Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

Thanks, that was insightful. To recap, subclassloader is a optimization to reduce the startup time of launching a new clojure instance from leiningen. In addition, I learned that computing the classpath was conducted in clojure code. I see now that the bash script is just a bootstrapping tool to ge

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

Brent Millare writes: > Can someone please elaborate on this subclassloader process? Although > the design for leiningen is architecturally simple and understandable > and thus easy to extend, I'm still quite unfamiliar with the "java > way". I believe a little documentation on this aspect can ma

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

Can someone please elaborate on this subclassloader process? Although the design for leiningen is architecturally simple and understandable and thus easy to extend, I'm still quite unfamiliar with the "java way". I believe a little documentation on this aspect can make a significant improvement in

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

Hi, On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 01:32:36PM -0800, Phil Hagelberg wrote: > Historically this has been because calculating the classpath couldn't > be done in Clojure itself since it needed to be done before the JVM > booted. Having to figure this kind of thing out in a shell script or > in elisp is a

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

I'm confused. Why do we need symlinks or copies at all? Why can't we just tell clojure where it's supposed to find a given projects dependencies? I'm sure the answer involves some mumbo-jumbo about classpath and what not, but surely there has to be a better alternative than whatever maven/l

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

Oh, and on a related note, I hate being forced into the src, test, lib heirarchy... Let me put my files where I want them to go. Whatever happened to the lancet build system from Stuart Holloway's book? That seemed to make sense to me. I think there is a big benefit in consistent directory

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

I'm confused. Why do we need symlinks or copies at all? Why can't we just tell clojure where it's supposed to find a given projects dependencies? I'm sure the answer involves some mumbo-jumbo about classpath and what not, but surely there has to be a better alternative than whatever maven/leinin

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 10:24 PM, Meikel Brandmeyer wrote: > On Mar 11, 5:07 am, Brent Millare wrote: >> Since leiningen downloads everything to a local repo, can't we do away >> with copies and use symlinks if they are supported by the filesystem? >> I feel there should be an option for this. > >

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

Hello, 2010/3/11 Per Vognsen : > The way to go is definitely symlinks or hard links, not classpath > hijinks. Why so ? If you use 'mvn repl' or 'lein repl' to start your repl, why not just let mvn / lein manage the dependencies from beginning to end ? > The only problem is that Java's filesyste

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

If you use a DVCS like Mercury or Bazaar that mainly uses clone-style branching then it can become significant. The jars are build artifacts and so ignored by the repository and not subject to the DCVS's hard-link-based sharing. Penumbra is a small project and it already has 12 megabytes of jars in

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

Instead of symlinks you can use hard links like every decent DVCS does for clone-style branches. Hard links are supported on NTFS, HFS, and all the Unix file systems on wide use. They are transparent to users of the file system, so you can easily make tarballs of hardlinked jars, etc, without any p

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

The way to go is definitely symlinks or hard links, not classpath hijinks. The only problem is that Java's filesystem API has no support for links, so you'll probably need to use OS-specific command line calls. Not too bad though. -Per On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 11:07 AM, Brent Millare wrote: > Sin

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

Richard Newman writes: > Whatever happened to engineers building a decent solution out of a > sense of pride, or even making the most basic half-assed attempt to > conserve resources? I take your points but I think we may just have different priorities of what to conserve, so we could probably a

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

repos $ du -hc $(ls */lib/*.jar) | fgrep total 291Mtotal Cost (on standard disks): < 5 cents. Sorry, that's tiny. It's even less than 0.5% of the small SSD I have in my laptop. Seriously, this is just premature optimization. You're seriously fine with every single Leiningen-based proj

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

Richard Newman writes: >> What benefit does this have aside from a tiny saving in disk space? > > Not that tiny when you multiply it across the dozens of projects on > your hard drive. > > repos $ du -hc $(ls */lib/*.jar) | fgrep total > 291M total Cost (on standard disks): < 5 cents. Sorry, t

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

What benefit does this have aside from a tiny saving in disk space? Not that tiny when you multiply it across the dozens of projects on your hard drive. repos $ du -hc $(ls */lib/*.jar) | fgrep total 291Mtotal Add to that the size of the Maven repo itself. Symlinks are nice. * you c

