Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

On Oct 26, 2005, at 10:59, Travis Roy wrote: As others have pointed out, if you have a cell phone you can already be tracked. Case in point: http://www.belleville.com/mld/belleville/news/local/12849605.htm "There is absolutely no privacy threat whatsoever," said Pete Rahn, director of the

Re: Toll Booths (Was: Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th)

> I don't think this is true. In nearly all the cases I have seen, they are > taking existing cash-only booths and making them cash and Fast Lane. > I have not see one case where they have reduced existing Fast Lane booths > to > dual use. Exits 9 and 10 are often down to only one dedicated FastLa

Re: Toll Booths (Was: Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th)

On Thursday 27 October 2005 9:41 am, Neil Schelly wrote: > My qualm here is that they are turning FastLane-only booths to > FastLane/Cash booths outside of the city at least.  That effectively > makes another cash booth and takes away a FastLane booth.  The cash > booths are getting quicker and the

Re: Toll Booths (Was: Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th)

> Has anyone been to Atlanta? The EZ-Pass style toll system is what it > should be like anywhere they have an auto-payment type system. You can go > 80mph through the toll plaza. They have two larger lanes on the left side > of the highway and you can zip through like it wasn't even there. Your > l

Re: Toll Booths (Was: Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th)

On Thursday 27 October 2005 9:26 am, Bill Freeman wrote: > The "point" is for them to be able to reduce their staffing (fire > token sellers/toll collectors). What? You thought that this stuff was > for the customer's convenience? Innocence of youth, I guess. Certainly not. It all comes d

Toll Booths (Was: Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th)

Travis Roy writes: ... > Then yo go through NY and they have GATES on the EZ-Pass lanes that you > have to actually stop and wait for the gate to raise up... what's the point! The "point" is for them to be able to reduce their staffing (fire token sellers/toll collectors). What? You t

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

"Thomas M. Albright" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >> Are rental car companies responsible for the speeding violations >> of those renting? > > No; note the difference between renting and borrowing. You are paying to > use the car. Your name is in the records as the current user of the car. > If t

Re: Toll Booths (Was: Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th)

On Thursday 27 October 2005 8:16 am, Travis Roy wrote: > Has anyone been to Atlanta? The EZ-Pass style toll system is what it > should be like anywhere they have an auto-payment type system. You can > go 80mph through the toll plaza. They have two larger lanes on the left > side of the highway and

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

Brian Chabot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Plus all over they have cameras. Pointed at your license plate. You > know it wouldn't be too hard to use OCR and a stopwatch to catch you > speeding through tolls. Travis Roy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > That is probably the most important thing

Toll Booths (Was: Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th)

(However, they will ticket you if you go too fast through the toll booth). That's the one thing I don't like about the Fastpass/EZ-Pass system up here. Has anyone been to Atlanta? The EZ-Pass style toll system is what it should be like anywhere they have an auto-payment type system. You can

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

On Wednesday 26 October 2005 6:14 pm, Brian wrote: > > just as you can challenge a radar device on > > its calibration. > > Have you ever tried that? I have. It doesn't work very well. The radar > companies basically train the cops on how to defend themselves and their > radar units in court. Th

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

On Oct 26, 2005, at 19:59, Thomas M. Albright wrote: No. I don't lend things to people unless I know they know how to use them and I know what it'll be used for. tada! My ass is covered. No one but me uses my gun unless I'm right there to supervise. No one but me uses my car at all. Why is that

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

Since I started this, I've been biting my tongue to avoid adding to this thread. But my willpower just caved. :-) >> just as you can challenge a radar device on its calibration. > Have you ever tried that? I have. It doesn't work very well. While not radars, this article

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 For an Off Topic discussion, this is generating a lot of traffic. Could it be moved elsewhere? - --Bruce -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFDYBnV

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, bryan wrote: > Under this logic, if someone steals my car, then, since there's no > "paperwork" > I'm responsible for what the thief does with it. A police report is paperwork. > and if I'm not, then why am I responsible when someone borrows it ? If I > create a written

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

Under this logic, if someone steals my car, then, since there's no "paperwork" I'm responsible for what the thief does with it. and if I'm not, then why am I responsible when someone borrows it ? If I create a written document that they sign before they borrow it, am I then not responsible beca

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, Bill McGonigle wrote: > On Oct 26, 2005, at 19:12, Thomas M. Albright wrote: > > > Well ... yeah. In fact cars kill many more people each year than guns. > > So if I leant a pistol to a friend (who was duly licensed) to go shoot > at the range and he went and shot up a [ins

