >'Gay marriage' confusions > >Thomas Sowell (archive) > > > >March 9, 2004 > > > >Few issues have produced as much confused thinking as > >the "gay marriage" > >issue. > > > >There is, for example, the argument that the government > >has no business > >getting involved with marriage in the first place. That > >is a personal > >relation, the argument goes. > > > >Love affairs are personal relations. Marriage is a > >legal relation. To > >say that government should not get involved in legal > >relations is to say > >that government has no business governing. > > > >Homosexuals were on their strongest ground when they > >said that what > >happens between "consenting adults" in private is none of the > >government's business. But now gay activists are taking > >the opposite > >view, that it is government's business -- and that > >government has an > >obligation to give its approval. > > > >Then there are the strained analogies with the civil > >rights struggles of > >the 1960s. Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King challenged > >the racial laws > >of their time. So, the argument goes, what is wrong > >with Massachusetts > >judges and the mayor of San Francisco challenging laws > >that they > >consider unjust today? > > > >First of all, Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King were > >private citizens > >and they did not put themselves above the law. On the > >contrary, they > >submitted to arrest in order to gain the public support > >needed to change > >the laws. > > > >As private citizens, neither Mrs. Parks nor Dr. King > >wielded the power > >of government. Their situation was very different from > >that of public > >officials who use the power delegated to them through > >the framework of > >law to betray that framework itself, which they swore > >to uphold as a > >condition of receiving their power. > > > >The real analogy would be to Governor George Wallace, > >who defied the la
RE: [ZION] Cause for rejoicing
I heard a rumor that Stacy Smith's husband was baptized over the weekend. I'm sure that is an awesome thing for her. Congrats, Heidi! Gary mormonyoyoman wrote: > > Heartfelt congratulations to Heidi! There are few things as satisfying > as > seeing one's family doing the celestial thing! > > *jeep! > ---Chet > "If ya thinks ya is right, ya deserfs credit - even if ya is wrong." > --Gus > Segar via Popeye > Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Am I wasting my time?
I've just been too busy to look at it. Gary Jonathan Scott wrote: > > Hello, > I've noticed that you all don't seem too interested in the > things that I'm writing. Could you please tell me why that is? Is > it that you disagree? Is it that you don't care? Is it that you're > too busy to read my posts? > I'm putting a lot of time into this, and I really could use > the help (feedback). > > P.S. the answer to the riddle was "nothing." > -- > Jonathan Scott Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Trial by Media
The sad thing is, she was offered a deal wherein she wouldn't have to do jail time, but her lawyer talked her out of it. I'm hearing she'll get about 18 months. And, of course her company will tank. Gary Tom Matkin wrote: > > > > -Original Message- > From: RB Scott [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 4:46 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [ZION] Trial by Media > > > > >-Original Message- > >From: Tom Matkin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 11:42 PM > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: Re: [ZION] Trial by Media > > > > > >RB Scott wrote: > > > >> > >>You mean, sort of like the OJ trial? > >> > >>Ron > >> > >> > > > >Which trial? > > > >Tom > > The criminal trial > > Can't compare that with Martha's trial. Most of us saw almost every > minute of it, sometimes several times. True we had endless "spin" > commentaries trying to sort it out for us, but we saw the evidence. I > also believe that the jury practiced "jury nullification". In effect, > they knew full well that OJ was guilty, but they chose to nullify the > prosecution for other reasons. Either they accepted the "race card" as a > trump to the actual evidence, or they nullified because they believed > the LAPD was unworthy of the conviction. Probably a combination of those > two reasons. How do you compare the OJ trial with Martha's trial? It > seems to me that Martha had no defense and therefore put up no defense. > She relied on her reputation and a parade of celebrity supporters > sitting behind her in the courtroom to influence the jury. The jury > didn't buy it. It is also my understanding that had she admitted doing > what she obviously did - dumping shares on an inside tip - she could > have taken the high road by admitting her hasty ill advised action and > been fined and gone on with her life. Instead she falsified her > records, lied to the investigators, and asked others to lie for her, the > latter being the most despicable of things. Of course, I have to state > my prejudice here. I feel like her whole "branding" thing is big lie. > She comes off as this great expert that knows everything and about > everything and that can manipulate anything into anything. She came to > believe her own fabrication and it rose up and bit her - in the end - so > to speak. > > Tom > > Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Gay marriage is wrong
Here is an awesome article by Thomas Sowell on why Gay marriage movement is wrong. Gary http://www.townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/ts20040309.shtml 'Gay marriage' confusions Thomas Sowell (archive) March 9, 2004 Few issues have produced as much confused thinking as the "gay marriage" issue. There is, for example, the argument that the government has no business getting involved with marriage in the first place. That is a personal relation, the argument goes. Love affairs are personal relations. Marriage is a legal relation. To say that government should not get involved in legal relations is to say that government has no business governing. Homosexuals were on their strongest ground when they said that what happens between "consenting adults" in private is none of the government's business. But now gay activists are taking the opposite view, that it is government's business -- and that government has an obligation to give its approval. Then there are the strained analogies with the civil rights struggles of the 1960s. Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King challenged the racial laws of their time. So, the argument goes, what is wrong with Massachusetts judges and the mayor of San Francisco challenging laws that they consider unjust today? First of all, Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King were private citizens and they did not put themselves above the law. On the contrary, they submitted to arrest in order to gain the public support needed to change the laws. As private citizens, neither Mrs. Parks nor Dr. King wielded the power of government. Their situation was very different from that of public officials who use the power delegated to them through the framework of law to betray that framework itself, which they swore to uphold as a condition of receiving their power. The real analogy would be to Governor George Wallace, who defied the law by trying to prevent black students from being enrolled in the University of Alabama under a court order. After Wallace was no longer governor, he was within his rights to argue for racial segregation, just as civil rights leaders argued against it. But, using the powers of his office as governor to defy the law was a violation of his oath. If judges of the Massachusetts Supreme Court or the mayor of San Francisco want to resign their jobs and start advocating gay marriage, they have every right to do so. But that is wholly different from using the authority delegated to them under the law to subvert the law. Gay rights activists argue that activist judges have overturned unjust laws in the past and that society is better off for it. The argument that some good has come from some unlawful acts in the past is hardly a basis for accepting unlawful acts in general. If you only want to accept particular unlawful acts that you agree with, then of course others will have other unlawful acts that they agree with. Considering how many different groups have how many different sets of values, that road leads to anarchy. Have we not seen enough anarchy in Haiti, Rwanda and other places to know not to go there? The last refuge of the gay marriage advocates is that this is an issue of equal rights. But marriage is not an individual right. Otherwise, why limit marriage to unions of two people instead of three or four or five? Why limit it to adult humans, if some want to be united with others of various ages, sexes and species? Marriage is a social contract because the issues involved go beyond the particular individuals. Unions of a man and a woman produce the future generations on whom the fate of the whole society depends. Society has something to say about that. Even at the individual level, men and women have different circumstances, if only from the fact that women have babies and men do not. These and other asymmetries in the positions of women and men justify long-term legal arrangements to enable society to keep this asymmetrical relationship viable -- for society's sake. Neither of these considerations applies to unions where the people are of the same sex. Centuries of experience in trying to cope with the asymmetries of marriage have built up a large body of laws and practices geared to that particular legal relationship. To then transfer all of that to another relationship that was not contemplated when these laws were passed is to make rhetoric more important than reality. ©2004 Creators Syndicate, Inc. Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.
RE: [ZION] Farrell, Hatch and Redelfs
Or, if it initially fails, it could cause enough anger in the states by normal, God-fearing people, that they will throw the bums out that refused to vote for it. That is my hope. Congress can be recalled by its constituents. Another check given by the Constitution Gary Smith John W. Redelfs wrote: > > RB Scott wrote: > >My guess is that it won't be approved by Congress. The danger in > >a drawn out, bitter campaign that ultimately loses is that it > >will absorb so much political and financial captial there won't > >be much left over to shape how (or if) same sex marriage is > >presented in the schools. A destructive "to the winner goes the > >spoils" mentality could rule the process. > > Just an additional argument for home schooling. --JWR > > > Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Federal Marriage Amendment
It means that no legal document can require marriage to also apply to same sex or other couplings. This doesn't disallow unions for them, just proscribes that the term and form of "marriage" be saved for man and woman. Gary Jonathan Scott wrote: > > >Neither this Constitution or the constitution of any State, nor > >state or federal law, shall be construed to require that marital > >status or the legal incidents thereof be conferred upon unmarried > >couples or groups. > > Sorry, but can someone tell me what this part means? > -- > Jonathan Scott Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Gay Marriage in Oregon
Well, the scriptures warn us about the waters in the last days, don't they? Gary Ronn! Blankenship wrote: > > At 12:33 PM 3/4/04, Gerald Smith wrote: > >Interesting that all these gay marriage actions are taking place in > >liberal coastline states. You just don't see any small towns in > >Mississippi handing out marriage licenses like that, do you? > > > > So are you suggesting that it must be something in the water? > > > > -- Ronn! :) > > Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Gay Marriage in Oregon
Interesting that all these gay marriage actions are taking place in liberal coastline states. You just don't see any small towns in Mississippi handing out marriage licenses like that, do you? Jonathan Scott wrote: > > http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=2&u=/ap/20040303/ap_on_re_us/gay_marriage > > -- > Jonathan Scott Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Orson Scott Card on Iraq
I don't think it is right to kill for a better standard of living, either. I saw it as defending an ally, regardless of whether you agree on how Kuwait was established, or not. I also saw Saddam as a threat to the region, given his WOMD attacks on Iran, his killing of Kurds, his desire to be the new Saladin (emperor of the Muslim middle East), and the reality that we would not be able to quickly switch over to our own oil sources. High oil prices, whether they come from internal or external sources, affect our economy. I'm not for killing people to buoy up that economy, but I am for maintaining our allies in order to keep the USA economy (and also then, the world economy) running well. We killed a few thousand Iraqi troops. Saddam killed hundreds of thousands of people. We understood him to be ruthless, and knew he would use the power of oil fields in Kuwait (and his next goal, Saudi Arabia) to force the world into hand. If suddenly, millions of people in the USA and elsewhere were out of work, because oil got so costly that the economy collapsed into a major recession, would you THEN be interested in managing the problem? Whether you like it or not, John, we are in a global economy. Whether you like it or not, your pipe dream of being totally self-sufficient will not occur as long as there is a strong enough group of liberal tree huggers to keep us from developing our own sources. And whether you like it or not, we have a responsibility to peaceful allies. Whether you like it or not, we have to manage global events or risk having them manage us. For all those seeking to live in a Utopia (whether on the far right or left, or in between): it ain't here, yet. And as much as anyone dreams of building it, it isn't going to easily happen even if we save every tree or turn all of the grasslands and tundra into one giant oil field. We can't hide our heads like ostriches. We personally might not see the danger if we do, but our backsides are still out in the open. To try and bring our economy back to a US-only level would devastate our economy for decades. We might as well just give up and call ourselves a third world nation, because that's what would be left of us after we shrank our economy that much. And to try and get a single oil well built with all of the extreme environmental screaming is just a pipe dream. We would have to give up our SUVs, our air conditioners, and much of our economy, in order to reduce our thirst for oil that much. I don't see that as sensible. Attacking Iraq a decade ago was sensible. It was a clear threat to the region, and therefore, to global economies. Gary Smith John W. Redelfs wrote: > > Gerald Smith wrote: > >How about to defend an ally (Kuwait)? Also, how about to defend our oil > >interests? Those are two very important reasons to go into Iraq the > >first time, as well as the second time. > > Kuwait was not an ally. It was a client state that western oil money > set > up in the first place. And we have plenty of oil here at home for our > legitimate needs. > > >What would the economy of the USA been like over the past 10 years if > >Saddam had control of the oil fields in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia? He > >would have jacked the price up, forcing us into $3/gallon a decade ago. > >As it is, most of us grouse at paying above $1.50/gal right now. It > >would have stifled our economy, and enriched someone known to slaughter > >his enemies (foreign and domestic) WITH WMDs, and also spends money on > >many terrorist groups. > > $3/gallon is better than being dependent on imported oil. The only > reason > we are dependent on middle east oil is because we have become addicted > to > the cheap oil. > > >I think we were well within reason to defend and ally and also our > >national security in both efforts. > > I guess we just have different priorities. I don't think it is OK to > kill > people to enjoy a little bit better standard of living when we already > have > one of the highest standards of living in the world. > > > John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] > = > The traditional family is under heavy attack. I do not know > that things were worse in the times of Sodom and Gomorrah. > -- President Gordon B. Hinckley, 2004. > = > All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR > Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// ///
