[Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Hello A Language Summit will be held in Chicago the day before Pycon. http://us.pycon.org/2009/about/summits/language/ I am preparing a survey to get some feedback from the community before the summit, where I will try to summarize the status, and the possible paths we can take to make things bet

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Hello Tarek, I think "apt, yum, etc" would be also used for packaging/distributing apps. On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 8:06 PM, Tarek Ziadé wrote: > Hello > > A Language Summit will be held in Chicago the day before Pycon. > http://us.pycon.org/2009/about/summits/language/ > > I am preparing a survey

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Tarek Ziadé wrote: I am working on the survey here : http://wiki.python.org/moin/Packaging%20Survey One of the survey questions asks: Would you like to see Python's Distutils package provide an uninstall command that removes just the files installed, and cleanup the .pth, even if it does

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 5:29 PM, Akira Kitada wrote: > Hello Tarek, > > I think "apt, yum, etc" would be also used for packaging/distributing apps. > There is already a command that let you create a rpm package (bdist_rpm) out of a python package, There were also a bdist_deb project but it never

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 6:56 PM, Mark Sienkiewicz wrote: > Tarek Ziadé wrote: >> >> I am working on the survey here : >> http://wiki.python.org/moin/Packaging%20Survey >> >> > > One of the survey questions asks: > >> Would you like to see Python's Distutils package provide an uninstall >> command

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Jan 27, 2009, at 15:00 PM, Tarek Ziadé wrote: There were also a bdist_deb project but it never made it to distutils, also for Debian there's a policy on how to work with python packages : http://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/python-policy/ Last, this mailing list had a lot of thre

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 11:18 PM, zooko wrote: >> So I don't have (I think no one does at this point) any clear view of what >> could be done in this area. > > I don't understand what are the potential problems, but so far I've been > happy using stdeb to produce .deb's from my Python sdists. I g

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

zooko wrote: > On Jan 27, 2009, at 15:00 PM, Tarek Ziadé wrote: > >> There were also a bdist_deb project but it never made it to >> distutils, also for Debian there's a policy on how to work with >> python packages : >> http://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/python-policy/ >> >> Last, this mai

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 11:45 AM, David Cournapeau wrote: > It is a solved problem: autoconf does it well, and has all the required > features, So does it mean that having Distutils generate some kind of "configure.in" template that could be used by autoconf could be the right approach ?

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Tarek Ziadé wrote: > On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 11:45 AM, David Cournapeau > wrote: > >> It is a solved problem: autoconf does it well, and has all the required >> features, >> > > So does it mean that having Distutils generate some kind of > "configure.in" template that could > be used by au

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 12:05 PM, David Cournapeau wrote: > Tarek Ziadé wrote: >> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 11:45 AM, David Cournapeau >> wrote: >> >>> It is a solved problem: autoconf does it well, and has all the required >>> features, >>> >> >> So does it mean that having Distutils generate some

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Tarek Ziadé wrote: > On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 12:05 PM, David Cournapeau > wrote: > >> Tarek Ziadé wrote: >> >>> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 11:45 AM, David Cournapeau >>> wrote: >>> >>> It is a solved problem: autoconf does it well, and has all the required features, >>>

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 12:35 PM, David Cournapeau wrote: > What's the problem with man files for python developers ? I am not > saying that any developer is required to add a manpage, only that if > she/he does though, that should be marked as man. well, I do write some documentation for the com

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Tarek Ziadé writes: > Man files seem rather specific to Linux Hardly. Man pages have been part of every Unix-like operating system (which is to say, all major operating systems except one) since before Linus even discovered a C compiler. > unless we have some kind of script that would know how

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Tarek Ziadé writes: > >>> It is a solved problem: autoconf does it well, and has all the > >>> required features, > > Would you like to write down a detailed description of these > elements ? I second this. David has several times invoked “setuptools should do it like autoconf”, but that isn't