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

Brent Millare writes: > Since leiningen downloads everything to a local repo, can't we do away > with copies and use symlinks if they are supported by the filesystem? > I feel there should be an option for this. What benefit does this have aside from a tiny saving in disk space? The way it curr

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

Hi, On Mar 11, 5:07 am, Brent Millare wrote: > Since leiningen downloads everything to a local repo, can't we do away > with copies and use symlinks if they are supported by the filesystem? > I feel there should be an option for this. Why not adding the files from the repo directly to the classp

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

Since leiningen downloads everything to a local repo, can't we do away with copies and use symlinks if they are supported by the filesystem? I feel there should be an option for this. -Brent On Mar 4, 1:59 pm, David Nolen wrote: > On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 10:19 AM, Stuart Sierra > wrote: > > > As

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

On Mar 4, 7:33 am, Jan Rychter wrote: > I haven't hacked on new Clojure stuff for the past two months or > so. Now, having updated my repositories, I find that everybody just > dropped ant and moved to leiningen. > > I tried to make sense of things, but can't. I must be missing something > big h

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 7:57 AM, Mike K wrote: > On Mar 4, 4:32 pm, Glen Stampoultzis wrote: >> >> Getting swank-clojure going in Windows is also a pain.  To install it the >> recommended way via ELPA you need to patch the ELPA source code first.  This >> isn't documented at the swank-clojure site

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 10:40 AM, Meikel Brandmeyer wrote: > So your point boils down to emacs and lein don't work on Windows. I > don't know about emacs, but at least for leiningen there is some > activity at that front (cf. Rob's response). > > So I still think: if you have trouble with clojure

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

Is anyone familiar with running Maven (and possibly Polygot Maven) on Windows? Does it pretty much work as expected? The learning curve for Maven looks steeper than for Leiningen, but if it makes up for it with better documentation and being better-behaved, then it may be worth it. Mike --

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

On Mar 4, 4:32 pm, Glen Stampoultzis wrote: > > Getting swank-clojure going in Windows is also a pain.  To install it the > recommended way via ELPA you need to patch the ELPA source code first.  This > isn't documented at the swank-clojure site either. For others who are struggling with this iss

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

Hi, On Mon, Mar 08, 2010 at 01:44:44AM +1100, Glen Stampoultzis wrote: > It seems (from my limited observations) that most of the Clojure developers > are Linux/Mac people so it's understandable that Windows isn't currently as > well supported by all tools. Windows has a fairly big share, I thin

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

On 5 March 2010 17:22, Meikel Brandmeyer wrote: > Hi, > > On Mar 5, 1:03 am, Felix Breuer wrote: > > > I agree that Windows is a second class citizen as far as clojure > > tools go. > > Oh please stop that. I have a stable setup of Gradle + Clojuresque + > VimClojure on Windows. Granted setting

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

> > > > If you're using git, this should be avoided. git is remarkably bad at > > storing binary data. > > I seem to recall that recent versions of Git have improved > significantly in this area. However, there's still the fundamental > problem that changing the dependencies increases the size of t

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

On Mar 6, 5:58 am, Phil Hagelberg wrote: > If you're using git, this should be avoided. git is remarkably bad at > storing binary data. I seem to recall that recent versions of Git have improved significantly in this area. However, there's still the fundamental problem that changing the dependenc

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 3:56 PM, Brian Schlining wrote: >> (3) Managing proprietary libraries and API's that you are developing >> or using...  Yes you can throw these into your own maven repo, but >> then you also need to manage, configure and secure a server (when >> working in a team). > > Actua

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 2:38 PM, Rick Moynihan wrote: > (1) getting ./config on the classpath so I can keep properties files, json > config, whatever, separate from code and lib This is actually what the resources/ directory is for. > (2) having more than one kind of tests, in different dirs (e.g

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

> > > As I'm one of the people that's requested this feature... I'll add my > reason too: > > (3) Managing proprietary libraries and API's that you are developing > or using... Yes you can throw these into your own maven repo, but > then you also need to manage, configure and secure a server (when