RE: [ZION] The Passion
Now there's a real cynical thing to say about a practicing Catholic! Tying him in with the sleaze bags, joking or not, is not funny at all. Gibson did the film as an expression of faith, whether we like it or not. The filthy priests did their evil deeds as an expression of evil. I'm certain Mel wants wicked priests in jail as much as the rest of us. He would want his religion and faith purified, so that it could serve the Christ well. Wouldn't we want to do the same if we found out that a bunch of Mormons were involved in some sleazy crime? I doubt we'd joke about the Osmonds bailing out child molesters in our Scouting program, eh? It isn't funny at all. Rather, it is morbid to suggest anything like that, even in jest, and is a slam on an individual's personal convictions. Gary Smith Ron Scott wrote: > > John: > > Thanks for sharing your assessment. I think it would make me > want to give up religion as well. > > But others disagree. I just heard opening weekend was the biggest > of all time: $150 Million-plus in gross receipts over two days. > > Perhaps he'll donate so much money to the Catholic Church it will > be able to keep all those priests from going jail. > > RBS > > >-Original Message- > >From: John A. English, n/OEF > >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 10:38 PM > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: RE: [ZION] The Passion > > > > > >Ron, > > > > I went expecting to be encouraged in my faith. > >What I saw was horribly > >graphic and really not much else. There were some > >scenes that relieved the > >pain but overall not enough. The film in being about > >the passion, death and > >resurrection of Christ was not very balanced. There > >was not much time spent > >speaking to the resurrection and a lot of time spent > >beating up in Christ. > > > > Also, it seems to me that the emphasis was very > >much on the evil Jewish > >leaders and at the same time showing Pilate(the real > >villain in my eyes) as > >a thoughtful Roman who cared about his subjects. Then > >Pilate and Jesus > >began speaking Latin whereas most likely Jesus did not > >know Latin, and > >Pilate probably did not know Aramaic, which they had > >him speaking to the > >Jewish leaders. > > > > I left the movie wanting to give up on all religion. > > > > In a positive vein, it did get my attention, and > >I've spent days focusing > >on Christ and his suffering and his gift, almost > >without thinking about > >other things. I think this is positive. > > > >Peace and all good, > >John A.E., n/OEF > > > > The most beautiful thing we can experience is the > >mysterious. It is the > >source of all art and science. He to whom this emotion > >is a stranger, who > >can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is > >as good as dead; his > >eyes are closed. --Einstein (1879-1955) > > > > > > > > > >-Original Message- > >From: RB Scott [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 8:54 PM > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: RE: [ZION] The Passion > > > > > >John: > > > >When you get a moment, I'd love to read your impressions as, > >based upon several reviews, this is not likely to be a > >movie I'll > >see. > > > >Ron > > > >>-Original Message- > >>From: John A. English, n/OEF > >>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 7:15 PM > >>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>Subject: RE: [ZION] The Passion > >> > >> > >> > >>I saw it and it is to me worse than R rated. I wish I > >>had not gone. > >> > >>Peace and all good, > >>John A.E., n/OEF > >> > >> The most beautiful thing we can experience is the > >>mysterious. It is the > >>source of all art and science. He to whom this emotion > >>is a stranger, who > >>can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is > >>as good as dead; his > >>eyes are closed. --Einstein (1879-1955) > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>-Original Message- > >>From: Jonathan Scott [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 9:24 AM > >>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>Subject: [ZION] The Passion > >> > >> > >>FWIW: My mom saw it...which surprised me. > >>She's usually > >>about as straight laced as they come and she said it > >>was amazing. I > >>asked her if she felt bad about having seen it, an R > >>rated movie, and > >>she said no. > >>Just a little more info for everyone to consider I guess. > >>-- > >>Jonathan Scott > >> > >> > >> > >>// > >>/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > >>/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > >> > >> > >>/ > >>--^- > >>--- > >>This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > >>EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: > >>http://lists.topica.com/help/unsub.html.am9obmFl > >>Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > >>TOP
RE: [ZION] Orson Scott Card on Iraq
How about to defend an ally (Kuwait)? Also, how about to defend our oil interests? Those are two very important reasons to go into Iraq the first time, as well as the second time. What would the economy of the USA been like over the past 10 years if Saddam had control of the oil fields in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia? He would have jacked the price up, forcing us into $3/gallon a decade ago. As it is, most of us grouse at paying above $1.50/gal right now. It would have stifled our economy, and enriched someone known to slaughter his enemies (foreign and domestic) WITH WMDs, and also spends money on many terrorist groups. I think we were well within reason to defend and ally and also our national security in both efforts. Gary John W. Redelfs wrote: > > Jim Cobabe wrote: > >John, what say you about this OSC editorial on Bush and Iraq? > > > >http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2004-01-25-1.html > > Orson Scott Card says that the war in Iraq is justified as an extension > of > the first Gulf War even if there were no weapons of mass destruction. I > > say that the first Gulf War was not justified because it was not on our > own > soil. I don't believe in invading foreign countries on a pretext. > --JWR > > > Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] The Return of the King
I also liked Harry Potter (the books are better than the movies), however LOTR movies are very good, though I still love the books more. I don't like much of Salinger. Am a big fan of Dickens and Irving. Dickinson's poetry is some of the best there is: I can still hear the flies buzzing. One of the more intriguing books I'd read in my youth was: My Name Is Asher Lev. Potok's showing ultra-orthodox Jews struggling in a Gentile-Christian world was great. And I always drink my orange juice quickly, so the vitamins don't leak out. Haven't read much Wolfe nor any of Freeman's. Mostly, I read doctrinal writings, science, and translations of ancient writings. Reading Hugh Nibley in my early twenties almost destroyed my brain for anything light hearted or easy. I had to retrain myself to read lighter stuff (like Tolkien ;-) The LOTR is an event-driven story. The world in which the hobbits live is drastically changed, and the epic doesn't end with the destruction of Sauron, but with the reestablishment of the old hobbit order, with the magic folk retiring to other lands over the seas. (for a good explanation of Middle Earth, read Tolkien's Silmarillion, as he explains its entire history). It is an epic. World war, huge years-long journeys, deaths, and moments of hope are all included. Tolkien said he based it upon a medieval Europe with Christian ideals laced within it. Several characters emulate different traits of the Savior: Frodo is the lowly Redeemer and destroyer of the darkness. Aragorn represents the returned King, who conquers his enemies and reigns over a long period of peace. Sam is the symbol of patience and hope in a hopeless situation, returning to the Shire and restoring it after it is destroyed by Saruman (sorry, for those of you who haven't read the book!). There are other symbols in the books, showing that darkness can be destroyed, even when all is seemingly beyond hope. K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. RBS: I liked Harry Potter and have read all the books (because my children have). I liked the movie as well. Ditto Lord of The Rings. However, as a rule, neither are my cups of tea. My tastes and interests run more to the likes of: Dickens, Irving, Roth, Salinger, Dickinson, Potok, Wolfe. I thought Judith Freeman's (my first of her) was well crafted. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Nauvoo Zion reunion
If you drive, you are welcome to stay at the house in Indianapolis along the way. I don't charge much for room and board. ;-) K'aya K'ama Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/ Freedom Forever At 08:47 PM 11/15/2003 -0600, Heidi the fair wrote: >LOVE the suggestion, Gary! We're only 6 hours from Nauvoo...let's plan on >it! Till MAY be able to swing it. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Apocrypha
There are differences in why the Lord canonized the Bible, but not the Apocrypha. First, the Bible is more complete doctrinally, while the Apocrypha does not always concentrate on doctrine or God. Secondly, historically, we aren't completely sure who wrote the books of the Apocrypha (same trouble with a few Bible books, like Hebrews and Revelation). Finally, God need not command in all things. We are to seek out much through the Holy Ghost. Why don't we canonize more General Conference talks? Because there is no need to do so. If the members learn to listen to the Spirit, they will gain the truth, and toss out the errors. As for apocryphal books (not necessarily in the Apocrypha, but early writings) that probably should be in the Bible: Gospel of Thomas, Odes of Solomon, the Testaments of the 12 Patriarchs. K'aya K'ama Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/ Freedom Forever // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Swampy comment
Hey, It isn't my fault you guys have never gotten around to draining your swamps. Protecting your alligators is more important than standing on solid ground, I guess. '-) But it is a pretty city, especially when you are enjoying Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. >Gerald Smith wrote: > >>It's good for us to have more than one viewpoint, even if we don't agree. >>It should challenge us to consider and reconsider our personal ideas on >>things, to ensure we are standing on solid ground, or at least on ground >>that isn't too swampy. >>Gary Smith >=== >Grampa Bill asks: >Is that "swampy" comment another swipe at Savannah? Down here, > standing on swampy land is about our only option. >Love y'all. >Grampa Bill in Savannah // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Nauvoo Zion trip
I'm starting to look at dates for a Nauvoo reunion. I noticed that July 4th is on a Sunday in 2004. It might make for a fun weekend in Nauvoo. Any thoughts on it either way? If everyone likes it, we can plan on that weekend, otherwise I'll keep looking at dates. Gary Smith // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] News sources
Well, the first one on your list already knocks your credibility down quite a ways. the NYTimes group has been riddled with scandle over the past year for fraudulent stories bent on making the left look good and the right look evil. I don't mind a magazine/newspaper slanting a certain direction, as long as they don't make up the facts as they go along. Then there's one other major hit for them: Paul Krugman. Here's a guy that should be in jail (a la Enron), trying to tell us that George W Bush is evil? Come on! Give me a break! The LA Times showed themselves to be rather one-sided in their Thursday-last minute attack on Arnold Schwarzeneggar prior to the election in California. Why didn't they do this weeks before, giving him time to respond? And why didn't they also do the same on Gray Davis? Did you know he had a relationship with a now-famous actress when she was 15 and he was in his twenties? How come that didn't come out on the Thursday before, as well? Where is the fair and balanced? The WSJ is an interesting lot. Their editorial page is extremely conservative, while the news section is run by left-leaners, which is kind of funny for a magazine based on capitalism, eh? But they still seem to try and be balanced on the news section, regardless. What I try to do is read some from both the right and left sides, hoping to gain a balanced perspective from reading the two. Gary Ron: In my opinion, the "news"(this does not include editorialists or editorialists) organizations that are the most reliable are: 1. The New York Times group 2. The Washington Post/LA Times/Newsday/Newsweek group 3. The Wall Street Journal/ Dow Jones // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Good news sources
