On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, Joe Ward wrote, in response to Robert Knodt's reply
to ecwebster:
> Good comment, Robert --
>
> Perhaps the unidentified writer is a frustrated product of "Non-mastery"
> Spelling Education
> and is intentionally (or unintentionally) showing the results.
>
> See BOLD items
Muriel Strand wrote (prompted by a semiliterate and pseudonymous troll)
> i question whether this jerk has assimilated Deming's basic message
> about
> respect for others. i was unable to find a reference for this book OUT
> OF
> CRISES.
I presume the poster meant "Out of the Crisis" (W.E.
i question whether this jerk has assimilated Deming's basic message
about
respect for others. i was unable to find a reference for this book OUT
OF
CRISES.
i would however recommend a book i read recently on this general topic
called
"The Economics of Trust" by John Whitney, from which i have pr
Robert Knodt writes in response to
the message at http://www.remarq.com
The Internet's Discussion Network (SEE BELOW)
---
Re: adjusting marks; W. Edwards
Deming
It would be nice if those sending
to the mailing list would clearly identify themselves. It would also be
It would be nice if those sending to the mailing list would clearly identify
themselves. It would also be nice if they used an e-mail address so
individuals might send them e-mail directly.
Thanks,
Dr. Robert C. Knodt
4949 Samish Way, #31
Bellingham, WA 98226
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dr. Deming Naive? You, sir, are misguided and unfortunately,
misinformed of the genius of the master Dr. Shewhart, and his
disiple and messenger to the latter half of the 20th century,
Dr. Deming.
Humans want to do a good job. Dr. Deming was pellucid on this
point. People and school fit nicely
> antioch (at one time and perhaps still) has had an open-file policy, such
that
> any student who didn't like the grade they got in a course could simply
remove
> from their file the record of that course (grade & credit). this does not
seem
> to have affected the school's reputation adversely,
On Fri, 24 Dec 1999 16:36:58 -0400, "Richard A. Beldin, Ph.D."
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I also want to add a bit about my predjudices. In my seventeen years in industry, I
> rarely heard of anyone getting praise for "trying". The emphasis was on "results",
- prejudices straight from a free-
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Muriel Strand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>a bit of empirical evidence i have to offer is about some negative effects of
>the use of grading, which i realize is the opposite of what you asked for. when
>i was a senior in high school, a chinese girl decided not to ta
Muriel Strand wrote:
> a bit of empirical evidence i have to offer is about some negative effects of
> the use of grading, which i realize is the opposite of what you asked for. when
> i was a senior in high school, a chinese girl decided not to take trig/analytic
> geometry because she was afr
i would definitely agree that grading and QC are fundamentally and
philosophically different in their level and kind of detail, and in the
correlation between numbers representing physical measurements and the desired
results.
however, if he recognized the essential difference in these 2 kinds of
recent references to grading on the curve don't quite jibe with my substantial
amount of experience being graded this way. in the (good) engineering schools i
attended in california, the instructor would typically try to write an exam of a
level of difficulty that would produce a good spread of t
based on recent negative experiences in econometrics, i would say that the
absolutely essential thing, whether computers are used or not, is for the
professor to provide *detailed* problem solutions for a representative and
ample variety of problems. the motivated student then had plenty of mater
a bit of empirical evidence i have to offer is about some negative effects of
the use of grading, which i realize is the opposite of what you asked for. when
i was a senior in high school, a chinese girl decided not to take trig/analytic
geometry because she was afraid it would ruin her gpa and a
Richard,
You posting should results in a number of opions regarding the evaluation of
teachers. I spend 30+ years in education as well as working in industry for
30 years. Much of my educational time was spend while working in industry
and teaching at a local university.
I have had many dis
I also want to add a bit about my predjudices. In my seventeen years in industry, I
rarely heard of anyone getting praise for "trying". The emphasis was on "results",
even at the cost of some formal policies. However, in the twelve years I spent in
academia, both before and after my industrial wor
Richard A. Beldin, Ph.D. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
: When my students asked me (as a class) to grade on a curve, I suggested the
: following alternative.
: "Place N chips in a can. Let them marked in the following way: 10%F, 20%D, 40%C,
: 20%B, 10%A. Let each student pick a chip and leave the cla
When my students asked me (as a class) to grade on a curve, I suggested the
following alternative.
"Place N chips in a can. Let them marked in the following way: 10%F, 20%D, 40%C,
20%B, 10%A. Let each student pick a chip and leave the class, certain of his/her
grade."
For some reason, nobody ever
Splendid.
The pot has been stirred.
Some very good responses to my stone.
I stand corrected.
DAH
A very interesting discussion so far.
