Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 21 December 2013 13:19, meekerdb wrote: > On 12/20/2013 3:28 PM, LizR wrote: > > On 21 December 2013 08:12, Stephen Paul King > wrote: > >> Dear Jason, >> >>I think it was you that wrote (to me): >> "I was not defending that view, but pointing out how ridiculous it would >> be to suppo

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 12:50 PM, John Clark wrote: > > On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 Jason Resch wrote: > > > Do you agree that after turning this computer on, and letting it run for >> a long enough time (eternity let's say), there is a 100% chance John Clark >> will eventually find himself in this co

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 12/20/2013 3:42 PM, John Mikes wrote: Jason, you 'assume' a lot what I don't. I learned those figments in college and applied in my conventional research - now reduced in my credibility (agnosticism) for phizix and its 'laws' - (in spite of the practical results which I use happily in my life

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

"The inverse square law is true in Platonia. In the real world it's just a very good approximation." How do you know this is true? On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 7:19 PM, meekerdb wrote: > On 12/20/2013 3:28 PM, LizR wrote: > > On 21 December 2013 08:12, Stephen Paul King > wrote: > >> Dear Jaso

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 12/20/2013 3:28 PM, LizR wrote: On 21 December 2013 08:12, Stephen Paul King > wrote: Dear Jason, I think it was you that wrote (to me): "I was not defending that view, but pointing out how ridiculous it would be to suppose mathematical t

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

Dear LizR, Is math "in our heads" or is it somehow "out there". If it is "out there" how does it connect to what is in our heads? If it is all in our heads, what does that say about Arithmetic Realism? I am trying to get back to some basic concepts... On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 6:28 PM, LizR wr

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

Jason, you 'assume' a lot what I don't. I learned those figments in college and applied in my conventional research - now reduced in my credibility (agnosticism) for phizix and its 'laws' - (in spite of the practical results which I use happily in my life-practice) - as - some *explanatory sweat

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 21 December 2013 08:12, Stephen Paul King wrote: > Dear Jason, > > I think it was you that wrote (to me): > "I was not defending that view, but pointing out how ridiculous it would > be to suppose mathematical truth does not exist before it is found by > someone somewhere." > >I am trying

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

Its Immaterial! your question has a bad premise! On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 5:43 PM, meekerdb wrote: > Can you clone the number 2? Is it classical or quantum? > > Brent > > > On 12/20/2013 2:38 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: > > Numbers are no less "immaterial"... > > > On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 4:

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

Can you clone the number 2? Is it classical or quantum? Brent On 12/20/2013 2:38 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: Numbers are no less "immaterial"... On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 4:43 PM, meekerdb > wrote: On 12/20/2013 1:30 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: No no.

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

Numbers are no less "immaterial"... On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 4:43 PM, meekerdb wrote: > On 12/20/2013 1:30 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: > > No no. If the mind is classical then Nature would not bother making many > different version of "the same software", no? I worry that we are treating > th

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 12/20/2013 1:30 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: No no. If the mind is classical then Nature would not bother making many different version of "the same software", no? I worry that we are treating the mind and consciousness as a "thing", as if we could hold it in our hands, when we try to make s

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

No no. If the mind is classical then Nature would not bother making many different version of "the same software", no? I worry that we are treating the mind and consciousness as a "thing", as if we could hold it in our hands, when we try to make sense of it. THis may be a mistake... On Fri, Dec

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 12/20/2013 1:10 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: Hi John, Questions On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 2:47 PM, John Clark > wrote: On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 5:33 PM, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: > The non-cloning theorem disallows 3)-5) at the

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

Hi John, Questions On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 2:47 PM, John Clark wrote: > > > On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 5:33 PM, meekerdb wrote: > > > The non-cloning theorem disallows 3)-5) at the level of the quantum >> state. It's not so clear though how that is related to consciousness and >> identity. >> >

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 4:30 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >>> and following duplication there is a 50% chance of finding oneself at >> the intended destination >> > > >> JOHN CLARK HATES PRONOUNS! Following duplication there is a 100% chance > Jason Resch will be at the intended destination. > > >

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 3:58 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > How many first person experiences viewed from their first person points >> of view does Bruno Marchal believe exists on planet Earth right now? >> > > > The question is ambiguous. > I provided all the information needed to be crystal clear

