[9fans] rc and whitespaces

2014-11-26 Thread Steve Simon
would expect or is the text parsing by `{ .. } different to rc's normal one - dare I say broken. Is there a way round this? Thanks, -Steve

Re: [9fans] running plan9 : an ideal setup?

2014-11-19 Thread Steve Simon
- Plan9: don't enable periodic snapshots in Fossil to avoid it getting corrupt This is no longer true, this long standing bug was fixed about a year ago. Can you remember where you saw the documentation saying snapshots where still broken? -Steve

Re: [9fans] using plan9 as the only system!

2014-11-19 Thread Steve Simon
that is a pleasure to use. I also do occasional Plan9 development and maintain a port of some plan9 tools which allow me to do the equivilent of cpu(1) to a windows box. Wish I had more time for plan9 development. -Steve

Re: [9fans] running plan9 : an ideal setup?

2014-11-19 Thread Steve Simon
have been running fossil with snapshots for a year or so now and not had a single crash. I only use my Pi as a terminal so its flash is pretty much readonly. -Steve

Re: [9fans] running plan9 : an ideal setup?

2014-11-18 Thread Steve Simon
everywhere you need to write things, like /sys/log and /adm/keys This would give you the speed of flash but the reliability of a magnetic disk or flash drive. You could even use multiple external flash drives with fs(3). Just some random ideas. -Steve

[9fans] interesting sbc

2014-10-29 Thread Steve Simon
Thought this might be of interest to 9fans, I would do the port myself if I had the skils and experience but i don't believe I have. http://www.bananapi.org/p/product.html -Steve

Re: [9fans] Setting up Mail in Acme on the Raspberry Pi.

2014-10-29 Thread Steve Simon
worked you way through this: http://www.plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/mail_configuration/index.html particularly with reference to the section on SMTP TLS auth -Steve

Re: [9fans] Setting up Mail in Acme on the Raspberry Pi.

2014-10-22 Thread Steve Simon
cpu: can't dial: plan9.lanl.gov: The operation completed successfully. You using cinap's cpud for windows? calendar: can't open /usr/glenda/lib/calendar: '/usr/glenda/lib/calendar' does not exist You just need to create it. touch /usr/glenda/lib/calendar see calendar(1) -Steve

Re: [9fans] Setting up Mail in Acme on the Raspberry Pi.

2014-10-21 Thread Steve Simon
. you probably won't get a radio as the PI doesn't have an audio driver by default yet and you would need to install my radio tuner package first anyway. -Steve#!/bin/rc rfork e scr=(`{cat /dev/draw/new [2]/dev/null || status=''}) height=$scr(12) y1=`{echo 'int(' $height '*' 0.12 ')' | hoc} y2

Re: [9fans] Setting up Mail in Acme on the Raspberry Pi.

2014-10-20 Thread Steve Simon
error? I have attached my startup script for interest, it lives in my $home/bin/rc/startup (other script names are available). -Steve#!/bin/rc rfork e scr=(`{cat /dev/draw/new [2]/dev/null || status=''}) height=$scr(12) y1=`{echo 'int(' $height '*' 0.12 ')' | hoc} y2=`{echo 'int(' $height '*' 0.3

Re: [9fans] Setting up Mail in Acme on the Raspberry Pi.

2014-10-14 Thread Steve Simon
you need that plan9 is missing (honest question)? -Steve

Re: [9fans] Setting up Mail in Acme on the Raspberry Pi.

2014-10-14 Thread Steve Simon
a problem for me. Now a modern web browser, either native or running in an emulated environment would be really good... Actually I have been toying with running another raspberry Pi with Linux on it as a Chrome server. -Steve

Re: [9fans] Setting up Mail in Acme on the Raspberry Pi.

2014-10-12 Thread Steve Simon
has nupas which reworks much to keep a file per message on disk, though I'am not sure how thsi works with gmail (imap4 I assume). -Steve

[9fans] multicast

2014-10-06 Thread Steve Simon
it should not fail. I'am very confused. -Steve

Re: [9fans] [TV14RD] teathing problems

2014-10-06 Thread Steve Simon
today (6th october, day 20 of the logs) there have been no line resets and the rain has poured down all day. The problems seem to occur when the weather is warm, dry and sunny. What should I try next? Thanks, -Steve

Re: [9fans] Clean desktop on Raspberry Pi using Plan 9.

