Extracted from a recent message to NetBSD "tech-kern":
> while working on xen3 xenconsole/xenconsoled I ran into a difference
> between the linux way of doing pty attributes and ours.
Why would Xen need to get involved in PTY mangling? I can just see
it: Xen won't run your brand of OS because it
> i don't remember typename and checked my copy of the Bjorne's design
> and evolution of c++ and it's not there either. apparently it evovled
> some more.
Pity it didn't notice that it was already estinct. Biological
evolution at least has some checks and balances, computing evolution
instead s
> Because it is a C++ reserved word.
> It gets used in contexts (templates, in particular)
> where the parser needs extra help deciding that
> a name is going to be used as a type.
I used to like C++. Back in the days when David Bright built an
entire compiler for MS-Dos himself (Zortech C++) and
Forsyth asks:
> can it compile a working pm?
Not without some adjustments to the stuff in
/n/sources/extra/mpm/mpm.bundle, but it does eventually compile it.
The binary runs, but someone else may want to test it:
# ls -l pm
total 1000
-rwxrwxr-x 1 lucio lucio 430935 Mar 7 07:15 pm
Any off
Apologies. I forgot to change the subject line...
> I'm now getting to the 386 syscalls. The following comment in the
> mkfile needs addressing. Suggestions?
++L
> very few programs care if getcallerpc is broken,
> and it is never a bottleneck. if it is really bothering
> you, the c function i posted is certainly correct and
> avoids writing assembly.
I'll keep that in mind, thank you.
I'm now getting to the 386 syscalls. The following comment in the
mk
> i thought gcc typically required BP to be used as a frame pointer,
> whereas 8c simply uses it as another register, which is particularly
> helpful on the grotty x86. (general-purpose registers? pah!)
I don't think that's mandatory, but I am no authority. Using the MSC
compiler, back in 8086 d
> i don't know whether, in the gcc port for plan 9,
> david changed the register saving conventions to
> match plan 9's. i carefully avoided the issue in the
> snippet above, trashing only the return register %eax.
I remember distinctly that he was obliged to recompile the entire APE
library to m
> not quite. 0(%esp) is going to be the saved %eip.
>
> getcallerpc:
> movl 4(%esp), %eax
> movl -4(%eax), %eax
Just a thought: this is in the GCC function call context, which is
different from the P9 compilers'. Does the above still apply?
I know I saw dhog's documentation of the
> not quite. 0(%esp) is going to be the saved %eip.
>
> getcallerpc:
> movl 4(%esp), %eax
> movl -4(%eax), %eax
Thank you, that will almost certainly save me a lot of heartache.
++L
PS: Busy rebuilding the APE libraries right now, you'll be amazed how
much has changed since GCC 3.0
Like all my APE-based efforts, I'm seldom satisfied with the results,
possibly because I don't really try hard enough.
This one is another baby step: from Graphviz 1.10 to Graphviz 1.16,
with the addition of FreeType and GIF.
I've checked dot/FreeType with some unusual fonts (bard, nadiannb) and
> How close is linuxemu to being able to run gcc?
I'm not sure how much it will help, given that one presumably wants to
produce code that runs on Plan 9, not Linux. That said, I should
think that linux-native gcc is probably already supported by linuxemu.
++L
> If GNU was so reliable we wouldn't see the C compiler generate random
> opcodes for architectures we use at my work. And that's *with* the 4x
> toolchain.
I'm not sure if I read you correctly, but all I'm looking for is some
confidence that P9GCC is worth pursuing. I can't use the supplied
regr
> At work, most of the users need a fortran compiler (although almost
> none of them actually use gfortran, they prefer ifort) and some of them
> do parallel computation so they need MPI. If I could have at least
> those two items thanks to P9GCC, maybe I could convince some of them to
> work on th
> Why not just port Version 7 f77 and Version 7 Ratfor?
Sounds like an idea. Where do I find the source code? Mind you, it's
been tens of years since I programmed in Fortran IV, it's going to be
hard for me to do any testing.
++L
> can it compile a working pm?
I'll try.