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 14:07, Barry Warsaw wrote: > In my ideal world, I would make a release by tagging my release in whatever > vcs I'm using, then I would tell cheeseshop, "hey I just released version > 3.1 and it is here" where "here" means whatever native vcs syntax points to > the revision

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Jan 28, 2009, at 5:45 AM, David Cournapeau wrote: This is not the right solution for distributions maintainers: it is a good tool for individual (it gives you uninstallation, etec...) but .deb packages produced by stddeb are not debian-compati

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Jan 28, 2009, at 2:27 AM, Tarek Ziadé wrote: For example, if my application has a log file, it is better under Debian to have it in /var/log/xxx In the meantime, for the same application, I don't want to bother under win32 about that, the log can leave inside the package for instance.

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Jan 28, 2009, at 3:45 AM, David Cournapeau wrote: I don't understand what are the potential problems, but so far I've been happy using stdeb to produce .deb's from my Python sdists. This is not the right solution for distributions maintainers: it is a good tool for individual (it gives y

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

In my opinion, bdist_rpm and the like are "nice hacks" at best and nothing more. Peoplo who love rigorous distribution or control freaks would probably prefer to bother packaging themselves and that will leads them to use apt, yum... On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 7:00 AM, Tarek Ziadé wrote: > On Tue, J

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

2009/1/28 Ben Finney : >> unless we have some kind of script that would know how to transform >> a reStructuredText file into a man file ? > > There is an experimental 'manpage' writer for docutils, that is > packaged for (at least) Debian [0]. It has a corresponding program, > 'rst2man' [1], for e

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 1:38 PM, Ben Finney wrote: > Tarek Ziadé writes: > >> >>> It is a solved problem: autoconf does it well, and has all the >> >>> required features, >> >> Would you like to write down a detailed description of these >> elements ? > > I second this. David has several times in

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 4:46 PM, Akira Kitada wrote: > In my opinion, bdist_rpm and the like are "nice hacks" at best > and nothing more. > Peoplo who love rigorous distribution or control freaks would probably > prefer to > bother packaging themselves and that will leads them to use apt, yum...

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 12:05, David Cournapeau wrote: > I meant that instead of installing almost everything indistinctly like > we do now with distutils/setuptools, we should have something like: > > python setup.py install --bindir=foodir --sbindir=bardir --mandir=mandir > I think this sh

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Akira Kitada wrote: In my opinion, bdist_rpm and the like are "nice hacks" at best and nothing more. Peoplo who love rigorous distribution or control freaks would probably prefer to bother packaging themselves and that will leads them to use apt, yum... I am both a control freak and love rigoro

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Yesterday I spoke to a couple of hackers who use my allmydata-tahoe project, which is packaged with setuptools. They complained about setuptools getting in their way, and I asked them each to name their top two complaints. The first hacker, David, said: David 1. He can't easily install e

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

2009/1/28 zooko : > Yesterday I spoke to a couple of hackers who use my allmydata-tahoe project, > which is packaged with setuptools. They complained about setuptools getting > in their way, and I asked them each to name their top two complaints. Please be aware that the Language Summit, and the

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 11:03 AM, zooko wrote: > David 2. entry_points doesn't work when the svn checkout is just in > PYTHONPATH or ".", and fails if there is a non-existent directory on his > PYTHONPATH. > Probably this is because the package isn't activated, and if it's not activated you can

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 5:05 AM, David Cournapeau < da...@ar.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp> wrote: > I meant that instead of installing almost everything indistinctly like > we do now with distutils/setuptools, we should have something like: > > python setup.py install --bindir=foodir --sbindir=bardir --man

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Hello Zooko On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 07:44:04AM -0700, zooko wrote: > On Jan 28, 2009, at 3:45 AM, David Cournapeau wrote: > >>> I don't understand what are the potential problems, but so far I've >>> been happy using stdeb to produce .deb's from my Python sdists. >> >> This is not the right solut