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

On 5 March 2010 18:49, Stuart Halloway wrote: >>> (2) Improve the project structure imposed by lein, if it is broken in >>> some >>> specific way. (Maybe add a well-known config file for adding elements to >>> the >>> classpath?) >> >> People have asked for this, but I have yet to hear a good use

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

I'll add my 2 cents worth. I've come from a Java development background to Clojure. A couple of years ago our company migrated from Ant to Maven. At first I really really hated it. I found it difficult to make it do what I wanted it to do. Nowadays, though, it is my build tool of choice. The turni

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

(2) Improve the project structure imposed by lein, if it is broken in some specific way. (Maybe add a well-known config file for adding elements to the classpath?) People have asked for this, but I have yet to hear a good use case for it. Mostly it's been requested by people who don't realiz

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 5:52 AM, Stuart Halloway wrote: > Some needs I see: > (0) More point releases of key libs (or some other solution to the snapshots > problem) Agreed. > (1) Unify around the project structure imposed by lein, and/or Yes, but it should be noted this isn't really the "leinin

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

On Mar 5, 11:17 am, Stuart Sierra wrote: > Maven supports a wide range of development/deployment models already. > Whatever you want to do (including compile/test/run Clojure code) > there's a plugin for that.  Why recreate all this functionality in > Leiningen? Most of the time, I won't need the

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 9:47 PM, Stuart Sierra wrote: > > Yes, the Maven configuration model isn't pretty, but if you follow the > conventions it works.  Polyglot Maven will obviate the need to write I didn't know about Polyglot. Thanks. Looks like a very nice tool.

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

On Mar 4, 1:59 pm, David Nolen wrote: > If Lein evolves to to handle dependencies of dependencies and intelligently > generates the classpath based on these dependencies (instead of copying > files around) what advantage does Maven really have? Maven supports a wide range of development/deploymen

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

2010/3/5 Meikel Brandmeyer : > Hi, > > On Mar 5, 1:03 am, Felix Breuer wrote: > >> I agree that Windows is a second class citizen as far as clojure >> tools go. > > Oh please stop that. I have a stable setup of Gradle + Clojuresque + > VimClojure on Windows. Furthermore, all java tools play well

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 12:34 PM, Meikel Brandmeyer wrote: > Hi, > > On Mar 5, 7:47 am, Martin DeMello wrote: > >> One huge drawback I've found with clojure (which it doubtless >> inherited from Java) is that you need an actual jarfile in your >> classpath, not just the directory containing the ja

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

On 5 Mar, 01:03, Felix Breuer wrote: > I am also on Windows and have struggled a good deal with Leiningen (I [...] > On 5 Mrz., 00:32, Glen Stampoultzis wrote: > > > > > On 5 March 2010 04:39, Chris Perkins wrote: > > > > The situation is worse on Windows, where I can't even get leiningen to

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

Hi, On Mar 5, 7:47 am, Martin DeMello wrote: > One huge drawback I've found with clojure (which it doubtless > inherited from Java) is that you need an actual jarfile in your > classpath, not just the directory containing the jarfile. With newer Java versions you can specify wildcards. java -cp

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 7:03 PM, Jan Rychter wrote: > > As a more general observation, I think that a large part of Perl's and > Python's success was a unified way of dealing with libraries. There > are certain directories where you can drop libraries and expect them to > work (be found). There is

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

Hi, On Mar 5, 1:03 am, Felix Breuer wrote: > I agree that Windows is a second class citizen as far as clojure > tools go. Oh please stop that. I have a stable setup of Gradle + Clojuresque + VimClojure on Windows. Granted setting up VimClojure on Windows is tricky due to Vim and Windows specifi

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

I am also on Windows and have struggled a good deal with Leiningen (I would like to avoid wrangling classpaths myself as far as possible). I finally got Leiningen to run, but some features like lein swank still elude me (though this is a problem of swank-clojure and not of Leiningen). I agree that

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

> > > > If Lein evolves to to handle dependencies of dependencies and > intelligently generates the classpath based on these dependencies (instead > of copying files around) what advantage does Maven really have? > > The tools (e.g. Archiva, Nexus et al), documentation, IDE support, > integration w