2014-10-06 Thread Steve Simon
expect to find a script called startup, probably in $home/bin/rc/startup This is what opens the initial windows on your terminal, if you edit it you can put different windows on the startup screen as you wish. -Steve

Re: [9fans] Annyoing modified by boyd

2014-09-18 Thread Steve Simon
gave me many a guilty chuckle over the years. He lives on in plan9 in some dusty corners (mainly in fortunes). [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trog -Steve

[9fans] ipv6 /lib/ndb/local example?

2014-09-18 Thread Steve Simon
Hi, My new ISP supports ipv6, so I thought I would have a go. I know next to nothing about ipv6 and it would be great to have a /lib/ndb/local to study. anyone got one they would be willing to share. Thanks, -Steve

Re: [9fans] Annyoing modified by boyd

2014-09-17 Thread Steve Simon
years ago now, but I am happy to dig if you can provide a bit more info. -Steve

[9fans] JIT (mostly off topic)

2014-09-09 Thread Steve Simon
a compressed video decoder. Anyone done such a thing this millenium? Does the x86 data execution prevention mean you just cannot do this - my targets are desktop OSs other than plan9 (sadly). -Steve

[9fans] silly question

2014-09-02 Thread Steve Simon
I want to process some dated logfiles in awk. gawk has date, strftime and mktime but Brian's does not. plan9 has date(1) but there is no tm2sec(1), unless it is called somthing I didn't expect. Anyone found somting I could not in the plan9 distribution? -Steve

Re: [9fans] silly question

2014-09-02 Thread Steve Simon
I'd be happy to know the results of attempting a gawk port via APE. :-) Not sure Al, Peter, or Brian would forgive me :-) Though if memory serves it has been done already. -Steve

Re: [9fans] silly question

2014-09-02 Thread Steve Simon
not by much. This is why I was asking if there was an external app called somthing like tm2sec which calls its eponomymous library function. it seems there isn't one and its the work of 30secs to write one, no problem, I just thought there was one but I had forgotten its name... -Steve

Re: [9fans] silly question

2014-09-02 Thread Steve Simon
seconds(1) Marvelous, on two levels: that it exists and I can use it. that it diodn't imagine it Thanks Kurt. -Steve

Re: [9fans] silly question

2014-09-02 Thread Steve Simon
to make a hammertime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_Can't_Touch_This) you can subtract 1990 from parsed date instead. Oh no. Thats going to be stuck in my head for hours now ☺ -Steve

Re: [9fans] calm SFX power supply?

2014-08-28 Thread Steve Simon
) is a 3 wire (power and speed sense) rather than 4 wire (power, sense and speed control), however it pretty quiet anyway. -Steve

Re: [9fans] Many bugs in eqn(1)

2014-08-14 Thread Steve Simon
I have had a look, found a copy of the doc from 1996 and failed to reproduce the problem. I withdraw the accusation - tbl you are without bugs. Sorry for the noise. BTW: for troff related stuff I should mention http://www.troff.org is a good resource. -Steve

Re: [9fans] Many bugs in eqn(1)

2014-08-13 Thread Steve Simon
but I find it much easier to generate a simple document in troff than with MS Word, its a metter of what you are used to. I'am sure latex is capable of genatiing better documents, but i have never had the need to learn it so I don't use that. Troff is good enough for what I need. -Steve

Re: [9fans] Many bugs in eqn(1)

2014-08-13 Thread Steve Simon
the problem... -Steve

Re: [9fans] Many bugs in eqn(1)

2014-08-12 Thread Steve Simon
may become obvious... -Steve

Re: [9fans] Many bugs in eqn(1)

2014-08-12 Thread Steve Simon
/n/sources/plan9/sys/src/cmd/eqn if not then you should be able to use: http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sources/plan9/sys/src/cmd/eqn and a little hacking to trim headers and taililers. -Steve

[9fans] ssh and interrupts

2014-07-31 Thread Steve Simon
. Is there any way to do this on plan9 or is it just not possible? Thanks -Steve

Re: [9fans] kbdputc() in devcons.c in 9front?