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 12/20/2013 11:47 AM, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 5:33 PM, meekerdb > wrote: > The non-cloning theorem disallows 3)-5) at the level of the quantum state. It's not so clear though how that is related to consciousness and identity. I disa

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

Dunno. If the UDA can show that the world must be made of indistinguishable particles and they must obey either Bose-Einstein or Fermi-Dirac statistics, but not Maxwell-Boltzman that would be fairly impressive. Brent On 12/20/2013 11:41 AM, Stephen Paul King wrote: Hi Brent, I know the di

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 5:33 PM, meekerdb wrote: > The non-cloning theorem disallows 3)-5) at the level of the quantum > state. It's not so clear though how that is related to consciousness and > identity. > I disagree, I think it is very clear. If things need to be that precise, if a change in

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

Hi Brent, I know the difference. I am asking why? What if there is a UD related process underlying the symmetry? On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 2:38 PM, meekerdb wrote: > On 12/20/2013 11:18 AM, Stephen Paul King wrote: > > Hi Brent, > > > On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 1:34 PM, meekerdb wrote: > >> O

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 12/20/2013 11:18 AM, Stephen Paul King wrote: Hi Brent, On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 1:34 PM, meekerdb > wrote: On 12/20/2013 1:07 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The non-cloning theorem should be obvious, given that any piece of observable "matter" needs th

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

Hi Brent, On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 1:34 PM, meekerdb wrote: > On 12/20/2013 1:07 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > The non-cloning theorem should be obvious, given that any piece of > observable "matter" needs the entire UD* to get describe exactly, given > that the appearance of matter is only t

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 12/20/2013 10:50 AM, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 Jason Resch mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com>> wrote: > Do you agree that after turning this computer on, and letting it run for a long enough time (eternity let's say), there is a 100% chance John Clark will eventually

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

Dear Bruno, Could it be that the physical world that is associated with an observer (using your definition of an observer) is the "truth" of that observer? I apologize for the weirdness of this question, but consider that nothing is more "true" than the 1st person experience that an observer has

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 Jason Resch wrote: > Do you agree that after turning this computer on, and letting it run for > a long enough time (eternity let's say), there is a 100% chance John Clark > will eventually find himself in this computer > Yes, in fact it may have already happened. >> That w

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 12/20/2013 1:07 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The non-cloning theorem should be obvious, given that any piece of observable "matter" needs the entire UD* to get describe exactly, given that the appearance of matter is only the result of the FPI on all computations (an infinite object). That se

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 19 Dec 2013, at 22:46, Jason Resch wrote: > 8. There is no need to build the computer in step 7, since the executions of all programs exist within the relations between large numbers. That would only be true if everything that could exist does exist, and maybe that's the way things

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 19 Dec 2013, at 22:26, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 2:42 PM, Jason Resch wrote: >1. Teleportation is survivable Yes. > 2.Teleportation with a time delay is survivable, and the time delay is imperceptible to the person teleported Obviously. > 3. Duplication (teleportat

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 19 Dec 2013, at 21:36, John Mikes wrote: Here is my tuppence about the hoax-game of the fantasy-play 'teleportation': It is theoretical reasoning in the frame of an hypothesis making such theorizing meaningful, unless you believe that comp is false. But then you might have to argue th

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 19 Dec 2013, at 21:02, Richard Ruquist wrote: I do not believe in #1 due to the no cloning theorem. We don't assume QM. If comp produces QM it must also produce the no cloning theorem. The non-cloning theorem should be obvious, given that any piece of observable "matter" needs the

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 19 Dec 2013, at 18:29, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 2:05 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > Bruno: The question is: is it enough correct so that you would please us in answering step 4. If not: what is incorrect. John Clark: (No answer, deleted the question) I have not read step 4

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 19 Dec 2013, at 18:08, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 4:42 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> It is clear that you don't take the first person experiences into account" >> "The" not "a" ?? For the third time please say how many first person experiences exist on planet Earth ri

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 12/19/2013 1:06 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: Hi Roger, No, QM allows teleportation so 1) and 2) are already shown (in the case of atoms) to be possible. What QM disallows is 3) - 5), which makes the rest of the steps subject to debate. The non-cloning theorem disallows 3)-5) at the leve

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 3:26 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 2:42 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > >> >> >1. Teleportation is survivable >> > > Yes. > > >> > 2.Teleportation with a time delay is survivable, and the time delay is >> imperceptible to the person teleported >> > > Obviously.

