Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers (Sandra Brown)

Ok. Sounds like Mike has added a clearer restriction to his policy proposal, so I'm satisfied with that. Thanks, Scott On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 11:16 AM, John Curran wrote: > On May 1, 2014, at 1:14 PM, Scott Leibrand > wrote: > >> We actually consider that paragraph regarding "repeated reques

Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers (Sandra Brown)

On May 1, 2014, at 1:14 PM, Scott Leibrand wrote: >> We actually consider that paragraph regarding "repeated requests" within the >> context >> of the policy section in which it was adopted, so 'requests' refers to >> requests for ARIN- >> issued resources (i.e. those that could lead to "Unmet

Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers

In February 2012, I authored an ARIN policy proposal to eliminate any needs-based justification on paid transfers. It was not adopted obviously. Interestingly, the RIPE NCC adopted policy to remove needs-based justification on paid transfers in February 2014. With the benefit of two plus years f

Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers (Sandra Brown)

> On May 1, 2014, at 4:51 AM, John Curran wrote: > >> On Apr 30, 2014, at 7:05 PM, Andrew Dul wrote: >> >>> On 4/30/2014 6:40 PM, Scott Leibrand wrote: >>> ... >>> It's hiding in 4.1.8: >>> >>> Repeated requests, in a manner that would circumvent 4.1.6, are not >>> allowed: an organization

Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers (Sandra Brown)

On Apr 30, 2014, at 7:05 PM, Andrew Dul wrote: > On 4/30/2014 6:40 PM, Scott Leibrand wrote: >> ... >> It's hiding in 4.1.8: >> >> Repeated requests, in a manner that would circumvent 4.1.6, are not allowed: >> an organization may only receive one allocation, assignment, or transfer >> every

Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers (fwd)

Hi Bill, Sorry for not answering in order. On Tue, 29 Apr 2014, Bill Darte wrote: Hi John, Couple of questions. could the solution for staff effort be solved more directly by modifying the protocol that establishes team testing for each and every request through exhaustion?  I wonder abou

Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers (Sandra Brown)

Hi Andrew, I had a similar question. 8.3 says the minimum transfer is /24. ARIN's initial ISP minimum allocation is a /20. If a new ISP wants to buy just a /24, which minimum would apply? We called ARIN today and found out that section 4 prevails and the new ISP could not purchase a /24 even wi

Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers (Sandra Brown)

On 4/30/2014 6:40 PM, Scott Leibrand wrote: > > On Apr 30, 2014, at 5:04 PM, Andrew Dul > wrote: > >> On 4/30/2014 4:50 PM, Scott Leibrand wrote: On Apr 30, 2014, at 4:45 PM, Andrew Dul wrote: > On 4/30/2014 1:55 PM, sandrabr...@ipv4marketgroup.com wrote

Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers (Sandra Brown)

> On Apr 30, 2014, at 5:04 PM, Andrew Dul wrote: > >> On 4/30/2014 4:50 PM, Scott Leibrand wrote: On Apr 30, 2014, at 4:45 PM, Andrew Dul wrote: On 4/30/2014 1:55 PM, sandrabr...@ipv4marketgroup.com wrote: BUT: With the limitation of the transfer size to a /16 or smaller,

Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers

Support - I agree with Sandra Brown. _ Hikyu Lee President Softlinx, Inc. Work: +1.978.881.0561 Mobile: +1.978.502.4283 Email: h...@softlinx.com ___ PPML You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Public Policy Mail

Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers (Sandra Brown)

e previous year, etc." Regards, Mike - Original Message - From: "Andrew Dul" To: "Mike Burns" ; Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 8:10 PM Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers (Sandra Brown) On 4/30/2014 4:56 P

Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers (fwd)

Hi Bill and John, Thank you for the thoughtful responses. As a purely process note, please allow me to point out that what we have here, ARIN-prop-204, is merely a policy proposal. I will do my best to answer comments and questions posed inline, but they appear to relate to later steps in the

Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers (Sandra Brown)

is only on the source entity and it only prevents them from receiving addresses within that period, not from doing additional transfers out. Andrew > > - Original Message - From: "Andrew Dul" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 7:45 PM > Subject: Re: [a

Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers (Sandra Brown)

On 4/30/2014 4:50 PM, Scott Leibrand wrote: >> On Apr 30, 2014, at 4:45 PM, Andrew Dul wrote: >> >>> On 4/30/2014 1:55 PM, sandrabr...@ipv4marketgroup.com wrote: >>> BUT: With the limitation of the transfer size to a /16 or smaller, it >>> would take a lot of transfers to hoard. It would take 25

Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers (Sandra Brown)

ot; To: Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 7:45 PM Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers (Sandra Brown) On 4/30/2014 1:55 PM, sandrabr...@ipv4marketgroup.com wrote: BUT: With the limitation of the transfer size to a /16 or smaller, it woul

Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers (Sandra Brown)

> On Apr 30, 2014, at 4:45 PM, Andrew Dul wrote: > >> On 4/30/2014 1:55 PM, sandrabr...@ipv4marketgroup.com wrote: >> BUT: With the limitation of the transfer size to a /16 or smaller, it >> would take a lot of transfers to hoard. It would take 256 transfers to >> stockpile a /8. This is the

Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers (Sandra Brown)

On 4/30/2014 1:55 PM, sandrabr...@ipv4marketgroup.com wrote: > BUT: With the limitation of the transfer size to a /16 or smaller, it > would take a lot of transfers to hoard. It would take 256 transfers to > stockpile a /8. This is the 2nd means to prevent hoarding. Most > companies wanting tha

Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers

I would like to address Mr. Herrin's questions below. -- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 17:39:03 -0400 From: William Herrin To: John Springer Cc: "arin-ppml@arin.net" Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers (fwd) Message-ID:

Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers (fwd)

Not in favor. Post exhaustion perhaps. On Tuesday, April 29, 2014, John Springer wrote: > Hi All, > > The following timely policy proposal is presented for your consideration, > discussion and comment. Will you please comment? > > As always, expressions of support or opposition (and their reas

Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers (fwd)

How would we go about assessing whether such changes prove harmful or helpful? What metrics does ARIN collect under this policy which can be analyzed and presented here so we can consider expanding it to larger transfers? Does no justification mean no documentation? What makes you think /16 is

Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers (fwd)

Marty, Are you suggesting the whole idea of removing needs testing from small IPv4 transfers would be a massive abuse vector? Or; Do you mean only John's suggestion of a presumption of good faith for small allocations would be a massive abuse vector? Thanks. On 4/30/14, 17:19 , Martin Han

Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers (fwd)

John - If you apply for number resources today and make fraudulent statements to support your request, the resources obtained are subject to reclamation. Generally, this is when supporting material/representations were later found to be factually incorrect. If ARIN were to simpl

Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers (fwd)

It'll be a massive abuse vector. Best, Martin On Wednesday, April 30, 2014, John Santos wrote: > > I agree with Bill. It might be appropriate to drop needs testing for > small allocations simply because it is not worth the effort, but I don't > see a /16 as being small. Something in the rang

Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers (fwd)

On 14-04-30 03:04 PM, John Santos wrote: Another idea to ponder would be instead of dropping the need requirement, we adopt a presumption of good faith for small allocations. ARIN would simply take the word of the requester or recipient for small allocations or transfers, but if it was later dis

Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers (fwd)

I agree with Bill. It might be appropriate to drop needs testing for small allocations simply because it is not worth the effort, but I don't see a /16 as being small. Something in the range of /24 to /20 would be better. Another idea to ponder would be instead of dropping the need requirement,

Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers (fwd)

On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 1:35 AM, John Springer wrote: > ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers > > Policy statement: > Change the language in NRPM 8.3 after Conditions on the recipient of the > transfer: from "The recipient must demonstrate the need for up to a 24-month > supp

Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers (Sandra Brown)

Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 4:55 PM To: arin-ppml@arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers (Sandra Brown) Support. I have been discussing the topic of reducing need with Andrew Dul and Owen DeLong at and since ARIN33 in Chicago. I to

Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers (Sandra Brown)

Support. I have been discussing the topic of reducing need with Andrew Dul and Owen DeLong at and since ARIN33 in Chicago. I too had reached the conclusion that the right approach was for reduction of needs justification for /16 and smaller, so I am very pleased to support this proposal. Small

Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers (fwd)

On 14-04-29 10:28 AM, David Huberman wrote: When I studied it for ARIN, 87% of the v4 address space ARIN issued over a 2 year period went to ELEVEN companies. I’m not speaking directly to prop 204, but in general: policy has favored big guys at the gross expense of small guys for 15 years. It’

Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers (fwd)

/OPS Program Manager (GFS) From: arin-ppml-boun...@arin.net [mailto:arin-ppml-boun...@arin.net] On Behalf Of Owen DeLong Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 10:15 AM To: TheIpv6guy . Cc: arin-ppml@arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers (fwd) In

Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers (fwd)

In general, I think removing needs basis is an utterly bad idea. However, if we were to do a 1 year trial at /20, to gather data and evaluate the actual impacts of such a policy, I would consider that acceptable. + Does it actually lead to increased whois accuracy as proclaimed by

Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers (fwd)

Opp On Apr 28, 2014 10:35 PM, "John Springer" wrote: > > Hi All, > > The following timely policy proposal is presented for your consideration, discussion and comment. Will you please comment? > > As always, expressions of support or opposition (and their reasons) are given slightly more weight tha

Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers (fwd)

t: Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers (fwd) Hi John, Couple of questions. could the solution for staff effort be solved more directly by modifying the protocol that establishes team testing for each and every request through exhaustion? I wonder

Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers (fwd)

Hi John, Couple of questions. could the solution for staff effort be solved more directly by modifying the protocol that establishes team testing for each and every request through exhaustion? I wonder about the need for these extraordinary measures. Is /16 small? Did you consider a differe

[arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-204 Removing Needs Test from Small IPv4 Transfers (fwd)

Hi All, The following timely policy proposal is presented for your consideration, discussion and comment. Will you please comment? As always, expressions of support or opposition (and their reasons) are given slightly more weight than reasons why you might be in neither condition. John Spri