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Barry Warsaw wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Jan 28, 2009, at 5:45 AM, David Cournapeau wrote: > >> This is not the right solution for distributions maintainers: it is a >> good tool for individual (it gives you uninstallation, etec...) but .deb >> packages produced

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

zooko wrote: > On Jan 28, 2009, at 3:45 AM, David Cournapeau wrote: > >>> I don't understand what are the potential problems, but so far I've >>> been happy using stdeb to produce .deb's from my Python sdists. >> >> This is not the right solution for distributions maintainers: it is a >> good tool

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Le mercredi 28 janvier 2009 à 07:44 -0700, zooko a écrit : > 3. It would be okay for this process to be automated (or semi- > automated), but there's some flaw in the design of stdeb which means > it will never be able to do it right unless stdeb is rewritten with a > new design. This is the

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Le mercredi 28 janvier 2009 à 13:16 -0600, Ian Bicking a écrit : > As you mention, there would have to be some extension to pkg_resources > (or an equivalent library) to handle finding these files at runtime. > Getting a runtime in place is probably the harder thing, as it is more > intrusive for t

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Le mercredi 28 janvier 2009 à 08:07 -0500, Barry Warsaw a écrit : > I'd like to make a radical suggestion: upstream authors should never > have to worry about building distribution blobs. This is just silly. You don’t have to worry about the distribution’s internals, and what is specific to each

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Le mercredi 28 janvier 2009 à 21:18 -0500, david.l...@preisshare.net a écrit : > Sometimes it is easier under linux to get an operating system python > package (from debian for example) installed than it is to get a pure python > package... > > That seems very wrong to me. > > So I am agreein

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Jan 29, 2009, at 8:57 AM, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le mercredi 28 janvier 2009 à 08:07 -0500, Barry Warsaw a écrit : I'd like to make a radical suggestion: upstream authors should never have to worry about building distribution blobs. This is j

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 15:35, Barry Warsaw wrote: > That's not what I'm saying. What I'm really saying is that I don't want to > have to run 5 different setup.py commands every time I do a release in order > to upload all the possible distribution formats that my users may want. Well, you are g

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Lennart Regebro wrote: On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 15:35, Barry Warsaw wrote: That's not what I'm saying. What I'm really saying is that I don't want to have to run 5 different setup.py commands every time I do a release in order to upload all the possible distribution formats that my users may wa

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Thu, 29 Jan 2009 09:35:18 -0500, Barry Warsaw wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Jan 29, 2009, at 8:57 AM, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le mercredi 28 janvier 2009 à 08:07 -0500, Barry Warsaw a écrit : I'd like to make a radical suggestion: upstream authors should never hav

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 15:55, Eric Smith wrote: > Someone should, true. But it need not be the original author, who might not > have the ability to test (or even produce) every desirable distribution > format. Absolutely. But this is already the case, you don't have to make and upload any distri

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Jan 29, 2009, at 10:03 AM, Jean-Paul Calderone wrote: Barry, just have your buildbot do it for you - and not just when you do a release, but every time you commit. As a bonus, it can then install the packages and run your test suite and tell

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Jan 29, 2009, at 9:51 AM, Lennart Regebro wrote: On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 15:35, Barry Warsaw wrote: That's not what I'm saying. What I'm really saying is that I don't want to have to run 5 different setup.py commands every time I do a release

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Barry Warsaw wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Jan 29, 2009, at 10:03 AM, Jean-Paul Calderone wrote: Barry, just have your buildbot do it for you - and not just when you do a release, but every time you commit. As a bonus, it can then install the packages and run your te

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Barry Warsaw wrote: > On Jan 29, 2009, at 8:57 AM, Josselin Mouette wrote: > >> Le mercredi 28 janvier 2009 à 08:07 -0500, Barry Warsaw a écrit : >>> I'd like to make a radical suggestion: upstream authors should never >>> have to worry about building