2014-07-17 Thread Steve Simon
not tried this. I also have a green router/wifi basestation/ADSL modem which draws 5 watts. -Steve

Re: [9fans] Building a Raspberry Pi image / Keyboard support

2014-07-05 Thread Steve Simon
in 2 or 3 seconds and consumes 2 watts. I use a standard dell keyboard and LCD display at 1920x1600. I made a special effort to find some IBM/Lenovo 3 button optical mice which work as you would expect. its the perfect plan9 terminal IMHO. -Steve

Re: [9fans] 2014 hardware overview

2014-06-29 Thread Steve Simon
wonderfully well booting in the time it takes me to move from the power switch on the wall to the keyboard. At work I have a single cpu/auth/terminal server which is a dull HP desktop box but it serves well enough. sheeva plugs also work well though I don't have one. -Steve

Re: [9fans] (no subject)

2014-06-22 Thread Steve Simon
the problem was more extensive, berhaps its a non-problem with a couple of tiny fixes. Thanks, -Steve

[9fans] (no subject)

2014-06-21 Thread Steve Simon
(). In several places these are passed string constants. the obvious alternatives would be to have these two functions return malloc'ed memory (and remeber to free it later), or to replace the string constant with an initialised variable. What has anyone else done? have I missed somthing? -Steve

Re: [9fans] duppage

2014-06-10 Thread Steve Simon
, it would be interesting to measure and see how much of a win it is. idle Tuesday thoughts. -Steve

Re: [9fans] Question about fossil

2014-06-08 Thread Steve Simon
for things like downloaded ISO files where they can be easily regenerated. -Steve

Re: [9fans] Question about fossil

2014-06-07 Thread Steve Simon
are merged and take up only one file's worth of space (de-duplication is done on the files contents not on its name. also all data is compressed so it takes less space. -Steve

Re: [9fans] installs which hang

2014-06-07 Thread Steve Simon
. Having said this my memory is a little hazy too... -Steve

[9fans] Glenda's world weary cousin

2014-06-06 Thread Steve Simon
Glenda's world weary cousin https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BpZjUjXIYAIJiua.jpg -Steve

[9fans] nstats - p9p stats port

2014-06-03 Thread Steve Simon
to windows, or install openssh on your windows boxen. manpage and OSX support to follow, though macs are less important for me at the moment. http://plan9.bell-labs.com/contrib/steve/nstats.tbz see Readme and try.rc for a little documentation. -Steve

Re: [9fans] nstats - p9p stats port

2014-06-03 Thread Steve Simon
03 июня 2014 г., в 18:09, Steve Simon st...@quintile.net написал(а): I have finally got around to porting p9p's stats(1), I renamed it nstats(1) for now. http://plan9.bell-labs.com/contrib/steve/nstats.tbz /sources between .com and /contrib. Indeed, my bad. http://plan9.bell-labs.com

Re: [9fans] sam for Windows?

2014-06-02 Thread Steve Simon
The short answer is no. there is the pf9 package which would probably be the best starting point. https://bitbucket.org/knieriem/pf9 I have a similar but less complete toolkit myself, and I still run 32 bit plan9 tools on windows. -Steve

Re: [9fans] Mistake in Plan9 Mercual port?

2014-05-31 Thread Steve Simon
FWIW I use ssh2 daily to connect to linux machines, command line and using sftpfs to get file access. one problem with ssh2 is the fact that it doesn't do keyboard interactive at all One more - sshnet is not yet ported to ssh2, though this is on my list of things to do. -Steve

Re: [9fans] Plan 9 image for Google Compute Engine?

2014-05-28 Thread Steve Simon
is anyone working on this or has done a deep dive? it looks doable. No but it looks intriguing. -Steve

Re: [9fans] Too many checkpages() diagnostics ...

2014-05-26 Thread Steve Simon
I have to ask, when you rebuilt everything, you did rebuild 9pccpuf as well didn't you? i.e. its not the lack of he new nsec() systemcall biteing you is it? -Steve

Re: [9fans] Too many checkpages() diagnostics ...

