On Thu, 7 Apr 2005, Bastian Balthazar Bux wrote:
> yes if the user was using windoze only as telnet client (from a dos
> session) to a unix machine.
> Otherwise your switching time assumption are a bit too optimistic.
Not really:
http://software.itmanagersjournal.com/article.pl?sid=05/03/23/18022
A. Khattri wrote:
On Tue, 5 Apr 2005, Robert G. Hays wrote:
I refer back to my 'oh i forgot' emai... That said, yes, *Some*
lessons, but it shouldn't have to be more than a day's-worth for most
users. Then maybe 1 day, *max*, for each *complex* application. I
remember DOS 2.0; thought that then
On Tue, 5 Apr 2005, Robert G. Hays wrote:
> I refer back to my 'oh i forgot' emai... That said, yes, *Some*
> lessons, but it shouldn't have to be more than a day's-worth for most
> users. Then maybe 1 day, *max*, for each *complex* application. I
> remember DOS 2.0; thought that then, think th
Below...
Philip Webb wrote:
050405 Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
050405 "Eric S. Johansson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
maybe one should stop blaming the user
and consider that X11 is crying for a good UI for configuration.
I hear Mandrake have quite a nice GUI configuration tool these days.
OK, *thats* the focusing of the comment that I mentioned. Had that been
there in the first place, I wouldn't'a jumped.
Still no reason not to have nice tools though, for those making the
transition... could even 'waste'(not!) time telling un Gentoo-virgins
whatinhell is actually being done, t
On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 09:03:03 -0400, Eric S. Johansson wrote:
> the first time you install gentoo, it is amazing,
> the second time you install gentoo, it is empowering,
> the third time you install gentoo, it is wearying
There was mention of an automated installer in GWN some months back,
followe
Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 22:45:21 -0700 Robert Persson
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| But what's wrong with tools to make things easier if they don't impair
| the performance of the system? Why not have a nice simple
| X-configurator that does the job of the SuSE or mandrake equiv
On April 5, 2005 10:56 pm, quoth Ciaran McCreesh:
> On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 22:45:21 -0700 Robert Persson
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> | But what's wrong with tools to make things easier if they don't impair
> | the performance of the system? Why not have a nice simple
> | X-configurator that doe
050405 Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> 050405 "Eric S. Johansson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> maybe one should stop blaming the user
>> and consider that X11 is crying for a good UI for configuration.
> I hear Mandrake have quite a nice GUI configuration tool these days.
IIRC when i installed Gentoo in
On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 22:45:21 -0700 Robert Persson
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| But what's wrong with tools to make things easier if they don't impair
| the performance of the system? Why not have a nice simple
| X-configurator that does the job of the SuSE or mandrake equivalents?
Get coding :)
On April 5, 2005 02:28 pm, quoth Ciaran McCreesh:
> On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 17:22:52 -0400 "Robert G. Hays"
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> | People don't *want* to learn computers (making the training that much
> | harder & slower), and, truthfully, they shouldn't *Need* to, beyond
> | the *Very* ba
On April 5, 2005 02:47 pm, quoth Robert G. Hays:
> Problem is, I am about out of time, and do I really need to start a new
> learning curve? Possibly, but I am now only fighting with X & maybe
> console-format; that last could wait if it had to. But I might check U
> out if all else fails.
>
> Th
Walter Dnes wrote:
>On Tue, Apr 05, 2005 at 07:07:35PM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote
>
>
>
>>Having listened to said usability experts and found that all the
>>software that I like completely breaks at least five of their seven
>>heuristics, I wouldn't be inclined to take them too seriously... Th
On Tue, Apr 05, 2005 at 07:07:35PM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote
> Having listened to said usability experts and found that all the
> software that I like completely breaks at least five of their seven
> heuristics, I wouldn't be inclined to take them too seriously... Their
> main premise seems to
On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 12:14:44 +1200 Nick Rout <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| > Why? Gentoo isn't the solution for everything. Sometimes a different
| > distribution does the job you want better. Catering for newbies is
| > one of those things that other distributions do better. No point
| > wasting ef
On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 23:48:32 +0100
Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 18:34:39 -0400 "Eric S. Johansson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> | Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> | >
> | > I hear Mandrake have quite a nice GUI configuration tool these days.
> |
> | wonderful. if it is gpl, let us tak
Ciaran McCreesh ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) scribbled:
> Did I mention that vim is the pinnacle of user interface design?
Fire it up!
Cooper.
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Below...
Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 17:22:52 -0400 "Robert G. Hays"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| People don't *want* to learn computers (making the training that much
| harder & slower), and, truthfully, they shouldn't *Need* to, beyond
| the *Very* basics.
That might be the case
On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 18:34:39 -0400 "Eric S. Johansson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
| Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
| >
| > I hear Mandrake have quite a nice GUI configuration tool these days.
|
| wonderful. if it is gpl, let us take it for our use too.