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Jan 29, 2009, at 12:17 PM, Tres Seaver wrote: Barry Warsaw wrote: On Jan 29, 2009, at 8:57 AM, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le mercredi 28 janvier 2009 à 08:07 -0500, Barry Warsaw a écrit : I'd like to make a radical suggestion: upstream authors sh

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 16:49, Barry Warsaw wrote: > That's what users, continuous integration, and and bug reports are for! Yes, and if you have that, then you also have automatically generated packages, which you can upload to pypi. -- Lennart Regebro: Zope and Plone consulting. http://www.co

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 7:53 AM, Josselin Mouette wrote: > Le mercredi 28 janvier 2009 à 13:16 -0600, Ian Bicking a écrit : > > As you mention, there would have to be some extension to pkg_resources > > (or an equivalent library) to handle finding these files at runtime. > > Getting a runtime in

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 09:55:29AM -0500, Eric Smith wrote: > Lennart Regebro wrote: >> On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 15:35, Barry Warsaw wrote: >>> That's not what I'm saying. What I'm really saying is that I don't want to >>> have to run 5 different setup.py commands every time I do a release in orde

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 12:20:22PM -0500, Barry Warsaw wrote: > On Jan 29, 2009, at 12:17 PM, Tres Seaver wrote: > >> Barry Warsaw wrote: >>> On Jan 29, 2009, at 8:57 AM, Josselin Mouette wrote: >>> Le mercredi 28 janvier 2009 à 08:07 -0500, Barry Warsaw a écrit : > I'd like to make a radi

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Floris Bruynooghe writes: > In my ideal world python package developers would only ever have to > worry about uploading an sdist. +1 > If I am correct the only reason people started to go away from this > is because Windows users don't tend to have compilers installed. I think that may, indeed

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Josselin Mouette writes: > Le mercredi 28 janvier 2009 à 13:16 -0600, Ian Bicking a écrit : > > As you mention, there would have to be some extension to > > pkg_resources (or an equivalent library) to handle finding these > > files at runtime. Getting a runtime in place is probably the > > harder

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 10:51 PM, Ben Finney wrote: > Josselin Mouette writes: > >> Le mercredi 28 janvier 2009 à 13:16 -0600, Ian Bicking a écrit : >> > As you mention, there would have to be some extension to >> > pkg_resources (or an equivalent library) to handle finding these >> > files at ru

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Ben Finney wrote: > Josselin Mouette writes: > >> Le mercredi 28 janvier 2009 à 13:16 -0600, Ian Bicking a écrit : >>> As you mention, there would have to be some extension to >>> pkg_resources (or an equivalent library) to handle finding these >>> f

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 11:50 PM, Tres Seaver wrote: >> Perhaps 'setup_config.py'? Something that makes it clear that the >> configuration is intended for the setup and installation, *not* the >> running Python package. > > I would argue against making it a .py file at all: make it an INI file, >

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Tarek Ziadé writes: > On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 10:51 PM, Ben Finney > wrote: > > Perhaps 'setup_config.py'? Something that makes it clear that the > > configuration is intended for the setup and installation, *not* > > the running Python package. > > what about "metadata.py" (that can be used

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 11:54:38PM +0100, Tarek Ziadé wrote: > On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 11:50 PM, Tres Seaver wrote: > >> Perhaps 'setup_config.py'? Something that makes it clear that the > >> configuration is intended for the setup and installation, *not* the > >> running Python package. > > > > I

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 12:34 AM, Floris Bruynooghe wrote: >> setup.cfg could be used in that case. > > setup.cfg is a configuration file to be edited by developers. Going > to modify that at build time is guaranteed to result in unhappy people > at some stage I reckon. > right >> But having a

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Barry Warsaw wrote: I'd like to make a radical suggestion: upstream authors should never have to worry about building distribution blobs. In my ideal world, I would make a release by tagging my release in whatever vcs I'm using, then I would tell cheeseshop, "hey I just released version 3.1 a