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 2:42 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > > >1. Teleportation is survivable > Yes. > > 2.Teleportation with a time delay is survivable, and the time delay is > imperceptible to the person teleported > Obviously. > 3. Duplication (teleportation to two locations: one intended and o

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

Hi Roger, No, QM allows teleportation so 1) and 2) are already shown (in the case of atoms) to be possible. What QM disallows is 3) - 5), which makes the rest of the steps subject to debate. I wish that Bruno could run his UD argument without any discussion of teleportation. As I see things, i

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 2:36 PM, John Mikes wrote: > Here is my tuppence about the *hoax-game* of the > *fantasy-play*'teleportation': > It is what I said, never substantiated and placed into circumstances never > substantiated or verified even within our imaginary physical(?) > explanations. >

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

Here is my tuppence about the *hoax-game* of the *fantasy-play*'teleportation': It is what I said, never substantiated and placed into circumstances never substantiated or verified even within our imaginary physical(?) explanations. Wana play? be my guest. In a 'transportation' (cf: reincarnation-l

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

I do not believe in #1 due to the no cloning theorem. If comp produces QM it must also produce the no cloning theorem. Richard On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 2:42 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 11:29 AM, John Clark wrote: > >> On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 2:05 PM, Jason Resch wrote

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 11:29 AM, John Clark wrote: > On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 2:05 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > Bruno: The question is: is it enough correct so that you would please us >> in answering step 4. If not: what is incorrect. >> John Clark: (No answer, deleted the question) >> > > I ha

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 2:05 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > Bruno: The question is: is it enough correct so that you would please us > in answering step 4. If not: what is incorrect. > John Clark: (No answer, deleted the question) > I have not read step 4, however if it is built on the foundation of t

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 4:42 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >>> It is clear that you don't take the first person experiences into >>> account" >> >> >> > >> "The" not "a" ?? For the third time please say how many first person >> experiences exist on planet Earth right now >> > > > Locally, 7 billion

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 18 Dec 2013, at 21:29, LizR wrote: On 19 December 2013 08:05, Jason Resch wrote: For someone who demands to be quoted in full, you sure cherry-picked pieces from Bruno's e-mail. How telling it is that you "erased" the following questions: Bruno: The question is: is it enough correct

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 18 Dec 2013, at 20:05, Jason Resch wrote: For someone who demands to be quoted in full, you sure cherry-picked pieces from Bruno's e-mail. How telling it is that you "erased" the following questions: Bruno: The question is: is it enough correct so that you would please us in answeri

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 19 Dec 2013, at 01:35, Stephen Paul King wrote: On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 6:55 PM, LizR wrote: On 19 December 2013 12:16, Stephen Paul King > wrote: What else is a mathematical theory, such as SR, GR and QM, for but to "...perform a particular calculation"? This is the problem, we fi

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 18 Dec 2013, at 21:57, Stephen Paul King wrote: Hi LizR, I would like to say that as a philosopher I have one problem with Bruno's assumptions: There is no explanation for how any form of change and interaction obtains. This is not a problem with the assumption. It is the problem

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 18 Dec 2013, at 18:59, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 12:21 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > You are the one not taking into account the 1p and 3p distinction, For several years now Bruno Marchal has accused John Clark of that, but John Clark would maintain that there is not a

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

Hi Brent, On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 8:01 PM, meekerdb wrote: > On 12/18/2013 4:27 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: > >Ever attempt to do a particular calculation with an actual infinite > dimensional Hilbert space? > > > Sure. > > > Why not? Sure, you can mod out (using symmetries and other tri

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 19 December 2013 13:35, Stephen Paul King wrote: > > > > On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 6:55 PM, LizR wrote: > >> On 19 December 2013 12:16, Stephen Paul King >> wrote: >> >>> >>> What else is a mathematical theory, such as SR, GR and QM, for but to >>> "...perform a particular calculation"? This is

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 12/18/2013 4:27 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: Ever attempt to do a particular calculation with an actual infinite dimensional Hilbert space? Sure. Why not? Sure, you can mod out (using symmetries and other tricks) all of the infinite dimensions except some finite subset, You can calcula

