On Feb 6, 2008, at 6:33 PM, Janice McDonald wrote:
>>
>> Yes. CTR horses might be listed somewhere else. I don't know
>> anything
>> about CTR.
>>
>> Numbers also include horses (like our Twist) who have been entered
>> under
>> more than one name and who have only completed one or two or even
On Feb 6, 2008, at 6:30 PM, Karen Thomas wrote:
> .
>
>
> Thanks, Lynn. That's also good, specific information to have.
>
> Paso llano is very similar to running walk, right, but without the
> headnod...
No head nod, and 4 beat timing in both lift and set down:
(a) Paso llano: Equally spaced
Can you believe some parents actually put their kids on wild ponies??
At least the little girl was wearing a helmet.
http://tinyurl.com/2o28bs
Raven
Lucy & Molly, the Girl Doggies
Huginn & Dixie Chick, the Back Behind the Barn Ponies
Maggie Rose, the cat who makes me sneeze
http://www.myspace.com/
Thank-you, again, Dr Miller for being the "voice" of the horse.
Kat
Who said hot branding doesn't hurt a horse? Ouch!
http://tinyurl.com/35ykth
Raven
Lucy & Molly, the Girl Doggies
Huginn & Dixie Chick, the Back Behind the Barn Ponies
Maggie Rose, the cat who makes me sneeze
http://www.myspace.com/iceponygoddess
Respect ALL Earthlings. We are all animals of this p
> It looks like she was 59th out of 80 once and 69th out of 95 the other.
> But, she finished both times.
She did and there were horses in each competition that didn't - you can see
their names and the reason at the end of the list of finishers.
Nancy
>
> She's Isak's mom. (I am NOT implying that Isak is an "endurance prospect"
> though!) You remember the picture you said you liked of Melnir standing
> with the pinto mare, caught in a tender moment? She's the pinto mare in
> that picture... and Isak was the gleam in Melnir's eye.
I'll have
> I think we are at a great period of time, a break-through period, where we
can now acknowledge, without naysayers, that the breed DOES fox trot!
And that foxtrot ain't a broken tolt and don't need fixin! : )
If someone wants to compete in the Icelandic show ring and needs a tolt,
then sell
When you have her record up, then click on the name of the ride and
then on the 25 mile division. She was nowhere near last and had pretty
respectable times.
It looks like she was 59th out of 80 once and 69th out of 95 the other.
But, she finished both times.
Karen Thomas,
One year later3 companies indicted over tainted pet food
http://tinyurl.com/yov8oj
Raven
Lucy & Molly, the Girl Doggies
Huginn & Dixie Chick, the Back Behind the Barn Ponies
Maggie Rose, the cat who makes me sneeze
http://www.myspace.com/iceponygoddess
Respect ALL Earthlings. We are all animal
>>>So she was a California horse?
Yes, she was born at Elisabeth's Saga California, and lived in California
until I bought her in early 2005. Her owner's husband was ill, so Judy kept
her for a brief period. Judy submitted pics of her showing several gaits,
so I inquired about her.
She's Is
I believe Elizabeth Haug & Neils West are cousins ...and when I hung out
at Viking Saga in the late 90's, she did loan Neils a really lovely little
stallion Randver for about 6 months.
Kaaren
When you have her record up, then click on the name of the ride and then on
the 25 mile division. She was nowhere near last and had pretty respectable
times. She had to be moving right along at least part of the time. The
first place horse came in with a time so fast on the Norco ride that I
>>> http://www.doublejoy.com/erol/Individual/HorseHistory.asp
Thanks, Nancy. I found her, so I guess we can reduce the number of
Icelandics from 16 to 15 since she's through with competing. It says that
she completed two 25 mile LD rides in 2002, but doesn't mention a 50. For
some reason,
I think a lot of Icelandic Horses fox trot as their intermediate gait.
I think we have to do-away with the "four gaited" / "five gaited"
labels. They just are not right.