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 01:21:12AM +0100, Tarek Ziadé wrote: > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 12:34 AM, Floris Bruynooghe > wrote: > > An argument against a generated .py file is that this won't work for > > single-module python distributions. But having a .cfg file or > > something next to the module/p

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

At 06:39 PM 1/30/2009 +, Floris Bruynooghe wrote: On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 01:21:12AM +0100, Tarek Ziadé wrote: > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 12:34 AM, Floris Bruynooghe > wrote: > > An argument against a generated .py file is that this won't work for > > single-module python distributions. But

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 7:39 PM, Floris Bruynooghe wrote: > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 01:21:12AM +0100, Tarek Ziadé wrote: >> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 12:34 AM, Floris Bruynooghe >> wrote: >> > An argument against a generated .py file is that this won't work for >> > single-module python distributio

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 12:39 PM, Floris Bruynooghe < floris.bruynoo...@gmail.com> wrote: > I imagine things like libdir, prefix, datadir, docdir and other things > copied from autoconf. Where the defaults would be something like: > > prefix = sys.prefix > libdir = sys.prefix/lib/pythonX.Y/site-p

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 08:35:07PM +0100, Tarek Ziadé wrote: > David Cournapeau has sent me a first draft of a document, you might > want to look at. > > http://wiki.python.org/moin/distutils-autoconf > > Might be a good basis for a common understanding Looks useful! Not sure where to comment o

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 02:36:43PM -0500, P.J. Eby wrote: > At 06:39 PM 1/30/2009 +, Floris Bruynooghe wrote: >> I imagine things like libdir, prefix, datadir, docdir and other things >> copied from autoconf. Where the defaults would be something like: >> >> prefix = sys.prefix >> libdir = sys

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 03:19:05PM -0600, Ian Bicking wrote: > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 12:39 PM, Floris Bruynooghe < > floris.bruynoo...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > I imagine things like libdir, prefix, datadir, docdir and other things > > copied from autoconf. Where the defaults would be something l

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

"P.J. Eby" writes: > At 06:39 PM 1/30/2009 +, Floris Bruynooghe wrote: > >I imagine things like libdir, prefix, datadir, docdir and other > >things copied from autoconf. Where the defaults would be something > >like: > > > >prefix = sys.prefix > >libdir = sys.prefix/lib/pythonX.Y/site-package

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 12:09 AM, Ben Finney wrote: > "P.J. Eby" writes: > >> At 06:39 PM 1/30/2009 +, Floris Bruynooghe wrote: >> >I imagine things like libdir, prefix, datadir, docdir and other >> >things copied from autoconf. Where the defaults would be something >> >like: >> > >> >prefix

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Ian Bicking writes: > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 12:39 PM, Floris Bruynooghe < > floris.bruynoo...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > I imagine things like libdir, prefix, datadir, docdir and other > > things copied from autoconf. Where the defaults would be something > > like: > > > > prefix = sys.prefix > >

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Tarek Ziadé writes: > On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 12:09 AM, Ben Finney > wrote: > > I imagine Floris meant what most hackers mean by "package", which > > is what Python perversely calls a "distribution". That may or may > > not be what setuptools calls a "project", I've never been clear on > > that

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Added to proposals page. http://wiki.python.org/moin/Distutils/Proposals On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 4:35 AM, Tarek Ziadé wrote: > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 7:39 PM, Floris Bruynooghe > wrote: >> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 01:21:12AM +0100, Tarek Ziadé wrote: >>> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 12:34 AM, Floris

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Ian Bicking wrote: > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 12:39 PM, Floris Bruynooghe > mailto:floris.bruynoo...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > I imagine things like libdir, prefix, datadir, docdir and other things > copied from autoconf. Where the defaults would be something like: > > prefix = sys.prefix

