Thanks, Kirby, for cluing me in that I hadn't posted it to the list.
--Joshua
-- Forwarded message --
From: Joshua Zucker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sep 8, 2006 2:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] The fate of raw_input() in Python 3000
To: kirby urner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
On 9/8/06, ki
> > I have a hard time getting through your rhetoric.
>
> I think it's quite expressive.
:-)
Toby
--
Dr. Toby Donaldson
School of Computing Science
Simon Fraser University (Surrey)
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On 9/8/06, Dan Crosta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> But let's be realistic: my mom has only recently learned to understand
> email, she's not about to go out and program her own spam filter. It's
> just not in her skillset, and more importantly, her interest set. I
> think you're projecting a bit o
> Kirby
> CEO, 4D Studios
> Silicon Forest
> Portand (Oregon)
um, Portland.
Kirby
myspace.com/4dstudios for more re my ToonTown enterprise.
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kirby urner wrote:
> On 9/8/06, Dan Crosta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> It may not be how you like to teach computer programming or interacting
>> with computers, but I think there's a very important case to be made for
>> "other as client" at the very beginning, as a way of keeping it
>> inter
On 9/8/06, Toby Donaldson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I think the model today is "a person writing code for him or herself"
> > i.e. "self as client" -- at least in an early context.
> > We're not guiding the unknowing through a menu tree. We're computer
> > literate,
> > fluent. Why would we
On 9/8/06, kirby urner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 9/8/06, Toby Donaldson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Teaching is filled with IOUs. We often use things before we completely
> > understand them.
> >
> > Toby
>
> I would like a deeper discussion of why we still need to prompt
> ourselves for
On 9/8/06, kirby urner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You're not making a monkey out of your mom, by making her loop through
> some little menu, oblivious of the language underneath, its logic and
> design. You're "protecting you mother" (aka paradigm end user) from
> knowing *anything* about Pytho
On 9/8/06, Dan Crosta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It may not be how you like to teach computer programming or interacting
> with computers, but I think there's a very important case to be made for
> "other as client" at the very beginning, as a way of keeping it
> interesting, when someone else i
From: John Zelle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> >> > But I honestly believe all that buys me is the ability to be a> > run-of-the-mill-programmer.> > Perhaps, but no where near a run-of-the-mill student.
For the record, I think that is really only a matter of degree of motivation.
Alice's "lessons", for ex
kirby urner wrote:
> I would like a deeper discussion of why we still need to prompt
> ourselves for input.
>
> I think the model today is "a person writing code for him or herself"
> i.e. "self as client" -- at least in an early context. We're not
> guiding the unknowing through a menu tree. We
On 9/8/06, Toby Donaldson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Teaching is filled with IOUs. We often use things before we completely
> understand them.
>
> Toby
I would like a deeper discussion of why we still need to prompt
ourselves for input.
I think the model today is "a person writing code for him
On 9/8/06, John Zelle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> OK, I lied: one last post. I see no problem with posting a message to whatever
> group seems most appropriate and including a pointer to the discussion on
> this thread. That's not "dragging edu-sig into a political role" it's simply
> avoiding reh
The character of "precalc" is very strange. I find it eerie that some
texts spell it "Precalculus" rather than "Pre-Calculus" as though it
were a class of knowledge like Algebra, Calc, or Trig.
We are building our curriculum without giving students a particular
textbook so we do have a healthy am
From: John Zelle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> > That's assuming that the goal of said education is to produce > professional > programmers. I believe that everyone has something to gain from > learning what > software is really all about. Most will not rise to the level of > professional > (or even compete
- Original Message -From: John Zelle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Date: Friday, September 8, 2006 2:51 pmSubject: Re: [Edu-sig] The fate of raw_input() in Python 3000To: edu-sig@python.org> On Friday 08 September 2006 1:33 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:> > From: "Radenski, Atanas"> >> > > You are obvio
On Friday 08 September 2006 1:33 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> From: "Radenski, Atanas"
>
> > You are obviously way more intelligent than the average student
> > whom we need to teach.
>
> Standardized testing seems to indicate me to be a good deal to the better
> spectrum of the bell curve.
>
> B
From: "Radenski, Atanas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> You are obviously way more intelligent than the average student > whom we need to teach.
Standardized testing seems to indicate me to be a good deal to the better spectrum of the bell curve.
But I honestly believe all that buys me is the ability t
OK, I lied: one last post. I see no problem with posting a message to whatever
group seems most appropriate and including a pointer to the discussion on
this thread. That's not "dragging edu-sig into a political role" it's simply
avoiding rehashing what I think has been a fruitful discussion. Th
> > What if instead of naming the package "teaching", it was called
> > something less offensive, like "simpleIO" or "userinput" or
> > "interactive" or "convenience"?
>
> This is a plausible way to remove the 'teaching' label. I would prefer
> 'stdin'.