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, Andrew W. Gaunt wrote: > That view is simplistic and does not address the more complicated > realities, however. > KISS > Are rental car companies responsible for the speeding violations > of those renting? No; note the difference between renting and borrowing. You are payi

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

On Oct 26, 2005, at 19:12, Thomas M. Albright wrote: Well ... yeah. In fact cars kill many more people each year than guns. So if I leant a pistol to a friend (who was duly licensed) to go shoot at the range and he went and shot up a [insert harmless segment of society] you'd want me on tria

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, Bill McGonigle wrote: > On Oct 26, 2005, at 16:13, Thomas M. Albright wrote: > > > Your car should be your responsibility. If your friend can't drive > > resposibly, perhaps he shouldn't be driving your car. > > Same standard for my gun? > Well ... yeah. In fact cars kill m

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

That view is simplistic and does not address the more complicated realities, however. Are rental car companies responsible for the speeding violations of those renting? Are employers responsible for speeding violations of employees when driving company owned vehicles? Are parents responsible fo

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

On Oct 26, 2005, at 10:59, Travis Roy wrote: As others have pointed out, if you have a cell phone you can already be tracked. All this tracking and keeping info on people has long been around before RFID. The key difference is "by the government" and "without a court order". - Bill McGo

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

On Oct 26, 2005, at 16:13, Thomas M. Albright wrote: Your car should be your responsibility. If your friend can't drive resposibly, perhaps he shouldn't be driving your car. Same standard for my gun? -Bill - Bill McGonigle, Owner Work: 603.448.4440 BFC Computing, LLC

RE: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Abreau > Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 2:18 PM > To: gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org > Subject: Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID > chips Nov.

RE: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

> just as you can challenge a radar device on > its calibration. Have you ever tried that? I have. It doesn't work very well. The radar companies basically train the cops on how to defend themselves and their radar units in court. ___ gnhlug-dis

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, Andrew W. Gaunt wrote: > BTW - If a ticket were to be issued based on EZ pass data > how would it proved absolutely that the person who owns the EZ pass > was the person driving whatever vehicle was going over the speed > limit.Perhaps there are more than one dirver, perhaps t

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:15:14 -0400 Bill Sconce <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > ...A similar argument raged recently over binding RFID tags > into passports, for similar reasons. By coincidence, this today from the Washington Post. Two things jump out: no encryption on the passport; 98.5% of comm

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

On Wednesday 26 October 2005 2:17 pm, John Abreau wrote: > Brian wrote: > > Plausible, yes. But with ntp, GPS clock-syncing, etc, this is getting > > a little bit tinfoilhat-ish. > > I suppose it would make more sense to say nothing, not worry about it, > and just assume that whoever implements i

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

Brian wrote: Plausible, yes. But with ntp, GPS clock-syncing, etc, this is getting a little bit tinfoilhat-ish. I suppose it would make more sense to say nothing, not worry about it, and just assume that whoever implements it will get all the details right. "Tinfoilhat-ish" is an odd way

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 12:57:43 -0400 Jerry Feldman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wednesday 26 October 2005 12:34 pm, Travis Roy wrote: > > Your EZ-Pass transponder is linked to your car in the DB. You must give > > them a car make/model and plate number. If they don't match (they have a > > camera

RE: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

mail.gnhlug.org > Subject: Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID > chips Nov. 5th > > The thing that's always concerned me is, what happens if the > clocks on the EZ pass scanners are out of sync? If the second > scanner's clock is a few minutes behind the firs

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

Andrew W. Gaunt wrote: BTW - If a ticket were to be issued based on EZ pass data how would it proved absolutely that the person who owns the EZ pass was the person driving whatever vehicle was going over the speed limit.Perhaps there are more than one dirver, perhaps the car or pass is being loa

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

On Wednesday 26 October 2005 12:34 pm, Travis Roy wrote: > Your EZ-Pass transponder is linked to your car in the DB. You must give > them a car make/model and plate number. If they don't match (they have a > camera that looks at the plates, not sure if it tries to match them > however), then you ca

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

On Wednesday 26 October 2005 12:19 pm, Andrew W. Gaunt wrote: > Perhaps having more than one EZ pass thingy could be used to stump > the system. Use one for getting onto the toll road, the other for > gettting off (using static bags or whatever to keep the one active and > the other inactive). Won'

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

On Wednesday 26 October 2005 11:04 am, Brian Chabot wrote: > Uhh... If you're on the Mass Pike, they already have the ability to do > that. You know that paper toll ticket? It's got a time stamp. Actually Mass. Law prevents this (but any law can be changed), > Plus all over they have cameras. P

