On 06.12.2005 13:18, Steven Noels wrote:
I'm
surprised to finally see evidence of an anti-OSGI camp in Cocoon. Not
that this surprises me, but it's just sad that this hasn't been
clarified much earlier. That damned community tax again, I guess. Waste
of time and energy for everyone.
At leas
On 04.12.2005 17:00, Sylvain Wallez wrote:
Start a whiteboard prototype if you feel like it, but to me it seem
quite risky to try to rewrite everything from scratch, although I have
felt the urge myself countless time while struggling with the messy
internals. But before you go ahead and rewri
Daniel Fagerstrom wrote:
Berin Loritsch wrote:
I will continue to be proud of our brand, our product and our
community. And I will continue the work on *Cocoon* towards the
future in an evolutionary way, so that those who have put their
trust in us have a reasonable migration path to follow.
Berin Loritsch wrote:
Daniel Fagerstrom wrote:
To me:
* throwing away the collected work of the community
* building something rather different
* throwing away a strong brand
* leave all the users who has put a trust in us behind
seem like a rather strange way of "saving" Cocoon.
It seemed
Romano Trampus wrote:
Sorry, I read "spots" of this list and somebody could have written the
same:
I think the cocoon package is too big. I would prefer a core and a lot of
plugins, not in the same distribution. I think the cocoon package is great
but confusing. With plugins you have not to ca
thing must have the
same maturity level. And if I need a plugin I have only to download that,
just as I do that with eclipse.
bye
romano
-Original Message-
From: Berin Loritsch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: martedì 6 dicembre 2005 14.44
To: dev@cocoon.apache.org
Subject: Re: [RT] The
Daniel Fagerstrom wrote:
To me:
* throwing away the collected work of the community
* building something rather different
* throwing away a strong brand
* leave all the users who has put a trust in us behind
seem like a rather strange way of "saving" Cocoon.
It seemed like a rather strange
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
Le 6 déc. 05, à 10:12, Ugo Cei a écrit :
...I also see "Too soon" on that list, which might be descriptive of
the feelings of some people on this list ;).
It might be too soon to choose a name for something which doesn't exist
yet...but choosing a "code name" help
Steven Noels wrote:
On 06 Dec 2005, at 12:04, Sylvain Wallez wrote:
Steven Noels wrote:
On 06 Dec 2005, at 09:59, Sylvain Wallez wrote:
Struts has Shale
Meeep. Bu. Wrong.
Struts has Craig.
And Tapestry has Howard and Spring has Rod. What do you mean?
I meant to say that Struts is
On 06 Dec 2005, at 12:04, Sylvain Wallez wrote:
Steven Noels wrote:
On 06 Dec 2005, at 09:59, Sylvain Wallez wrote:
Struts has Shale
Meeep. Bu. Wrong.
Struts has Craig.
And Tapestry has Howard and Spring has Rod. What do you mean?
I meant to say that Struts is a bad example since i
Steven Noels wrote:
On 06 Dec 2005, at 09:59, Sylvain Wallez wrote:
Struts has Shale
Meeep. Bu. Wrong.
Struts has Craig.
And Tapestry has Howard and Spring has Rod. What do you mean? That
Cocoon misses someone that can fully dedicate to it and plays the
benevolent dictator?
Sylvain
On 06 Dec 2005, at 09:59, Sylvain Wallez wrote:
Struts has Shale
Meeep. Bu. Wrong.
Struts has Craig.
It's a telltale of Cocoon's problem that we're off discussing marketing
techniques and branding again, without having any design, code, nor
dedication to boot with. A busy thread just
Ugo Cei wrote:
Il giorno 06/dic/05, alle ore 10:01, Sylvain Wallez ha scritto:
Il like this friendly animal and the rhyme with Cocoon. Now there's
also "Baboon" :-)
Have a look at
http://www.rhymezone.com/r/rhyme.cgi?Word=cocoon&typeofrhyme=perfect&org1=syl&org2=l
I also see "Too soon"
Le 6 déc. 05, à 10:17, Matthew Langham a écrit :
Where is the vision?