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

On 05/03/2010, at 5:29 AM, David Nolen wrote: > On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 10:19 AM, Stuart Sierra > wrote: > As many of you know, I've always been tepid on lein. I'd rather go > with Maven whole-hog, because that offers the most robust model for > incorporating Java libraries. > > If Lein evolve

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

On 5 March 2010 04:39, Chris Perkins wrote: > > The situation is worse on Windows, where I can't even get leiningen to > work at all. Luckily I'm only working on one clojure project, so I > just copy clojure.jar and clojure-contrib.jar into my project's lib > directory, as well as a faked versio

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

On Mar 4, 8:33 am, Jan Rychter wrote: > I haven't hacked on new Clojure stuff for the past two months or > so. Now, having updated my repositories, I find that everybody just > dropped ant and moved to leiningen. > How do people deal with this? I don't have any good answers for you; I just want

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

On 4 Mar 2010, at 19:38, David Nolen wrote: Imperfections meaning it's perfectly broken :) That's why tools like virtualenv exist for Python. I'd say it's "New Jersey style": good enough for 90% of the users, but indeed fundamentally broken. Konrad. -- You received this message because y

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 10:19 AM, Stuart Sierra wrote: > As many of you know, I've always been tepid on lein. I'd rather go > with Maven whole-hog, because that offers the most robust model for > incorporating Java libraries. > If Lein evolves to to handle dependencies of dependencies and intelli

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 8:33 AM, Jan Rychter wrote: > Also, I now have at least six clojure jars in ~/.m2 (huh?!), along with > a collection of other assorted stuff. I don't want to use any of these > clojure jars, I have a checked out git repo with clojure and this is the > only code I want to ru

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 10:59 AM, Konrad Hinsen wrote: > Right, but its imperfections have bothered me often enough. For once, if > you have different applications that require different versions of the same > library, you are in for a major headache. Python setuptools and its eggs are > a partial

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

On 4 March 2010 10:19, Stuart Sierra wrote: > As many of you know, I've always been tepid on lein.  I'd rather go > with Maven whole-hog, because that offers the most robust model for > incorporating Java libraries. Out of interest, what scenarios does Maven account for that Leiningen currently d

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

Hi, On Thu, Mar 04, 2010 at 07:11:59AM -0800, Praki Prakash wrote: > I have also seen a weird issue in my code base which has two classes > derived from java.lang.Exception. If I do a clean and try compile, I > get an error saying that my.package.MyException class not found. My > workaround is, s

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

Lein could be a step in the right direction, but I wonder how it will manage to evolve given the complex tools it uses internally. I have also seen a weird issue in my code base which has two classes derived from java.lang.Exception. If I do a clean and try compile, I get an error saying that my.p

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

On 04.03.2010, at 14:33, Jan Rychter wrote: > It seems that leiningen assumes that you are building an application. It > downloads all dependencies and can build an uberjar for you. That's > great, but what if what I have is a bunch of libraries, all being > developed and modified? That's my situ

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

On Mar 4, 8:52 am, Stuart Halloway wrote: > My 2c: Leiningen is an important step, but there is still plenty to do. Oh yeah. > Some needs I see: > > (0) More point releases of key libs (or some other solution to the   > snapshots problem) Yes! > (1) Unify around the project structure imposed b

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

The .m2 folder is a Maven 2 convention. Leiningen uses Maven internally. .m2 contains your "local repository" - the single standard place where stuff gets downloaded to. When doing lein deps in a project folder any dependencies are downloaded to your local repo first (unless you already had the lib

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

"artifacts" (huh?!), things get installed in weird places. My clj script that gets run by SLIME form Emacs can't find libraries that leiningen downloaded. "lein deps" copies dependencies into the project's lib directory. Various other lein commands assume lib/*.jar is on the classpath, and

Re: Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

Hi Jan, My 2c: Leiningen is an important step, but there is still plenty to do. My workflow: I am developing multiple Clojure libraries and applications, with some of the dependencies changing daily. Whenever I want to make a change, I: In the project being changed: git tag a new version n

Leiningen, Clojure and libraries: what am I missing?

I haven't hacked on new Clojure stuff for the past two months or so. Now, having updated my repositories, I find that everybody just dropped ant and moved to leiningen. I tried to make sense of things, but can't. I must be missing something big here. It seems that leiningen assumes that you are b