2014-05-26 Thread Steve Simon
Ok, Just thought I would ask, 9pccpuf is not built by the labs so you would need to rebuild it by hand. worth a try. -Steve

Re: [9fans] [GSOC] auth server: connection refused

2014-05-23 Thread Steve Simon
where added, but its how I saw it. -Steve

Re: [9fans] CMS/MMS (VCS/SCM/DSCM) [was: syscall 53]

2014-05-23 Thread Steve Simon
☺) -Steve

Re: [9fans] RaspberryPi, monitor energy saving

2014-05-16 Thread Steve Simon
, it can be tough to use (for me at least). i am happy to be contradicted on any of this of couse. -Steve On 16 May 2014, at 04:53, Shane Morris edgecombe...@gmail.com wrote: This might be wildly off the mark, but is there something VESA related to do this, VGA monitors, et al? I

Re: [9fans] RaspberryPi, monitor energy saving

2014-05-16 Thread Steve Simon
Mmm, that feels like good and bad news. I know richard did what he could to shut down the screen when its idle for a while so that seems to do the right thing with vga monitors, but I guess I do need CEC. Oh well, time for more digging. -Steve

[9fans] RaspberryPi, monitor energy saving

2014-05-15 Thread Steve Simon
Control) messages over HDMI - Via a Pi GPU entrypoint. Porting libcec looks a little painful especially as I only need to be able to send two messages (turn on and turn off). Anyone know anything about this stuff? is CEC what I need or is there some other (simpler) way? -Steve

Re: [9fans] radio

2014-05-09 Thread Steve Simon
Looks like you forgot to include json.h I put my libjson.tgz and libxml.tgz on sources. -Steve

[9fans] OT: hard realtime, timing diagram GUI.

2014-05-08 Thread Steve Simon
, by an interrupt, or by another event. Anyone know of such a tool? I see masses of tools for drawing digital logic timing diagrams but nothing that seems to give me what I need for realtime code. Thanks, -Steve

[9fans] radio

2014-05-08 Thread Steve Simon
this at work every day, the radio appliance has stalled for now but should restart soon. find the source (including audio encoders and decoders) at /n/sources/contrib/steve/radio.tbz unpack into /sys/src/cmd/audio look at Readme file. enjoy -Steve

Re: [9fans] OT: hard realtime, timing diagram GUI.

2014-05-08 Thread Steve Simon
probably do. Somthing like graphviz for timing diagrammes. -Steve

Re: [9fans] OT: hard realtime, timing diagram GUI.

2014-05-08 Thread Steve Simon
Would https://github.com/drom/wavedrom do? Yep, pretty darn good. maybe a little teeth gritting as its JS but what the heck, its a tool and that is all that really matters. Thanks very much. -Steve

Re: [9fans] radio

2014-05-08 Thread Steve Simon
to it. we will see. -Steve

Re: [9fans] radio

2014-05-08 Thread Steve Simon
Perhaps we should a page on the wiki: Work in progress Stalled projects Work I plan to progress Work I would like somone to do The theroy is it might inspire people and maybe reduce duplication of effort. Just a thought. -Steve

Re: [9fans] teg2 kbd

2014-05-06 Thread Steve Simon
in the archives, though their fix was a little crude (sorry). i worried at the time that adding two entire pages of lookup table seemed silly to support one key with three functions, but memory is cheap enough that 2 x 256 bytes is not outrageous. the 8042 is dead (ish) steve On 6 May 2014, at 17

Re: [9fans] Accessing GPIO pins on the Raspberry Pi

2014-05-02 Thread Steve Simon
http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.os.plan9.general/71902 -Steve

Re: [9fans] Need help setting up MacPro to prepare ps files for printing on HP PCL 3 printer (HP 6480)

2014-04-24 Thread Steve Simon
add another step to generate a pdf if thats easier. - grap plotfile | pic | troff -mm | lp -dstdout | ps2pdf plot.pdf hope this helps. -Steve

Re: [9fans] 'Compose' key and Unicode characters

2014-04-17 Thread Steve Simon
re FP tests, maybe this will do what you want: http://www.netlib.org/paranoia/ -Steve

[9fans] (no subject)

2014-04-15 Thread Steve Simon
, -Steve

[9fans] (no subject)

2014-03-15 Thread Steve Simon
Subject Drawterm windows audio? Anyone added an audio driver to windows or osx drawterms? -Steve

Re: [9fans] sdkw - SATA drive detection broken (was ARM and u-boot)

2014-03-13 Thread Steve Simon
thanks for the info, i have a pi and audio for that is further up my list, but i have just bought a t5325 on ebay so i will have a go at that some time in the future - just one more for the todo list... On 13 Mar 2014, at 05:36, Alex Ivanov gnido...@p0n4ik.tk wrote: Steve Simon steve

[9fans] Plumb menu option not working

2014-03-12 Thread Steve Foster
should happen? If so what is happening when I select plumb from the menu rather than typing it as above? Or am I misunderstanding how this works? Steve.

