Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats

Marcus, can't claim to understand you fully, here, but your use of the word, sovereignty, made me think you might have something to contribute to a quandary I found myself in recently. I was on a zoom with a bunch of people. First they talked about emergence, and I figured I understand that

Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats

I would go with this so long as we agree it's bidirectional. I learn who I am from watching you and you learn who you are from watching me and we both learn who we are by watching them. n Nicholas Thompson Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology Clark University thompnicks...@gmail.com

Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats

I'm not Marcus but a classical example is mental events causing physical events. Note the use of mental language. --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 1:12 PM wrote: > Marcus, > > can't claim to understand you fully, he

Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats

If one allows stygmergy as a form of downward causation, I can understand it. So I guess I am looking for the simplest kind of example of self assembly: i.e., where something of a higher order improves itself by improving the arrangement of its parts. Or places constraints on its parts to be g

Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats

Scratching oneself? I'm not trying to be a pain. --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 1:32 PM wrote: > If one allows stygmergy as a form of downward causation, I can understand > it. So I guess I am looking for the simp

Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats

The bite causes the irritation causes the itch causes the slap causes the removal of the mosquito. And the slap causes the mosquito to be gone and relieves the irritation. So that is definitely downward causation. But this is all in the context of a complex organization that has already been

Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats

Well, the point I was making is that the physics Marcus is claiming must be exercised/computed *without* shared structure will *usually* result in shared structure. I.e. it'll be a rare thing for any component to be completely alien to another component. Now, "recognition" of any extant common

Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats

Nick, Let's say I have a language designed to work with sticks, where for instance, it makes sense to name certain relations *Triangle*. Additionally, let's assume that the language is detailed enough to include less obvious relations such as those which relate sticks to trees to soil and water. W

Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats

dual fields, Nick, dual fields. -- Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.c

Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats

A simple — stymergic — example. Write down your waking blood sugar measure; then everything you eat and the time you ate it; two hours after each intake, measure and record your sugar level; and finally, your sugar level as you retire to bed. Do this for several weeks. Your behavior will change

Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats

Maturana and Varela use structural coupling at the "indiivual" before the "individual in context" before "group" before "control structures," e.g. "mind." davew On Wed, Oct 28, 2020, at 2:48 PM, Prof David West wrote: > A simple — stymergic — example. Write down your waking blood sugar measure;

Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats

…which would explain why I have never quite understood auto poeisis. It’s one of those Escher things … the hand drawing the hand. Nicholas Thompson Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology Clark University thompnicks...@gmail.com

[FRIAM] high turnout and tight races?

From: https://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2020/Pres/Maps/Oct28.html#item-7 "6. High turnout makes razor-thin victories, like the ones Trump notched in Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania in 2016, much less likely." Is that true? I've always heard that tight races lead to higher turnout, which w

Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats

Jon, Is a steam governor a case of downward causation? This question will reveal, no doubt, that I don't understand your previous answer, but perhaps others will explain it to me. I am always troubled by the notion of "self-assembly" since the self that is assembling is never, by definition, t

Re: [FRIAM] high turnout and tight races?

I predict that Biden will win by a large margin and that the outcome will be clear on election night notwithstanding any outstanding uncounted votes. Young people are voting in unprecedented numbers and are reportedly voting against Trump. Similarly the elderly, who favored Trump over Clinton by

Re: [FRIAM] high turnout and tight races?

So, what about the question I asked? You have no opinion on whether high turnout negatively or positively correlates with narrow victories? On 10/28/20 4:52 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote: > I predict that Biden will win by a large margin and that the outcome will be > clear on election night notwith

Re: [FRIAM] high turnout and tight races?

I'm saying that in this election there will be high turnout and not a very close election. --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 5:59 PM uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote: > So, what about the question I asked? You have no opinion on whether

Re: [FRIAM] high turnout and tight races?

[sigh] N=1 doesn't make for good estimates of correlation. I'm guessing you have no opinion on the question but prefer to answer a question that nobody asked. >8^D On 10/28/20 5:00 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote: > I'm saying that in this election there will be high turnout and not a very > close ele

Re: [FRIAM] high turnout and tight races?

In 1964 Johnson beat Goldwater by 60 to 40. The Kennedy/Nixon and Gore/Bush elections were extremely close. In all three elections the turnout was between 35 and 40 percent. --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 6:00 PM Fr

Re: [FRIAM] high turnout and tight races?

N = 3 is slightly better. But I don't have time or incentive to do a detailed statistical analysis. --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 6:14 PM Frank Wimberly wrote: > In 1964 Johnson beat Goldwater by 60 to 40. The Ke

Re: [FRIAM] high turnout and tight races?

I would think that the more people who vote the less likely a tie or close outcome becomes, simply by the larger number of ways you can miss with more votes in play. -- rec -- On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 8:17 PM Frank Wimberly wrote: > N = 3 is slightly better. But I don't have time or incentive

Re: [FRIAM] high turnout and tight races?

I think that Republicans make up way less than half of the population, but the people who are traditionally less inclined to vote, would vote Democrat if they voted. This is responsible for Republicans lately getting very slightly over half the votes cast. I further believe that most of the newly

Re: [FRIAM] high turnout and tight races?

Arghhh, I meant to write that I’ve warmed to the idea of mandatory voting, not warned. The perils of typing on a phone. On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 9:40 PM Gary Schiltz wrote: > I think that Republicans make up way less than half of the population, but > the people who are traditionally less incline

Re: [FRIAM] high turnout and tight races?

HANG ON, Roger Variance decreases with N. Nicholas Thompson Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology Clark University thompnicks...@gmail.com https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ From: Friam On

Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats

Thanks Eric. Some unsophisticated “larding” below. Nicholas Thompson Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology Clark University thompnicks...@gmail.com https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ From:

Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats

Hi Nick, I think something causes dreams to have the narrative order they have. Whatever it is probably is put in place by all the other functions that the brain is asked to perform, along with the many constraints on how it is possible to make a brain. So dreams receive all that structure to