Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

> Not if you dip into Terminal.app. When using my friends' Macs to ssh to > my computers, Terminal.app has caused me quite a lot of problems. Terminal emulation is a really tough problem. I wrote a terminal emulator once. My goal was just to have something that worked right on RSX-11, VMS, UNIX,

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

* Peter da Silva [2005-10-17 06:38 -0500]: > > I heard tho "Get a Mac" mantra so often that I started believing it > > would actually not be as hateful as the rest of software. > > But if you want Unicode to Just Work, it's your best option by far. Not if you dip into Terminal.app. When using m

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

* Luke Kanies [2005-10-17 10:02 -0500]: > On Mon, 17 Oct 2005, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > > > I get this in Aristotle's emails (gibberish instead of '), > > > > It’s because your mailer sucks. (Are you surprised?) > > I'm guessing Pine has no relationship to whether this works; I'm thinking > instead

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

> I said charset-*oblivious*. A lot of software passes around > strings without ever processing them. It would be pretty > pointless to force that sort of code to deal with encoding > issues; just make sure null termination continues to work and the > software will happily work with Unicode as well

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

> It was unclear whether you were calling the inclusion of extra > characters idiotic, or the invention of incompatible charsets in > order to express them. Both. > The former is, but before Unicode, inventing new 8-bit charsets > that were ASCII + a bunch of whatever characters were considered >

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

* Peter da Silva [2005-10-17 20:15]: > > Plus null bytes can then be part of the data, so most > > charset-oblivious software breaks. > > I thought breaking 8-bit-only software was a good thing. I said charset-*oblivious*. A lot of software passes around strings without ever processing them. It

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

* Abigail [2005-10-17 20:05]: > My terminal doesn't do Unicode (and the ones that do suck in > different ways - I'm sticking with rxvt). You may or may not want to try urxvt alias rxvt-unicode. Which is what I’m using. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis //

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

> MTAs shouldn't be interpreting any utf-8. MTA is actually an overloaded term, seeing as it incorporates mail transport agents and mail routing agents. In addition software that implements mail transport and routing includes spam filters, virus checkers, vacation and other automatic response soft

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

* Peter da Silva [2005-10-17 18:35]: > On Oct 17, 2005, at 9:26 AM, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > >Prior to Unicode it was quite customary to do what they did, > >too. > > Only for idiots. There's not enough room in 8-bits to fit all > the special characters they need, so they end up doing escaping > or

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

> Yuck, then you???re saddled with endianness issues. Good, that'll shake out the last of the big-endian systems. > Plus null bytes > can then be part of the data, so most charset-oblivious software > breaks. I thought breaking 8-bit-only software was a good thing. > Not worth it, considering t

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

> Can you explain to me why you or anyone else would bother using a curly > apostrophe? Because stupid GUI software automatically turns the one into the other, instead of treating it as a presentation issue. I mean, if the editor can tell when to do the conversion on *input*, then the display devi

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

On Mon, Oct 17, 2005 at 07:55:14PM +0200, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > * Abigail [2005-10-17 19:45]: > > If you want to send to something that looks curly, send me a > > PDF or an image. If you want to indicate you're contracting two > > words, use a apostrophe. And let *me* decide whether I want > > the

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

> > Software configured to use anything other than UTF-8 (or, at the > > very least another UTF-*) is hateful. I can???t wait until > > single-byte charsets are a thing of the past. > Variable width character sets are themselves hateful. I'll go further > and say that they are a spectacularly stu

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

* Abigail [2005-10-17 19:45]: > If you want to send to something that looks curly, send me a > PDF or an image. If you want to indicate you're contracting two > words, use a apostrophe. And let *me* decide whether I want > them straight or curly. Meanwhile everyone is using apostrophes as straigh

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

On Mon, Oct 17, 2005 at 04:51:21PM +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote: > On Mon, Oct 17, 2005 at 05:45:34PM +0200, Juerd wrote: > > Matthew Garrett skribis 2005-10-17 16:44 (+0100): > > > U+0027 is sufficiently overloaded with a large number of historical > > > meanings that it's preferable to use a mor

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

On Mon, Oct 17, 2005 at 06:04:41PM +0100, David Cantrell wrote: > On Mon, Oct 17, 2005 at 03:56:40PM +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote: > > And have to rewrite huge quantities of software. UTF-8 has its > > disadvantages, but there's very little hateful about it - it achieves > > what it sets out to d

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

On Mon, Oct 17, 2005 at 03:56:40PM +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote: > On Mon, Oct 17, 2005 at 03:36:16PM +0100, David Cantrell wrote: > > Variable width character sets are themselves hateful. I'll go further > > and say that they are a spectacularly stupid idea, and that whoever > > decreed them need