Re: [9fans] Plumb menu option not working

2014-03-12 Thread Steve Simon
The plumber must be able to see the file in its namespace, it probably cannot in this case.

Re: [9fans] Plumb menu option not working

2014-03-12 Thread Steve Foster
to open are in /usr/glenda/files are here. This should work shouldn't it? It's not the end of the world, but I would like to get it working if possible. I did reply directly to you about the problem with cifs as you requested. Thanks for helping me. Steve.

Re: [9fans] sdkw - SATA drive detection broken (was ARM and u-boot)

2014-03-12 Thread Steve Simon
I suspose I was thinking of audio, video, and SATA drivers rather than a new kernel. Does the SoC include the video device? I suspose what I am really asking is what doesn't work -Steve

Re: [9fans] How to access CD drive?

2014-03-11 Thread Steve Foster
://www.virtualbox.org/manual/ch04.html#sharedfolders [2] https://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Sharing_files_on_OSE On Sun, Mar 9, 2014 at 1:28 AM, Steve Foster steve...@outlook.com wrote: Hi all. I'm new here and to plan 9. I'm the kind of person who doesn't always pick things up straight away, I'm

Re: [9fans] How to access CD drive?

2014-03-11 Thread Steve Foster
it this is possible with plan 9? Do you run plan 9 in a virtual machine or on native hardware? Cheers,Steve.

Re: [9fans] How to access CD drive?

2014-03-11 Thread Steve Foster
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 08:50:45 -0600 From: mirtchov...@gmail.com To: 9fans@9fans.net Subject: Re: [9fans] How to access CD drive? What has surprised me is how much I like working in plan 9, particularly acme. I've even grown to like the way it looks including the colours. the

Re: [9fans] How to access CD drive?

2014-03-11 Thread Steve Simon
working so am still working on that. Which way round, cifs server or client on plan9? The plan9 client was one of mine so if you have problems I will attempt to help. -Steve

Re: [9fans] How to access CD drive?

2014-03-11 Thread Steve Foster
the lines of no replica and mentioned your name. Hope that helps. Cheers, Steve. -Steve

Re: [9fans] How to access CD drive?

2014-03-11 Thread Steve Simon
design choice with hindsight, they should have been selected with an atatch specifier but I wrote this a long time ago. email me off-list if you still have problems. -Steve

Re: [9fans] sdkw - SATA drive detection broken (was ARM and u-boot)

2014-03-11 Thread Steve Simon
I am in no position to help, sorry, however I would love to have access to a plan9 port to the HP t5325. -Steve

[9fans] How to access CD drive?

2014-03-09 Thread Steve Foster
the different suggestions I've found, but nothing seems to work. If I could just get shared folders working that would be great to start with. Thanks,Steve.

Re: [9fans] How to access CD drive?

2014-03-09 Thread Steve Foster
Nah, still not getting it. Thanks for your replies, I do appreciate it, but I think I'll just stick to plan9port and abandon the plan 9 thing. Cheers,Steve. Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2014 11:43:54 +0100 From: beg...@gmail.com To: 9fans@9fans.net Subject: Re: [9fans] How to access CD drive? Oh

Re: [9fans] Accessing Mac OS Extended drives

2014-03-08 Thread Steve Simon
I want my Plan9 host to serve a HFS+ drive. If you want to serve files (rather than a block device) from plan9 to a mac then plan9 has an nfs server and, two cifs servers available. -Steve

[9fans] ndb/cs seems slow (3 secs)

2014-03-07 Thread Steve Simon
? -Steve

Re: [9fans] ndb/cs seems slow (3 secs)

2014-03-07 Thread Steve Simon
Excellent! Good spot. For the archives, ipv6 can also be toggled on/off with echo ipv6 /net/cs Thanks -Steve