Delivering some of the unique things that are inside Cocoon in much
smaller independent packages, to make them useful to people who don't
need all of Cocoon.
Dunno if this qualifies as a vision, but it's how I see it ;-)
Matthew Langham wrote:
No, the brand is not strong.
Look around among people that have *not* used Cocoon and ask
them what it is. Most of them will tell you "it's a
publishing engine", or even "it's a tool to perform XSL
transformations".
What we have now and what we're building is much mor
To me:
* throwing away the collected work of the community
* building something rather different
* throwing away a strong brand
* leave all the users who has put a trust in us behind
seem like a rather strange way of "saving" Cocoon.
I will continue to be proud of our brand, our product and our
>
> No, the brand is not strong.
>
> Look around among people that have *not* used Cocoon and ask
> them what it is. Most of them will tell you "it's a
> publishing engine", or even "it's a tool to perform XSL
> transformations".
>
> What we have now and what we're building is much more than
Le 6 déc. 05, à 10:12, Ugo Cei a écrit :
...I also see "Too soon" on that list, which might be descriptive of
the feelings of some people on this list ;).
It might be too soon to choose a name for something which doesn't exist
yet...but choosing a "code name" helps clarifying what we're talki
Il giorno 06/dic/05, alle ore 10:01, Sylvain Wallez ha scritto:
Il like this friendly animal and the rhyme with Cocoon. Now there's
also "Baboon" :-)
Have a look at http://www.rhymezone.com/r/rhyme.cgi?
Word=cocoon&typeofrhyme=perfect&org1=syl&org2=l
I also see "Too soon" on that list, wh
Ugo Cei wrote:
Il giorno 06/dic/05, alle ore 01:24, David Crossley ha scritto:
I started to draft here what the next-generation Cocoon should be. I
dubbed it "Racoon" (with Andrew's permission) as I really think that
from a marketing point of view, a new name should be used so that
people
don
Marc Portier wrote:
David Crossley wrote:
Please don't. Cocoon is the name
+1, same opinion here
the brand is strong enough, and can cope with major release numbers that
indicate we had serious new insights
No, the brand is not strong.
Look around among people that have *not* used C
Il giorno 06/dic/05, alle ore 01:24, David Crossley ha scritto:
I started to draft here what the next-generation Cocoon should be. I
dubbed it "Racoon" (with Andrew's permission) as I really think that
from a marketing point of view, a new name should be used so that
people
don't see it as a
--- Marc Portier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
>
>
> David Crossley wrote:
> > Sylvain Wallez wrote:
> >
> >>Peter Hunsberger wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Perhaps an area on the Wiki to discuss straw man
> features and
> >>>requirements for a 3.0 release would be a good
> thing?
> >>
> >>See
>
ht
Peter Hunsberger wrote:
I think it makes some sense to start talking about what a 3.0 might
look like. Two main reason for that:
First, it is good to always have a long term architectural direction
in front of you. It is one of the ways to help keep the community
focused on what they are do
David Crossley wrote:
> Sylvain Wallez wrote:
>
>>Peter Hunsberger wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Perhaps an area on the Wiki to discuss straw man features and
>>>requirements for a 3.0 release would be a good thing?
>>
>>See http://cocoon.zones.apache.org/daisy/test/g1/792.html (BTW, how do
>>we create a
Gianugo Rabellino wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
> > Gianugo Rabellino wrote:
> > > Daniel Fagerstrom wrote:
> > >
> > > > It is so easy to ditch other peoples work, isn't it?
> > >
> > > Oh, come on Daniel, you're taking this personally.
> >
> > I reckon that Daniel has hit on many important issue
Sylvain Wallez wrote:
> Peter Hunsberger wrote:
>
>
>
> >Perhaps an area on the Wiki to discuss straw man features and
> >requirements for a 3.0 release would be a good thing?
>
> See http://cocoon.zones.apache.org/daisy/test/g1/792.html (BTW, how do
> we create a new book in Daisy?)