I've always like Wall Street Journal's best of the web, and the Washington Times. I also recommend Matt Drudge and Neal's Nuze (www.boortz.com) for information. Neal Boortz is a libertarian radio talk show host in Atlanta, so you get some good and interesting viewpoints from him. For libertarian commentary, I like Reason magazine online. (I think they are at www.reason.org). K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Zell Miller
Democratic Senator Zell Miller of Georgia has written an interesting book on his party. He criticizes them for going so far left, and rejecting some of its former ideals, including being the party of the downtrodden and regular guy. I must say, as I recollect my younger years, my parents were stolid Democrats. They voted for JFK, LBJ, voted for HHHumphrey, gathered petition signatures to have Jerry Ford impeached for pardoning Nixon, voted the first time for Carter. But with the majority of America, they started seeing the Dems slip farther and farther to the left until they could no longer recognize it as the party they had believed in for so long. They were Reagan Democrats. With me, they voted the first time for Ross Perot, being disgusted with Bush Sr's lie on "no new taxes." But were even more disgusted with Clinton's lies. Dad's now gone, but Mom is rather satisfied with "W" Bush, though in my view, he's okay, but definitely not a Reagan. I would like to see the Dems return to where they once were. Where the Zell Millers and JFKs had dreams on how the government could work hand in hand with the people of the nation to accomplish much good. Instead, Zell is the lone voice on the national level of the Dems, decrying their socialistic antics and lack of love for America's purpose. I wish we could regain the party of Jefferson, for those of us who truly believe we are Jeffersonian Democrats. Gary Smith Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
Which is what makes having Ron around so fun. It's good for us to have more than one viewpoint, even if we don't agree. It should challenge us to consider and reconsider our personal ideas on things, to ensure we are standing on solid ground, or at least on ground that isn't too swampy. Gary Smith Stephen Beecroft wrote: > > -Ron- > > I love the way some of you apply gospel doctrine in your lives. > > Amazing. > > I've gotta tell you, Ron, that I've been thinking exactly the same thing > > while reading your posts to this list for the last week. > > Stephen Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
Ron, It was tongue in cheek. I guess I should have used an emoticon. Since Till was asking about New York, I used it as the center of the joke. Had it been in the South, I'd might have used Strom Thurmond Gary Ron Scott wrote: > > I love the way some of you apply gospel doctrine in your lives. Amazing. > > RBS > > > -Original Message----- > > From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 11:54 AM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition > > > > > > I don't think Dantes figured on that many layers of hell. Who would have > > > > known that NY would elect Hitlary, Schumer, and isn't there a Kennedy in > > > > there somewhere also? > > > > Gary Smith > > > > Elmer L. Fairbank wrote: > > > > > > At 07:57 PM 11/13/2003 -0500, St Jon wrote: > > > >If this were lds-poll, I would say that there was a third hell, > > > >something > > > >about Mass. and one of their Senators. > > > > > > > > > Hey, what about us New Yorkers? > > > > > > Till the downtrodden > > > > > > > > > > > Gerald (Gary) Smith > > geraldsmith@ juno.com > > http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom > > > > // > > > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > // > > /// > > > > > Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Thoughts on Ted Kennedy and Communism
They spent years angry with one another for the political rivalry they had, refusing to speak to each other. Then in their elder years, they began writing to one another. They forgave each other and became close pen pals. Interesting that John Adams' last words were: "Thomas Jefferson still lives", yet Jefferson had passed away a few hours before IIRC. Gary Steven Montgomery wrote: > > At 10:13 AM 11/14/2003, Gary wrote: > > >define freedom. There are huge chasms of difference between John Adams > >the forefather and Thomas Jefferson the forefather. > > Whatever differences they had, I find it interesting, and perhaps not > mere > coincidental, that both men died within hours of each other, July 4th > 1826--the Jubilee (Fiftieth) anniversary of the signing of the > Declaration > of Independence. > > > > -- > Steven Montgomery > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Do I err, then, in believing that the universe is built upon symbols, to > > the end that it may bear record of its all-wise Architect and Builder? > God > teaches with symbols; it is his favorite method of teaching. The Savior > often used them. (Orson F. Whitney, Improvement Era, August 1927) > Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Thoughts on Ted Kennedy and Communism
Well, Ron, you asked us to tell what we believe and not quote others. I did just as you asked. Now, does this mean I think everyone in Europe or China is evil? Of course not. I think tyranny holds down the very good and humble people as effectively as it does the wicked. Just look at how the Lamanites and priests of Noah controlled the lives of Alma and his people, until they were able to escape. Now, I hope I'm wrong about the Beasts, etc. And I admit it is my opinion. But just because you disagree with it, does not make it wrong. I explained my thoughts on it briefly, and you simply attacked it as, and I quote, "B.S." Surely someone with as much knowledge of worldly things as you can come up with some logical argument. Try dissuading me with cogent arguments, rather than attacking me personally, eh? I know about Europe. I have a Master's Degree in history, and my key area of study was Europe. There are major factors that differentiate the American Revolution from the French Revolution. Those factors remain valid today, and are the key reasons for the rifts between the two nations. Depending upon whose ground one stands, I suppose you could see the other group as unstable, wrong-headed, and perhaps even evil. When Gore Vidal says that Bush would have been hanged by the Founding Fathers for being a despot, he obviously meant the forefathers of the French. His is clearly a European argument, which unsurprisingly, is the argument used by many (not all) liberals here. Why some liberals feel more free in France than here, is simply an issue of how (or what) they define freedom. There are huge chasms of difference between John Adams the forefather and Thomas Jefferson the forefather. I highly doubt Jefferson would have hung Bush. OTOH, the French slew thousands who disagreed with the political flavor of the month. We hear of guillotines, but few know of how people were tied to boats that were sunk, or were staked in fields where cannons were shot to slay them. The French political establishment was one where one had to remain in the "center" (which was continually moving further left), while the enemies of the right were killed. Today, outspoken voices are rarely heard in France, because there is little actual freedom of opinion or speech there. Meanwhile, over the past few decades, American freedom of speech has been enhanced and grown by a variety of television, radio, and internet blogs that cover all spectrums of the political wavelength. Gary Ron Scott wrote: > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 7:53 AM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: [ZION] Thoughts on Ted Kennedy and Communism > > > > > > > > Ron Scott tried to excuse Ted's behavior by the deaths of his > > brothers, and asked for what danger there is from communism today.<< > > I did nothing of the kind, friend. Nor do I see any correlation between > communism and Ted Kennedy. > > > > Let me answer both. First, Ted's behavior came along way before > > any of his brothers died. Chappaquidick shows us just what kind > > of a person he is. < > > Wrong, again. The incident at Chappaquiddick (correct SPELLING) was > July, > 1969. JFK was assassinated in November of 1963; RFK was gunned down in > July > of 1968. Teddy's behavior after the accident was reprehensible. > > >occured after the assassinationWhile John Kennedy risked his life for > >his > men > > on his PT boat, and with his brother, Bobby Kennedy, stood firm > > against communism in the Cuba Missile Crisis; we have Teddy going > > his own spoiled brat way. < > > I agree, he was a spoiled brat with a mjaor league drinking problem. He > arrived in Utah in 1968 and his first question to reporters was: "where > can > I get a drink?" > > >Mort Sahl, the comedian and political > > commentator once mentioned how people would grab him and say, > > "you've got to see this new senator, he's just like JFK" or "This > > new guy is just like Bobby." Mort wondered if there was anyone > > that wasn't like JFK or Bobby, and then it dawned on him: Teddy. > > If anything, Teddy sold out to communist/extreme liberal > > interests long ago, and shares nothing with his older brothers > > except the now misnomered label "Democrat." < > > As you noted correctly, Mort Sahl was a comedian. > > SNIP. I did not attempt to compare Ted to John or Bobby. Not once. Not > ever. > I simply said that we, who are no position to judge him anyway, ought to > take into account the fact that his three older brothers -- Joe, Ja
RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
I don't think Dantes figured on that many layers of hell. Who would have known that NY would elect Hitlary, Schumer, and isn't there a Kennedy in there somewhere also? Gary Smith Elmer L. Fairbank wrote: > > At 07:57 PM 11/13/2003 -0500, St Jon wrote: > >If this were lds-poll, I would say that there was a third hell, > >something > >about Mass. and one of their Senators. > > > Hey, what about us New Yorkers? > > Till the downtrodden > Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Thoughts on Ted Kennedy and Communism
Ron Scott tried to excuse Ted's behavior by the deaths of his brothers, and asked for what danger there is from communism today. Let me answer both. First, Ted's behavior came along way before any of his brothers died. Chappaquidick shows us just what kind of a person he is. While John Kennedy risked his life for his men on his PT boat, and with his brother, Bobby Kennedy, stood firm against communism in the Cuba Missile Crisis; we have Teddy going his own spoiled brat way. Mort Sahl, the comedian and political commentator once mentioned how people would grab him and say, "you've got to see this new senator, he's just like JFK" or "This new guy is just like Bobby." Mort wondered if there was anyone that wasn't like JFK or Bobby, and then it dawned on him: Teddy. If anything, Teddy sold out to communist/extreme liberal interests long ago, and shares nothing with his older brothers except the now misnomered label "Democrat." JFK lowered taxes, while there hasn't been a tax increase that Teddy didn't think was too small. JFK fought for American strength, freedom, and independence in developing programs like the space program. Teddy has sought to expand welfare services at the expense of the welfare recipients, who are enslaved in a system they can scarcely break out of. Now, as for communism's modern threat. I don't look at it as a threat by communism, but by tyrannical ideologies. Ideologies that seek to reach their goals by enslaving or killing millions are evil. America should not support nor sustain any of them, except in encouraging them to become free republics. Then, I read the Revelation of John as discussing Beasts, etc. I see the first Beast as the European Union, with its disgust for true freedom and desire to establish a major economic system enforced everywhere (which is what the Beast does. You can't buy nor sell without its mark: the Euro?). Then, the Dragon is China, which is becoming a world power. Finally, the second Beast will be the Muslim nations, as they enhance in power, and as Europe embraces them in their disgust toward Israel, and in their attempt to pacify terrorists. I am not a capitalist, BTW. I believe it is just as easy to push capitalism in communist China as it is to do it here. I am a believer in human liberty, not given by the state, but by God. This is the clencher that separates free republics like the USA from many of its counterparts in Europe. France and Germany believe in freedom, only as long as it doesn't bother the politicians. France doesn't have several viewpoints readily available to its people, but only that of the ruling party. They seek to secularize the EU, getting rid of Christianity, rather than allowing religious freedom, but recognizing its roots: both the good and bad of it all. I see a grave danger coming in the name of capitalism and false democracies that embrace tyrannical governments. We have been known to do it in the past, but hopefully we are learning we cannot do so any longer. Meanwhile much of Europe is becoming one of the world's greatest dangers because of its embracing terrorist nations and ideologies. K'aya K'ama Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/ Freedom Forever // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
Personally, I think it will start as a war of words, then move on to violence. The wicked will not prevail, but that doesn't mean they don't make their attempts. For example, what is the logic in suicide/homicide bombing? Yes, you create terror, but you often lose more people than you take out. In wars past, Muslims in Libya and elsewhere were known to tie their legs back to their thigh, so they couldn't run from Hitler's tanks, while shooting with 19th century weapons. Logic isn't required for crazed men to start a violent overthrow. And when Satan gathers his force, they may not have the ability to win, but that may not stop them from thinking they can through violent efforts. Ragnarok, all over again Gary Elmer L. Fairbank wrote: > > At 09:11 AM 11/13/2003 -0500, Uncle Ron wrote: > > > >Cool your fighting blood and freshen your synapses, Till. If Brother > >McConkie is right this will obviously be a war of words -- of good > >thinking/doing prevailing over evil. Otherwise, s'plain to me how one > >would > >go about slaying the a spirit, or one of the Three Nephites, for > >instance. > > > Skewer them with the sword of truth. Gets 'em every time. (right in > the > gizzard) > > Till, oilin' up his sword and gettin' ready to roll > > > Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] The Descent of Man
