We desperately need:
* Somewhere people can escalate a dispute involving ill-feeling,
that isn't debian-devel[0] or the DPL[1].
* An effective, reliable and unified[2] disciplinary mechanism that
(i) promotes healing, apology and reconciliation where that is
feasible (ii) failing that,
On 2018-04-17 14:39, Ian Jackson wrote:
We desperately need:
* Somewhere people can escalate a dispute involving ill-feeling,
that isn't debian-devel[0] or the DPL[1].
* An effective, reliable and unified[2] disciplinary mechanism that
(i) promotes healing, apology and reconciliation wh
Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"):
> On 2018-04-17 14:39, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > We desperately need:
> >
> > * Somewhere people can escalate a dispute involving ill-feeling,
> >that isn't debian-devel[
Ian Jackson dijo [Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 01:39:07PM +0100]:
> We desperately need:
FSVO desperate. I agree we need it, but based on the project's current
level of discussions, I don't think it's a "desperate" situation.
> * Somewhere people can escalate a dispute involving ill-feeling,
>that i
Hi Gunnar et al.,
> FSVO desperate. I agree we need it, but based on the project's current
> level of discussions, I don't think it's a "desperate" situation.
I'm reluctant to jump so quickly to a meta dicussion but I think we
underestimate the subtle effects of such discussions. In particular
ho
Chris Lamb dijo [Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 07:12:26PM +0100]:
> > FSVO desperate. I agree we need it, but based on the project's current
> > level of discussions, I don't think it's a "desperate" situation.
> (...)
> This is made even more tragic in that I do not believe this is
> representative of wha
On Tue, 17 Apr 2018, Gunnar Wolf wrote:
> Chris Lamb dijo [Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 07:12:26PM +0100]:
> > I also am reluctant to speak for Ian (!) but I believe he is making
> > the point that it is this very diversity of contact points that
> > could be part of the problem.
>
> But that's my point:
Chris Lamb writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"):
> Hi Gunnar et al.,
> > [Ian:]
> > > An effective, reliable and unified disciplinary mechanism
> [..]
> > Thing is, I believe we have several bodies / mechanisms that partially
> > cover the
Don Armstrong writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"):
> On Tue, 17 Apr 2018, Gunnar Wolf wrote:
> > But that's my point: Do you want to solve that by adding... Yet
> > another contact point?
>
> Would it be OK if leader@ stayed the contact point, but
Hey, I have not been able to contribute properly to this thread so far,
for personal issues, but I would like to leave my 5¢.
On 18/04/18 12:49, Ian Jackson wrote:
> 6. You mention `anti-harassment' as a `lever of power" but of course
>anti-harassment have no inherent authority.
>
> IMO the
On Wed, 2018-04-18 at 13:41 +0100, Martín Ferrari wrote:
> I believe that a-h is the natural starting point for dealing with these
> issues.
Most of the problems being discussed right now, and in general, seem
to be of the sort where feelings are hurt, but harassment isn't
happening. The situation
On 4/18/18, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
> On Wed, 2018-04-18 at 13:41 +0100, Martín Ferrari wrote:
>> I believe that a-h is the natural starting point for dealing with these
>> issues.
>
> Most of the problems being discussed right now, and in general, seem
> to be of the sort where feelings are hurt, b
On 4/18/18, Cindy-Sue Causey wrote:
> On 4/18/18, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
>> On Wed, 2018-04-18 at 13:41 +0100, Martín Ferrari wrote:
>>> I believe that a-h is the natural starting point for dealing with these
>>> issues.
>>
>> Most of the problems being discussed right now, and in general, seem
>>
Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"):
> Most of the problems being discussed right now, and in general, seem
> to be of the sort where feelings are hurt, but harassment isn't
> happening. The situations seem to be "A did something, and B wa
On Wed, 2018-04-18 at 15:51 +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"):
> > Most of the problems being discussed right now, and in general, seem
> > to be of the sort where feelings are hurt, but harassment isn't
>
On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 03:51:48PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"):
Most of the problems being discussed right now, and in general, seem
to be of the sort where feelings are hurt, but harassment isn't
happening. The sit
Lars Wirzenius dijo [Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 04:08:24PM +0300]:
> On Wed, 2018-04-18 at 13:41 +0100, Martín Ferrari wrote:
> > I believe that a-h is the natural starting point for dealing with these
> > issues.
>
> Most of the problems being discussed right now, and in general, seem
> to be of the so
On Wed, 18 Apr 2018, Ian Jackson wrote:
> 2. You are suggesting mediation.