>
> I st
On Mon, 2005-12-05 at 17:15 +0100, Sylvain Wallez wrote:
> Peter Hunsberger wrote:
>
>
>
> > Perhaps an area on the Wiki to discuss straw man features and
> > requirements for a 3.0 release would be a good thing?
>
> See http://cocoon.zones.apache.org/daisy/test/g1/792.html (BTW, how do
> we c
Peter Hunsberger wrote:
Perhaps an area on the Wiki to discuss straw man features and
requirements for a 3.0 release would be a good thing?
See http://cocoon.zones.apache.org/daisy/test/g1/792.html (BTW, how do
we create a new book in Daisy?)
I started to draft here what the next-generati
On 12/4/05, Ralph Goers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Sylvain Wallez wrote:
>
> > To last for a long time, a company/community has to make sure it has
> > some customers/users. The new features in 2.2, if you look at them are
> > more about managing complexity than bringing real new stuff. Is it
> >
On 12/5/05, David Crossley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Gianugo Rabellino wrote:
> > Daniel Fagerstrom wrote:
> >
> > > It is so easy to ditch other peoples work, isn't it?
> >
> > Oh, come on Daniel, you're taking this personally.
>
> I reckon that Daniel has hit on many important issues
> related
Gianugo Rabellino wrote:
Well, I think I do know at least something that blocks will buy us.
But again, what I'm questioning is whether the problems that blocks
solve are self-inflicted pains (love that wording, Berin) or real
problems that have a direct impact on users. So far what I'm see
Sylvain Wallez wrote:
> To last for a long time, a company/community has to make sure it has
> some customers/users. The new features in 2.2, if you look at them are
> more about managing complexity than bringing real new stuff. Is it
> something that will bring lots of new users? I don't think
Gianugo Rabellino wrote:
> Daniel Fagerstrom wrote:
>
> > It is so easy to ditch other peoples work, isn't it?
>
> Oh, come on Daniel, you're taking this personally.
I reckon that Daniel has hit on many important issues
related to community-building. If people are not careful
then we are going to
Daniel Fagerstrom wrote:
How can you be so certain that we would getting less complicated if we
started from scratch? It might be complicated because it does
something complicated. As long as you don't understand the internals
you cannot really know, can you?
I do. And you don't know how man
On 12/4/05, Daniel Fagerstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Gianugo Rabellino wrote:
>
> >Daniel,
> >
> >thank you for taking the time to write this. I understand your
> >frustration, since the behaviour you're describing in your email has
> >clearly been a recurring pattern lately on [EMAIL PROTECT
Gianugo Rabellino wrote:
Daniel,
thank you for taking the time to write this. I understand your
frustration, since the behaviour you're describing in your email has
clearly been a recurring pattern lately on [EMAIL PROTECTED] However, I'd
like to ask you to try and see beyond what happened,
So
Sylvain Wallez wrote:
To last for a long time, a company/community has to make sure it has
some customers/users. The new features in 2.2, if you look at them are
more about managing complexity than bringing real new stuff. Is it
something that will bring lots of new users? I don't think so.
Daniel,
thank you for taking the time to write this. I understand your
frustration, since the behaviour you're describing in your email has
clearly been a recurring pattern lately on [EMAIL PROTECTED] However, I'd
like to ask you to try and see beyond what happened, asking yourself
why we have bee
Sylvain Wallez wrote:
Daniel Fagerstrom wrote:
Start a whiteboard prototype if you feel like it, but to me it seem
quite risky to try to rewrite everything from scratch, although I
have felt the urge myself countless time while struggling with the
messy internals. But before you go ahead a
Daniel Fagerstrom wrote:
Start a whiteboard prototype if you feel like it, but to me it seem
quite risky to try to rewrite everything from scratch, although I have
felt the urge myself countless time while struggling with the messy
internals. But before you go ahead and rewrite everything fro
Daniel Fagerstrom wrote:
The main problem with our community, IMO, is the lack of focus and
persistance. We have so many great ideas, but as large parts of the
community always are running towards the next shiny thing and have very
little interest in polishing the design, contracts and implemen
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