[9fans] prototyping device drivers in user space

2014-03-06 Thread Steve Simon
that the code I write will be more directly transferable to a real kernel driver. anyone tried this? is it just silly, the kernel boot time being so low that its not worth it? what do you think? -Steve

Re: [9fans] usb configuration

2014-03-04 Thread Steve Simon
And I hate its scroll button, but I love its three buttons! I hate scroll buttons too. I was very happy when I discovered the dell DY651A mouse: http://www8.hp.com/uk/en/products/oas/product-detail.html?oid=403895#!tab=features also branded as IBM M-U0013-o -Steve

[9fans] IEEE floats

2014-02-27 Thread Steve Simon
Porting stuff from the net (under ape) which wants to use IEEE floats. i.e. ieee754_float32_t, powf(), fabsf() and log10f(). I could map these to plan9 floats and call the double version of the transient functions, but is there a better solution? -Steve

Re: [9fans] Raspberry Pi: won't recognize the USB mouse

2014-02-27 Thread Steve Simon
FWIW I have a Dell keyboard (kb1421), and an IBM/Lenovo mouse (m-u0013-o) and they work fine on my Pi. You are connecting them directly to the PI aren't you? - if you want to use a USB hub it must be a powered one it seems - the Pi can supply very little current on its USB interface. -Steve

[9fans] cannot find sources - have I missed somthing?

2014-02-24 Thread Steve Simon
Trying to do a pull today for the first time in ages and dns doesn't seem to find sources.cs.bell-labs.com any more. with the GPLing of plan9 as the labs plan9 distribution moved to google code or sourceforge, and I missed the message? -Steve

Re: [9fans] 9Front network (driver?) issue

2014-02-09 Thread Steve Simon
i have a norio around somewhere who he? -Steve

Re: [9fans] GSoC '14

2014-01-30 Thread Steve Simon
decoder and there is mp3 encoders and decoders. Mpeg2 video should not be too hard, Mpeg4, H264, etc are nastier but where do you stop. there is a new encoding standard per month these days. -Steve

Re: [9fans] 9Front network (driver?) issue

2013-12-23 Thread Steve Simon
Try the Delete key. Check keyboard(6) and rio(1). also note the ins key does auto filename completeion. Beware: these are all features of rio, if you have no rio, e.g. just a text console, none of this works, not even del (non-labs distributions not withstanding). -Steve

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

2013-12-15 Thread Steve Simon
the linux firefox, or even opera on plan9. I required the use of fgb's x11 port as a display engine, and so it is perhaps not the most minimal solution however it works. -Steve

Re: [9fans] Acme: tab size

2013-12-15 Thread Steve Simon
set the tabstop environment var in your $home/lib/profile e.g. tabstop=8 -Steve

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

2013-12-15 Thread Steve Simon
But this is just one major piece among many. Perhaps for you but not for me, the only thing is really missi s a browser. Very occasuinally I need to edit word documents but this is rare enough that I don't really care. -Steve

[9fans] USB wifi

2013-12-12 Thread Steve Simon
embedded driver which might be a fair option for example code (better than the Linux driver i suspect). https://github.com/sbourdeauducq/rt2571w At least there is this much info. -Steve

[9fans] guruplug display?

2013-12-12 Thread Steve Simon
Dues plan9 support the guruplug display, i.e. can I use one as a terminal. My Raspberry pi is a revelation, but it would be nice to have a bit more grunt and Gb ether. -Steve

[9fans] punching through firewalls...

2013-12-10 Thread Steve Simon
trips necessary to establish the connection. Is there a more elegant, and hopefully more performant way of do this using import -B? failing that any other techniques? sadly ssh -R isn't very useful on plan9 (I think). -Steve

Re: [9fans] music storage

2013-12-09 Thread Steve Simon
. personally I have moved away from compressed audio, not because I distrust compression, but I like browsing through a pile of CDs looking for somthing that matches my mood - for me the user interface is better; perhaps its my age. -Steve

Re: [9fans] music storage

2013-12-09 Thread Steve Simon
bitrate MP3 files. I would not claim that this is always the case, but in my experiments (testing audio quality assurance software which is designed to detect this kind of thing) I was surprised how common it is. -Steve

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