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

Perhaps having more than one EZ pass thingy could be used to stump the system. Use one for getting onto the toll road, the other for gettting off (using static bags or whatever to keep the one active and the other inactive). Presumably the system would not be smart enough to link the the two EZ pa

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

Perhaps having more than one EZ pass thingy could be used to stump the system. Use one for getting onto the toll road, the other for gettting off (using static bags or whatever to keep the one active and the other inactive). Presumably the system would not be smart enough to link the the two EZ p

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

There are highways in Canada where they actually do this and issue the speeding ticket right at the exit toll. No RFID needed. That was one of the reason I opted for the EZ-Pass, there are already plenty of ways for them to track me via my car and license plate without RFID. The fact is that

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, Paul Lussier wrote: > What good is the anti-static bag if you have to remove it to go > through the toll booths? > > Wed Oct 26 09:02:48 EDT 2005 Brian Chabot Mass. Pike/Rt. 128 > Wed Oct 26 09:47:10 EDT 2005 Brian Chabot Mass. Pike/Rt. 91 > > Distance: 72 mile

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

On Wed, Oct 26, 2005 at 09:13:52AM -0400, Paul Lussier wrote: > Brian Chabot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > Over my mental protests, I do have an EZ-Pass. It came with an > > anti-static bag to put it in if you don't want to be tracked. Hell, the > > tint on my front windshield is enough to b

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

Brian Chabot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Over my mental protests, I do have an EZ-Pass. It came with an > anti-static bag to put it in if you don't want to be tracked. Hell, the > tint on my front windshield is enough to block the signal. (I really > wish they'd go back to the tokens. They w

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

Travis Roy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >> Do you have a cell phone? Careful man, very trackable. MORE >> EASILY trackable then any RFID chip, btw. > > No kidding: > > http://www.mologogo.com/waypoints/public/caveman978 > > (that's a friend of mine's commute) Neat concept actually. Fascinating

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

I don't see where HP per se. should be singled out. Maybe we should boycott Wal*Mart since they have been pushing very hard for RFID technology. And have you seen the IBM commercials where a truck is stopped by the help desk on a remote road because the RFID equipped boxes told them they were go

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

By the way, combine device specific serial numbers in the printers tag (which they probably already do) and combine it with the fact that several vendors encode device specific data in all prints from the device and you really start to have something that can be abused... Granted it is unclear

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

How about just boycotting Wal*Mart altogether? I haven't been to a Wal*Mart in (I think) 8 years. HP is not the problem. On Tue, 25 Oct 2005, Randy Edwards wrote: >On Nov. 5th there's going to be a protest at the Bedford Wal-Mart, 3:00 PM > to 4:30 PM, against HP's printers being sold with

RE: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

This statement could be taken a little further. At no point in this thread have you actually contributed anything useful. You lobbed in a comment along the lines of "just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're out to get you". Your initial comment essentially implied that you took issue

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

<<< No Message Collected >>> ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

On 10/25/05, Travis Roy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: What about the probably two dozen other cameras that are in the store?   Telling yea man, we gotta protest.   FULL FACIAL REMOVAL for the MASSES!  ;-)   Thomas

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

the eff has a few things to say about this: http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance/RFID/ Taking it a step further - imagine what happens when these things get smaller. much smaller. Like any tool, I think the technology itself is benign. It's how it gets used is the problem. e.g., being able t

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

News flash. They could do the exact same thing with bar code if they put em on the side, and mounted a bar code reader sideways. They don't even need that. they could detect when an item is picked up many ways, IR, a switch, weight sensors, motion sensors. What about the probably two dozen

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

Just to set things straight about this whole debate. I'm really not a fan of unique identifying RFID chips that can be read remotely. I made a decision to go with EZ-Pass due to the discount and convenience. I use a toll perhaps.. twice a month. The RFID badges I have in my wallet are from wo

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

On 10/25/05, Randy Edwards <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Is RFID for inventory really that big of a deal?   Yes.  The problem is that there are no restrictions in how the chips willbe used.   For example, Gillette uses RFID in its razor packages.  Gillette, in conjunction with retailers, has come u

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

  Yea, but..   Don't buy them.   The rest of us probrably will, and we'll be happy..   Don't go clogging up my damned express lane becouse you don't like a chip that can be read remotely.   Specifically, most of us just really don't care all that much.  We just want to grab our beer, soda, and