I agree, but would also add that maybe we shouldn't be ashamed to say the
horses are "gait-challenged", or "
So she was a California horse?
Nancy
Well said, Dr. Miller.
Nancy
> The friendliest one (belongs to a friend) comes from a mare who is one
> of those "chase into a stall" jobs. Even after a couple of years here,
> with daily visits/bread/whatever from me, she's still not at all
> reliable to catch, and when she's got a new baby foal, forget it.
>
> Wish we could
>> I think we have to do-away with the "four gaited" / "five gaited" labels.
> They just are not right.
>
> Or maybe acknowledge that foxtrot and the running walk are naturally
> occuring gaits within the Icelandic breed, as well as the racking gaits
> (tolt).
I think we are at a great period of
>I couldn't find her. This is the link. You enter the horse's name or even
> part of the horse's name.
> http://www.doublejoy.com/erol/Individual/HorseHistory.asp
Yup, she's there... not sure why, but she's TR Flekka, owner Jennifer
Billings.
Judy
http://iceryder.net
http://clickryder.com
And They Call Us Horse Lovers
By Robert M. Miller, DVM
The Nation was shocked when Barbaro broke down shortly after leaving the
gate at the Preakness. I saw the repaired fractures in TIME magazine. What I
think happened is that the sesamoid bone fractured, a common injury. As a
result, the fetl
>
> Let me ponder / dream on this appealing offer.
> I'm only 120 miles or so
> from Cadillac. (I'm in Allendale)
>
Bring the kids and the sitter! There are tons of
munchkins in the ride camp. The little ones run
around with the bigs ones - very cute.
Last year I started conditioning in
> Renee, send pictures!
I'm afraid they would look like dark figures behind a lot of static (snow)!
And the minute I go out in the paddock, all activity stops as it's assumed
food will be forth-coming. : )
-- Renee M. in Michigan
--
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>
> I think we have to do-away with the "four gaited" / "five gaited" labels.
They just are not right.
Or maybe acknowledge that foxtrot and the running walk are naturally
occuring gaits within the Icelandic breed, as well as the racking gaits
(tolt).
In fact, if one looks at the old pictures and
That is so cute!
Nancy
I couldn't find her. This is the link. You enter the horse's name or even
part of the horse's name.
http://www.doublejoy.com/erol/Individual/HorseHistory.asp
If you know the owner or rider's name, you can try rider history. Sometimes
a horse will be entered with a name other than its registe
> Here's another trait I'd think might be a necessity for a good CTR, LD or
> endurance horse - if the horse will go out alone easily and comfortably.
> I
> think MOST horses prefer to ride out with other horses, but let's face it,
> some are simply not comfortable alone. Nancy, would you put valu
>
> Yes. CTR horses might be listed somewhere else. I don't know anything
> about CTR.
>
> Numbers also include horses (like our Twist) who have been entered under
> more than one name and who have only completed one or two or even no rides.
> I suppose he may account for two of the Standardbreds
As someone who used to ride Peruvians in limited Distance AERC and Open
Division NATRC (and plan to have a green horse ready to compete by next
year), I did a good portion of each ride in the 6 mph flat walk that
each had been trained to do, and then an easy paso llano (square 4
I rode Tosca out with a couple of other horses Monday and they were both
trotting. I have NO clue what Tosca was doing, not smooth as in the riding
ring, but no diagonal you could post to. I love a good trotting horses. I
would recognize a trot. I asked Bev to look at her to see if she was
This is a short...very cute video!
http://tinyurl.com/2rp5jl
Raven
Lucy & Molly, the Girl Doggies
Huginn & Dixie Chick, the Back Behind the Barn Ponies
Maggie Rose, the cat who makes me sneeze
http://www.myspace.com/iceponygoddess
Respect ALL Earthlings. We are all animals of this planet. We are a
>>> Yes. Go to the AERC website and enter her name. Or give it to me and
>>> I will.