Why? Gentoo isn't the solution for everything. Som
On Apr 5, 2005 5:07 PM, Robert G. Hays <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Here I have to -- mostly! -- agree with Eric...I am a highly-knowledgeable ~18-year programmer, multi-lang, multi-arch,even was handed 66x lins low-comment Fortran, which I'd never seen(Fortran) before to convert to C, no headers, boo
< scene: robert wearing "stupid" hat... :( >
Not quite what I meant! ( although I arguing, neither... ;) )
rgh.
Eric S. Johansson wrote:
Robert G. Hays wrote:
(jump gently) does the reason involve ego?? richard sizing??
"richard sizing" ??;
Well, human nature below, anyway.
below indeed.
Below...
Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 18:05:00 -0400 "Eric S. Johansson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
| Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
| > On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 17:07:41 -0400 "Robert G. Hays"
| > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| > | I have now spent 8 *Full* days trying to get gentoo to install in
|
Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
I hear Mandrake have quite a nice GUI configuration tool these days.
wonderful. if it is gpl, let us take it for our use too.
--
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.03/view.html?pg=5
The result of the duopoly that currently defines "competition" is that
prices and service
Well Said!
rgh.
Eric S. Johansson wrote:
Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 17:07:41 -0400 "Robert G. Hays"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| I have now spent 8 *Full* days trying to get gentoo to install in
the | first place, and still have 80x25 consoles &
640x480x16-color... This
| not lea
Leo wrote:
Robert:
#ifdef FLAMES
I can say that I haven't had the time/opportunity to convert fortran
to c. I haven't ever programmed in fortran and my C experience is
limited to textbook exersises and a few other smalltime projects.
Perhaps these differences are not significant when deciding
On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 18:05:00 -0400 "Eric S. Johansson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
| Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
| > On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 17:07:41 -0400 "Robert G. Hays"
| > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| > | I have now spent 8 *Full* days trying to get gentoo to install in
| > | the first place, and stil
Robert G. Hays wrote:
(jump gently) does the reason involve ego?? richard sizing??
"richard sizing" ??;
Well, human nature below, anyway.
below indeed.
richard == dick
--
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.03/view.html?pg=5
The result of the duopoly that currently defines "competition" is
I refer back to my 'oh i forgot' emai... That said, yes, *Some*
lessons, but it shouldn't have to be more than a day's-worth for most
users. Then maybe 1 day, *max*, for each *complex* application. I
remember DOS 2.0; thought that then, think that now.
rgh.
Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
On Tue, 05
Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 17:07:41 -0400 "Robert G. Hays"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| I have now spent 8 *Full* days trying to get gentoo to install in the
| first place, and still have 80x25 consoles & 640x480x16-color... This
| not learning, this is abusive.
Maybe you should
In-lining...
Eric S. Johansson wrote:
Robert G. Hays wrote:
Here I have to -- mostly! -- agree with Eric...
nobody is perfect...
Including me!
chops disclosure?
before I was injured in 1994, I spent 18 years in software development
Me: '84. Why I got into computers in the first place. Mutual
Robert:
#ifdef FLAMES
I can say that I haven't had the time/opportunity to convert fortran to
c. I haven't ever programmed in fortran and my C experience is limited
to textbook exersises and a few other smalltime projects. Perhaps these
differences are not significant when deciding if _I_ am "
Problem is, I am about out of time, and do I really need to start a new
learning curve? Possibly, but I am now only fighting with X & maybe
console-format; that last could wait if it had to. But I might check U
out if all else fails.
Thanks,
rgh.
Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 17:
Robert G. Hays wrote:
Here I have to -- mostly! -- agree with Eric...
nobody is perfect...
I am a highly-knowledgeable ~18-year programmer, multi-lang, multi-arch,
even was handed 66x lins low-comment Fortran, which I'd never seen
(Fortran) before to convert to C, no headers, books, etc. Not onl
Yes, *EXPERIENCED* user. (& please forgive all-caps -- wasn't 'yelling',
just raising my voice a bit.)
Yes, I personally know the cycle you mentioned, unfortunately!
And yes, I think Gentoo, Slackware, etc is where that experienced user
should go *once* *they* *are* *experienced* *enough*. The
On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 17:22:52 -0400 "Robert G. Hays"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| People don't *want* to learn computers (making the training that much
| harder & slower), and, truthfully, they shouldn't *Need* to, beyond
| the *Very* basics.
That might be the case if they're running Ubuntu or Li
On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 17:07:41 -0400 "Robert G. Hays"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| I have now spent 8 *Full* days trying to get gentoo to install in the
| first place, and still have 80x25 consoles & 640x480x16-color... This
| not learning, this is abusive.
Maybe you should give Ubuntu a try.
--
Oh, I forgot something...
Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
Which is why naive users shouldn't be unleashed upon computers without
some kind of training first.