++L
> On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 10:39 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>
>> But none of this code will "just work" on Plan 9 (especially the
>> Fortran code), so what's the point?
>
> Why do you say that?
>
> ron
Looking at GCC, there's plenty more effort required before the full
>> onsider that this has become a non-issue in the world of
>> Wintel/GNU-Linux by blocking any alternative development paths,
>> including Plan 9's only slight eccentricities.
>
> But these are the stampeding herd of lemmings that discover, at the
> last minute, they aren't supposed to (and can
> But none of this code will "just work" on Plan 9 (especially the
> Fortran code), so what's the point?
That is of course true. Thing is, until one moves along, many of
these "obvious" truths will not be revealed to all interested parties,
nor will alternatives be identified. I really would l
> It will no doubt be useful to us folks doing work for the gov't. They
> DOE has lots of apps written for GCC or Fortran -- while there may be
> other methods of accommodating these applications, having them "just
> work" with GCC (particularly if the GCC fortran could be part of the
> port) woul
Before I apply some serious effort to bring P9GCC in line with the
latest release, I'd like to convince myself that the effort is worth
it. I'm keen to catch two birds with one stone: (a) make sure that
version 3.0 is sufficiently functional and (b) determine how useful it
really is.
Please will
> Is
> there any way that the tag lines would horizontally scroll?
Moving the mouse vertically while holding down button 1 (basically
selecting some text in the tag line) causes horizontal scrolling. A
bit counter-intuitive and inadequate, but better than nothing.
++L
I regularly use $vgasize to select different conditions in
$home/bin/rc/riostart. It struck me that RIO might be amenable to
accept a fresh geometry when started. Although this may be
inappropriate in a new "display", it makes sense in a "window",
specially when targetting a new CPU server:
> That would be fun, but you'd have to find Exec 8, right?
Well, I suppose, if only because the EXEC subset of the assembler
language was so unfamiliar :-)
But the head of computing at the University of Cape Town used to be an
international expert on Exec 8, so he may still have a copy.
Now that
> I've got some time to delve into Fascicle One again and indeed, MMIX
> doesn't have any stack at all. When you need stack, you implement it
> yourself. Anyone knows of other CPU's using this method for stack
> (i.e. no in-built support for stack in memory)? There is stack based
> on registers, th
> Thank you, I'll cherish that. It's not from "The Little Prince", is it?
>
> ++L
Oops. I got half way to making this a private message, then slipped
up :-(
++L
> "Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add,
> but when there is nothing left to take away."
> -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Thank you, I'll cherish that. It's not from "The Little Prince", is it?
++L
> My point is that it's easier to fight the static Apple hardware, with
> it's absent hardware doc, than to fight the dynamic Intel/AMD
> hardware, with its/their also missing doc. At least the obsolete Apple
> gear is a non-moving target, so we stand a chance ... The x86 stuff
> changes on
> There is a lot of PPC-based Apple gear coming on the used equipment
> market. Considering the tight control Apple placed on the hardware,
> porting the MD kernel bits has many fewer moving targets. And the lack
> of hardware documentation sucks equally between the two platforms.
That ought
> Short form: PC hardware is crap.
Caveat emptor. I thought we lived in a world that aimed to please the
consumer...
++L
> It's just amazing the kind of stuff that the gnu guys are wrapping
> around the kernel to try and bail the boat out.
I guess when you're sinking you do whatever it takes. Imagine what
it's like for Microsoft...
++L
PS: MS-DOS didn't have all this trouble, I sometimes wonder if all
this additi
> The big challenge is to get it back to the gcc core so we don't have a
> full port each time.
There's a lot to do. Just to play catch-up is a bit of a mission,
specially if it's not clear how everything fits together.
I still need to (a) get the APE library ported to GCC, which I presume
I can
> Bootstrap complete - make "quickstrap" to redo last build,
> "restage1" through "restage3" to rebuild specific stages,
> or "cleanstrap" to redo the bootstrap from scratch.
> #
I'm hoping at least Ron will have something encouraging to say :-)
It's not that I believe we ought to go this way, b
I have made small progress getting dhog's GCC to compile itself.