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Ben Finney wrote: > Ian Bicking writes: > >> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 12:39 PM, Floris Bruynooghe < >> floris.bruynoo...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> I imagine things like libdir, prefix, datadir, docdir and other >>> things copied from autoconf. Where th

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Tres Seaver wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > Ben Finney wrote: > >> Ian Bicking writes: >> >> >>> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 12:39 PM, Floris Bruynooghe < >>> floris.bruynoo...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> I imagine things like libdir, prefix, datadir, doc

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 12:32 AM, Ben Finney wrote: > Tarek Ziadé writes: > >> On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 12:09 AM, Ben Finney >> wrote: >> > I imagine Floris meant what most hackers mean by "package", which >> > is what Python perversely calls a "distribution". That may or may >> > not be what se

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Tarek Ziadé writes: > On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 12:32 AM, Ben Finney > wrote: > > Given the inertia on both sides of this terminological schism, and > > the fact that these concepts are not exactly things that an > > outsider would even expect to have to learn new terms for, I don't > > think it

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 11:02:36PM +, Floris Bruynooghe wrote: > Ok, that was supposed to read: > > prefix = sys.prefix > libdir = sys.prefix/lib/pythonX.Y/site-packages/pkgname > datadir = sys.prefix/share/mypackage > docdir = sys.prefix/share/doc/mypackage Just how many time will I get this

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

At 05:40 PM 1/31/2009 +0900, David Cournapeau wrote: Ian Bicking wrote: > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 12:39 PM, Floris Bruynooghe > I wouldn't want to use those. What goes in libdir, what goes in > datadir? I don't know, and frankly the distinctions start getting > really arbitrary. They are not a

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Thanks for the information, Josselin: On Jan 29, 2009, at 7:10 AM, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le mercredi 28 janvier 2009 à 07:44 -0700, zooko a écrit : 3. It would be okay for this process to be automated (or semi- automated), but there's some flaw in the design of stdeb which means it will n

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 10:37:56AM -0500, P.J. Eby wrote: > At 05:40 PM 1/31/2009 +0900, David Cournapeau wrote: >> But you mostly do not need to care, as a developer: .py files would be >> considered as data files, extensions as arch-dependent, etc... > > If this is true, then there's no need to d

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 David Cournapeau wrote: > Tres Seaver wrote: >> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- >> Hash: SHA1 >> >> Ben Finney wrote: >> >>> Ian Bicking writes: >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 12:39 PM, Floris Bruynooghe < floris.bruynoo...@gmail

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

David Cournapeau writes: > They are not arbitrary - they come from standard usage and have a > rationale, at least on Unix Agreed with this. > (datadir for arch independent, and libdir for arch dependent, to > simplify). I think you've not only simplified, you've done so in the wrong direction

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Tres Seaver writes: > Calling .py files "data" is another choice which seems (to me) > arbitrary: in my view, .py files, as well as others, are "software", > not data, and should be kept together with the other software (e.g., > templates used for rendering HTML) that they are distributed with.

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Ben Finney wrote: > > I think you've not only simplified, you've done so in the wrong > direction. I'd say instead that “datadir” is for *non-executable* > files, and “libdir” for executable. > It depends on what you mean by executable: it is obviously wrong when executable = have the executabl

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Floris Bruynooghe wrote: > On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 10:37:56AM -0500, P.J. Eby wrote: > >> At 05:40 PM 1/31/2009 +0900, David Cournapeau wrote: >> >>> But you mostly do not need to care, as a developer: .py files would be >>> considered as data files, extensions as arch-dependent, etc... >>>

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

P.J. Eby wrote: > At 05:40 PM 1/31/2009 +0900, David Cournapeau wrote: >> Ian Bicking wrote: >> > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 12:39 PM, Floris Bruynooghe >> > I wouldn't want to use those. What goes in libdir, what goes in >> > datadir? I don't know, and frankly the distinctions start getting >> > re