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

On Oct 17, 2005, at 9:26 AM, A. Pagaltzis wrote: * Peter da Silva [2005-10-17 08:55]: Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, and some unsung idiot at Adobe all independantly came up with the idea of cramming "smart quites" into the character set, all in different ways. I’m sending neither MacRoman nor Wind

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

On Oct 17, 2005, at 6:46 AM, David Cantrell wrote: And even if it did make UFS the default it would still suck, because it doesn't support large filesystems. Want a 2TB fs? You've got no choice but to use HFS+. OK, I'd assume that if they were to make UFS the default they'd start by pickin

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

* Juerd [2005-10-17 17:45]: > Who would have thought that with all this redundancy, they'd > get two semantically so very different things in a single > codepoint? Yes – the one and sole thing I really hate about Unicode. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis //

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

On Mon, Oct 17, 2005 at 05:45:34PM +0200, Juerd wrote: > Matthew Garrett skribis 2005-10-17 16:44 (+0100): > > U+0027 is sufficiently overloaded with a large number of historical > > meanings that it's preferable to use a more precise Unicode code point > > wherever possible. > > U+2019, having

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

Matthew Garrett skribis 2005-10-17 16:44 (+0100): > U+0027 is sufficiently overloaded with a large number of historical > meanings that it's preferable to use a more precise Unicode code point > wherever possible. U+2019, having two very different uses, isn't quite more precise. Juerd -- http

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

On Mon, Oct 17, 2005 at 05:37:43PM +0200, Juerd wrote: > Also, the apostrophe is not a single quote. You send us RIGHT SINGLE > QUOTATION MARK (U+2019), in places where you should use APOSTROPHE > (U+0027). U+2019 RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK Notes: • this is the preferred character to use for a

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

Juerd skribis 2005-10-17 17:37 (+0200): > Also, the apostrophe is not a single quote. You send us RIGHT SINGLE > QUOTATION MARK (U+2019), in places where you should use APOSTROPHE > (U+0027). I stand somewhat-corrected. Several sources say that U+2019 is okay to be used for apostrophes. Who would

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

A. Pagaltzis skribis 2005-10-17 17:21 (+0200): > The straight quotes were a typewriter invention, along with > monospace fonts. And both have proven to work extremely well in many circumstances. Also, the apostrophe is not a single quote. You send us RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK (U+2019), in plac

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

* Luke Kanies [2005-10-17 17:05]: > I'm guessing Pine has no relationship to whether this works; > I'm thinking instead that it's the terminal itself. But I > don't know, and I'm not likely to spend the hours and hours it > would take to find out and then fix every terminal I have. If it was the

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

* Luke Kanies [2005-10-17 17:00]: > the day that I 'love' a package manager is the about 3 years > after I officially stopped maintaining my computers. On this we can definitely agree. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis //

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

* David Cantrell [2005-10-17 16:40]: > Variable width character sets are themselves hateful. I'll go > further and say that they are a spectacularly stupid idea, and > that whoever decreed them needs shootin'. Yes, being able to > represent more than 220-odd characters is a Good Idea. So > damn

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

On Mon, 17 Oct 2005, A. Pagaltzis wrote: This is a straight apostrophe: ' This is a curly apostrophe: ’ Can you explain to me why you or anyone else would bother using a curly apostrophe? Is the key more conveniently placed? Do you just like annoying people who are stuck with stupider inte

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

On Mon, 17 Oct 2005, Juerd wrote: > I have this feeling -again- that you haven't seriously given recent > Linux distributions a serious try and chance. Being a heavy user of both OS X and Linux (Debian), I can definitely say that neither are without their hates. I wouldn't want to run an OS X se

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

On Mon, Oct 17, 2005 at 03:36:16PM +0100, David Cantrell wrote: > Variable width character sets are themselves hateful. I'll go further > and say that they are a spectacularly stupid idea, and that whoever > decreed them needs shootin'. Yes, being able to represent more than > 220-odd characters

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

On Mon, Oct 17, 2005 at 04:23:12PM +0200, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > Software configured to use anything other than UTF-8 (or, at the > very least another UTF-*) is hateful. I can???t wait until > single-byte charsets are a thing of the past. Variable width character sets are themselves hateful. I'll

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

* Peter da Silva [2005-10-17 08:55]: > Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, and some unsung idiot at Adobe all > independantly came up with the idea of cramming "smart quites" > into the character set, all in different ways. I’m sending neither MacRoman nor Windows-1252 (either of which would be a massively h