Briefly, I needed a "mv" that did not barf on a "-f" option, a copy of
"head" I stole from NetBSD and a fresh version of "gmake".
I used APE, a "mkfile" and the 3.81 sources of gmake to produce
"/386/bin/gnu/make" which is an improve
>>unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> Did Russ just bail??
That would be sad, to put it mildly. Some new arrivals on Plan 9 seem
unshakable, some eventually figure out this is not the right
playground and move along. I'd rather lose a thousand new arrivals
than a single developer.
++L
> On Feb 19, 2008 9:50 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Maybe somebody should set up a script that looks for emails with
>> subjects similar to "new to Plan 9", "Plan 9 newbie", etc. and
>> sends a message with links to the wiki.
>> I'm only half joking.
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>
> first that.
>
> iru
> ld.com should be tossed away. you're supposed to use 9load these days,
> which doesn't have those limitations.
Maybe, but at the time I hoped that ld.com would allow me to overcome
a problem with formatting a Compact Flash card I kept getting wrong (I
have got it right eventually, now I need to
According to the manual, ld.com is a stripped down version of 9load,
intended to fit in 64KB. It doesn't, my "production" version is:
--rwxrwxr-x M 9 sys sys 73464 Feb 18 2007 /386/ld.com
which seems to be the current version. Any suggestions? I don't
really want to rebuild it unneces
> I'll take a look, but I'm afraid it's not going to help. I've already
> tried NetBSD's MBR and Plan 9's MBR (using disk/mbr), and they both
> don't fix the problem.
That makes two of us. I have the same problem with compact flash
devices. If I don't get the geometry exactly right (I did, a cou
> 1. I zeroed the target harddisk before installation like this: "dd -if
> /dev/zero -of /dev/sdC1/data".
You wiped out the MBR on the disk, use DOS's FDISK/MBR (sic) to
restore it, it is the least painful way to fix this type of problem,
in my experience.
++L
> I've just pushed out source changes to support USB OHCI (non-Intel)
> controllers. Charles Forsyth provided the original driver, devohci.c.
> I adapted it to fit our USB framework, and Sape Mullender debugged the
> result.
Well done to all of you, and thank you all very much. Given that
newer
> So if i want port some big linux application to Plan9 i need start new
> project and copy parts of code from original one. From one side it is
> sad, because it's very ugly development model (for example if original
> project will be update, i need update my project too, so there are two
> "targe
> Main trouble in 1 step. Because after that i couldn't post in project
> mail list, "Hey gays, i have create Plan9 port of your application,
> please check it out and put in CVS trunk".
There's no cure for this. The touted portability of the autotools is
restricted to the GNU environment and the
> because the verb is "delete." i don't want to delete the new gateway.
>
> (nonetheless, i did try it and it does not work.)
Oops, blonde moment. Sorry for the noise.
++L
> ip/ipconfig -x /net.alt -g 65.14.39.129 ether /net.alt/ether? delete
> 65.14.39.134 /123
why, if you want a default route of 12.51.113.1, do you specify
65.14.39.129 in the line above?
++L
> I think the point is that people talk a big talk about how great Plan
> 9 is, but then don't do a damn thing with it.
> At least, that's how I read it.
Is that what you believe? And if so, who else believes this?
There are things Plan 9 does exceedingly well, better than any other
OSes in the
> We could store the raw data in binary files and have C programs
> access the data with a standard interface.
You want the primary abstraction (layer 0, let's say) to be very
similar to the existing "pure text". Any mark-up becomes a pointer to
an object in a different layer which conveys addi
>> May be the problem is that people are treating plan 9 as a
>> Van Gogh masterpiece when they should be treating as building
>> material :-)
>
> interestingly, that's the Coraid approach.
Well, embedded is not what is being advocated here, so I think yours
is the answer to a different question.
> May be the problem is that people are treating plan 9 as a
> Van Gogh masterpiece when they should be treating as building
> material :-)
I sincerely hope for your sake that you don't treat your next Van Gogh
masterpiece as building rubble. Or treat Plan 9 as some sort of Linux
surrogate. Why
> why use Plan 9 at all if every mainstream operating system is 'workable'?
