Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

On 18 April 2018 at 23:08, Lars Wirzenius wrote: > > Most of the problems being discussed right now, and in general, seem > to be of the sort where feelings are hurt, but harassment isn't > happening. The situations seem to be "A did something, and B was > offended, how do we get A

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

Well, this conversation that is very important and relevant for me, reaches me in a bad moment. So expuse my slow replies, please. On 18/04/18 17:17, Ian Jackson wrote: > Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"): >> "Debian emotional support gr

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 09:46:03PM +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > If there would be one clear rule, I´d say: Never ever attack a person. > Harmlessness with each other goes a long, long way. > > Wrongdoing someone who probably did something that did not serve the > project or another

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

Colin Watson - 19.04.18, 01:42: > On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 09:28:44PM +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > > Did I get this right that you think that a person can be a problem > > that possibly would have to be removed from the project? > > > > If so I heavily disagree with that. > > It's an action

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

Dear fellow developers, > > That's certainly true. I thought of these ideas: > > What about [..] I would agree that the current name for the Anti-Harrassment team is sub-optimal and that names & words are uniquely powerful tools at our disposal. I can think of many historical examples in

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

On 15011 March 1977, Ian Jackson wrote: > * Where appropriate, recommend action to: DAM, TC, listmaster, IRC >operators, DPL. Information about the situation would be provided >by the disputes team to the gatekeeper team; but the gatekeeper >team would not be expected to make its

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

On Wed, 18 Apr 2018, Ian Jackson wrote: > > This implies to me that, at the least, "anti-harassment" is the wrong > > name for a team that deals with this. > > That's certainly true. I thought of these ideas: What about def...@debian.org ? You write to them when you are about to explode and

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 09:28:44PM +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > Did I get this right that you think that a person can be a problem that > possibly would have to be removed from the project? > > If so I heavily disagree with that. It's an action the project has had to take a few times

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

Hi Tincho, > Currently, it can only give recommendations, but it is not void Mm, but just to be 100% clear, the team could naturally be granted additional powers — we need not consider the status quo to be the permanent state of affairs. (It could also be renamed too but as you can see from

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

Ian Jackson - 18.04.18, 19:23: > The answer is, carrot: advertising that the alternative route has a > possibility of delivering something like what an angry person actually > thinks they want - punishment for the wrongdoer. > > And, of course, stick: if you post to d-devel anyway then your own >

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

Ian Jackson - 18.04.18, 18:17: > Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"): > > "Debian emotional support group", maybe. > > I find this suggestion very surprising, possibly even insulting. At > the very least I need to

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

Lars Wirzenius - 18.04.18, 15:08: > On Wed, 2018-04-18 at 13:41 +0100, Martín Ferrari wrote: > > I believe that a-h is the natural starting point for dealing with > > these issues. > > Most of the problems being discussed right now, and in general, seem > to be of the sort where feelings are

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

Gunnar Wolf writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"): > But my critique to Ian's original point stands: As long as the people > involved in said "hard" social interactions post their messages to > debian-devel or debian-whatever, no conflict-preven

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

El 18 de abril de 2018 17:59:38 CEST, Gunnar Wolf escribió: >Lars Wirzenius dijo [Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 04:08:24PM +0300]: >> On Wed, 2018-04-18 at 13:41 +0100, Martín Ferrari wrote: >> > I believe that a-h is the natural starting point for dealing with >these >> > issues. >>

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

On Wed, 2018-04-18 at 17:17 +0100, Ian Jackson wrote: > Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"): > > "Debian emotional support group", maybe. > > I find this suggestion very surprising, possibly even insulting. At > the very least

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 05:17:10PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote: > This group would: > * Write and publish guidelines for how to behave [...] > * The new group would have a foundational document which would >explicitly give it authority to do all of the above. this would be horrible. we are

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

On Wed, 18 Apr 2018 17:55:03 +0300, Lars Wirzenius wrote: > On Wed, 2018-04-18 at 15:51 +0100, Ian Jackson wrote: > > Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"): > > > This implies to me that, at the least, "anti-harassment" is the

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"): > "Debian emotional support group", maybe. I find this suggestion very surprising, possibly even insulting. At the very least I need to be much clearer. > But maybe wait with the naming until there's a c

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

On Wed, 18 Apr 2018, Ian Jackson wrote: > 2. You are suggesting mediation. Yes. It has been my experience that many of the occasional flareups in Debian have at their root a failure of communication between one or more parties which has been escalated instead of mediated. > Mediation is