John, Now you are just going to have to accept the fact that some things have not been revealed yet. We can only speculate on the descent of man, whether there was an evolution involved or not. My speculation is that the scriptures were written on a personal/lineage history level. In the current FARMS magazine, discussing DNA and the BoM, Sorensen explains what personal/lineage histories of small groups are. As far as they are concerned, the universe revolves around them, and they view events in terms they understand. Amazingly, we do the same today. 9/11 or Pearl Harbor only have value inasmuch as we place value there personally. When our personal worlds are falling apart, it seems the whole world is coming unglued. And when we are doing great, we often forget the pains that still occur throughout the rest of the world. Given archaeology's estimate that there were only 1-200 million people alive in Abraham's day throughout the world, we can understand how unpopulated many places would be, especially further back in Adam's day. We are possibly talking of just a few million people, according to archaeology. It would be very easy to believe him to be the only person upon the earth. Or, it is very possible that the Lord allowed Adam to be first man, and those before him were not counted as in the population of mankind. We worry about thousands and millions of years, when God works in multi-billion years and perhaps much longer periods of mortal time. Was God the Father around prior to the creation of this universe 15 billion years ago? Perhaps. Does it matter? Not really. Did he create this earth 4 billion or 6 thousand years ago? Doesn't matter, either way. He's free to do it any way he likes. Is the Bible a perfect history? Possibly, but not necessarily so. It is highly likely that scribes down the road from Moses could have enhanced some of the story. Why else would there be two creation stories in the Bible? Yes, I know some claim one to be a spiritual creation and the other a physical - but if so, which is which? If the second is the physical creation, then there's no mention of creating Day and Night, earth and water, etc. We just have a general creation, and then man shows up in the Garden. As for the creation stories in the Book of Moses and the endowment, we still don't know whether we are learning about the spiritual creation or the physical one. And there is Book of J evidence of a third-type of creation story within the Bible that falls in line with ancient Babylonian/Sumerian Creation stories (including God having to fight and destroy Leviathan). So, which one do we fully rely upon? Traditionally, we take Genesis 1, and follow it. But it isn't necessarily that easy once we look deeper into the scriptures. Do i believe Adam was a historical person? Absolutely! I just don't know if he was physically the father of all humans, or symbolically the father of all humans. After all, did God create him out of the dust of the earth as the scriptures tell us, or was he transplanted here from another world, as suggested by Brigham Young? More speculation! Gary K'aya K'ama Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/ Freedom Forever // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Punch their lights out
Ron, And yet it is the ACLU that has pushed for access on the sidewalks around Temple Square. Interesting that their disgust motivates the ACLU into pushing for even more disgusting civil liberties, eh? I'm all for freedom of speech, but I also believe that personal property rights need to be respected, as well. The Church has offered a generous trade to the city of 2 acres land in exchange for the rights of access, yet the ACLU continues to fight it. I think your friends who are disgusted do not protest enough. Or at least do not protest enough in the direction they should. In my opinion, the terrible events that antis are doing in front of the temple are just as much the fault of the ACLU as of the Antis doing it. They are often the ennablers of such wicked and sordid craft. K'aya K'ama Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/ Freedom Forever Ron:I know Doug Robinson is not dense, but it seems to me that he should have figured out long ago that in these hyper-media times John Wayne types would get more attention than the meek and mild of the world. The fallout from the demonstrations around Temple Square this Fall has been interesting. A high school classmate of mine, an ACLU lawyer, was absolutely disgusted by the vile protestors and so were many, most of her colleagues. RBS // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
There may very well be resurrected beings in this event. However, once resurrection occurs, IMHO, the desires for evil or good are already established. Once Satan is loosed, he will gather an army from amongst those still living upon the earth. However, it will not be anywhere near the numbers he has already taken with him. In a world populated with 10 billion people, I would imagine his army would be in the millions at most. Now, will that final war be fought just amongst mortals, or will it also be fought by spiritual beings on both sides, also? (on the lines of the legendary last battles of the Norse Gods at Ragnarock?) Gary Smith John W. Redelfs wrote: > > Gerald Smith wrote: > >But the longlasting Outer Darkness made for Sons of Perdition is a place > > > >which already will be quite filled with the third of heaven that has > >already chosen it. Given 16 billion people estimated have already walked > > > >the earth, that means a minimum of 8 billion spirits rejected God in the > > > >Spirit World. There just won't be very many mortals going there, as > >they > >don't have enough knowledge to choose it (and given they have already > >rejected Satan's plan once, most probably won't change their minds and > >choose his plan later). > > Those who are mortal now don't have enough knowledge to choose to be > Sons > of Perdition, but what about after the resurrection of the wicked? > Isn't > there going to be another great war after the Millennium? Those who > fight > against Christ as resurrected beings following the resurrection of the > wicked will have enough knowledge then, won't they? Or is this war > going > to be fought strictly between those who are mortal upon the earth then? > > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > === > "While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we > must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, > soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding." (President > Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) > === > All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR > Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Punch Their Lights Out
I guess it all depends on whose stream you are in that determines whether we are "mainstream" or not. When it comes to following the Lord's prophets, I'll try my best to be as mainstream as possible. Interesting how hard it is to turn the other cheek at times. Do we do as the pacifist Lamanites and lay down our weapons of war, or do we send off our sons to do the fighting for us, as they did? I guess it depends upon each and every situation, and what God expects in that moment of decision. Since these anti-Mormon demonstrators are not physically attacking the saints, there should be no reason to get physical ourselves. Only in the event of an actual attack should we consider fighting, and then only in self defense if possible. Of course, there always are exceptions, such as when God told Nephi to slay Laban (somewhat pre-emptive, I must say). But there is a standard, and then there are exceptions, and we should preach, teach and follow the standard. Gary Smith Tom Matkin wrote: > > Stacy, > > That was my point exactly. We will not be mainstream if we continue to > resist evil with good. The mainstream response would be to resist evil > with evil. We are not conforming to the world in this, we are making our > way following the principles outlined by Christ. > > Tom > > > -Original Message- > > From: Stacy Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: November 12, 2003 7:40 AM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: [ZION] Punch Their Lights Out > > > > Whoever said we were supposed to be mainstream? Aren't we supposed to > not > > be conformed to this world? > > > > Stacy. > > > > At 01:20 PM 10/31/2003 -0700, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > > From: Jim Cobabe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Sent: October 31, 2003 11:05 AM > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Subject: RE: [ZION] Punch Their Lights Out > > > > > > > > > > > > 99,997 ignored antagonists > > > > By Doug Robinson > > > > Deseret Morning News > > > > > > > > > > > >Like a lot of people, you're probably still trying to make > > >sense > > > > of the ongoing debate regarding the street preachers and the > stormin' > > > > Mormons. > > > > > >Matthew 5: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but > whosoever > > >shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. > > > > > >Romans 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things > honest > > >in the sight of all men. > > >18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with > all > > >men. > > >19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto > > >wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the > > >Lord. > > >20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him > > >drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. > > >21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. > > > > > >Matthew 5: 43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love > thy > > >neighbour, and hate thine enemy. > > >44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, > do > > >good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use > > >you, and persecute you; > > >45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for > he > > >maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain > on > > >the just and on the unjust. > > >46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not > even > > >the publicans the same? > > >47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? > do > > >not even the publicans so? > > > > > >I have walked past those "preachers" at the gates of the Conference > > >Centre and have been tested to just walk on by and leave vengeance to > > >God. Everything in the media patterns an aggressive response - well > > >everything since that strange western TV series years ago where > > >"Grasshopper" (David Carradine as Caine) was supposed to take all > kinds > > >of abuse, although it seems to me that in the end, even he, turned to > > >Kung Fu (after all that's what the series was called) to solve his > > >problems, his pacifism usually was what got him into trouble. > > > > > >If we continue to resist evil with good we will never be mainstream. > > > > > >Tom > > > > > > >/// > // > > / > > >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > >/// > // > > > > > > > > -- > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > // > > > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > > //
[ZION] Israel in Egypt
There are no external sources that discuss the Exodus. What we do have is an overall archaeological source that shows that Egypt lost power around this time in the Levant (the area around Canaan/Palestine/Israel), and it became a period when Sea Peoples (Philistines, etc) and Semites (including Israel) started settling the area. K'aya K'ama Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/ Freedom Forever -- Stacy: I would like to know more about this and to confirm exactly what the Hebrews had to do in their slavery and how they left by other sources. Stacy. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Sons of Perdition
There are two hells. The first is in the Spirit World, and it IS a wide path that leads to that hell. Damnation is another thing, as it refers to anyone whose eternal progress is limited. This can include those in the Terrestrial Kingdom (and perhaps angels in the Celestial Kingdom as well). But the longlasting Outer Darkness made for Sons of Perdition is a place which already will be quite filled with the third of heaven that has already chosen it. Given 16 billion people estimated have already walked the earth, that means a minimum of 8 billion spirits rejected God in the Spirit World. There just won't be very many mortals going there, as they don't have enough knowledge to choose it (and given they have already rejected Satan's plan once, most probably won't change their minds and choose his plan later). K'aya K'ama Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/ Freedom Forever Stacy: This I have read, but what about the broad way which we are told will be followed by many? Stacy. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Sandy's Saturnalia question
The heating problem may also be the computer chip. I had to have mine replaced, and they say it is one of the more common problems with the older Saturns. As for the tranny, you'll have to decide whether it is worth it or not. With that many miles on it, I'd suggest just driving it until it no longer drives, and in the meantime, save up your money for a "new" used car. K'aya K'ama Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/ Freedom Forever Sandy: I've got a '95 Saturn also, an SL1, that's at 215,000+ miles. But there are several problems with the car that have accumulated over the last few months, the most serious of which seems to be the transmission. Currently it drives and shifts OK, but I'm hearing the beginning of banging and grinding noises, especially on the lower gears. And then besides all this, it overheats when the A/C is on (hopefully just a thermostat issue), it needs new tires, I'm told it needs an alignment, it leaks or burns oil at the rate of 2-3 quarts every 3,000 miles, and I'm beginning to think I may need a new battery. But even with all this, the car seems at the moment to be drivable. That said: I'm thinking I might be able to put $500-700 into the car and get everything taken care of except for the transmission. But I fear the transmission is a whole different animal...wouldn't that be hundreds of dollars just for someone to look at it...? So I'm wondering if I've finally reached the point where I need to junk the car. Melinda leans in that direction...I guess I do also, but we're not in a position, quite honestly, to buy a used car, much less a new one. It's a bit of a dilemma. :-o /Sandy/ // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Signs of Times
I use them to balance out the legs on a wobbly table I have K'aya K'ama Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/ Freedom Forever JWR: How do these signs of the times help you? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] The play's the thing.
