Re: Flash finally dead?

Authorwate Too. It was the tool that i had used for 5 years Regards, Jaydeep Tank On 6 March 2013 21:22, Carlos Cruz wrote: > Just be glad Flex is out of Adobe's hands, I just wish the same fate would > happen to Flash!! I had predicted the demise of all Macromedia products in > the hands of Ad

Re: Flash finally dead?

In a thread or another email list? Either way folks don't seem to take the time to figure out a "more appropriate" communication mechanism. Otherwise they would find an old thread to pick up on. On 3/6/13 4:40 PM, "Joe Kryzak" wrote: > > Alex, > > We could keep track of rumors and general

RE: Apache Flex 4.91 compatibility with ILOG Elixir Enterprise 3.5

I work for IBM, although I don't speak for the company. I believe folks from the ILOG team are also subscribed to this list. I will wait for them to respond. If we don't hear anything soon, I will try to see how best I can find out the answers for you. I use the ILOG components in my projects a

Re: Flash finally dead?

Alex, We could keep track of rumors and general complaints on an opinion thread, can't we?. I doubt the resistance of another thread would keep people from complaining. It's a possibility that an 'opinion' email might invite more opinions, whereas 'dev' has a certain resistance to opinions. '

Re: Flash finally dead?

Im just happy to see that people still speak lingo and remember when they switched to verbose style syntax. I keep getting the cross eyed confused looked when i say 'remember director and shockwave?' Flash player isn't going away, lol. Look at ie6... We've TRIED to kill it and the dang thing i

RE: Apache Flex 4.91 compatibility with ILOG Elixir Enterprise 3.5

If anyone at Apache Flex or Apache has any contacts with IBM (they support a couple other open source projects)...I am sure they bought Ilog for all the other parts, not the elixir (flex) part...plus Flash is not in with the hip crowd these days... IMHO, few things could give a boost to Apache Fle

Re: UML diagrams for the Flex projects in Flower Dev Center ...

Cristian, this workflow sounds pretty good to me. Sorry for not responding earlier. Mike, thanks for bringing this discussion back up. I was thinking about this tool after reading the mid-air collisions between your code and Erik's code a couple of days ago. Since you two are actively working on

RE: Flash finally dead?

I started with Director back in 1995 for 2 years, when I discovered "Future Splash" on MSN, I realized its lightweight would one day make the heavy Director Shockwave obsolete. The I saw Splash became Flash, and its last name went from Macromedia to Adobe. Rest are history. I have yet to be conv

Re: UML diagrams for the Flex projects in Flower Dev Center ...

BUMP! GROUP! Honestly guys and girls, I have no idea why this list is not interested in this application. They are looking for examples and such of the Flex framework and they have let this go unanswered for weeks. I think this project is amazing. Its just a bit over my head at the moment

RE: Flash finally dead?

Really Director still going? Ok that's interesting On Mar 6, 2013 9:28 PM, "Gordon Smith" wrote: > Adobe can't kill Flash without "breaking the web" since the web has so > much Flash content. I would expect it to be around for the indefinite > future. I worked on Director for 10 years and left it

Re: [FalconJx] MXML output - FlexJS

Quoting Alex Harui : Last I looked, you were still using the threads to get the bytes from each compilation unit, which is good. Yesterday, I started in on CSS support in FlexJS and realized that the CSS support in Falcon also uses the BURM. Are you going to re-write that and any other sub-co

Re: ASC 2.0 bugbase

Does anyone at Adobe know what the status on (1) is now that ASC 2.0 has shipped. Thanks, --Dasa On Jan 16, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Gordon Smith wrote: > Thanks. There may be a distinction between > > (1) bug fixes that were made between the time when new compiler was branched > for Apache and wh

Re: [FalconJx] MXML output - FlexJS

Last I looked, you were still using the threads to get the bytes from each compilation unit, which is good. Yesterday, I started in on CSS support in FlexJS and realized that the CSS support in Falcon also uses the BURM. Are you going to re-write that and any other sub-compilers as well (resource

RE: Flash finally dead?