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 6:55 PM, LizR wrote: > On 19 December 2013 12:16, Stephen Paul King > wrote: > >> >> What else is a mathematical theory, such as SR, GR and QM, for but to >> "...perform >> a particular calculation"? This is the problem, we figure out ways to make >> ourselves believe th

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 19 December 2013 13:24, Jason Resch wrote: > > Consider this: If there were two "present moments" one day apart, that > moved along in parallel, would you have any way of knowing? Then what if > there were a million co-moving presents? Then what if all present moment's > existed at once? Ho

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

Ever attempt to do a particular calculation with an actual infinite dimensional Hilbert space? Why not? Sure, you can mod out (using symmetries and other tricks) all of the infinite dimensions except some finite subset, but that is the act that introduces the bias that I am pointing at! The actua

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Stephen Paul King < stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: > No, LizR. I reject the Laplacean vision that is used to "interpret" the > mathematical theories. SR, GR and QM, as mathematical models, are immune > from my critique. > Special Relativity leaves no room fo

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 19 December 2013 12:51, Stephen Paul King wrote: > Calling a "sequential ordering of events" time does not make a sequence of > events spring into being. It may "in our heads" but the physical world > doesn't work that way... Time would emerge right along with space from > interactions between

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 12/18/2013 3:51 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: Calling a "sequential ordering of events" time does not make a sequence of events spring into being. ?? Calling a large grey pachyderm an elephant does not make a large grey pachyderm spring into being either - but on the other hand it was alread

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 19 December 2013 12:16, Stephen Paul King wrote: > > What else is a mathematical theory, such as SR, GR and QM, for but to > "...perform > a particular calculation"? This is the problem, we figure out ways to make > ourselves believe that we can "know" all that there is to know about the > wor

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

Calling a "sequential ordering of events" time does not make a sequence of events spring into being. It may "in our heads" but the physical world doesn't work that way... Time would emerge right along with space from interactions between events. We do not need to specify the space and time before h

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 12/18/2013 3:16 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: My point is not about any kind of "specialness", *the same condition follows for any frame that is consistent with the math*. There is no such thing, mathematically, as a "view from nowhere" or, equivalently, for a "god's eye point of view." God i

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 19 December 2013 12:13, meekerdb wrote: > On 12/18/2013 1:05 PM, LizR wrote: > > On 19 December 2013 09:57, Stephen Paul King > wrote: > >> Hi LizR, >> >> I would like to say that as a philosopher I have one problem with >> Bruno's assumptions: There is no explanation for how any form

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

Kevin Knuth's talk: http://pirsa.org/10050054/ On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 6:16 PM, Stephen Paul King < stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: > Hi LizR, > > > On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 5:31 PM, LizR wrote: > >> On 19 December 2013 10:45, Stephen Paul King >> wrote: >> >>> Hi LizR, >>> >>> >>> On Wed, D

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

Hi LizR, On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 5:31 PM, LizR wrote: > On 19 December 2013 10:45, Stephen Paul King > wrote: > >> Hi LizR, >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 4:28 PM, LizR wrote: >> >>> On 19 December 2013 10:11, Stephen Paul King >> > wrote: >>> No, LizR. I reject the Laplacean vision

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 12/18/2013 1:05 PM, LizR wrote: On 19 December 2013 09:57, Stephen Paul King > wrote: Hi LizR, I would like to say that as a philosopher I have one problem with Bruno's assumptions: There is no explanation for how any form of change and inte

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 19 December 2013 10:45, Stephen Paul King wrote: > Hi LizR, > > > On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 4:28 PM, LizR wrote: > >> On 19 December 2013 10:11, Stephen Paul King >> wrote: >> >>> No, LizR. I reject the Laplacean vision that is used to "interpret" >>> the mathematical theories. SR, GR and QM,

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

Hi LizR, On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 4:28 PM, LizR wrote: > On 19 December 2013 10:11, Stephen Paul King > wrote: > >> No, LizR. I reject the Laplacean vision that is used to "interpret" the >> mathematical theories. SR, GR and QM, as mathematical models, are immune >> from my critique. Newtonia

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 19 December 2013 10:11, Stephen Paul King wrote: > No, LizR. I reject the Laplacean vision that is used to "interpret" the > mathematical theories. SR, GR and QM, as mathematical models, are immune > from my critique. Newtonian mechanics, while a useful tool to use to build > bridges and rock