David A. Heiser writes:
>Demming sounds like Karl Marx. In an ideal enlightened society Demmings
>approach would work. However the ideal enlightened society always comes
>apart because of greed.
>
>In a greedy, unenlightened, violent society, survival requir
Hi
On Wed, 22 Dec 1999, Peter Westfall wrote:
> Jim Clark wrote:
> > Artificially giving all students (or almost all) the same grade
> > does not minimize variation in the underlying trait, achievement,
> > in this case. It simply hides the variation so that one does not
> > know to what extent o
Eric Bohlman wrote:
> Try reading _Out of the Crisis_ and _The New Economics_. You may very
> well find yourself disagreeing with some of his assertions,
>
Another good one: Henry Neave, _The Deming Dimension_. It has a more
sophisticated (but still pretty lightweight for readers of this n
This thread has seen an amazing number of postings and is now starting
to get out of hand. Question. Does this mean everyone is done
grading finals, or is it just that posting to the list looks like more
fun than that stack of ungraded papers?
Best wishes to all for the coming year!
--
David A. Heiser ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
: Demming sounds like Karl Marx. In an ideal enlightened society Demmings
: approach would work. However the ideal enlightened society always comes
: apart because of greed.
If you say that Deming sounds like Karl Marx, it means only one thing:
that you
> No doubt about it, we can't make everyone the same, nor do we want to. We
can,
> however, make their levels of understanding and logical thought processes
> similar through proper education. Human diversity is expected. We can't
> change people's race, creed, color, physical characteristics,
Robert Dawson wrote:
> "Learning should be a joy...?" It all depends on what you mean by "should".
> If you mean that, given an individual learner it is better that they learn
> joyfully than otherwise, sure. But this does not mean that we can or should
> refuse to teach anybody who is there
Jim Clark writes:
>I would be interested in hearing about any empirical
>evidence that non-use of grading schemes produces better or even
>as good learning as the use of grades?
Alfie Kohn has an excellent summary about the empirical evidence in a book
titled "Punished by Rewards : The Trouble W
On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Not all grading practices "on a curve" are performed as described by Eric
> Bohlman.
That is right. There are many forms of grading that are all refered to
with the term "curve" included somewhere. By "curving" a test the
instructor could mean th
So, are you saying that once a student has been admitted grading becomes
irrelevant? If not, then we are discussing two different points. From
another post you seem to be talking about fixed grading curves (a fixed
percentage of the students getting A's, B's, C's, etc). I am talking much
more
Eric Bohlman wrote (in part):
> It [the "budget assumption" in grading by quantiles]
> implies at least two questionable, to say the least, underlying
assumptions:
>
> 1) That the "total" of whatever it is that grades are supposed to measure
> is a constant depending only on class size.
>
> 2) Th
Not all grading practices "on a curve" are performed as described by Eric
Bohlman.
OK maybe I am clueless about all of this but I often saw grading on a curve
being implemented when lots of students performed poorly on a test. Thus
test scores were adjusted (usually in the upward direction) t
Michael Granaas ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
: While more careful admissions processes would certainly limit the
: variability in students, and therefor grading, how is it any different
: from grading? If you are going to be more careful with admissions you
: need a ranking system of some sort to d
"Learning should be a joy...?" It all depends on what you mean by "should".
If you mean that, given an individual learner it is better that they learn
joyfully than otherwise, sure. But this does not mean that we can or should
refuse to teach anybody who is there for some lesser motive than "the
EAKIN MARK E ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
: While I do not grade on a curve, I feel that if reasons exist,it is more
: valid to adjust atypical grades distributions than not to adjust them.
: My reason for not grading on a curve is more for class harmony. Grading on
: a curve often means taking poi
Regarding Rich Ulrich's experience in grad school:
Now *there's* a way to deal with tests of questionable validity: suppress
the results!
Maybe the department was being run by George W. Bush?
Mike
On Wed, 22 Dec 1999, dennis roberts wrote:
> this shows how naive deming really was ...
> who says learning "should" be a joy?
I do, inter alios.
> learning is WORK ... and, work is hard.
Sure it is. _Real_ work is also fun.
> now, some kids really relish the task and chall
On Wed, 22 Dec 1999, Peter Westfall wrote:
>
> Your comment implies that the goal of the system should be to rank, to assign
> labels to people, essentially to weed - a kind of social Darwinism. This is
> where Deming would disagree - he would say that the goal is to educate people
> for their o
On 21 Dec 1999 15:33:56 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (EAKIN MARK E)
wrote:
[ ...]