> i guess workable is not the point.
I don't get it, why does Plan 9 have to behave like Linux or Windows?
There are tractors, tracks and lamborghinis and no one expects the
first to travel at the speed of sound, the secon
> I'm not saying using whatever browser under linuxemu is a problem.
> I think the problem is not having a good native browser for Plan 9.
Which is due to the complexity of the task it needs to perform with a
high degree of accuracy. Given (a) that there aren't enough Plan 9
developers to constru
> Treating image as character (with unusual width and height) means
> indefinite number of potential characters and if a machine (not human)
> does not able to differentiate between "text characters" and "image
> characters" it renders character sets unusable.
Sure, but the idea is that the actua
> I'm working on all of these, as well as changing it so that each
> column is the length of its largest item rather than the whole
> table's largest item.
You also need to know the overall width of the space in which the
table is presented so you can scale each _column_ accordingly. It's a
> It is better to take that model and use it than pretend it is a piece of
> art
> to hanging on a smelly GNU wall...
There's more to an artwork than the aesthetic pleasure of
contemplating it. With rare exceptions, artistic success builds on
art history, it is unlikely that an unschooled artis
> i realize there are holes around the edges. i don't see how to
> edit or select a layout, just the text within layouts. maybe
> select skips non-text bits.
>
> what's so wrong about this idea?
Nothing, you need to think out of the box. Current selection in
sam/acme is linear, even though it
> If you need me, I'll be adding tables to htmlfmt.
In bocca al lupo!
But you can't add JavaScript to htmlfmt so we're still miles away from
being able to do one's banking in Plan 9.
Personally, I mix VNC and an UBUNTU laptop to get things done, because
I have to. Perhaps the consolation I can
> Why has it been so dificult to port GNULand to Plan 9 but not the other way
> arround?
That is the fundamental question: portability is in the "wrong"
direction. Plan 9 code is clean and platform independent, GNU code
isn't: it is heavily biased in favour of GCC and is positively riddled
with p
>> Given a rendering engine with a powerful and hopefully flexible input
>> language, one may be able to write compilers or interpreters for the
>> more popular brands. Or am I missing the wood for the trees?
>>
>
> i think you're right on the mark. suppose that acme and rio were built
> on "li
> I'm not van gogh, and I want to use the systems now, not after I'm dead.
And you do, to the best of your abilities and to the extent that you
can. But have you ever stopped to analyse the mutually exclusive
aspects of GNU and Plan 9 that you require? How do you propose to
resolve them?
++L
> /n/sources/contrib/fgb/mp3dec.tgz
No one can deny that your contributions have been invaluable.
I do think there's purists and there's pragmatists (sic to both
there's :-) But there's also whingers and armchair critics who haven't
yet figured out that some things are hard to do. Maybe we ought
> A modern web browser is more like a VM. But instead of having some
> sort of sane rendering backend it uses HTML/CSS. Javascript/plugins
> serve as the "userspace" code, if you will. HTTP exports the local
> rendering interface and cpu to remote machines.
I haven't looked at any implementation
> (Again, I have that airy feeling that some won't see the point I made
> and think I am going in a circle.)
Let's put it this way: Vincent Van Gogh didn't allow popular demand to
dictate what and how he should paint. He sold one painting, but today
all his artwork is priceless. Ironically, a lo
> So rio and the compiler suite are the only good things in plan9?
>From purely a user's perspective, that may be a valid opinion. I use
ACME a lot as my editor of preference, but also as my mail user agent.
But the real power of Plan 9 is not going to be exploited by a user to
whom a private na
A pull from sources ends in error, complaining about an invalid log
entry.
It turns out to be a problem in /n/sources/dist/replica/plan9.log,
around line 18157:
mes/4s - 775 sys sys 1197732711 177612
++L
> 8c and 8l support dynamic loading.
Where and how is this documented/achieved? It would be good to
understand the principles involved. Reading the source, no matter how
salubrious, is hard work unless one is already familiar with it.
++L
1. The message "icache: nothing to do - kick dcache" is
irritating, is it just that I'm running a dated version of
venti (I'm not, apparently) or should that message go away?