Tom's ideas are good, too. However, I don't know how you are going to get those awesome Matrix special effects to ever come out. I mean, it is one thing to see them on the big screen, but in person? Maybe if you plugged all the parents into the machinery, like in the real Matrix. Hm. Gary Tom Matkin wrote: > > Gary's idea is perfect. To jumpstart the process you could base the > play on a nursery story like the three little pigs, Chicken Little or > the Matrix sequel 9. Teach them the nursery story then if the ideas > don't flow, get a video camera out, do some casting and turn them loose. > "Hey you, you're the goose, you over there, you are the golden egg > (remember to emote!) and you in the corner, you are the golden harp and > who wants to be Jack, where's our giant and the seven fairy princesses > and the wicked step mother and Toto and the wicked witch of the west?" > > Tom > > > -Original Message- > > From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: November 10, 2003 9:32 AM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: [ZION] The play's the thing. > > > > > > > > I suggest you have the kids write one. They can use their strength > inthe > > language to write it, come up with their own story line, and put it > down > > in English words. Then you can help them correct it, and then practice > the > > play. In this way, they are not just memorizing a play, but actually > > using their command of the English language to translate, etc. > > > > And if that doesn't work, the Mikado is always a good bet in English > OR > > Japanese. ;-) > > > > K'aya K'ama > > Gerald Smith > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/ > > Freedom Forever > > > > > > Cousin Bill: > > Attempt to start new thread #3. > > > > As many of you know, I reside in Japan, making my living by > > babysitting kids ... I mean teaching kids English lessons. -- > > One thing I would like to try to do is put on a program for these > > kids' parents to make them think that I'm actually doing some > > work. I know that ELF and Tom Matkin have made reference to > > being in various dramatic productions. I'm sure there are > > probably others as well. Does anyone here have any ideas on > > where I could find simple plays (the operative word being > > "simple") that these kids with little English experience could > > learn and perform? These would NOT by LDS-central, though for > > little kids I don't suppose there would be anything too weird. > > > > I think my attempt to start a new thread is really stretching it > > now. > > > > Cousin Bill > > > > > > // > > > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > > // > > /// > > > Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] The play's the thing.
I suggest you have the kids write one. They can use their strength inthe language to write it, come up with their own story line, and put it down in English words. Then you can help them correct it, and then practice the play. In this way, they are not just memorizing a play, but actually using their command of the English language to translate, etc. And if that doesn't work, the Mikado is always a good bet in English OR Japanese. ;-) K'aya K'ama Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/ Freedom Forever Cousin Bill: Attempt to start new thread #3. As many of you know, I reside in Japan, making my living by babysitting kids ... I mean teaching kids English lessons. -- One thing I would like to try to do is put on a program for these kids' parents to make them think that I'm actually doing some work. I know that ELF and Tom Matkin have made reference to being in various dramatic productions. I'm sure there are probably others as well. Does anyone here have any ideas on where I could find simple plays (the operative word being "simple") that these kids with little English experience could learn and perform? These would NOT by LDS-central, though for little kids I don't suppose there would be anything too weird. I think my attempt to start a new thread is really stretching it now. Cousin Bill // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Thrift!
My wife drives a 1995 Ford Ranger that we bought for $5500 3 years ago. When they checked our credit worthiness, the dealer asked us if we wouldn't rather buy one of the new $30,000 trucks instead. I explained to him that's why my credit was so good. My car is a 1995 Saturn. I bought it almost 2 years ago for $1500, with 200K miles on it. It now has $240K miles on it and still running great. I think my next car might be a Saturn, also. The most I've spent on a car was $10K for a 93 Ford Tempo w/11K miles and a 3 year warranty. I don't think I'll ever spend that much on a car again. The least expensive car I've owned was a 1961 Karman Ghia that my Dad bought for my 18th birthday for me from my great uncle's estate for $50. We sold it for $350 on my mission. My favorite car was my MGB. Baby blue with racing stripe and top down. Man, it was fun driving around Forth Worth in that thing. Of course, when it broke down (which was often), it cost an arm and a leg to get it fixed. There just aren't parts for them, nor are there many mechanics who understand British auto technology. K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Sons of perdition
I don't think a person needs to necessarily "see" God with his mortal eyes. But the Holy Spirit's witness must be so strong as to totally remove all doubt. Joseph Smith once said that we must look directly at the Sun and say it does not exist; to give an idea of what it means to deny the Holy Ghost. That tells me that most of us who have experienced the converting power of the Holy Ghost just have not received it strongly enough to know for certain. And I include myself in that group. I just haven't received a strong enough witness to become a son of perdition, if I were to choose right now to rebel totally against God. K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. JWR: Gerald Smith wrote: >I have some quotes here, which will show that one must do more than >receive the Holy Ghost and reject it to become a candidate for perdition. >You will see that one must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens >opened up, know God, and then totally and completely rebel. I agree with this, but what does it mean to "have the heavens opened up, and know God?" Can a person gain a perfect knowledge so that faith is dormant by the witness of the Holy Ghost alone? Or does he actually have to see the face of God? --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Introducing Gary Smith
Okay, here's my bio: Born in 1959 in Spokane Washington. Son of Ken and Antonia Smith. He was born in Hailey Idaho, she in Dickinson ND. His ancestry is mostly British/Scot. Hers is entirely German-Russian Catholics. Raised most of my life in/near Missoula Montana, I grew up with my 3 brothers and 4 sisters in an extremely inactive family. LDS friends of mine introduced me to the Church in 1975, and I was baptized Dec 20th of that year. Within a year, I was absorbing LDS scriptures, having read the Book of Mormon, D&C, New Testament and a Marvelous Work and a Wonder in that timeframe. Served my mission to Bolivia from Dec 1978-80. I converted hundreds of thousands of the people there, it's just that most of them don't realize it, yet. ;-) Returned, moved to Salt Lake City, Holladay area. Married Laura Thurber in Feb 82, within a couple months, she got bored with me and we were quickly into family counseling. Left for the Air Force in Oct 82, with her filing for divorce while I was in Basic Training and Tech School. Survived Air Force Law Enforcement and K9 training. Divorced finalized on my first day at my first assignment in Fort Worth Texas (Carswell AFB). Worked with patrol and explosive detection dogs there. In 1985, sent to Korea for a year, where I guarded the base's fence line from invasions. I was very successful, as no North Korean attacks occurred at my base during my 12 month stint there. While in Korea, I started writing an old friend, Ramona Jackson. We sent photos of ourselves to each other (crossed in the mail), and both had a strong Holy Spirit-like feeling that we should see more of each other, upon seeing the photos. Returned home in Feb 86, spent two weeks in SLC, where my parents and family had migrated to and become active. Then went to Indianapolis to visit Ramona. In one week, we were engaged. I went to Mississippi for 6 weeks for cross training into computers, and then was assigned to Gunter Air Force Station, Montgomery AL in June. Ramona and I tied the Celestial knot in the Chicago temple on August 16, 1986; and I moved her and her three kids down with me. The Air Force left me at Gunter for the next 16.5 years working in the computer field, until I retired on Nov 1, 2002. We spent a couple months selling our home and visiting family, then moved to Indianapolis in January of this year. All three kids are grown. Aaron is married with 5 kids, in the Air Force in Las Vegas (Explosives Ordnance Disposal expert). Michal, our daughter, is married in Montgomery; her husband photographs genealogy records there for the Church. Our youngest, John, returned from his Alaskan mission in Oct 2002, and has been working since. He has had two experiences I have not yet had the experience to have: meet John Redelfs and taste Esperanza's cooking. I am now working as an office manager for an LDS owned company that makes components for race cars (mostly Indy and Nascar). So, when your favorite driver crosses the finish line, chances are we've made his oil pump, exhaust, or hubs. We purchased an older 1935 home, two blocks from Ramona's brother, who is bishop here in Plainfield. I have 4 years until I'm in danger of that bishop calling-thingy. I am the 11 year old scout leader, and Ramona teaches 4 year old Primary. Previous callings: Bishopric (2x), Stake Mission Presidency (2x), Ward mission leader (3x), stake clerk (2x), ward clerk, ward exec secretary, Melchizedek Priesthood Group Leader, YM President, choir director. My favorite church calling experiences: in the choirs for the Korean and Birmingham AL temple dedications; and Leader for the new group (now branch) in Tuskegee AL. Ordained an elder in 1978, and a high priest in 1989. Hobbies: Reading (gospel, history, science, some fiction); walking/biking; Internet. I'm also a hat wearer, only started wearing ball caps in the last 6 years. My favorite hat right now is my Boy Scout fedora, one of several I've owned over the years. I've been on the Internet since 1986, and was an active member of some early LDS email lists, like: Morm-Ant (run by Bill Hamblin, prof at BYU). I was one of Zion's first members, as JWR , I and a few others tired of the anti-Mormon attacks found at Mormon-L. I was the list co-owner for a time, until early this year when I left for a break, due to the direction this list was going. I decided, with the death of my dear friend Marc Schindler, to return, so I could enjoy the presence of JWR, Val, Stephen, Steven, Tom, Scott, Ron, David, and many others that I've come to know as close friends over the many years. I have met a few Zion members over the years, including Tom Valleta, Scott and Doug McGee, Dave Kenison and Dave Crockett, Tami Reber (who is like a kid sister to me that I haven't heard from in years), Heidi, etc. I look forward to meeting those in the Indiana/Midwest area. What I would love, is for us to plan a Nauvoo reunion get-together next summer. Meet on a Saturday, go
[ZION] Dungeons and Dragons
I am a Neutral Good Elf Barbarian BTW, there are also personality tests out there for Star Trek personalities, M&M, muppets, XMen and cartoon villains. Here are a few links: http://www.geocities.com/windowkachan/personality/dbz/ http://www.roxydoll.com/~erin/quiz/ http://startrek.about.com/library/weekly/aa080201.htm http://mewing.net/cryquiz.html http://www.geraldfield.com/cgi-bin/unofficial/quizzes/sfesurvey.cgi?whatm uppetareyou http://www.mutedfaith.com/quiz/vq.htm http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~alyssa13/xmen/ K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Val's dating
Val, I'll see what I can find down here in the Indy area. I hope it is close enough for you. ;-) I know they have a decent singles program here, what with two stakes to choose from. Maybe you ought to consider coming down for some of the events. If interested, let me know and I'll get you in touch with some of the singles here. Gary // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Sons of perdition
I have some quotes here, which will show that one must do more than
receive the Holy Ghost and reject it to become a candidate for perdition.