'stdin' is probably meaningless to beginners
> Removing input() FORCES people to have to address import, streams, dot
> notation,
> functions, and strings.
How does using the input function avoid the use of functions? :-)
Keep in mind that most students have no problem *using* unexplained
features if there is a good reason to use them. For
On 9/8/06, Kevin Driscoll <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The poison leaks not from any individuals but rather from the schism
> between academia and the rest of the programming world.
>
> Kevin
I appreciate your moderating tone.
I've both been a full time high school teacher (mostly math -- privat
On 9/8/06, Ian Bicking <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't understand your strong reaction. OK -- saying "if Python 3k
> takes away input() then I'm going to use Ruby" is pretty lame and will
> keep an opinion from being taken seriously. But all Doug was talking
> about was registering the opin
Hi Kevin --
Over on math-teach we've been hashing over whether "pre calc" is
really prehistoric, as in "soon to be known as something else" i.e. if
this becomes a popular insert point for such gnu languages as Python,
who knows what will happen, but immediately you're putting most
printed precalc
kirby urner wrote:
> As a teacher, I'd be deeply ashamed to have my name on a Python
> Petition of any kind, unless Guido had already signed off on that as a
> viable community process. To my knowledge, he hasn't. Maybe I'm out
> of date.
I don't understand your strong reaction. OK -- saying "i
> You can find me over at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> -Doug
>
Who said we couldn't be passionate and hostile as teachers? As long
as we have it under control.
I'm just registering my attitude, risking no one's reputation but my
own, on a list set aside for teachers (which is what I am).
I think the p
Douglas S. Blank wrote:
> Kirby,
>
> As a teacher, I don't have time to argue over on python-dev what should
> and should not be included in the language. And don't want to! I am
> thinking of our "petition nonsense" as a data point for those people
> that do take the time over on python-dev to
kirby urner wrote:
[snip]
> I'm sick of these "teachers" you keep talking about. They should all
> just go away, and let the real programmers have their jobs. Don't
> even *think* about teaching Python if you haven't coded in it
> professionally and made real money off it. That's closer to my
I'm teaching Pre-Calculus for the first time this year and am hoping
to integrate Python as often as possible. My syllabus is focused on
exploring functions in various forms, uses, and contexts. The
intersections to programming are numerous and beautiful.
I'd love to get a brainstorm happening h
> I'm sick of these "teachers" you keep talking about. They should all
> just go away, and let the real programmers have their jobs. Don't
> even *think* about teaching Python if you haven't coded in it
> professionally and made real money off it. That's closer to my
> attitude than "oh, the tea
On 9/8/06, Douglas S. Blank <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Kirby,
>
> As a teacher, I don't have time to argue over on python-dev what should
> and should not be included in the language. And don't want to! I am
> thinking of our "petition nonsense" as a data point for those people
> that do take the
On 9/8/06, Radenski, Atanas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You are obviously way more intelligent than the average student whom we need
> to teach. > Our job is to teach Python programming to anyone who may happen
> to be in our
> classes. What is good for you may not be good for ordinary beginner
Kirby,
As a teacher, I don't have time to argue over on python-dev what should
and should not be included in the language. And don't want to! I am
thinking of our "petition nonsense" as a data point for those people
that do take the time over on python-dev to figure out the best thing to
do ne
John Zelle wrote:
>First up, I support the "petition"/ suggestion whatever you want to call it.
>
>I'm somewhat disappointed that our discussion here seems to have gotten
>derailed by Arthur's comments that it's all about ease of teaching. I think I
>put forward a number or solid arguments abou
kirby urner wrote:
> On 9/8/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> :) Of course, I meant that it forces people to use those topics before
>> they want to.
>>
>> I assume that you don't really want to dictate to other teachers the order
>> that these items are addressed, right? Just
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Arthur
Sent: Thu 9/7/2006 6:51 PM
> import
>
> is in fact the most exciting statement we have.
>
> import OpenGL
> import Python
> import Numarray
> import some kid's bright idea from yesterday
> import CandyStore as yummies
On 9/8/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> :) Of course, I meant that it forces people to use those topics before
> they want to.
>
> I assume that you don't really want to dictate to other teachers the order
> that these items are addressed, right? Just checking...
>
> -Doug
I thi
On 9/8/06, John Zelle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> First up, I support the "petition"/ suggestion whatever you want to call it.
>
> I'm somewhat disappointed that our discussion here seems to have gotten
> derailed by Arthur's comments that it's all about ease of teaching. I think I
> put forward a
First up, I support the "petition"/ suggestion whatever you want to call it.
I'm somewhat disappointed that our discussion here seems to have gotten
derailed by Arthur's comments that it's all about ease of teaching. I think I
put forward a number or solid arguments about IO being core to progr
> On 9/7/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > I think the professors are very wrong here.
>>
>> This isn't about "I'm right; you're wrong"; it's about making a decsion
>> that can effect the way that *others* want to use Python. Removing
>> input()
>> FORCES people to have to addre
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