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

* Luke Kanies [2005-10-17 08:05]: > What I don't understand is what stinking moron decided that > other character sets would use a different coding for the > apostrophe character. This is a straight apostrophe: ' This is a curly apostrophe: ’ > I get this in Aristotle's emails (gibberish instead

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

Peter da Silva skribis 2005-10-17 6:44 (-0500): > If the number of elements in <> (or any similar construct) > depends on what's in $quux, that's not just hateful... it's evil. You might > as well go back to the shell. Agreed. Juerd -- http://convolution.nl/maak_juerd_blij.html http://convolut

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

Peter da Silva skribis 2005-10-17 6:38 (-0500): > It's software. > What did you fucking expect? It to suck less than Linux+KDE. > But if you want Unicode to Just Work, it's your best option by far. Except that Terminal.app came configured to use iso-8859-1 by default, and the default fonts seem

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

> <> > is just an easy way to write > "foo bar $quux".split > # not necessarily ("foo", "bar", "$quux") If you're going to provide "a handy way to write" something, at least make it a "handy way to write" the version of that something that doesn't make it easier for people to write e

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

On Mon, Oct 17, 2005 at 06:38:33AM -0500, Peter da Silva wrote: > Where Mac OS X pisses me off is low level shit like the lack of > tape support and the fact that UFS isn't the default file system. And even if it did make UFS the default it would still suck, because it doesn't support large files

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

> I heard tho "Get a Mac" mantra so often that I started believing it > would actually not be as hateful as the rest of software. It's software. What did you fucking expect? But if you want Unicode to Just Work, it's your best option by far. > A little less > than a year later, I know much bett

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

On Sun, Oct 16, 2005 at 07:15:42PM -0500, Peter da Silva wrote: > Programming languages that include characters not in USASCII are hateful. Hear hear! Programming languages that LET YOU include characters not in ASCII are hateful. That's all of them. If you want to use a funny heathen characte

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

Abigail skribis 2005-10-17 9:34 (+0200): > > In both cases I am talking about the %hash<> syntax (per > > ASCII-transliterated version of the operator). > Ah, that one. I think that this week[*] they are going for: > %hash Single angle brackets are for word lists, similar to Perl 5's qw// ope

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

On Mon, Oct 17, 2005 at 12:12:39AM +0200, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > * Abigail [2005-10-16 23:55]: > > > Can you throw in whitespace in those examples if you use the > > > new %hash??key?? syntax instead? > > > > Question marks? No idea to which syntax you are referring. > > > > > (And if not, would

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

Peter da Silva skribis 2005-10-17 1:50 (-0500): > Get a Mac. And install Linux on it :) I heard tho "Get a Mac" mantra so often that I started believing it would actually not be as hateful as the rest of software. A little less than a year later, I know much better and have installed Linux on it

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

> What I don't understand is what stinking moron decided that other character > sets would use a different coding for the apostrophe character. Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, and some unsung idiot at Adobe all independantly came up with the idea of cramming "smart quites" into the character set, all in d

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

> And until distributors provide it OOTB, it???s a *MASSIVE* pain to > get UTF-8 support set up. Get a Mac. It just works. Out of the box. I still think even having it as on option in Perl6 is so fundamentally misguided it makes Perl4 seem sane.

Re: Blogging sucks

> The question it all started with is: if you want to indent > something in Markdown, how do you do that? No, the question was "if you want to indent something without it turning into code, how do you do that". That was in response to your comment about indented code. > And the answer is: > then

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

On Mon, 17 Oct 2005, A. Pagaltzis wrote: Mostly a font issue. The infrastructure is in place. I can’t *see* the character, but it’s gonna show up in this mail unmangled. What I don't understand is what stinking moron decided that other character sets would use a different coding for the ap

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

* Matthew Garrett [2005-10-17 06:25]: > Stuff like ☭, on the other hand... Mostly a font issue. The infrastructure is in place. I can’t *see* the character, but it’s gonna show up in this mail unmangled. Several projects exist which aim to create fonts with glyphs for all or at least a lot of Un

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

On Sun, Oct 16, 2005 at 10:46:17PM -0500, Luke Kanies wrote: > On Mon, 17 Oct 2005, Juerd wrote: > > > ¥ (Y) > > « (<<) > > » (>>) > > *stuttering shock* > > Those actually show up correctly in my rxvt on OS X... Given that large swathes of people are able to deal with character set

