> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > IME Zen is more effortless than TM since one does nothing with
mind.
> > It's a very "bare" attention, no intention per se. I
particularly
> liked
> > their walking meditationwhat a great way to integrate.
Vaj has
Effort is a relative term. Zen is considered a difficult path by many...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On May 19, 2005, at 1:20 PM, jim_flanegin wrote:
>
> > 'Effortless' is relative after all. And compared to that form of zen
> > meditation where the
Ack sorry to all for any messages still going to private email. please
forward them to the group. This is the 3rd time that I've asked for
messages to stop bouncing. Maybe this time it will stick.
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--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On May 19, 2005, at 2:00 PM, Rick wrote:
>
> >> Well you can "think that", but does that make it so? Does
> > stating "I
> >> dissolved the car I drove to Ottumwa in" dissolve the car or
> > change
> >> that you got there by
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Rick:
>
>
> On May 19, 2005, at 12:35 PM, Rick wrote:
>
> > The real issue as far as I am concerned is shown by your
> > statement "to not use effort, we must dissolve method, no?".
>
> Yeah I think that's an important p
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On May 19, 2005, at 11:31 AM, Rick wrote:
>
> >
> > You are confusing the TM claim of effortless with the attendant
> > instructions. Initiating the sounding of the mantra by the mind is
> > an effort that when allowed to fa
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It has actually taken me a long time to understand how to let TM
> occur in an effortless manner. Any kind of modification of the
> mindstuff initiated by the "doer" requires effort. When thoughts
are
> no longer present
--- jim_flanegin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > If you are doing it correctly, the level of
> effort/effortlessness
> > > remains consistent, though the subjective
> experience manifests
> as
> > > more or le
!
--- jim_flanegin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> so Peter we can conclude that this entire exchange
> including yours
> can be summed up as 'Now and Zen', Ja?
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter Sutphen
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > --- Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
>
so Peter we can conclude that this entire exchange including yours
can be summed up as 'Now and Zen', Ja?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter Sutphen
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > On May 19, 2005, at 12:37 PM, jim_flanegin wrote:
> >
> > > I
--- Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On May 19, 2005, at 12:37 PM, jim_flanegin wrote:
>
> > I thought this was where you were headed. please
> disregrd my last
> > question. Though I would add that any description
> in words must
> > necessarily appear to describe an effort...which
> is why y
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > If you are doing it correctly, the level of
effort/effortlessness
> > remains consistent, though the subjective experience manifests
as
> > more or less clear. Which you then associate with more or less
> > eff
On May 19, 2005, at 3:14 PM, shempmcgurk wrote:
> From what you say above, I infer that one can be doing TM correctly
> yet if one were to ask me during a checking procedure whether "it
> was easy" I very well may say "no" because I am associating
> the "less clear" experience with "more effort".
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> probably just the experience of the vehicle traveling over a
> smoother road vs a rougher road previously.
>
> ...though I tend to agree with Vaj when he talks about the mantra
> being successively transcended th
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On May 19, 2005, at 11:31 AM, Rick wrote:
>
> >
> > You are confusing the TM claim of effortless with the attendant
> > instructions. Initiating the sounding of the mantra by the mind is
> > an effort that when allowed to fa
on 5/19/05 12:39 PM, shempmcgurk at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I find it keeps getting more and more effortless. Over and over
> again, one
>> has the experience, "OK, now I'm doing it correctly."
>
>
>
> This is pr
On May 19, 2005, at 2:00 PM, Rick wrote:
>> Well you can "think that", but does that make it so? Does
> stating "I
>> dissolved the car I drove to Ottumwa in" dissolve the car or
> change
>> that you got there by a car? No, it doesn't. Similarly samapatti
> does
>> not dissolve mantra--it takes y
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Rick:
>
>
> On May 19, 2005, at 12:35 PM, Rick wrote:
>
> > The real issue as far as I am concerned is shown by your
> > statement "to not use effort, we must dissolve method, no?".
