Dear all,
I'm trying to find reference to a story I read some time ago (a few years,
perhaps?), and I'm hoping that either: a) I heard it from someone on this
list, or b) someone on this list heard it, too.
Anyway, it was a really cool example of a real-world genetic algorithm,
having to do with
I remember it too! It seems that individual high producers were also
bullies, tending to stomp on other hens' eggs and attack the other
hens. So by breeding these hens, they created entire pens of nothing
but psychotic killer hens, stomping each other's eggs and tearing each
other apart.
But by lo
You do realize how much that sounds like a description of FRIAM, don't you?
;-}
--Doug
On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 7:17 AM, James Steiner wrote:
> I remember it too! It seems that individual high producers were also
> bullies, tending to stomp on other hens' eggs and attack the other
> hens.
>
>
>
I bet those brains would be good on toast, like calf brains.
From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of
Douglas Roberts [d...@parrot-farm.net]
Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2010 10:51 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
I believe it is referred to in the book "Unto Others" by David Sloan Wilson and
Eliot Sober.
From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Ted
Carmichael [teds...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 5:34 AM
To: The Friday
This is also applicable to most politicians. cheers, Paul
-Original Message-
From: Ted Carmichael
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Sent: Fri, Jul 9, 2010 3:34 am
Subject: [FRIAM] Real-world genetic algorithm example... help!
Dear all,
I'm trying to find ref
Ted,
Ok. So, if I am correct, this was an actual EXPERIMENT done by two
researchers at Indiana University, I think. As I "tell" the "story", it was
the practice to use individual selection to identify the most productive
chickens, but the egg production method involved crates of nine chick
LOL ... you guys crack me up.
-t
On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 9:32 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
> You do realize how much that sounds like a description of FRIAM, don't you?
>
> ;-}
>
> --Doug
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 7:17 AM, James Steiner wrote:
>
>> I remember it too! It seems that individual hig
Nick, this is perfect. Thank you!
BTW - the reason for this request is, my advisor and I were asked to write a
chapter on Complex Adaptive Systems, for a cognitive science textbook. In
it, I talk briefly about GA, and put this story about the chickens in
because I thought it was a neat example.
Ted,
I'm confused. Why would a genetic algorithm ever select a hen that produces
fewer eggs over a hen that produces more eggs?
Shawn
On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 2:57 PM, Ted Carmichael wrote:
> Nick, this is perfect. Thank you!
>
> BTW - the reason for this request is, my advisor and I were ask
Well, it wouldn't ... unless you were selecting for the lowest producing
hens.
The GA selects for the *groups *of chickens that produce the most eggs, not
the individuals. Some of those individuals may actually not produce many
eggs, but they must somehow help the ones that do produce more eggs (
It's kind of a cosmic yolk.
On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 4:47 PM, Shawn Barr wrote:
> Ted,
>
> I'm confused. Why would a genetic algorithm ever select a hen that
> produces fewer eggs over a hen that produces more eggs?
>
>
> Shawn
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 2:57 PM, Ted Carmichael wrote:
>
>> Nic
Fascinating. The original story and its appearance/discussion here.
I am writing a book on the five simple stages that projects move
through, from idea to reality.
Part of the chapter, whose midst I am in, discusses "teams", inner
and outer: the grouping of abilities and attributes requir
Shawn,
The two ways to answer your question would either be to invoke artificial
selection (i.e., because you can design a genetic algorithm to do anything you
want, just as chicken breeders can keep whichever eggs or to invoke Wilson's
"trait group selection." In trait group selection you break se
Tory:
I am part way through Scott Page's book titled _The Difference_ He
discussed the the power of diversity to
produce better groups and outcomes. Are you aware of that reference?
None, some, or much diversity
would influence the stages or at least successful completion of the
stages woul
Yup, in most cases. Sometimes limitations force unusual, possibly more
successful, resolutions. I don't know the book, will look into it.
Thanks.
Tory
On Jul 9, 2010, at 5:51 PM, Stephen Thompson wrote:
Tory:
I am part way through Scott Page's book titled The Difference He
discussed th
Tory --
How does this relate (if at all) to the simplistic group dynamics model I
learned in business school (attributed to Bruce Tuckman)?
forming
storming
norming
performing
At a minimum, I'm missing a stage, and I'm sure there's much more to your
analysis. Excuse my speculations.
- Cla
It's a great story, but it's not a genetic algorithm as we normally think
about it. It's really just breeding. For one thing, no computer was
involved. The point of the whole thing is to establish the notion of group
selection, which was forbidden in the biological world for a while. This
experim
I should also have added that unlike GAs in which one is manipulating an
explicit genome, there was no explicit genome in this experiment.
Russ
On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 6:18 PM, Russ Abbott wrote:
> It's a great story, but it's not a genetic algorithm as we normally think
> about it. It's reall
But it might only be for the larger good of the tribe and this might be
what's behind our tribal (crate o' chickens) mentalities as a species?
Even if tribes enrich our culture they do tend to go to war with each
other. I wonder how it changes with scale: local (crate), regional
(farm), nation
Russ,
Completely agreed.
I'm not sure how one would connect the chicken stuff in a pretty way to
standard computer genetic algorithms. I suppose one could relate them together
to suggest the need for variation in "selection" methods when using GAs. That's
Ted's part. I only claimed to know how the
1) concerning using the group method to retain positive features in future
generations -- could we use that in reverse? Meaning, if we think, as I do,
that human population needs to be reduced slowly, if we found groups of
humans who had fewer children, and gave them some sort of incentives to have
NB, in a computer GA, we'd just mix-n-match the hens genes. In the
real world, you can't get more hens without roosters, or a least
without their "input", and there's no mixing of between the hens at
all.
~~James
On 7/9/10, Russ Abbott wrote:
> I should also have added that unlike GAs in which o
Dunno. Not familiar with that. One aim of mine with this book is to
phrase these ideas in a way that the beloved General Public can use
them. Not just B-school types. I want the basic concept to be
generally accessible. Needs to be, after all.
Will look into this.
Has it affected how you co
Not all of us are run by our lizard brains. Speak for yourself, white
male person. I haven't gone to war with nobody, despite much
provocation.
Seriously, check out Don Beck and SDI for a useful system that places
tribal values in a developmental continuum: we do in fact outgrow the
crate
Ha! I knew someone would complain about that.
First of all, Eric is correct: the main point of the story - beyond a nice,
illustrative example of how a GA works - is the need to properly define a
fitness function. In the case of individual chickens, the fitness function
was ill-defined and didn'
Wow ... it is a small world sometimes. We started talking about Genetic
Algorithms on a different thread. So of course I was thinking about
Dr. Michalewicz, who taught a class in GA that I took a few years ago, and
(literally) wrote the book on the subject.
And then the very next thread I read i
It's not a good example as an illustration of GA because (1) the "selection"
mechanism to move from one generation to the next is essentially select the
best and shake it up. At best you might call that elitism plus mutation. But
it is not representative of GA. (2) it has no explicit representation
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