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

On Mon, 17 Oct 2005, Juerd wrote: ¥ (Y) « (<<) » (>>) *stuttering shock* Those actually show up correctly in my rxvt on OS X... Not that that will get me using perl 6, either. -- The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds, and the pessimist fears that

Re: Blogging sucks

* Peter da Silva [2005-10-17 02:15]: > > There is no meaningful markup to do this in HTML, so I have no > > suggestion. > > Will you please explain what the presence or absence of this > markup in HTML has anything to do with the matter at hand? I > don't get it. Honestly, I don't get it. You're

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

> I would like to agree, but I fear that if we all take this stance > then things will be just as broken in 20 years, and 20 years > after that, and another 20 later. Restricting the character set used syntactically by a programming language is not going to make I18N any harder. There's no reason

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

> All languages should handle input and output in all character sets, but > none of them should be written in anything but ASCII. At least for the > next 20 years. Maybe then things will be different, but for now the > breakage is just huge. Well, we've even seen it tonight, something as > simple a

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

> Software which does not cope with UTF-8, like your MUA, is > massively hateful. [...] > I'm not sending UTF-8 out of flowery > notions, I actually need it. Programming languages that include characters not in USASCII are hateful. Whether it's Perl6 or Applescript. Whether the c

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

> Once you know that there must be no whitespace between the hash > name and the key lookup operator in Perl6, the parsing is > completely straightforward. While it's nice to see Perl authors having to deal with the same kind of problems everyone else who tries to deal with Perl as if it was a san

Re: Blogging sucks

> There is no meaningful markup to do this in HTML, so I have no > suggestion. Will you please explain what the presence or absence of this markup in HTML has anything to do with the matter at hand? I don't get it. Honestly, I don't get it. You're arguing as if markdown and raw HTML are the only o

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

* Juerd [2005-10-17 01:20]: > A. Pagaltzis skribis 2005-10-17 1:01 (+0200): > > You *can* use ASCII transliterations. %hash<> means the > > same as %hash«key», and from what I???ve seen there are only > > a few operators which have a non-ASCII variant at all. > > There are no operators in standa

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

A. Pagaltzis skribis 2005-10-17 1:01 (+0200): > You *can* use ASCII transliterations. %hash<> means the same > as %hash«key», and from what I???ve seen there are only a few > operators which have a non-ASCII variant at all. There are no operators in standard Perl 6 that do not have a non-ASCII va

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

* David Cantrell [2005-10-17 01:00]: > You mean that if I configure mutt "correctly" my vt-320 will > magically support all those funny heathen characters? How does > that work? No, it will transliterate things. Ie it will display « as << and » as >>, will turn curly quotes into straight ones, e

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

* Martin Ebourne [2005-10-17 00:45]: > All languages should handle input and output in all character > sets, but none of them should be written in anything but ASCII. You *can* use ASCII transliterations. %hash<> means the same as %hash«key», and from what I’ve seen there are only a few operators

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

On Mon, Oct 17, 2005 at 12:12:39AM +0200, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > Bonus hate: > > Software which does not cope with UTF-8, like your MUA, is > massively hateful. > > But you're using a sufficiently recent mutt, so it is > configurable to cope. Adding `//TRANSLIT` to your $chars

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

Martin Ebourne skribis 2005-10-16 23:43 (+0100): > All languages should handle input and output in all character sets, but > none of them should be written in anything but ASCII. At least for the > next 20 years. Maybe then things will be different, but for now the > breakage is just huge. Well, we

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

On Mon, 2005-10-17 at 00:14 +0200, A. Pagaltzis wrote: * Jonathan Stowe [2005-10-17 00:05]: > Well except there isn't a « or » on any keyboard I have seen > recently, are we reinventing APL here ? You can use ASCII transliterations of all operators, like <<>> for «». But in Vim you enter them

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

* Abigail [2005-10-16 23:55]: > > Can you throw in whitespace in those examples if you use the > > new %hash??key?? syntax instead? > > Question marks? No idea to which syntax you are referring. > > > (And if not, would it at least be possible to parse the > > examples umambiguously if it *were*

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

* Jonathan Stowe [2005-10-17 00:05]: > Well except there isn't a « or » on any keyboard I have seen > recently, are we reinventing APL here ? You can use ASCII transliterations of all operators, like <<>> for «». But in Vim you enter them as digraphs. Don’t like that part much, either. Would ha

Re: Significant whitespace (was Re: Blogging sucks)

On Sun, 2005-10-16 at 22:11, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > I would lobby for dropping the {} hash > lookup operator altogether and permitting whitespace with the «» > operator.) Well except there isn't a « or » on any keyboard I have seen recently, are we reinventing APL here ? /J\