Adobe can't kill Flash without "breaking the web" since the web has so much Flash content. I would expect it to be around for the indefinite future. I worked on Director for 10 years and left it 12 years ago because enthusiasm for it was waning, but it's still going. - Gordon

Re: [FalconJx] MXML output - FlexJS

Alex, The business logic side of things I am sure is pretty close to what you have in FalconJS. When Erik finishes the MXML, there is no reason to even think about FalconJS anymore. The jx framework is completly capable of creating any type of output we want and also extends itself to oth

Re: Flash finally dead?

On 3/6/13 10:57 AM, "Joe Kryzak" wrote: > I believe this has been brought up before, but why are these discussions > accepted as part of 'dev'? I know we shouldn't have these conversations on dev, but I let it go because it helps me keep track of what kinds of rumors are out there. > That bei

Apache Flex 4.91 compatibility with ILOG Elixir Enterprise 3.5

Has anyone successfully configured the ILOG Elixir Enterprise 3.5 (Patch 7) Calendar Component to build with Apache Flex 4.91? My AIR application builds without error but doesn’t launch, exhibiting *ReferenceError: **Error #1065: Variable com.ibm.ilog.elixir.utils::LicenseHandler is not defined. *a

Re: [FalconJx] MXML output - FlexJS

OK. I'm still hoping to be able to take a closer look at what you guys are doing in the next couple of weeks. On 3/6/13 11:57 AM, "Michael Schmalle" wrote: > I'm just replying for the sake of completeness. > > All I said today was I found an original impl basically reusing the > logic you had

Re: [FalconJx] MXML output - FlexJS

I'm just replying for the sake of completeness. All I said today was I found an original impl basically reusing the logic you had in FalconJS. Erik is working on the MXML, so I am not even getting close to anybody thinking I am trying to step on feet, I should have just said nothing and d

Re: [FalconJx] MXML output - FlexJS

Trying to catch up on this thread. Instead of replying to individual messages let me see if I can summarize my input here: The MXML code in Falcon is pretty much doing a tree walk, so I don't quite get why it can't be mostly re-used. The mainstream Flex framework has code that understands the da

Re: Flash and HTML 5

I'm curious if they could polyfill the canvas element on those 18% of browsers that don't support it using Flash. Kevin N. On 3/6/13 2:21 PM, Angelo Anolin wrote: Nice site. flashvhtml.com In summary, they're both just tools and taking sides with technology gets you nowhere fast.

[jira] [Created] (FLEX-33420) poppedViewReturnedObject destroyed too early

Morten Gorm Madsen created FLEX-33420: - Summary: poppedViewReturnedObject destroyed too early Key: FLEX-33420 URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/FLEX-33420 Project: Apache Flex Is

Flash and HTML 5

Nice site. flashvhtml.com In summary, they're both just tools and taking sides with technology gets you nowhere fast.

Re: [FalconJx] MXML output - FlexJS

Well that's positive news. My experience came from trying to understand what Alex was doing in the rats nest code of FalconJS. So if its a lot easier than I fist imagined that is great then. Mike Quoting Erik de Bruin : Stepping through the current FlexJS MXML with "my" parser, I am co

Re: [FalconJx] MXML output - FlexJS

Stepping through the current FlexJS MXML with "my" parser, I am confidant that I can create the needed data structures using the setup that is currently in the code. If I'm somehow mistaken, we'll know soon enough. EdB On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Michael Schmalle wrote: > No, > > I said th

Re: [FalconJx] MXML output - FlexJS

Anyways, I will make this clear now so there is no confusion, I found a prototype that created some of this stuff, this is the only reason I brought it up. I was confused why you were creating MXML(answered now). I will just keep my nose elsewhere. :) Mike Quoting Michael Schmalle : No,

Re: [FalconJx] MXML output - FlexJS

No, I said there is a huge curve to what you are about to try and produce with data structures. I'm asking have you thought about how your are going to create them... ? His data structures are pretty freaking abstract and you can't just loop through the DOM and create them. Mike Quotin

Re: [FalconJx] MXML output - FlexJS

Mike, Aren't we crossing streams now? My efforts are aimed at creating FlexJS output and my code is close to making that happen. If I understand your last correctly, you are suggesting a different approach? EdB On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 7:54 PM, Michael Schmalle wrote: > Alex, > > Did you happen

Re: Flash finally dead?