You will see that one must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens
opened up, know God, and then totally and completely rebel.
Gary
Mormon Doctrine tells us about sons of perdition:
Disobedience
See CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE, OBEDIENCE, REBELLION. Nonconformity to
divine standards of personal righteousness constitutes disobedience. All
men are either obedient or disobedient; they either keep the commandments
or fail to do so; either neglect or refusal to conform to gospel
standards classifies a person as a rebel.
Disobedience is of the devil, "That wicked one cometh and taketh away
light and truth, through disobedience, from the children of men, and
because of the traditions of their fathers." ("D&C 93:39) By disobedience
men gain membership in the kingdom of the devil, as he operates it on
earth, in the spirit world, and among the resurrected rebels of eternity.
The most violent and destructive of all disobedience is the complete and
open rebellion against light and truth which makes a person a son of
perdition. Those who love darkness rather than light, their deeds being
evil, "receive their wages of whom they list to obey." ("D&C 29:45
in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism, we read:
In LDS scripture Lucifer and cain are called Perdition, meaning
"destruction" ("D&C 76:; "moses 5:Moses 4:1-4) and mortals who commit the
unpardonable sin against the Holy Ghost will inherit the same condition
as Lucifer and Cain, and thus are called "sons of perdition."
1391Perdition is both a place and a spiritual condition. As a place, it
is synonymous with that hell to which both unembodied and resurrected
sons of perdition will be consigned following the last judgment (" Ne.
28:23; "D&C 29:38; TPJS, p. 361). This future kingdom of the devil will
be devoid of any of the Spirit and glory of God. ("D&C 88:24).
Sons of perdition are not merely wicked; they are incorrigibly evil. In
sinning against the revelations of the Holy Ghost, they have sinned
against the greater light and knowledge of God. They willfully and
utterly pervert principles of righteousness and truth with which they
were once endowed, and transform them into principles of evil and
deception. Joseph Smith declared, "You cannot save such persons; you
cannot bring them to repentance" (TPJS, p. 358). No divine principle can
cleanse the sons of perdition; following the last judgment, they will
remain "filthy still" ("D&C 29:44D&C 29:44;"D&C 88:35 88:35). It is
revealed that "it had been better for them never to have been born" ("D&C
76:32D&C 76:32).
AND
Unpardonable Sin
1499The gravest of all sins is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. One may
speak even against Jesus Christ in ignorance and, upon repentance, be
forgiven, but knowingly to sin against the Holy Ghost by denying its
influence after having received it is unpardonable ("matt. 12:31"matt.
12:32Matt. 12:31-32; "jacob 7:19Jacob 7:19; "alma 39:6Alma 39:6), and the
consequences are inescapable. Such denial dooms the perpetrator to the
hell of the second spiritual death (TPJS, p. 361). This extreme judgment
comes because the person sins knowingly against the light, thereby
severing himself from the redeeming grace of Christ. He is numbered with
the sons of perdition ("D&C 76:43D&C 76:43).
1499The Prophet Joseph Smith explained, "No man can commit the
unpardonable sin after the dissolution of the body, nor in this life,
until he receives the Holy Ghost" (TPJS, p. 357). To commit the
unpardonable sin, a person "must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens
opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him. After a man has
sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him
. he has
got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened to him, and to
deny the Plan of Salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it" (TPJS,
p. 358; cf. "heb. 10:26"heb. 10:27"heb. 10:28"heb. 10:29Heb. 10:26-29).
AND
Ultimate and total damnation comes only to the devil and his angels, who
rebelled in the first estate, and to the sons of perdition, who are
damned eternally and denied entrance into any kingdom of glory hereafter
("D&C 76:32). The sons of perdition are those guilty of unpardonable sin
against the Holy Ghost ("D&C 132:27); cf. "mark 3:29), which includes the
willful denial of the "Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified
him unto themselves and put him to an open shame" ("D&C 76:35).
And
All except the sons of perdition will eventually accept Christ and obey
him, and thereby escape the dominion of Satan ("D&C 76:110). Thus is the
Father's plan of agency fulfilled.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
//
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[ZION] Feng Shui?
It is an oriental method of arranging your furniture so you get to heaven quicker. Or, maybe it is to allow the right vibes to flow through your house. Yeah, something like that. My wife owns both a book on Feng Shui and a parody called Wrong Shui (which I got for her, of course). K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. Jim asked: What is feng shui? How does it reconcile with living the gospel of Christ? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Official Declaration #2
Ah, but you stopped short in your reading of 131. "he cannot have an increase" is followed by "worlds without end." To me, this not suggest forever, but rather a very long time, seemingly to the mortal mind an eternity. But then, the term "Eternal" has an interesting definition in D&C 19, where it is one of God's names. So even if the scriptures said that a person was "eternally damned", it does not necessarily mean forever, but rather is damned by God. Aren't word definitions interesting? ;-) K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. Sandy wrote: But in D&C 131, it says over in verse 4, referencing those who do not enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage, "He may enter into the other [meaning one of the lower heavens or degrees], but that is the end of his kingdom: *he cannot have an increase*." That strongly suggests to me an inability to progress, or at a very minimum, the inability to have infinite might or dominion. This is despite the fact that we're still speaking of the celestial heavens--not of the terrestial or telestial worlds. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
Seems to me that a few years ago this list had a single sister on it who said she preferred being single in the Celestial Kingdom, and just being a ministering angel in God's presence. That being the case, there may be more to this than we think... Gary Sandy and Melinda Rabinowitz wrote: > > George Cobabe wrote: > > > > There are those on this list that in the past have argued that Eternal > > Marriage is NOT essential for exaltation. Exaltation is living in the > > presence of God the Father and receiving His blessings. Yet it is > > suggested > > that to live in the Celestial Kingdom it is not necessary to have an > > Eternal > > Marriage. > > Still, it's possible to be in the Celestial Kingdom and NOT be exalted. > > I think that's where the misunderstanding among members comes in. D&C > 131 indicates that temple marriage is needed for the *highest degree* of > > the Celestial Kingdom. On the basis of that scripture, it does appear > that a single person might be able to enter at the lowest degree. > > But the lower degrees of the Celestial Kingdom represent a type of > eternal damnation. Yes, persons designated for that place can be in the > > presence of both the Father and the Son, but exaltation goes beyond > being in their presence, and means becoming as God in all things, up to > and including godhood. If you can receive a degree of Celestial Glory, > yet be unable to attain the status of godhood (being designated, for > instance, as a ministering angel), then by definition, one's progression > > stops and damnation occurs. > > Still, in practical terms, I don't know how likely it would be for a > single person to reach the lower degrees of the Celestial Kingdom. For > if someone desires to enter into the covenant, makes the needed > sacrifices, yet cannot locate a suitable companion, teachings indicate > that provision will be made later in the post-mortal existance. At the > other extreme, someone who goes out of their way to avoid temple > marriage could be judged as being rebellious or disobedient...perhaps > the judgment might even be in the direction of the Terrestrial Kingdom? > > In the middle, I suppose, are those individuals who seek to be obedient > in the Gospel in most things, yet don't care one way or the other about > temple marriage. Then they die without being sealed to a companion, > realizing too late that they should have given the matter greater > attention. They might have been exalted, but for their diligence in > seeking an eternal companion. I suspect it would be these individuals > who would become the ministering angels in the lower Celestial rhelms. > (But would there be that many?) Even so, all this would be my personal > speculation. > > All the best, > /Sandy/ > > -- > The Rabinowitz Family, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Spring Hill, Tennessee Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] HELP
http://www.topica.com/lists/zion/read/ Gary Ron Scott wrote: > > > Somehow I misplaced the address for the website, where I can read posts > on > line. Would you please forward the address to me when you get a moment. > > Ron Scott > > > Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] A reading list
I have Barry's book. It is very good, with one exception. I think the Baptism for the Dead section is a little weak. But that isn't through any fault of his. The reality is, there isn't much ancient information whatsoever on baptisms for the dead. His stuff on an anthropomorphic God is excellent, but I would have included a little bit more information from his sources in that area. Gary George Cobabe wrote: > > Ah - a topic that will not engender evil emotions. > > I just finished reading "By the Hand of Mormon" by Terryl Givens. A > excellant book regarding the history and perspectives of the Book of > Mormon > from historical as well as non-mormon perspective. Chapter Eight on > "Dialogic Revelation" and the Book of Mormon's application of the > principles > was truly eye-opening. > > I have just started "Restoring the Ancient Church, Joseph Smith and > Early > Christianity" By Barry Bickmore. It looks at the early Christian > Church > and describes how it was corrupted and then how the early doctrines > compare > so favorably with our current doctrines. It looks very good. > > George > > > - Original Message - > From: "Cousin Bill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "ZION" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 8:01 AM > Subject: [ZION] A reading list > > > > I'm sorry to rain on everyone's parade. I see that many people > > enjoy discussing the gospel. I do not qualify to join such > > discussions. I just don't have the knowledge everyone else has. > > So I decided to start a new thread. In the past, my efforts have > > had mixed results. At times I have started threads that have > > lasted weeks. Other times my post seems to be the only one, so I > > suppose it could not even be called a thread. We shall see how > > this one works out. Please forgive the lightheartedness. > > > > I was just wondering what everyone is reading these days. I'm > > currently working my way through Red Rabbit by Tom Clancy. I had > > decided to read the Iliad and the Odyssey, but I didn't get too > > far before I realized that I will need to get the Cliff Notes to > > go with that. My little brain just doesn't function that well. > > Luckily I will be heading for Savannah next month so I plan to > > pick it up then. I'm thinking of reading Contact by Carl Sagan > > next. I really enjoyed the movie, and I can't imagine anyone > > having seen that movie without being convinced that there is life > > out there beyond the confines of the earth. > > > > So does anyone care to share what they are reading these days? > > Or their thoughts on life in outer space? I'm kind of angry at > > myself. Astute readers will notice that I have a new e-mail > > address. I also have a new computer. I downloaded the SETI > > program, but when I tried to add on to my previous SETI total > > they asked for my password. I have no idea, and since they only > > send the password to the old address (which has since been > > cancelled), I'm out of luck. I had over 400 completed work > > units, and had to start over. I'm at about 90 now. One good > > thing, my new computer whips through those work units between two > > and three times as fast as my old computer. > > > > Anyway, I ask again, what are you guys reading? > > > > Cousin Bill > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > "Our country, right or wrong. When > > right, to be kept right. When wrong, > > to be put right." -- Carl Schurz > > > > > > > // > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > > > / > > > > > > > > > Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Getting Married Older [was Official Doctrine #2]
