Re: Black holes and the information paradox

2019-03-13 Thread Lawrence Crowell
On Tuesday, March 12, 2019 at 4:38:24 PM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 8:41 AM Lawrence Crowell > wrote: > > > The time it takes a black hole (BH) to quantum decay completely is >> proportional to the cube of the mass, which means the black hole has >> emitted half its

Re: Black holes and the information paradox

2019-03-13 Thread Bruno Marchal
Hi Grayson, Hi everybody, Like every years, the quantity of work is growing, more or less up to June, so I apologise in advance for answering more slowly. > On 12 Mar 2019, at 22:54, agrayson2...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, March 12, 2019 at 12:18:50 PM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote:

Re: Black holes and the information paradox

2019-03-12 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 8:41 AM Lawrence Crowell < goldenfieldquaterni...@gmail.com> wrote: > The time it takes a black hole (BH) to quantum decay completely is > proportional to the cube of the mass, which means the black hole has > emitted half its mass in 7/8ths of its expected duration. This

Re: Black holes and the information paradox

2019-03-12 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List
On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 7:04 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 12:43 PM John Clark wrote: On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 8:42 PM Lawrence Crowell wrote: > all the radiation emitted is entangled with the black hole, which would then > mean the entanglement entropy increases

Re: Black holes and the information paradox

2019-03-12 Thread agrayson2000
On Tuesday, March 12, 2019 at 12:18:51 PM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 11 Mar 2019, at 03:16, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > They say if information is lost, determination is toast. > > > That is not correct. If information is lost, reversibility is toast, but > determination can be

Re: Black holes and the information paradox

2019-03-12 Thread agrayson2000
On Tuesday, March 12, 2019 at 12:18:50 PM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 11 Mar 2019, at 09:54, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 1:43:05 AM UTC-6, Liz R wrote: >> >> I thought QM was deterministic, at least mathematically - and I guess in >> the MWI? >> > >

Re: Black holes and the information paradox

2019-03-12 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 11 Mar 2019, at 03:16, agrayson2...@gmail.com wrote: > > They say if information is lost, determination is toast. That is not correct. If information is lost, reversibility is toast, but determination can be conserved. Typically the Kestrek bird K is irreversible, as it eliminates

Re: Black holes and the information paradox

2019-03-12 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 11 Mar 2019, at 09:54, agrayson2...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 1:43:05 AM UTC-6, Liz R wrote: > I thought QM was deterministic, at least mathematically - and I guess in the > MWI? > > QM is deterministic, but only as far as reconstructing wf's as time is >

Re: Black holes and the information paradox

2019-03-12 Thread Lawrence Crowell
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 8:04:57 PM UTC-6, Bruce wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 12:43 PM John Clark > wrote: > >> On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 8:42 PM Lawrence Crowell < >> goldenfield...@gmail.com > wrote: >> >> > all the radiation emitted is entangled with the black hole, which >>> would

Re: Black holes and the information paradox

2019-03-12 Thread Lawrence Crowell
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 7:43:54 PM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: > > > On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 8:42 PM Lawrence Crowell > wrote: > > > all the radiation emitted is entangled with the black hole, which would >> then mean the entanglement entropy increases beyond the Bekenstein bound. > > > >

Re: Black holes and the information paradox

2019-03-11 Thread Philip Thrift
On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 9:16:12 PM UTC-5, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > They say if information is lost, determination is toast. But doesn't QM > inherently affirm information loss? I mean, although, say, the SWE can be > run backward in time to reconstruct any wf it describes, we can

Re: Black holes and the information paradox

2019-03-11 Thread Bruce Kellett
On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 12:43 PM John Clark wrote: > On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 8:42 PM Lawrence Crowell < > goldenfieldquaterni...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > all the radiation emitted is entangled with the black hole, which would >> then mean the entanglement entropy increases beyond the Bekenstein

Re: Black holes and the information paradox

2019-03-11 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 8:42 PM Lawrence Crowell < goldenfieldquaterni...@gmail.com> wrote: > all the radiation emitted is entangled with the black hole, which would > then mean the entanglement entropy increases beyond the Bekenstein bound. Could nature be trying to tell us that the

Re: Black holes and the information paradox

2019-03-11 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 8:14 PM wrote: *> How is information preserved in usual QM? If a particle bends in one > direction, and you play the wf back in time, how do you recover a particle > which will bend in the same direction, exactly? AG * > You can't replay the motion of a particle because

Re: Black holes and the information paradox

2019-03-11 Thread Lawrence Crowell
On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 8:16:12 PM UTC-6, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > They say if information is lost, determination is toast. But doesn't QM > inherently affirm information loss? I mean, although, say, the SWE can be > run backward in time to reconstruct any wf it describes, we can

Re: Black holes and the information paradox

2019-03-11 Thread smitra
On 12-03-2019 01:14, agrayson2...@gmail.com wrote: On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 2:41:13 PM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 12:18 PM wrote: We can calculate the wave function exactly but the wave function does not determine exactly how matter will behave. _THATS PRECISELY

Re: Black holes and the information paradox

2019-03-11 Thread agrayson2000
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 2:41:13 PM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: > > > On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 12:18 PM > > wrote: > > >>We can calculate the wave function exactly but the wave function does >>> not determine exactly how matter will behave. >>> >> >> *That's precisely my point. If we can't

Re: Black holes and the information paradox

2019-03-11 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 12:18 PM wrote: >>We can calculate the wave function exactly but the wave function does not >> determine exactly how matter will behave. >> > > *That's precisely my point. If we can't determine exactly how matter will > behave, how can we go back in time to reconstruct

Re: Black holes and the information paradox

2019-03-11 Thread agrayson2000
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 7:40:59 AM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 4:54 AM > wrote: > > *> QM is deterministic, but only as far as reconstructing wf's* >> > > We can calculate the wave function exactly but the wave function does not > determine exactly how matter will

Re: Black holes and the information paradox

2019-03-11 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 4:54 AM wrote: *> QM is deterministic, but only as far as reconstructing wf's* > We can calculate the wave function exactly but the wave function does not determine exactly how matter will behave. As far as the Black Hole information paradox goes solving that is one of

Re: Black holes and the information paradox

2019-03-11 Thread agrayson2000
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 1:43:05 AM UTC-6, Liz R wrote: > > I thought QM was deterministic, at least mathematically - and I guess in > the MWI? > *QM is deterministic, but only as far as reconstructing wf's as time is reversed, but it can't reconstruct individual events which are without

Re: Black holes and the information paradox

2019-03-11 Thread Liz R
I thought QM was deterministic, at least mathematically - and I guess in the MWI? I mean everyone can't have forgotten quantum indeterminacy when discussing the BHIP, surely? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe

Black holes and the information paradox

2019-03-10 Thread agrayson2000
They say if information is lost, determination is toast. But doesn't QM inherently affirm information loss? I mean, although, say, the SWE can be run backward in time to reconstruct any wf it describes, we can never reconstruct or play backward Born's rule, in the sense of knowing what