>
> Yeah I think that's an important p
ok. FWIW I really like the 'feel' of Zen monasteries. Many years back
I stayed at a hotel in either Tokyo or Yokahama and there was a
monastery right next door. Beautiful and peaceful, and unassuming...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On May 19, 2005, a
probably just the experience of the vehicle traveling over a
smoother road vs a rougher road previously.
...though I tend to agree with Vaj when he talks about the mantra
being successively transcended through many levels; like a parfait,
sometimes it is fruit and other times whipped cream.
I
Good question...perhaps because they are. Or perhaps a better way to
put it is that the knowledge of spritual techniques must be
disseminated, in order to make them available to the masses (me = one
of the masses).
Then in order to attempt to bridge the gap between teacher and
student, the te
On May 19, 2005, at 1:36 PM, jim_flanegin wrote:
> Is there somewhere I can find a good description of the walking
> meditation you mention? That sounds like it might be enjoyable.
I'd just search with that and Zen. I did a mantra accumulation retreat
at a Zen monastery once and they required m
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I find it keeps getting more and more effortless. Over and over
again, one
> has the experience, "OK, now I'm doing it correctly."
This is precisely my experience.
Yet when I have it, I sometimes say to myself: does
you are probably right. I investigated zen a little before I started
TM, and I liked it, but I was too full of mental noise at the time to
take advantage of it...and didn't want to be hit on the back! ;)
So for a relatively unevolved soul such as myself, I found the 'baby
steps' inherent in TM
On May 19, 2005, at 1:20 PM, jim_flanegin wrote:
> Well I guess even spiritual techniques must be marketed.
Why?
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<*> To visit your gro
Nah.
- Original Message -
From:
Peter
Sutphen
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 10:18
AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: TM and
the Disease of Effort
A truly effortless meditation can only occur whenthere
are no vasanas
On May 19, 2005, at 1:20 PM, jim_flanegin wrote:
> 'Effortless' is relative after all. And compared to that form of zen
> meditation where the master strikes the student to maintain
> mindfulness, and some other techniques, TM could be considered
> effortless, though I'll agree once the practitio
I see. Well I guess even spiritual techniques must be marketed.
Similar to the 'how to get there from here' that Rick C. was talking
about. Harmless as long as no fraud is involved.
'Effortless' is relative after all. And compared to that form of zen
meditation where the master strikes the stud
On May 19, 2005, at 12:37 PM, jim_flanegin wrote:
> I thought this was where you were headed. please disregrd my last
> question. Though I would add that any description in words must
> necessarily appear to describe an effort...which is why you said what
> you had said earlier about it being ind
On May 19, 2005, at 12:34 PM, jim_flanegin wrote:
> If there is truly no method, why is it still called 'meditation' vs
> putting the attention on nothingness or some such? And then the act of
> moving the attention still consists of effort, doesn't it?
That question is where the saying: "medita
Hi Rick:
On May 19, 2005, at 12:35 PM, Rick wrote:
> The real issue as far as I am concerned is shown by your
> statement "to not use effort, we must dissolve method, no?".
Yeah I think that's an important part of it.
>
> Well that is so easy to say and I think that it is correct but how
> do
I thought this was where you were headed. please disregrd my last
question. Though I would add that any description in words must
necessarily appear to describe an effort...which is why you said what
you had said earlier about it being indescribable...
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On May 19, 2005, at 11:31 AM, Rick wrote:
>
> >
> > You are confusing the TM claim of effortless with the attendant
> > instructions. Initiating the sounding of the mantra by the mind
is
> > an effort that when allowed to f
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> To not use effort, we must dissolve method, no?
If there is truly no method, why is it still called 'meditation' vs
putting the attention on nothingness or some such? And then the act of
moving the attention still consists
my experience has always been that it is effortless. The only time
it wasn't was sometime in the first few years when I was all hung up
on getting a particular experience from it, and then I'd use
innappropriate effort and get headaches.