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

David Cournapeau writes: > Ben Finney wrote: > > I think you've not only simplified, you've done so in the wrong > > direction. I'd say instead that “datadir” is for > > *non-executable* files, and “libdir” for executable. > > It depends on what you mean by executable: it is obviously wrong > wh

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Ben Finney wrote: > > Yes, that's mainly my point. Whether a particular set of bits is > “architecture-dependent” or “architecture-independent” is rather > orthogonal, in Python, to whether it's an executable program library. > I don't think I have ever used the term executable program library

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Sun, Feb 01, 2009 at 02:32:06PM +0900, David Cournapeau wrote: > Floris Bruynooghe wrote: > > On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 10:37:56AM -0500, P.J. Eby wrote: > > > >> At 05:40 PM 1/31/2009 +0900, David Cournapeau wrote: > >> > >>> But you mostly do not need to care, as a developer: .py files w

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Sun, Feb 01, 2009 at 02:15:25PM +0900, David Cournapeau wrote: > The arch independent/dependent is much clearer IMHO, and is the > vocabulary used by the FHS, AFAIK. It is certainly the one used by the > configure script help: > > --libdir=DIR object code libraries [EPREFIX/lib] >

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Floris Bruynooghe wrote: > > Hmm fair enough, I must have missed that last time I looked at the > implementation of python-support and python-central. But both take > the burden of having to create a symlink farm because of this though. > And to be honest I think the motivation for this is support

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 2:40 AM, David Cournapeau < da...@ar.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp> wrote: > Ian Bicking wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 12:39 PM, Floris Bruynooghe > > mailto:floris.bruynoo...@gmail.com>> > wrote: > > > > I imagine things like libdir, prefix, datadir, docdir and other > thin

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Ian Bicking writes: > I'm just about ready to run screaming from this discussion... so no, > I want no part of determining what the "right" place for these files > is As I understand it, you are speaking from the perspective of a “developer”; that is, someone who intends to share the software wo

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Ian Bicking wrote: > On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 2:40 AM, David Cournapeau > mailto:da...@ar.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp>> > wrote: > > Ian Bicking wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 12:39 PM, Floris Bruynooghe > > >

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Ben Finney wrote: > Instead, you're being asked only to determine which category a file > belongs to; and those categories are (modulo some historical quirks, > due to David's obvious strong preference for the C-language-focussed > ‘autoconf’) mostly about the *purpose* of a file — precisely to all

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Hi David, I am learning a lot from this list On Mon, 02 Feb 2009 12:31:18 +0900, David Cournapeau >> > prefix = sys.prefix >> > libdir = sys.prefix/lib/pythonX.Y/site-packages/pkgname >> > datadir = sys.prefix/share/mypackage >> > docdir = sys.prefix/share/doc

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

2009/2/2 David Cournapeau : > I never said it was self-evident. And about the part of determining what > the right place is: the whole point is that you, as a developer, won't > have to care :) Only by changing the distutils implementation and adding > some options to the install command, but witho

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Le samedi 31 janvier 2009 à 14:10 +, Floris Bruynooghe a écrit : > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 11:02:36PM +, Floris Bruynooghe wrote: > > Ok, that was supposed to read: > > > > prefix = sys.prefix > > libdir = sys.prefix/lib/pythonX.Y/site-packages/pkgname > > datadir = sys.prefix/share/mypack

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

On Sun, Feb 01, 2009 at 03:29:52PM -0600, Ian Bicking wrote: > I'm just about ready to run screaming from this discussion... Thanks for not doing so > Sorry, I didn't describe what I meant. > > I imagine some file like package-data.conf, containing: > > data mypackage/templates/ > docs docs/_bu

Re: [Distutils] [Python Language Summit] Distutils / Packaging survey

Floris Bruynooghe wrote: > > I really like this idea. It seems to solve most of the issues. For > some reason my brain kept thinking that categorising data by it's > purpose is a really natural thing to do, but that seems not so. > In this proposal, I don't understand why tagging data/doc/etc

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