2. Venti drops into background with a non-empty exit condition.
Makes it hard to run Foss
> % echo dma on > /dev/sdD0/ctl
> % echo dma on > /dev/sdC0/ctl
Because I often have to type it from the console and I find it
terribly irritating to have to repeat that "echo dma on". Weird, but
true. Just one of those things.
++L
I get:
term% disk/kfs -f /dev/sdC0/image
readnvram: couldn't find nvram
initializing minimal user table
where the "readnvram" message seems new to me. I don't use the "image"
partition much, so I may have just ignored this in the past.
Anyone knows what purpose NVRAM ser
Here's me being clever:
% echo dma on | tee /dev/sdC0/ctl > /dev/sdD0/ctl
Now, this can be extended by adding "tee" commands as required, but I
can't think of an elegant way to do this depending on the available
DMA-capable drives. I know that my shell programming tricks
repertoire is ve
>> (Now that we have python we could use hg... although I fail to quite
>> see the issue with plain tarballs)
>
> might depend on what you're doing.
When you're at the end of a 64kbps Internet link, a tarball is
suboptimal.
++L
> I hate to yank the /lib/ndb/local, however,
> as it is useful when the plan 9 guest is running in NAT as opposed to
> BRIDGE mode.
Isn't that the purpose of specifying a a different NDB on the command line?
++L
> i've always wondered if there might be some way of changing venti
> to make it more secure for multi-user access, so accidentally sharing
> a root score
> isn't quite such a terrible thing.
Encryption, specially public key encryption, would do the trick, I
think. But I confess that the details
> Maybe I'm missing something, but I would think it wouldn't be too hard
> to walk the directories in /n/sources/contrib and vac them. You could
> then store the olc vac hashes in a file, and everyday use them to copy
> back tou your venti server only the differences (vac -d). This could
> also b
> only the differences in the arenas would need to be copied. by definition,
> the differences in the arenas are not bigger than the differences in the
> files.
> bonus: you don't have to calculate the differences in the files.
That's true indeed, I didn't think of that. Hmm...
++L
> why not do this at a level below the fs. venti is write once. so
> after a fossil dump, the skinny on the arena offsets and the score
> of the superblock (or whatever fossil calls it) could be relayed
> to the mirror site which could pull (or be pushed) the updated
> arena(s). recover (or what
> http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/Setting_up_a_sources_mirror/
Thank you, Uriel, I'll have a good look.
++L
> that will require BL to give each author in there the ability to
> "push" things to the repository.
Hm, I see your point, r maybe I dont. I was thinking along the lines
of running a "push" daily or so automatically, rather.
++L
Is anyone using ip.pptp successfully to a Microsoft server and would
any such person like to share her success story with me?
I note:
void
usage(void)
{
fprint(2, "usage: ip/pptp [-Pd] [-s user:secret] [-x
pppnetmntpt] [-w window] server\n");
> i suggest using something like rsync (tra, most likely:
> http://swtch.com/tra/) to keep track of contrib updates.
That's a reasonable idea, thank you. I'll look into it.
++L
I started to mirror the entirety of /n/sources/contrib, but the
results are disappointing.
If I'm not mistaken, there is no "replica" facility around "contrib",
could it be arranged?
++L
>> But what does this boot menu mean? I saw it yesterday after making new
>> instalation of Plan9 with fresh install CD.
>> It looks like a menu, but in plan9.ini isn't any [menu] section.
>> Is it some new feature? Any doc?
>>
>> Antonin
>
> plan9.ini(8) drives what 9load does. if a menu is pri
A "proto(2)" file was published here once or twice that covered a
minimum installation for an auth server. I'm about to attempt to
build an auth server that boots from a stand-alone, KFS installation
on compact flash, but right at this very moment I do not have that
particular proto file handy.
I
> In the end, you dont
> port the programs to Plan9 but the other way arround
This deserves a fortune slot, in my opinion.
++L
> No, and it would be hard to do it because you'd need ways to compact
> fragmented memory after a lot of mallocs and frees. And then, you'd
> need a way to fix the pointers after compacting.