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

Lars Wirzenius dijo [Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 04:08:24PM +0300]: > On Wed, 2018-04-18 at 13:41 +0100, Martín Ferrari wrote: > > I believe that a-h is the natural starting point for dealing with these > > issues. > > Most of the problems being discussed right now, and in general, seem > to be of the

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline, name

On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 10:56:41AM -0400, Michael Stone wrote: > On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 03:51:48PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote: > >Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"): > >>Most of the problems being discussed right now, and in general, seem

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 03:51:48PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote: Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"): Most of the problems being discussed right now, and in general, seem to be of the sort where feelings are hurt, but harassment isn't happening. The situa

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

On Wed, 2018-04-18 at 15:51 +0100, Ian Jackson wrote: > Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"): > > Most of the problems being discussed right now, and in general, seem > > to be of the sort where feelings are hurt, but harassment isn't > >

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"): > Most of the problems being discussed right now, and in general, seem > to be of the sort where feelings are hurt, but harassment isn't > happening. The situations seem to be "A did something, and B was &

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

On 4/18/18, Cindy-Sue Causey wrote: > On 4/18/18, Lars Wirzenius wrote: >> On Wed, 2018-04-18 at 13:41 +0100, Martín Ferrari wrote: >>> I believe that a-h is the natural starting point for dealing with these >>> issues. >> >> Most of the problems being

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

On 4/18/18, Lars Wirzenius wrote: > On Wed, 2018-04-18 at 13:41 +0100, Martín Ferrari wrote: >> I believe that a-h is the natural starting point for dealing with these >> issues. > > Most of the problems being discussed right now, and in general, seem > to be of the sort where

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

On Wed, 2018-04-18 at 13:41 +0100, Martín Ferrari wrote: > I believe that a-h is the natural starting point for dealing with these > issues. Most of the problems being discussed right now, and in general, seem to be of the sort where feelings are hurt, but harassment isn't happening. The

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

Hey, I have not been able to contribute properly to this thread so far, for personal issues, but I would like to leave my 5¢. On 18/04/18 12:49, Ian Jackson wrote: > 6. You mention `anti-harassment' as a `lever of power" but of course >anti-harassment have no inherent authority. > > IMO the

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

Don Armstrong writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"): > On Tue, 17 Apr 2018, Gunnar Wolf wrote: > > But that's my point: Do you want to solve that by adding... Yet > > another contact point? > > Would it be OK if leader@ stayed the contact point, but lead

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

Chris Lamb writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"): > Hi Gunnar et al., > > [Ian:] > > > An effective, reliable and unified disciplinary mechanism > [..] > > Thing is, I believe we have several bodies / mechanisms that partially > > cover

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

On Tue, 17 Apr 2018, Gunnar Wolf wrote: > Chris Lamb dijo [Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 07:12:26PM +0100]: > > I also am reluctant to speak for Ian (!) but I believe he is making > > the point that it is this very diversity of contact points that > > could be part of the problem. > > But that's my

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

Chris Lamb dijo [Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 07:12:26PM +0100]: > > FSVO desperate. I agree we need it, but based on the project's current > > level of discussions, I don't think it's a "desperate" situation. > (...) > This is made even more tragic in that I do not believe this is > representative of

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

Hi Gunnar et al., > FSVO desperate. I agree we need it, but based on the project's current > level of discussions, I don't think it's a "desperate" situation. I'm reluctant to jump so quickly to a meta dicussion but I think we underestimate the subtle effects of such discussions. In particular

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

Ian Jackson dijo [Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 01:39:07PM +0100]: > We desperately need: FSVO desperate. I agree we need it, but based on the project's current level of discussions, I don't think it's a "desperate" situation. > * Somewhere people can escalate a dispute involving ill-feeling, >that

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"): > On 2018-04-17 14:39, Ian Jackson wrote: > > We desperately need: > > > > * Somewhere people can escalate a dispute involving ill-feeling, > >that isn't debian-devel[0] or

Re: Conflict escalation and discipline

On 2018-04-17 14:39, Ian Jackson wrote: We desperately need: * Somewhere people can escalate a dispute involving ill-feeling, that isn't debian-devel[0] or the DPL[1]. * An effective, reliable and unified[2] disciplinary mechanism that (i) promotes healing, apology and reconciliation

Conflict escalation and discipline

We desperately need: * Somewhere people can escalate a dispute involving ill-feeling, that isn't debian-devel[0] or the DPL[1]. * An effective, reliable and unified[2] disciplinary mechanism that (i) promotes healing, apology and reconciliation where that is feasible (ii) failing