For about the last twenty, though, it has been like, oh
On May 19, 2005, at 11:18 AM, Peter Sutphen wrote:
> A truly effortless meditation can only occur when
> there are no vasanas in the mind. That is, you're
> already enlightened.
This is why it's said that effortless meditation is not performed by
normal humans, but by buddhas (awakened ones).
On May 19, 2005, at 11:31 AM, Rick wrote:
>
> You are confusing the TM claim of effortless with the attendant
> instructions. Initiating the sounding of the mantra by the mind is
> an effort that when allowed to fall away leaves an effortless state.
>
Actually, effort (prayatna) is well defined
I find it keeps getting more and more effortless. Over and over again, one
has the experience, "OK, now I'm doing it correctly." Maybe as Peter
implies, with enlightenment it becomes infinitely effortless and there are
no more shifts to greater effortlessness.
To subscribe, send a message to:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter Sutphen
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A truly effortless meditation can only occur when
> there are no vasanas in the mind. That is, you're
> already enlightened. There is always a very subtle
> effort in any meditation. You think the mantra, you're
> sti
I'm laughing now. Sorry...just a sucker for silly humor.
"Llundrub" wrote:
then Vaj wrote:
then "Lundrub" wrote:
Then one gets the picture.
What picture is that ;-)?
The Mona Lisa.
To subscribe, send a message to:
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It has actually taken me a long time to understand how to let TM
occur in an effortless manner. Any kind of modification of the
mindstuff initiated by the "doer" requires effort. When thoughts are
no longer present yet awareness remains then that is transcendental
consciousness, and that is eff
A truly effortless meditation can only occur when
there are no vasanas in the mind. That is, you're
already enlightened. There is always a very subtle
effort in any meditation. You think the mantra, you're
still, you place the attention on the "I" thought. But
this effort is always trtanscended tho
13
AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: TM and
the Disease of Effort
On May 19, 2005, at 9:56 AM, Llundrub wrote:
Seeing
through the mind its very ground, ascertaining that and never losing it.Does this involve
effort in your opinion?
To subscribe, send a message to:
[EMAIL PROTECT
Not really. But then it was just
pointed out. At times though I am going crazy and lose it.
- Original Message -
From:
Vaj
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 9:13
AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: TM and
the Disease of Effort
On
On May 19, 2005, at 9:56 AM, Llundrub wrote:
Seeing through the mind its very ground, ascertaining that and never losing it.
Does this involve effort in your opinion?
On May 19, 2005, at 9:47 AM, cardemaister wrote:
> PYS I 12:
>
> abhyaasa-vairaagyaabhyaaM tan-nirodhaH
>
> Taimni's translation:
>
> Their [of the vRtti-s] suppression (is brought about)
> by persistent practice and non-attachment.
>
> I 13:
>
> tatra sthitau yatno 'bhyaasaH
>
> /abhyaasa/ is th
Seeing through the mind its very
ground, ascertaining that and never losing it.
- Original Message -
From:
claudiouk
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 7:49
AM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: TM and the
Disease of Effort
For
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> on 5/19/05 8:04 AM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> >
> > On May 19, 2005, at 8:49 AM, claudiouk wrote:
> >
> >> For comparison's sake, what then would be the instructions for a
truly
> >> effortless, "formless"
on 5/19/05 8:04 AM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> On May 19, 2005, at 8:49 AM, claudiouk wrote:
>
>> For comparison's sake, what then would be the instructions for a truly
>> effortless, "formless" meditation?
>
> Probably impossible to describe by typing. If often requires a type of
> "p
On May 19, 2005, at 8:49 AM, claudiouk wrote:
> For comparison's sake, what then would be the instructions for a truly
> effortless, "formless" meditation?
Probably impossible to describe by typing. If often requires a type of
"pointing out" instruction whereby the enlightened condition is
int
For comparison's sake, what then would be the instructions for a truly
effortless, "formless" meditation?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Is Tm "effortless"? What *is* effortless meditation?
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