> Which doesn't even consider the fact that few (no one I know of)
> instructors attempt to validate their testing instruments using the
> concepts of measurement theory (reliablity and validity assesment). This
> is an
r discussion of
"adjusting" marks ...
At 08:33 AM 12/22/99 -0600, Peter Westfall wrote about deming:
>The motivation for the students should be in Joy of Learning (one of
>Deming's 14
>points) rather than the grade.
--
208 Ce
"David A. Heiser" wrote:
> - Original Message -
> From: Peter Westfall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 1999 6:45 PM
> Subject: Re: adjusting marks
>
> >
> >
> > Bob Hayden wr
Jim Clark wrote:
> Artificially giving all students (or almost all) the same grade
> does not minimize variation in the underlying trait, achievement,
> in this case. It simply hides the variation so that one does not
> know to what extent one is minimizing differences in achievement,
> and rew
- Forwarded message from David A. Heiser -
I don't agree with Demming. Life is essentially a matter of diversity, and
being able to find one's own "niche". The process of ranking is inherent in
life whenever there is stress on a population. Going to college is indeed
"stress".
- End
Hi
On Tue, 21 Dec 1999, Peter Westfall wrote:
> Regarding making the standard deviation large, Deming would say that
> management's (professors, administrators) job entails minimizing
> variation among students. This can be done in the usual ways -
> admissions procedures, advising, prerequisite
- Forwarded message from Peter Westfall -
Bob Hayden wrote:
> - Forwarded message from Peter Westfall -
>
> Deming himself (if I remember correctly) graded everyone as "A" until
> the administration noticed, and then they made his courses Pass-Fail.
>
> Deming was also very much
- Original Message -
From: Peter Westfall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 1999 6:45 PM
Subject: Re: adjusting marks
>
>
> Bob Hayden wrote:
>
> > - Forwarded message from Peter Westfall -
> >
> &g
Bob Hayden wrote:
> - Forwarded message from Peter Westfall -
>
> Deming himself (if I remember correctly) graded everyone as "A" until
> the administration noticed, and then they made his courses Pass-Fail.
>
> Deming was also very much against ranking students in any way, except
> for
- Forwarded message from Peter Westfall -
Deming himself (if I remember correctly) graded everyone as "A" until
the administration noticed, and then they made his courses Pass-Fail.
Deming was also very much against ranking students in any way, except
for the possible exception of identi
dennis roberts wrote:
> At 02:34 PM 12/21/99 -0600, EAKIN MARK E wrote:
> >Dennis Roberts writes:
>
> i said this ...
>
> >>
> >> third ... usually, "curving" means lowering the cutoffs ... that were
> >> established at the beginning of a course (maybe in the syllabus) if
> >> that is the
Dennis writes:
>
> but, i counter counter with ...
>
> sorry ... grading is PRIMARILY a subjective activity ... there is no other
> way to put it. now, you can have test scores, project scores, other
> observations, speeches, homework, knowledge from previous classes, etc.
> ... you name it. b
At 02:34 PM 12/21/99 -0600, EAKIN MARK E wrote:
>Dennis Roberts writes:
i said this ...
>>
>> third ... usually, "curving" means lowering the cutoffs ... that were
>> established at the beginning of a course (maybe in the syllabus) if
>> that is the case ... then there is NO statistical
Dennis Roberts writes:
>
> third ... usually, "curving" means lowering the cutoffs ... that were
> established at the beginning of a course (maybe in the syllabus) if
> that is the case ... then there is NO statistical rationale for this ...
> simply, your "gut" feeling that not enough st
I assume she intends to move all marks up or down in tandem. I assume too
that the marks themselves are quantitative along some sort of continuum.
Regardless, the easiest thing would be to rank order them and make a decision
where the cutoff lines for A's, B's, etc.make sense. I don't see t
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>My wife wants to adjust marks for a course she is marking. Does someone
>have
>a formula or something for using a bell curve to move them up or down?
>
>I have done this sort of thing about 15 years ago, but I can't remember
>any
>of it!
>
Use a calculator to find the av
first, why does she want to do this?
second, does the distribution as is, look like a normal distribution? if
not ... why would you want to FORCE it to look like that?
third ... usually, "curving" means lowering the cutoffs ... that were
established at the beginning of a course (maybe in the
Dear Why, Ted:
Sign your query, and provide a usable return address, and someone might
consider an answer. It might even be a useful one. But anonymous
questions don't deserve a response.
On Tue, 21 Dec 1999, Generic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> My wife wants to adjust marks for a course s
My wife wants to adjust marks for a course she is marking. Does someone have
a formula or something for using a bell curve to move them up or down?
I have done this sort of thing about 15 years ago, but I can't remember any
of it!
--
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