I believe this has been brought up before, but why are these discussions accepted as part of 'dev'? Most of these conversations end up over time to be the Mark Twain "Reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated" type. Given the unique controversial nature of flash, should we have a 'discus

[FalconJx] MXML output - FlexJS

Erik, I'm just looking at some of the things you have been working on. I'm a bit confused... My understanding was the MXML emitters needed to produce relevant AS code of FlexJS IE Alex's data structures. Am I missing something obvious here that was discussed between you and Alex? When I cr

Re: [FalconJx] MXML output - FlexJS

> I understand what you are saying but that is what the walker is for because > most output is never going to translate to the existing structure of what > will be output as the case with FlexJS and it's data structures. In AS we > have a 1 to 1 relationship with the AST to source code. FlexJS and

Re: [FalconJx] MXML output - FlexJS

Alex, Did you happen to read Gordon's comments on https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/MXML+Data+Spec At the end of Jan? I'm seriously thinking about giving an initial impl for FalconJx right now and your data structures. I just found the 1400 line prototype emitter/walker I ma

Re: [FalconJx] MXML output - FlexJS

Hmm. I understand what you are saying but that is what the walker is for because most output is never going to translate to the existing structure of what will be output as the case with FlexJS and it's data structures. In AS we have a 1 to 1 relationship with the AST to source code. I

RE: [Falcon] Token stream recording

Quoting Gordon Smith : I don't think it would be hard to store the entire token stream that produced a tree, but it sounds like you want to somehow keep track of what tokens produced what node, which is more complicated and probably overkill. We chose not to store tokens in order to minimi

RE: [Falcon] Token stream recording

I don't think it would be hard to store the entire token stream that produced a tree, but it sounds like you want to somehow keep track of what tokens produced what node, which is more complicated and probably overkill. We chose not to store tokens in order to minimize memory. What information

Re: Flash finally dead?

It is highly doubtful that Adobe will donate Flash Player. A majority of the product is based around 3rd party libraries and licensed software that they don't control. If they do end up donating it, it will look more like the project they open-sourced with Mozilla than what Flash Player looks lik

Re: [FalconJx] MXML output - FlexJS

Mike, The idea is to create the same "input == output" tests for MXML as you did for AS, to check if the emitters are handling all input correctly. Inheriting from those verifiably 'correct' MXML emitters I will create JS output, both for FlexJS and VanillaSDK (initially, but others might be added

Re: [FalconJx] Future work cleaning up

All the info you need is probably here: FlexJSTestBase.java; line 17. And it's completely my bad, although I did annotate it, so it wasn't an error of ignorance... more of laziness. Sorry I didn't think of this when we discussed it before. EdB On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 7:05 PM, Michael Schmalle

Re: Flash finally dead?

The term trolling is a strange idea of mostly trolling people. We are living in a free world. If you don't like what you read- just don't read it. > Does Bashir al Assad has a forum? Must... Not... Feed... Troll... EdB --- Als

Re: Flash finally dead?

A weird, out of context political "statement" on a public list that's meant for the discussion of software development for a specific open source project... that's trolling in my book. Now, be on topic or be gone. Darn, now I've gone and gave it lunch :-( EdB On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 7:11 PM, Li

Re: [FalconJx] Future work cleaning up

Erik, I think I found the cause of this error. How do you have the FlexJS.swc setup? I am not developing that so I don't build any swc. In fact I know this is why these 4 tests are failing because there are no classes for the; xmlns:basic="library://ns.apache.org/flexjs/basic"> namespa

Re: Really weird error

Hi, > I did find it interesting that it has the full file path of the machine that > compiled it though… That's a know issue (and has been the case with previous Adobe Flex SDKs). Justin

Re: Really weird error

I figured out the problem. I think I was loading a module that was compiled with a different Flex SDK. I've been switching back and forth between different SDKs a lot lately… ;-) I did find it interesting that it has the full file path of the machine that compiled it though… On Mar 6, 2013, at

Re: Flash finally dead?

Trying not to feed it, but maybe trollpinging the summit: Adobe just released a new version of Director so we get to life, we live, we die and we reincarnate ... but we are still allowed to use the right tool for the right need. > On 3/6/2013 12:39 PM, Paul Hastings wrote: >> On 3/6/2013

Re: Flash finally dead?