Ok, but then the company that doesn't keep up ends up having to charge
more for their products than the companies that do, thus they lose so
much
James Hiscock wrote:
...and this is different from the software testers/SQA/QA folks that
are employed by said manager (assuming the GD is lucky enough to have
folks to do their dirty work for them, of course, and that the GD is
actually someone other than the original developer...)?
Either way, th
Here I have to -- mostly! -- agree with Eric...
I am a highly-knowledgeable ~18-year programmer, multi-lang, multi-arch,
even was handed 66x lins low-comment Fortran, which I'd never seen
(Fortran) before to convert to C, no headers, books, etc. Not only
succeded in ~12 hours, but noticed & fix
> > 3. GD hears UE tell him he did everything wrong.
>
> 3a GD runs to manager and cries (there is no crying in software).
> manager tells UE to go [away] and leave the GD alone.
...and this is different from the software testers/SQA/QA folks that
are employed by said manager (assuming the GD is
Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
< And if you don't want to learn, you're using the wrong distribution...>...
*THATS* for sure!
(But if knowledgeable-I *ever* get it working fully, I think it will be *well*
worthwhiule.)
rgh.
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 15:54:54 -0400 "Eric S. Johansson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
| that's because they are the users. it appears to me you're advocating
| the equivalent of only designing cars for Formula One race car drivers
| because that is it's best to have to learn how to use powerful,
| ex
Richard Fish wrote:
Why do I get the feeling that the following sequence occurs far too
often? At least steps 1-6...
1. GUI designer/programmer (GD) implements functional GUI for most
program features. Has some hidden, difficult to discover, but highly
useful features.
s.b.
requires multiple
Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 14:57:31 -0400 "Eric S. Johansson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>wrote:
>| I think I understand. The usability experts were using a language not
>| common to geeks.
>
>The problem is that the usability experts are (deliberately) thinking
>like the average comput
Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
The problem is that the usability experts are (deliberately) thinking
like the average computer illiterate man on the street, rather than
considering the idea that maybe it's best to have to learn how to use
powerful, expensive equipment.
that's because they are the users. i
On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 14:57:31 -0400 "Eric S. Johansson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
| > Having listened to said usability experts and found that all the
| > software that I like completely breaks at least five of their seven
| > heuristics, I wouldn't be inclined to take them too seriously...
| > The
Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 08:21:30 -0400 "Eric S. Johansson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
| Now if developers can get off of their ego trips and listen to
| usability experts who have been telling them for the past 30 years
| how to make software more user-friendly, we might end up
On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 08:21:30 -0400 "Eric S. Johansson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
| Now if developers can get off of their ego trips and listen to
| usability experts who have been telling them for the past 30 years
| how to make software more user-friendly, we might end up with
| computers (and
Neil Bothwick wrote:
On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 08:21:30 -0400, Eric S. Johansson wrote:
You shouldn't make statements about all MUAs until you have tried all
MUAs. In Sylpheed-claws I can send you a mail directly by selecting Reply
to sender from the menu. I can also set up a default reply address for a
On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 08:21:30 -0400, Eric S. Johansson wrote:
> try: "It all boils down to the fact that *all* MUA's are broken big time
> in terms of useability." and you'll be closer to the truth. I cannot
> send you a direct piece of e-mail without manually entering your
> address.
You shou
Walter Dnes wrote:
First of all, "the standard for most lists" that you talk about *USED*
to be to do exactly what this list does right now. Then Chip Rosenthal
came along and put up a whine at
http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html which can be summarized
as follows... "Duh, I'm an imco
On Mon, Apr 04, 2005 at 09:01:42AM -0400, Dave Nebinger wrote
> > Why people use "Reply to all" on a list such as this I have no idea...
>
> Because the standard for most lists is that a reply goes to the
> original sender only and 'reply to all' is used to send a message
> to the OP and the list.
> Why people use "Reply to all" on a list such as this I have no idea...
Because the standard for most lists is that a reply goes to the original
sender only and 'reply to all' is used to send a message to the OP and the
list.
The gentoo list is the only one that we have seen that violates this p
Tom Wesley wrote:
>Why people use "Reply to all" on a list such as this I have no idea...
>
>
For me, it is habit. I always use "Reply to all" for personal and work
email, and well, I forget sometimes that reply-to-all causes a problem
on Gentoo-user. I filed a bug report on thunderbird for t
On Sun, 2005-04-03 at 10:22 -0400, Charles Marcus wrote:
> Am I the only one seeing these?
>
>
> Charles
Many people are using the "Reply to all" function of their mail clients
to reply to the list. This causes a mail to be sent to
gentoo-user@gentoo.org and [EMAIL PROTECTED], so two end up
on
On Sun, 2005-04-03 at 10:22 -0400, Charles Marcus wrote:
> Am I the only one seeing these?
Nope.
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