Val, What age range are you looking for in a guy? Maybe a few of us could look for potential candidates in our areas for you. Gary Valerie Nielsen Williams wrote: > > > On Fri, 7 Nov 2003 02:36:29 + Jim Cobabe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > writes: > > > > John W. Redelfs wrote: > > --- > > Would that all the single men in the Church were as devoted to > > keeping the commandment to marry as seriously as you did and do. > > --- > > > > Many of us take it seriously too. As a single man I am working on > > addressing this concern as quickly as sanity and comfort can afford. > > I have discovered that it is not an easy thing for an older man. > > It's even harder for an older (middle-aged) widow. I wouldn't mind > finding a time-only companion. But it seems that the widowers in the > church want to be sealed to another woman, instead of finding one who is > already sealed. At my bishop's behest I tried LDSPlanet for a couple of > months. Profiles of widowers, majority, want to be sealed again to wife > #2. I can't compete with that, so I don't even try. At this point, I'm > content to live alone. > > val > > > > > / > > / > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > / > > > > > > > > > > > .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:. > «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤ > > > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] A reading list
I'm currently reading this note you sent. ;-) I'm also involved in "how to write science fiction and fantasy" by our own Orson Scott Card; and "The Book of J" edited by Harold Bloom. Gary Cousin Bill wrote: > > I'm sorry to rain on everyone's parade. I see that many people > enjoy discussing the gospel. I do not qualify to join such > discussions. I just don't have the knowledge everyone else has. > So I decided to start a new thread. In the past, my efforts have > had mixed results. At times I have started threads that have > lasted weeks. Other times my post seems to be the only one, so I > suppose it could not even be called a thread. We shall see how > this one works out. Please forgive the lightheartedness. > > I was just wondering what everyone is reading these days. I'm > currently working my way through Red Rabbit by Tom Clancy. I had > decided to read the Iliad and the Odyssey, but I didn't get too > far before I realized that I will need to get the Cliff Notes to > go with that. My little brain just doesn't function that well. > Luckily I will be heading for Savannah next month so I plan to > pick it up then. I'm thinking of reading Contact by Carl Sagan > next. I really enjoyed the movie, and I can't imagine anyone > having seen that movie without being convinced that there is life > out there beyond the confines of the earth. > > So does anyone care to share what they are reading these days? > Or their thoughts on life in outer space? I'm kind of angry at > myself. Astute readers will notice that I have a new e-mail > address. I also have a new computer. I downloaded the SETI > program, but when I tried to add on to my previous SETI total > they asked for my password. I have no idea, and since they only > send the password to the old address (which has since been > cancelled), I'm out of luck. I had over 400 completed work > units, and had to start over. I'm at about 90 now. One good > thing, my new computer whips through those work units between two > and three times as fast as my old computer. > > Anyway, I ask again, what are you guys reading? > > Cousin Bill > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > "Our country, right or wrong. When > right, to be kept right. When wrong, > to be put right." -- Carl Schurz > > Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] blood red moon
Well, one way to interpret D&C 87 as the slaves that rise up against their masters who are disciplined in war, to mean the fall of Socialism; with the remnant of the slaves rising up against the Gentile nations being the Muslim terrorism attacks. When that occurs, the D&C says there will begin to be many signs in the heavens and natural destructions. So, if that interpretation is correct, we may see some interesting times ahead. Oh, stand in holy places, eh? Gary Smith Heidi Page wrote: > > Hello all... > > I read a bit on cnn.com this morning about the upcoming lunar eclipse > this weekend and how the moon is supposed to turn blood red. To quote > the article: "Saturday's lunar eclipse will be followed by the Leonid > meteor shower, a total solar eclipse over the southern hemisphere -- and > a chance for more auroras if the sun stays active. Another eruption > Tuesday on the sun ranked among the most intense solar events ever > recorded. But the explosion was aimed away from Earth, meaning it would > have little impact here. " > > What think ye? Do you think this *means* anything? > > Just curious... > Heidi the fair Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Repentance from adultery
The definition given of a Son of Perdition is a person who has received a high level of understanding of the gospel, then not only fully denies it, but seeks to commit evil. Cain is the perfect example. He held the priesthood, spoke with God, then turned completely against God. It isn't a matter of someone refusing to repent of some sins. It is a matter of becoming God's total enemy, which most people in the world will never do. Even most murderers and adulterers keep some commandments and believe in God. They don't totally reject the light and truth, since they have not received a fulness of that light and truth, so they could never become a son of perdition. I would venture that of the 11+ million members in the Church today, less than 25,000 are spiritual and enlightened enough to ever risk being a son of perdition. And there are no non-members that could ever qualify. In fact, the only person we know of a surety is a son of perdition is Cain. Even Judas Iscariot probably did not qualify, as he had not received the Gift of the Holy Ghost and a true conversion. There will be, as I understand it, a major gathering of sons of perdition at the end of the Millennium, as Satan gathers his people out from those with a full witness of Christ. But in all reality, most of those choosing to be sons of perdition, chose to do so prior to this world. K'aya K'ama Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/ Freedom Forever Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 17:42:24 -0600 From: Stacy Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [ZION] Repentance from adultery (was: RE: Is God's Love Unconditional?) I don't believe the sons of perdition will be few in number. I believe we have sufficient scriptures to prove otherwise, notwithstanding many will go telestial. The people that go telestial will still have to repent in order for that to be done. I've seen some people who would never accept Jesus under any circumstances. These people wish to live in their sins. Aren't I right in suggesting that anyone who wishes to live through eternity with their sins will go to perdition? Stacy. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Welcom Tom Valleta
Tom, Welcome back to Zion. How was your mission? What does the Church have you doing now? K'aya K'ama Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/ Freedom Forever // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Catholics and Mormons Unite
I would rephrase the "only true church" to the "only church with a fulness of the gospel." At least, that's what the definition seems to me. After all, any church with some truth could be defined as a "true church." Where other churches have truths, we seek to share in those truths with them. When Catholic Charities helps out a nation, we often combine resources with them, because it reduces overhead expenses, and the outcome of goodness is the same. As we help other churches (helping them build buildings, etc), we are encouraging religious belief in God, which is one step further toward people accepting the fulness of the gospel. Gary Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 16:14:18 -0900 From: "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [ZION] Catholics & Mormons unite Stacy Smith wrote: >I understand all of the above, however, I go back to Joseph Smith in which >he was commanded "to join none of them." Helping them on some project may >appear to be wonderful, but doesn't it suggest to some who have gotten >mixed signals that we no longer hold the doctrine of the restoration of >the gospel true? My friend got such a mixed message while studying with >the missionaries. This is a concern that I have, probably a futile concern. How can we teach 1) that all the other churches contain some truth, and 2) that we are the only true church? The two statements are not incompatible, but they might easily be confused by those of inadequate education. --JWR -- K'aya K'ama Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/ Freedom Forever // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] The Cruelty of False Doctrine
It is a wise person who can state when he doesn't know. There's nothing wrong with pondering and some speculating, as long as it doesn't become a personal doctrine that we insist on pushing onto others. I don't know the answers to any of those questions, either. I do have some personal ideas on some of them, but am open on all of them. And that is what allows us to grow. Can you imagine how little faith it would require if ALL the answers were provided by God? We couldn't stretch ourselves, test ourselves, or learn of our own accord. President Joseph F Smith lost a little daughter around 1860. He spent the next 40 years pondering what happened in the Spirit World. He was obsessed with the issue, writing on it frequently, speaking on it frequently, and always speculating. It wasn't until two weeks before his death that it was revealed to him in what we now call D&C 138. He wouldn't have been the person he was without such challenges to cause him to stretch and ponder. So it is with the rest of us. K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. JWR: Answered: I don't know. However, I have noticed something interesting on these email discussion lists: For everything I don't know, there is someone who thinks he does. John W. Redelfs // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Definitions
I think that just as there are true doctrines and the twisted apostate faux copies made by Satan, there are true passions and then there are faux passions created by Satan. Therefore, I believe God is capable of love, but not lust. God is capable of a Godly hatred of wickedness, but not an evil hatred of all. God is capable of desire, but does not fly into a rage of jealousy. Lust in a "perfected state" is still lust. Love in its perfected state is called charity. K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. Steven Montgomery wrote: Joseph Smith taught (Or at least someone authorized by Joseph Smith) in the "Lectures On Faith," that not only was God a God of passions but was a being in whom, ". . . all fulness and perfection dwell." Furthermore, in order to exercise complete faith in God unto Salvation, man must have a correct understanding of God's "character, perfections, and attributes. I believe Joseph Smith. I believe that God experiences *all* the passions that we humans do, including hate, jealousy, envy, and yes--even lust--but only in their perfected state. Is God a jealous God? Yes, but his jealousy is that of a perfected state. Is God a envious God? Yes, but his envy is that of a perfected state. In other words, I don't believe there is a passion or emotion, that we humans usually think of as negative ones, that God doesn't possess. God however, experiences hate and envy in a far different manner than us mortals do. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] A Question for George
And it goes beyond that, as well. Just doing what is right is not enough to entitle us to eternal life. We must do what is right, with the right intent. Christ, Paul and other prophets condemned the Jews and others for good actions without the right intentions behind the actions. We can't just say, "Lord, Lord" and do many good works. We must have the right intentions, as described in Moroni 7. In this manner, works must follow faith, the two together; otherwise they are dead by themselves. K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. Ron: Well, this could turn into an endless debate. So I'll try for some shortcuts. Short of taking a crash course in Mormon doctrine, there are many non-doctrinal ways one can *learn* what is right. For instance, Jimmy Carter learned correct *do good* principles in a Baptist Church in Plains. Richard Nixon was taught (apparently he didn't learn very well) similar principles in a Quaker meetinghouse and so on and so forth. Presumably they both believed similar basic principles, even though each of them applied what they'd learne very differently. To wit: DOING counts more than the learning, which I will modify this way: good learning often leads to good doing, but you never can be too sure. Ron // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Welcome back Ron Scott