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

Jeff Kinz writes: > Kevin, I don't think you're being fair. I'm not arguing against your > position, I'm arguing against your non-response. I don't have to be fair. > Travis may have made a judgment or he may have simply accepted a default > arrangement that adds value and convenience to his li

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

Bill Sconce wrote: >Arguably it's not very different (other than the RF exposure you'll get >at the checkout counter) from a barcode tag. > > The RF exposure is a consideration, but I honestly don't think the current readers are all that powerful. You get more RF exposure walking past your own

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

I found the reference. It was indeed Bruce Schneier. "Identify people in crowds" is in the next to last paragraph. -Bill http://www.schneier.com/essay-060.html _ Does Big Brother want to watch? By Bruce Schneier Inte

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:18:49 -0400 Travis Roy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On the other hand, plans for RFID tags go beyond stickers on boxes. > > Suppose they were, say, sewn into a jacket? THEN your person becomes > > trackable well after you leave the store. A similar argument raged > >

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

On Oct 25, 2005, at 12:32, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2: I am certain that conversing with somebody such as yourself who has already made the value judgement to obtain an EZ Pass will yield absolutely no results. Isn't there a world of difference between driving down the highway and re

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

For example, Gillette uses RFID in its razor packages. Gillette, in conjunction with retailers, has come up with store shelves which snap a photo of any potential customer whenever anyone picks up a package of razors off the shelf. That could easily be done with other technologies beside

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

> I agree, I am not quite sure what all the huff about the HP printers is > about though. I'm not familiar with the group organizing the protest, but I get the impression their primary objective is to try to get the RFID issue into the public's mind. Regards, . Randy -- US citizens ja

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

On Tue, Oct 25, 2005 at 04:32:47PM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > Please, explain to me how this is a threat. > > No, I will not for the following reasons: > > 1: not relevant to this list. > > 2: I am certain that conversing with somebody such as yourself > who has already made th

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

> Is RFID for inventory really that big of a deal? Yes. The problem is that there are no restrictions in how the chips will be used. For example, Gillette uses RFID in its razor packages. Gillette, in conjunction with retailers, has come up with store shelves which snap a photo of any

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

On the other hand, plans for RFID tags go beyond stickers on boxes. Suppose they were, say, sewn into a jacket? THEN your person becomes trackable well after you leave the store. A similar argument raged recently over binding RFID tags into passports, for similar reasons. See, and these thin

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

> Considering what other devices use barcodes and that actually have > valuable data that can be stolen and reused (EZ-Pass, car keys, > Speedpass). I don't see the big deal with a RFID on a box for inventory > tracking. Arguably it's not very different (other than the RF exposure you'll get a

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

> Please, explain to me how this is a threat. No, I will not for the following reasons: 1: not relevant to this list. It was made relevant by you posting about the demonstration. And you are more then free to post to me off-list. 2: I am certain that conversing with some

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

On 10/25/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:> Please, explain to me how this is a threat.No, I will not for the following reasons: 1:  not relevant to this list.2:  I am certain that conversing with somebody such as yourselfwho has already made the value judgement to obtain an

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

> Please, explain to me how this is a threat. No, I will not for the following reasons: 1: not relevant to this list. 2: I am certain that conversing with somebody such as yourself who has already made the value judgement to obtain an EZ Pass will yield absolutely no results. 3: I'm

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

Just because *you* don't see the fear doesn't mean that there exists fear and that this fear might be justified. You've made a value judgement here; other people might come to different conclusions. That's fine, but even after reading the site (overview and FAQ). I don't see how a glorified

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

Travis Roy writes: > Considering I already carry three RFID cards in my wallet (one for > each datacenter I go to) and then one in each car (EZ Pass) and I had > one when I had an Mobil Speedpass I really don't see the fear. Just because *you* don't see the fear doesn't mean that there exists fea

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

The range isn't really that limited. There are simple plans on the 'net to build an RFID sniffer that can excite and read most RFID tags from several meters away. I agree, I am not quite sure what all the huff about the HP printers is about though. Okay, so they know I have a printer.. big dea

RE: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

The range isn't really that limited. There are simple plans on the 'net to build an RFID sniffer that can excite and read most RFID tags from several meters away. I agree, I am not quite sure what all the huff about the HP printers is about though. > -Original Message- > The range is so

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

Is RFID for inventory really that big of a deal? My understanding Wal-Mart uses them for inventory control, much like a barcode. Considering I already carry three RFID cards in my wallet (one for each datacenter I go to) and then one in each car (EZ Pass) and I had one when I had an Mobil Spee