Yes. It has been my experience that many of the occasional flareups in
Debian have at their root a failure of communication between one or more
parties which has been escalated instead of mediated.
> Mediation is certain
Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"):
> "Debian emotional support group", maybe.
I find this suggestion very surprising, possibly even insulting. At
the very least I need to be much clearer.
> But maybe wait with the naming until there'
On Wed, 18 Apr 2018 17:55:03 +0300, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
> On Wed, 2018-04-18 at 15:51 +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"):
> > > This implies to me that, at the least, "anti-harassment" is the wrong
On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 05:17:10PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
> This group would:
> * Write and publish guidelines for how to behave
[...]
> * The new group would have a foundational document which would
>explicitly give it authority to do all of the above.
this would be horrible. we are *di
On Wed, 2018-04-18 at 17:17 +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"):
> > "Debian emotional support group", maybe.
>
> I find this suggestion very surprising, possibly even insulting. At
> the very least
El 18 de abril de 2018 17:59:38 CEST, Gunnar Wolf escribió:
>Lars Wirzenius dijo [Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 04:08:24PM +0300]:
>> On Wed, 2018-04-18 at 13:41 +0100, Martín Ferrari wrote:
>> > I believe that a-h is the natural starting point for dealing with
>these
>> > issues.
>>
>> Most of the prob
Gunnar Wolf writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"):
> But my critique to Ian's original point stands: As long as the people
> involved in said "hard" social interactions post their messages to
> debian-devel or debian-whatever, no conflict-preven
Lars Wirzenius - 18.04.18, 15:08:
> On Wed, 2018-04-18 at 13:41 +0100, Martín Ferrari wrote:
> > I believe that a-h is the natural starting point for dealing with
> > these issues.
>
> Most of the problems being discussed right now, and in general, seem
> to be of the sort where feelings are hurt,
Ian Jackson - 18.04.18, 18:17:
> Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"):
> > "Debian emotional support group", maybe.
>
> I find this suggestion very surprising, possibly even insulting. At
> the very least I need to be much c
Ian Jackson - 18.04.18, 19:23:
> The answer is, carrot: advertising that the alternative route has a
> possibility of delivering something like what an angry person actually
> thinks they want - punishment for the wrongdoer.
>
> And, of course, stick: if you post to d-devel anyway then your own
>
Hi Tincho,
> Currently, it can only give recommendations, but it is not void
Mm, but just to be 100% clear, the team could naturally be granted
additional powers — we need not consider the status quo to be the
permanent state of affairs.
(It could also be renamed too but as you can see from else
On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 09:28:44PM +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> Did I get this right that you think that a person can be a problem that
> possibly would have to be removed from the project?
>
> If so I heavily disagree with that.
It's an action the project has had to take a few times befor
On Wed, 18 Apr 2018, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > This implies to me that, at the least, "anti-harassment" is the wrong
> > name for a team that deals with this.
>
> That's certainly true. I thought of these ideas:
What about def...@debian.org ?
You write to them when you are about to explode and nee
On 15011 March 1977, Ian Jackson wrote:
> * Where appropriate, recommend action to: DAM, TC, listmaster, IRC
>operators, DPL. Information about the situation would be provided
>by the disputes team to the gatekeeper team; but the gatekeeper
>team would not be expected to make its own
Dear fellow developers,
> > That's certainly true. I thought of these ideas:
>
> What about [..]
I would agree that the current name for the Anti-Harrassment team
is sub-optimal and that names & words are uniquely powerful tools
at our disposal.
I can think of many historical examples in Debia
Colin Watson - 19.04.18, 01:42:
> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 09:28:44PM +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> > Did I get this right that you think that a person can be a problem
> > that possibly would have to be removed from the project?
> >
> > If so I heavily disagree with that.
>
> It's an action
On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 09:46:03PM +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> If there would be one clear rule, I´d say: Never ever attack a person.
> Harmlessness with each other goes a long, long way.
>
> Wrongdoing someone who probably did something that did not serve the
> project or another person
Well, this conversation that is very important and relevant for me,
reaches me in a bad moment. So expuse my slow replies, please.
On 18/04/18 17:17, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"):
>> "Debian emotional support group&q
On 18 April 2018 at 23:08, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
>
> Most of the problems being discussed right now, and in general, seem
> to be of the sort where feelings are hurt, but harassment isn't
> happening. The situations seem to be "A did something, and B was
> offended, how do we get A and B to unders
On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 10:56:41AM -0400, Michael Stone wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 03:51:48PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
> >Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"):
> >>Most of the problems being discussed right now, and in general, seem
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