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

No, LizR. I reject the Laplacean vision that is used to "interpret" the mathematical theories. SR, GR and QM, as mathematical models, are immune from my critique. Newtonian mechanics, while a useful tool to use to build bridges and rockets, is problematic as it implies the Laplacean vision of the

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 19 December 2013 09:57, Stephen Paul King wrote: > Hi LizR, > >I would like to say that as a philosopher I have one problem with > Bruno's assumptions: There is no explanation for how any form of change and > interaction obtains. This is the main problem that I have with Plato's > theory of

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

Hi LizR, I would like to say that as a philosopher I have one problem with Bruno's assumptions: There is no explanation for how any form of change and interaction obtains. This is the main problem that I have with Plato's theory of Forms, and since Bruno's seems to be using a concept equivalent

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 19 December 2013 08:05, Jason Resch wrote: > For someone who demands to be quoted in full, you sure cherry-picked > pieces from Bruno's e-mail. How telling it is that you "erased" the > following questions: > > Bruno: The question is: is it enough correct so that you would please us > in answ

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

For someone who demands to be quoted in full, you sure cherry-picked pieces from Bruno's e-mail. How telling it is that you "erased" the following questions: Bruno: The question is: is it enough correct so that you would please us in answering step 4. If not: what is incorrect. John Clark: (No a

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 12:21 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > You are the one not taking into account the 1p and 3p distinction, > For several years now Bruno Marchal has accused John Clark of that, but John Clark would maintain that there is not a single person on the face of the earth who is confus

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 18 Dec 2013, at 16:32, John Clark wrote: It's Bruno Marchal not John Clark who throws around personal pronouns like confetti in philosophical discussions about personal identity. You are the one not taking into account the 1p and 3p distinction, and when you do, concludes "trivial", b

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 18 Dec 2013, at 01:13, meekerdb wrote: On 12/17/2013 4:09 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 3:55 PM, meekerdb wrote: I'll favor it as soon as it provides some surprising but empirically true predictions - the same standard as for every other theory. What if in so

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

2013/12/18 John Clark > On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 4:00 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> >> Acording to Bruno Marchal's terminology "you" will see only one city >> and one city only; and "you" will see both Washington and Moscow; >> therefore Bruno Marchal's terminology is inconsistent in the one pe

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 4:00 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> Acording to Bruno Marchal's terminology "you" will see only one city > and one city only; and "you" will see both Washington and Moscow; > therefore Bruno Marchal's terminology is inconsistent in the one pee, two > pee, three pee, and pe

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 18 Dec 2013, at 00:30, meekerdb wrote: On 12/17/2013 11:39 AM, LizR wrote: On 18 December 2013 07:32, meekerdb wrote: But I don't have to believe true=exists. It seems to me this parallels your comment that the difference between "maths and matter" is that we can prove that mathematica

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 17 Dec 2013, at 19:55, meekerdb wrote: On 12/17/2013 1:51 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 17 Dec 2013, at 02:03, meekerdb wrote: On 12/16/2013 4:41 PM, LizR wrote: On 17 December 2013 13:07, meekerdb wrote: In a sense, one can be more certain about arithmetical reality than the physical

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 17 Dec 2013, at 19:43, meekerdb wrote: On 12/17/2013 1:33 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 17 Dec 2013, at 00:58, meekerdb wrote: On 12/16/2013 2:05 PM, LizR wrote: On 17 December 2013 10:43, meekerdb wrote: Is that another way of saying you don't think Arithmetical Realism is correct? (W

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 17 Dec 2013, at 19:32, meekerdb wrote: On 12/17/2013 1:20 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Dec 2013, at 22:14, meekerdb wrote: On 12/16/2013 12:40 PM, LizR wrote: On 17 December 2013 08:06, meekerdb wrote: JKC makes a big point of the complete separation of quantum worlds, although Eve

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 17 Dec 2013, at 15:37, Stephen Paul King wrote: Hi Jason, On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 1:27 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 12:16 AM, Stephen Paul King > wrote: Truth. Truth =/= Proof. Ummm, as I see things: Proof => Truth. If that is true, it is not provable (with p

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 5:30 PM, meekerdb wrote: > On 12/17/2013 11:39 AM, LizR wrote: > > On 18 December 2013 07:32, meekerdb wrote: > >> >> But I don't have to believe true=exists. >> >> It seems to me this parallels your comment that the difference between > "maths and matter" is that we