Hi, A naive question/observation could be: if Adobe ever drops Flash Player support (and all the Flash ecosystem), will they contribute the source or will it end the Flash side of Flex (but opening the newly fresh path to JS) ? (I know that there is no answer yet, and my question is totally bia

Re: Flash finally dead?

On 3/6/2013 12:39 PM, Paul Hastings wrote: On 3/6/2013 10:52 PM, Carlos Cruz wrote: 5. Coldfusion (will this be the next one on the Adobe guillotine) nope, supposedly doing better than ever. "reinvigorated" might be a good description. ColdFusion has been dead a lot longer than Flash; in

Re: Flash finally dead?

On 3/6/2013 10:52 PM, Carlos Cruz wrote: 5. Coldfusion (will this be the next one on the Adobe guillotine) nope, supposedly doing better than ever. "reinvigorated" might be a good description.

Re: [FalconJx] binary operator parenthesis

I'm going to commit my changes; I ignored 3 unit tests that I will get back to. I am not decided on how String literals are handled when a member field resolves to a String type. I have normal string concatenation not being parened IE "foo" + "bar" + "baz". I know how to fix it, just going

Re: Really weird error

Which SWF is supposed to supply that class? On 3/6/13 5:41 AM, "Harbs" wrote: > I'm trying to compile an app with modules against 4.9.0 and I get the > following error: (and my name is not Justin McleanŠ) ;-) > > VerifyError: Error #1014: Class mx.effects::CompositeEffect could not be > found.

RE: Flash finally dead?

I was being facetious!! I was not venting against anyone, for goodness sake I'm still using Adobe Flex/Flash Builder 4.6 (not sure of the name myself)!! I just find these discussions... "funny" and I was simply saying; if you like Flex, use Flex!! if you like something else or you think Flex is de

Re: Flash finally dead?

> Does Bashir al Assad has a forum? Must... Not... Feed... Troll... EdB -- Ix Multimedia Software Jan Luykenstraat 27 3521 VB Utrecht T. 06-51952295 I. www.ixsoftware.nl

Re: [FalconJx] binary operator parenthesis

Heh, I wouldn't say awesome but I'm beginning to like this visitor framework more every day because this fix wasn't intrusive at all. This proves we have it working right; Here is a test that is just plain weird a = (a + b) - c + d * e; It now produces; a = (((a + b) - c) + (d * e)) Notic

AW: Flash finally dead?

Does Bashir al Assad has a forum? -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Erik de Bruin [mailto:e...@ixsoftware.nl] Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. März 2013 17:13 An: dev@flex.apache.org Betreff: Re: Flash finally dead? > On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Carlos Cruz wrote: >> ...Now the Adobe peons are r

Re: [FalconJx] binary operator parenthesis

> You're not think 5th dimensionally here; I rarely venture in such an integer state of mind. I'm more of a fractal kinda guy :-) > Currently without fixing this bug a use has the expression statement of; > > var a = ((a + b) - (c + d)) * e; > > They use the compiler, it checks out fine, FalconJx

Re: [FalconJx] binary operator parenthesis

Quoting Erik de Bruin : Agreed (on the 'simple' fix). A thought: isn't doing this in Jx not somewhat over the top? I mean, if you are going to 'calculate' the parenthesis somehow, you might be fixing the user's code - after all, the user can put them in however he likes... Isn't there a way fo

Re: Flash finally dead?

> On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Carlos Cruz wrote: >> ...Now the Adobe peons are receiving there marching orders... >> ...Have no doubts, they are only tools to get a piece of what >> you have in your handbag or wallet!!!... > ... >> THANK YOU!! to all who are championing and working hard on th

Re: [FalconJx] binary operator parenthesis

Erik, You're not think 5th dimensionally here; Currently without fixing this bug a use has the expression statement of; var a = ((a + b) - (c + d)) * e; They use the compiler, it checks out fine, FalconJx is currently rendering to JavaScript that will get executed; var a = a + b - c + d *

Re: [FalconJx] binary operator parenthesis

Agreed (on the 'simple' fix). A thought: isn't doing this in Jx not somewhat over the top? I mean, if you are going to 'calculate' the parenthesis somehow, you might be fixing the user's code - after all, the user can put them in however he likes... Isn't there a way for the parenthesis to be (and

Re: Flash finally dead?