Is it all localised, or is the code scattered across multiple kernel
modules? Many years ago I put a lot
>> ether0=igbe, ether1=elnk3 in my plan9.ini.
>
> I think that should be:
>
> ether0=type=igbe
> ether1=type=elnk3
I second that. It's caught me a good few times, including this
particular incident :-(
++L
I note in /sys/src/cmd/auth/secstore/pak.c:
// PAK is an encrypted key exchange protocol designed by Philip
MacKenzie et al.
// It is patented and use outside Plan 9 requires you get a license.
// (All other EKE protocols are patented as well, by Lucent or others.)
I want
I note in /sys/src/cmd/auth/secstore/pak.c:
// PAK is an encrypted key exchange protocol designed by Philip
MacKenzie et al.
// It is patented and use outside Plan 9 requires you get a license.
// (All other EKE protocols are patented as well, by Lucent or others.)
I want
> I'd like to hear what others think regarding this behaviour before
> actually implementing
> it.
I think you ought to just go for it. I know that the present
implementation of tabs is inadequate, but enough of a convention for
everyone to have adjusted to it. A new implementation will either b
It took a lot of digging to discover a very simple key concept:
factotum needs a /lib/ndb entry to determine the authentication server
associated with a particular authentication domain. I have just
rebuilt my Plan 9 network after a serious disk failure and that turned
out to be the missing piece
> We run tcp25 from /bin/service and smtpd is able to received mail via TLS.
>
>>From factotum(4):
>
> The factotum owner can use any key stored by factotum. Any
> key may have one or more owner attributes listing the users
> who can use the key as though they were
> I can't answer all your questions immediately, but as long as smtpd
> can read the certificate it needs for TLS (typically
> /sys/lib/ssl/smtpd-cert.pem), tcp25 can reside in /rc/bin/service.
Hm, /rc/bin/service/tcp25 runs as "none" and where as it can read the
certificate *that's easy), but I
The objective is to configure an authenticating SMTP server, so if
somebody has a formula for that, I'm game.
As I failed to figure it all out for myself (but thanks to those who
contributed to the wiki page on how to do authenticated outgoing
SMTP), let me explain where I'm stumped.
The diagnost
> there are no inodes in 9p. so no.
I'll have private namespaces in preference over inodes any day.
++L
> is there already an compressed (9p-)filesystem ?
> I'm doing regular rsync backups of several machines and like to
> save disk space. Performance is not important here.
Venti compresses data as the archive back-end to Fossil. That would
meet your requirements pretty closely, I think.
++L
>> > if you want a really cheep aoe device. use vblade on a pair of
>> > fs(3)-mirrored sata drives. i do that at home.
>>
>> Yes, that's on my wish list. And if I read the documentation
>> correctly, using two vblades would give me RAID-5 with a live spare.
>
> fs(3) has no raid5.
>
Yes, I r
> if you want a really cheep aoe device. use vblade on a pair of
> fs(3)-mirrored sata drives. i do that at home.
Yes, that's on my wish list. And if I read the documentation
correctly, using two vblades would give me RAID-5 with a live spare.
Sadly, by the time one adds up all the necessary c
> to make something smaller than the 1U sr0420, one would need
> to have fewer than 4 disks. 4 disks is unfortunately the minimum
> required for raid5+1 hot spare.
I hope this doesn't sound like teaching grandma to suck eggs, but
would laptop-sized disks not help at least with dimensions, I'm not
> coraid is pleased to announce a plan 9 aoe initiator.
> the patch has been submitted as /n/sources/patch/aoe-initiator.
Could you let us know when it is in fact added to the distribution?
++L
> how about one of these whit a mouse-ball underneath?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwriter
Well, that logically takes you to
http://www.infogrip.com/product_view.asp?RecordNumber=12
(at least, that's what Firefox claims) and you wonder how one can
justify paying USD349 for suc
> For some definition of "standard", really. The thing is that the
> letter "a" is a clear concept no one is likely to argue with (and even
> there, different keyboard layouts throw a spanner in the works, but at
> least one assumes the keyboard has clear labels in place), but using
> F1-F2-F3 as
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