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 12/17/2013 4:12 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 4:11 PM, meekerdb > wrote: On 12/17/2013 8:43 AM, Jason Resch wrote: I think there may be a confusion of what I am suggesting. Let's say there is some integer N, so large it cannot be

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 12/17/2013 4:09 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 3:55 PM, meekerdb > wrote: I'll favor it as soon as it provides some surprising but empirically true predictions - the same standard as for every other theory. What if in some alternate

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 4:11 PM, meekerdb wrote: > On 12/17/2013 8:43 AM, Jason Resch wrote: > > I think there may be a confusion of what I am suggesting. Let's say there > is some integer N, so large it cannot be described by anyone in this > universe. What I am saying is that exactly one of t

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 3:55 PM, meekerdb wrote: > On 12/17/2013 8:07 AM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > > On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 12:49 AM, meekerdb wrote: > >> On 12/16/2013 10:13 PM, Jason Resch wrote: >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 12:06 AM, meekerdb wrote: >> >>> On 12/16/2013 10:0

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 12/17/2013 11:39 AM, LizR wrote: On 18 December 2013 07:32, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: But I don't have to believe true=exists. It seems to me this parallels your comment that the difference between "maths and matter" is that we can prove that mathematical truths ar

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 12/17/2013 8:43 AM, Jason Resch wrote: I think there may be a confusion of what I am suggesting. Let's say there is some integer N, so large it cannot be described by anyone in this universe. What I am saying is that exactly one of the following two statements is true: "N is prime", "N is no

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 12/17/2013 8:07 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 12:49 AM, meekerdb > wrote: On 12/16/2013 10:13 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 12:06 AM, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 12/16/2013 10:02 PM, J

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 12/17/2013 7:58 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 12:43 AM, meekerdb > wrote: On 12/16/2013 10:09 PM, Jason Resch wrote: ... Instead of concluding only that the only thing he could prove is that "he exists",

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 12/17/2013 1:33 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 17 Dec 2013, at 00:58, meekerdb wrote: On 12/16/2013 2:05 PM, LizR wrote: On 17 December 2013 10:43, meekerdb > wrote: Is that another way of saying you don't think Arithmetical Realism is correct? (Which is

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 18 December 2013 07:23, meekerdb wrote: > On 12/16/2013 11:44 PM, LizR wrote: > Probably not. Just that a very big number like 10^80 is effectively > divisible by any small number, since the remainder can be neglected. > > Well, that will certainly help anyone who is trying to crack somethi

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 12/17/2013 2:20 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 17 Dec 2013, at 07:06, meekerdb wrote: On 12/16/2013 10:02 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 11:56 PM, Stephen Paul King > wrote: Yes, but why are you being anthropocentric? I thought tha

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 12/17/2013 1:51 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 17 Dec 2013, at 02:03, meekerdb wrote: On 12/16/2013 4:41 PM, LizR wrote: On 17 December 2013 13:07, meekerdb > wrote: In a sense, one can be more certain about arithmetical reality than the physical reali

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 18 December 2013 07:32, meekerdb wrote: > > But I don't have to believe true=exists. > > It seems to me this parallels your comment that the difference between "maths and matter" is that we can prove that mathematical truths are true (or words to that effect - sorry posting in haste. Hope you

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 12/17/2013 1:20 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Dec 2013, at 22:14, meekerdb wrote: On 12/16/2013 12:40 PM, LizR wrote: On 17 December 2013 08:06, meekerdb > wrote: JKC makes a big point of the complete separation of quantum worlds, although Everett did

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 12/17/2013 1:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: 1+1 = 1 in some context too, like with clouds. This does not change the interpretation of Peano or Robinson axioms, it just shows the trivial facts that elementary arithmetic does not applied to this or that. Your critics on arithmetic is like "group

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Stephen Paul King < stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: >> Are you saying 17 may evolve to no longer be prime? >> > > > Yes! Consider a universe with only 16 objects in it. OK there are only 16 objects in the universe, but those 16 objects can be arranged into 2^1

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

I have 10 digits and 2^10 = 1024, so I can make any binary number from 0 to 1023 using my fingers, if I can either raise or lower each one independantly (which is quite hard in practice). Of course using my toes as well, I could count to over a million. On 18 December 2013 05:08, Jason Resch wro

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