On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Carlos Cruz wrote: > ...Now the Adobe peons are receiving there marching orders... > ...Have no doubts, they are only tools to get a piece of what > you have in your handbag or wallet!!!... ... > THANK YOU!! to all who are championing and working hard on the Flex >

RE: Flash finally dead?

Just be glad Flex is out of Adobe's hands, I just wish the same fate would happen to Flash!! I had predicted the demise of all Macromedia products in the hands of Adobe, not because I'm extra smart (I'm not!!), just my opinion big multi-dimensional companies which are good at managing money but hor

[Falcon] Token stream recording

Hi, Gordon this is aimed at you. Do you see any way or know of any way to allow the parser or some type of strategy to record all tokens when parsing? Would you have any guidance on how to implement this if possible? Is there any way to plug into the current repairing token stream to save

Re: [FalconJx] binary operator parenthesis

Don't worry about this one. When I fix this, I'm just going to have to get every test working again before I commit. I have time since this is a breaking bug that will render complex binary expressions useless as it stands. What I plan on doing is the most simple fix. Since I know that the

Re: [FalconJx] binary operator parenthesis

Mike, Sure, no problem. I'm not planning any work on Jx the next couple of days, so if you figure something in that time, go ahead and implement. Also, if you need help fixing tests, I don't mind, so feel free to ask. EdB On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 4:22 PM, Michael Schmalle wrote: > > Erik, > > N

[FalconJx] binary operator parenthesis

Erik, Now that I'm getting back into the core framework again I am wishing that I would have taken care of a bug that I knew about. There is a serious problem that has to be fixed. Since we don't save tokens from the parser, a Binary AST tree knows nothing about it's order of operations

RE: Falcon and MXML

Hi, Same here! Thanks Gordon for all the energy and commitment to the project. Rgs, Sugan Naicker South Africa -Original Message- From: Roland Zwaga [mailto:rol...@stackandheap.com] Sent: 06 March 2013 03:22 PM To: dev@flex.apache.org Subject: Re: Falcon and MXML Thank you so much fo

Re: Falcon and MXML

Thank you so much for all your great work, Gordon! And wonderful to hear you'll stay on board to perfect your work! On 6 March 2013 11:12, Carlos Rovira wrote: > Gordon, > > it's a shame that Adobe makes this change. > > But I'm happy that you stay with us as you can. Many thanks for your > comm

RE: Flash finally dead?

Believe me, already invested money is never an argument for shareholders. The next money is the important thing. No matter what they did yesterday :-). As president you can also look in the right directions where the flowers grow. There is no need to look backwards or in other directions then th

Re: Spark Tree

I interested in donating. 2013/3/5 Harbs > Alternately, Alexey, would you be interested in donating your > implementation? > >

RE: Flash finally dead?

Hi Erik, Well said! Rgs, Sugan -Original Message- From: Erik de Bruin [mailto:e...@ixsoftware.nl] Sent: 06 March 2013 01:04 PM To: dev@flex.apache.org Subject: Re: Flash finally dead? There are a couple of sub-projects going on that will 'relieve' Apache Flex from the bonds of the Fla

Re: Flash finally dead?

I never respond to threads like this but... Flash was dead 2 years ago, if anybody has been reading my rants in the last two years, you would know I have said this. Flex was a framework that tied everything together from an IDE to deployment. What all web technologies have is a language, com

Re: Flash finally dead?

There are a couple of sub-projects going on that will 'relieve' Apache Flex from the bonds of the Flash Player, whether it continues to exist or not (my guess is: there is too much money invested - not only by Adobe - for it to go soon and go quietly, you're reading too much into that blog post).

Re: Flash finally dead?

cobol is dead! NOT really... On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 6:50 PM, Carlos Rovira wrote: > AIR continues in the scope of Adobe, so no worries...for now... > > 2013/3/6 Frédéric THOMAS > > > From what sayed Thibault at the com 26 on http://www.bytearray.org/?p=** > > 5197

Re: Flash finally dead?