Actually, I wasn't referring to you as shrill. Maybe a shill, but definitely not shrill. ;-) I, on the other hand, have occasionally been known to be shrill. But I'm either getting better at it, or everyone's getting used to it, because they don't seem to complain as much. Even Stephen Beecroft can put up with me nowadays. As for the arrogant, smug, and self-righteous; you forgot to add pseudo-intellectual. All the wonderful qualities that one tends to find on Internet email lists I retired one year ago from the USAF, and have moved to the suburbia of Indianapolis. It's where my wife is originally from. A lot of liberals in the city, but I don't hang out there too much, so they don't have much chance to contaminate me. ;-) I'm an office manager for a company that makes components for race cars. So, when you see those Indy or Nascar cars zoom by your television screen, chances are my company has made some of that stuff. K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. Ron wrote: Thanks for the welcome and kind words...although just what the heck were you wondering about me the other day? Shrill? Me shrill? Someone on this list is calling me, shrill? Is the kettle black too? Remind me of the qualities of a "temple" voice? I assume the qualities include kindness, warmth and helpfulness. I also assume they don't include arrogance, smugness and self-righteousness. Have I got it right? Where are you these days, Brother Smith? Ron Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Official Doctrine #1
The poorest widows in the USA that I've known are still much more comfortable than the average middle class person in Calcutta! Mother Theresa came from a decent, middle class family, but forsake it all to work with the poor. She risked all manner of diseases (Typhoid, Tetanus, Malaria, Diphtheria, Yellow Fever, etc) as she went amongst the poorest in the city to aid them. You cannot imagine what true poverty is like, until you've gone to a truly poor country and spent time with the peoples there. The widow who gives her mite, is a righteous person, but she still hasn't given all of her time, talents, and energy to serve. And remember it was Christ who said that when we have done it unto one of the least of these, we've done it unto him. K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. JWR: Was Mother Theresa more righteous or just more famous for her righteousness than say the widow in your ward that give the widows mite to the Fast Offering? --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Whom God hateth
I would have to ask: Is this "unconditional hate"? ;-) Actually, that is a good point to ask. Stephen is reading these verses literally, but I happen to know Stephen doesn't read all the scriptures literally (from previous discussions). Things to consider when reading these verses in light of all the scriptures: What is the reading from the original Hebrew on these? Have ancient Christians or Jews or Nephites spoken on how God feels about sinners that differ from these verses (I would have to say, yes. Look at the reasons the Lord sends Ammon and his brethren to the Lamanites. And if Ammon can love the Lamanites so intensely as to not be able to stand thinking about a nation of people in sin, then why should God be any different?)? If God hates sinners so much, then why does he show so much patience and mercy towards them, rather than just quickly wipe them off the earth? Why didn't he kill Laman and Lemuel early on, allowing the Nephites to grow easier in righteousness? Why does God give sinners so many "second chances" if he hates them? Just questions to ask in trying to answer the "literal" disparity that occurs when we read the scriptures too literally. K'aya K'ama Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/ Freedom Forever Stephen quotes: (Helaman 15:4) But behold my brethren, THE LAMANITES HATH HE [GOD] HATED because their deeds have been evil continually, and this because of the iniquity of the tradition of their fathers. (Malachi 1:2-3, cited in Romans 9:13) "I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacobs brother? saith the LORD: YET I LOVED JACOB, AND I HATED ESAU, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] The Cruelty of False Doctrine
Your list is doctrinal. But once one begins scratching the surface of these ideas, we leave the area of doctrine and enter into speculation. For example, 1. There is a God with a body, but was he a Savior on his own planet? 2. Is Christ the savior of just this world, all the universe? What? 3. Was Joseph Smith infallible? If not, which of his statements are not prophetic? 4. What parts of the Bible have not been translated correctly? 5. Pres Hinckley is prophet, but does he know everything? Or just what God has revealed to him, sufficient to provide eternal life to mankind? 6. How much faith is required to be saved? And is that salvation in the Celestial Kingdom, or a lower kingdom that we are speaking about? K'aya K'ama Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/ Freedom Forever JWR's list of doctrines:1) There is a God. 2) Jesus Christ is his Son. 3) Joseph Smith is a true prophet. 4) The Book of Mormon is the Word of God. 5) The Bible is the Word of God insofar as it is translated correctly. 6) Jesus Christ is the Redeemer of the World. 7) Gordon B. Hinckley is a true prophet just as Joseph Smith or Moses were. 8) A man cannot be saved without faith in Christ, repentance and baptism. 9) There are three kingdoms of glory. 10) There is a universal resurrection. 11) The Law of Tithing is God's Law. 12) The Law of Chastity is God's Law. and so forth and so on. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Welcome back Ron Scott
Great to hear from you again, Ron! I was wondering about you the other day. I'm very glad JWR invited you back. I think the list has moderated somewhat over the years, and is more open to a variety of voices. Many of us are learning to not speak in such shrill tones, but in our temple voices here online. ;-) K'aya K'ama Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/ Freedom Forever // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Unconditional Love
I think we are dealing with semantics here. God's love is infinite, and he loves all his children, which is one definition of "unconditional love." God does not accept sin or wickedness, so another definition would suggest that God loves such people less, making "unconditional love" an oxymoron. In the current General Conference addresses, there is a talk by one of the Twelve (don't have it available here) where he talks on God the Father. Although I don't know if he uses the term "unconditional love" , he does make clear that God loves all people, including sinners. In the Book of Moses, God's infinite love is clearly shown as he weeps before Enoch, prior to destroying the world by flood. Enoch asks him why He, the creator of all the universe, would be bothered by such an insignificant event in the history of eternity. God answers that these are the creations of his hands, and He knows each one of them. Truly, His love extends to the wicked, otherwise he would feel nothing for their destruction. God, being a god of Law and Order, must require obedience to receive all His blessings. Yet, Christ said that God loves his children enough to let the rain fall on both the righteous and the wicked. "For God so loved the world..." does not denote a righteous place, otherwise it would have said, "For God so loved Zion..." It doesn't bother me that a person use the term "unconditional love" to describe God's love for all his children. Why? Because in mortal terms, it does seem unconditional on many levels. What is important is that we don't twist that love as did Nehor and as do many today, to excuse their sinful natures. K'aya K'ama Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/ Freedom Forever The story line is: Ron Scott wrote: >There is a current piece in Ensign that confuses "unconditional love" and >"blessing." Actually, I think the current piece confuses grace/faith/works. >God's love is unconditional, according to Hinckley (many sources). But, the >blessing/rewards are very conditional up faithfulness. JWR: I would love to read one or two of these "many sources" you speak of. Stephen B: Then I suggest the scriptures also "mix up" these two concepts, because divine blessings are consistently represented as an indication of God's love, while divine cursings or divine deafness evidences God's disinclination toward or hatred of a people. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Cognitive Dissonance
First off, we have to be careful not to assume, or read things into scripture. The scriptures you cite do not say that All churches are evil and corrupt. It states that there are some that are corrupt and seek to sway people away from goodness and Christ. Do all churches have false creeds and ideas? Yes. I'd even venture to state that we may have a few among the Mormons, if not on an official basis, then as a generally accepted basis. That doesn't mean the Church is fallen. It just means we do not have all truth yet. We have a fulness of truth, meaning we have enough to exalt us. There are many good churches out there, and we need to recognize truth and light wherever it is found. We also need to fight evil and wrong creeds, wherever they are found. We have this tendency to think that in the book of Mormon there was only the Church of Christ and the Church of the Devil. I submit that as the family grew into a nation, there may have been many churches, and those acceptable to Christ. The religion was not really centralized until Alma 2nd, with the common aspect of worshiping in the wilderness (a la Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) as a traditional past-time of the Nephites before this (and probably afterward, as well). Nephi would not have condemned different branches of the Church, per se. He would have condemned different branches that taught extremely wrong and evil creeds, leading people away from Christ. So, where modern religion leads people to Christ, it ought to be applauded. And where it leads them swiftly to hell, we should condemn it. You tend to view it from a Celestial Kingdom/Hell perspective, while others see things from a multiple heaven perspective, understanding that Terrestrial beings are honorable, as are their belief systems (Law of Moses, Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, etc). K'aya K'ama Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/ Freedom Forever // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Catholics and Mormons unite
First off, this comes close to attacking the prophets and is a charter violation, so I'd be more careful in what you say, Paul. Second, we condemn false teachings and creeds, not peoples and religions. Although the Catholic Church is fallen from the fullness of the truth, there still is truth there. If we work with them in good things, we will catch many more flies with honey than with vinegar. There is a Church of the Lamb and a Church of the Devil. However, there is nothing that signifies the Catholic Church as the Church of the Devil. In fact, D&C 76 would establish those followers of Catholicism as Terrestrial, or "honorable men of the world." Both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young taught that we need to find truth wherever it is found and make it ours. Brigham said that even if it were found in hell, we should go there and claim it as our own. Christ taught us to be charitable, to strengthen those who struggle with the truth. And doesn't that apply to all people? Or was Christ selective in who would/could be saved? Our Church shows a Christ-like kindness and love towards others. This opens doors for us that make much greater opportunities to teach the gospel and effect the establishment of Zion. Does not the D&C and New Testament both tell us to make friends with Mammon, so that we are not destroyed? Clearly there is wisdom in what the Church is doing. K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 10:08:33 -0600 From: Paul Osborne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Catholics & Mormons unite The Catholics are using the Mormon building for their own release time seminary per Church News article. "I'm sure the relationship between the LDS and Catholic church will grow and strengthen because of things like this. I'm hoping that it will put us on a road of mutual respect and appreciation that will last for a long time until the future." What is going on here? What about the two churches spoken of in the Book of Mormon, i.e. the Church of the Lamb and the Church of the Devil? I guess no one believes it anymore. The Church sure has changed. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