AIR continues in the scope of Adobe, so no worries...for now... 2013/3/6 Frédéric THOMAS > From what sayed Thibault at the com 26 on http://www.bytearray.org/?p=** > 5197 Air going to continue for support > new ios and android OSes > > -Message d'origine---

Re: Flash finally dead?

From what sayed Thibault at the com 26 on http://www.bytearray.org/?p=5197 Air going to continue for support new ios and android OSes -Message d'origine- From: Edouard Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 11:39 AM To: dev@flex.apache.org Subject: Re: Flash finally dead? just one question F

Re: Flash finally dead?

just one question For me, I didn't use Flex for web application because of Flash but i used it for Mobile App with the performance of fxg and the capabilities of Adobe air wich allow to make some native extension etc... What about that, if Flash (and adobe Air ?) is die, how to target mobile ? The

Re: Flash finally dead?

Really nothing disruptive, but as you master a technology and have resources that make you accomplish many tasks you would want to reuse as many as you can. Flex is a great development platform nowadays. GWT, JavaFX, Dart seems to be very good as well in its own flavor. But all people here loves Fl

Re: Flash finally dead?

@Carlos There is no such JS library. But there is stuff like GWT, Dart ShartKit So if Flex turns out to be another JS cross compiler What would be the benefit of Flex over the above ? That s what i m asking myself. I dont see none. 2013/3/6 Carlos Rovira > Hi Alain, please can you point me

Re: [DRAFT] March Board Report

Thanks Alex for the GIT ticket inclusion, all looks good. 2013/3/6 Nicholas Kwiatkowski > +1 Looks good. > > On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 6:44 PM, Alex Harui wrote: > > > OK, here is round 2 incorporating everyone's feedback: > > > > - > > Apache Flex is an application framework for ea

Re: Flash finally dead?

Hi Alain, please can you point me to libraries/frameworks/plataforms in HTML5/JS that provide us with such benefits? OOP and XML layout declaration? Thanks in advance 2013/3/6 Alain Ekambi > @Carlos > I agree > > But at some poin we will need more then the OOP/MXML argument. > There are severa

Re: Falcon and MXML

Gordon, it's a shame that Adobe makes this change. But I'm happy that you stay with us as you can. Many thanks for your commitment and still want to make this happen in your own time. 2013/3/5 Jonathan Campos > On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 12:45 PM, Gordon Smith wrote: > > > I'll continue reading

Re: Spark Tree

Hi, maybe a bit late to this thread, but I looked partially to the proposed tree components and I want to share my 2ctns. * In terms of performance and resources, it seems at first sight like List based component seems to be a better direction than DataGrid, isn't it?. * Mobile should be take int

Re: Flash finally dead?

@Carlos I agree But at some poin we will need more then the OOP/MXML argument. There are several libaries out there providing the same and compiling down to JS. Minus the overhead to add ActionScript to the project. 2013/3/6 Carlos Rovira > In what concerns us, the important thing is to kee

Re: Flash finally dead?

In what concerns us, the important thing is to keep the benefits of Flex (OOP, MXML, ...) as this produces output to Flash and HTML / JS. I think in older applications will have to keep running in Flash and the new framework will have the potential for multiple outputs. IMHO, what keeps us in this

Re: Flash finally dead?

And it looks like Adobe has something in the pipeline allready http://topcoat.io/ 2013/3/6 aYo ~ > Je vous écoutez Alain mais Thibaut I think has to do this by virtue of his > job. Standard adobe practice, take the brightest and push them to projects > that need evangelizing > On Mar 6, 2013

Re: Flash finally dead?

Je vous écoutez Alain mais Thibaut I think has to do this by virtue of his job. Standard adobe practice, take the brightest and push them to projects that need evangelizing On Mar 6, 2013 8:55 AM, "Alain Ekambi" wrote: > It s when you see the core Flash engineer praising JavaScript/HTML then you

Re: Flash finally dead?

Perhaps if it was his own free will causing him to praise Javascript rather than his new job description. My friend likes to encourage other people that flash is dying, because then he gets more business for his studio when there are fewer developers to compete with. brought to you by the letters