I can't find where to look. Would I need to be a member? Her name is
Flekka from Saga California, although some of the Saga California horses are
sometimes referred to in the form of SC Flekka, or Saga C
>>> Eitill could be readied much sooner than Soley I think, as he's younger
>>> and, well, thinner, and he DID get some riding the last two years down
>>> at Karen's. Hmmm. . . .
When I was going through the list of Icelandic horses in my head today that
might have some potential for CTR-and
>The senior staff, Soley and Rocky, were standing inside, but Eitill and
> little Mystic Gem the ponygirl were out running around the paddock,
> kicking
> up their heels, rearing, and chasing each other. Mystic has really
> enjoyed
> having a younger horse around to carouse with.
Renee,
Am re-sending this note under a different subject heading, so that it
doesn't get lost:
> why other people with Icelandics talk about how rough their trots are
> while
> my horses were so smooth.
It could be a jog, trot without suspension:
http://iceryder.net/jog.html
> me while mentoring pe
>> John, for what it's worth: Anne Elwell always used to tell people
>> (myself included) that Elisabeth's horses lacked gait.
Gosh I hope not. Aren't Elisabeth and Niels West cousins or something? I
think they traded stallions back and forth. I'm joking. Our mares are both
nicel
>
> I wonder if there is anywhere you can look up the particular horses?
Yes. Go to the AERC website and enter her name. Or give it to me and I
will.
> These numbers include "full" endurance (50+ miles) and LD horses?
Yes. CTR horses might be listed somewhere else. I don't know anything
a
>>> If I were an Icelandic breeder and someone came to me and asked to buy
>>> an Icelandic as an endurance prospect, I would probably suggest they go
>>> shop for an Arab. If they could convince me they wanted an Icelandic
>>> for all the wonderful qualities the breed exhibits and would stil
> John, for what it's worth: Anne Elwell always used to tell people
> (myself included) that Elisabeth's horses lacked gait. I don't know
> if she still
tells folks that or not, but "way back when" that's what she apparently
thought. Maybe that was her personal opinion of them
>>> Well, yes, it would be. But, I have never heard anyone say or write
>>> anything to try to associate the "show type" gaits with endurance
>>> riding.
John, that was exactly what started this thread.
Karen Thomas, NC
Here is the link for the list of horses with AERC numbers by breed:
http://www.aerc.org/Membership_Breeds.asp
Interesting. So, out of 25,000 total horses, my quick tally makes it look
as if there might be about 400-600 gaited horses - all breeds - in that
list? Maybe 1-1.5%? Don't
On 2/6/08, Renee Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Just wondering. . .
>
i would love to be :)
Janice--
courage is being scared to death...and saddling up anyway--John Wayne
Maybe they've discovered, for a strongly gaited horse, it works to
"mix things up" alternating gaiting with trotting and/or cantering
depending on the terrain?
I know I was the one who first used the term "strongly gaited" in this
thread, but I think it's relevant to point out
>
> I think it was 70 here today, so no blizzards for us.
>Karen Thomas, NC
Pft! (That was a raspberry blown in your general direction!) : )
--- Renee M. in Michigan
--
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> There are many good endurance rides in lower MI, Renee,
I know! I know -- I've heard the ones held near White Cloud (White River
Rides) are good ones to attend.
I have always been interested in just trying maybe a 15 miler just to see
what it's all about. But I confess: I'm scared to dea
On 06/02/2008, Renee Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Just wondering. . .
>
> I just went out to give the horses more hay. It's not really cold -- temp
> is hovering around 30 degrees F., but it's snowing like the band and WINDY.
No but I wish I wasmy most favorite day in the last 49 year
Do you have a clue what particular traits makes the specific gaited
horses successful?
If I were an Icelandic breeder and someone came to me and asked to buy an
Icelandic as an endurance prospect, I would probably suggest they go shop
for an Arab. If they could convince me they wanted an Ic
>Sounds like you were presuming neither Skjoldur nor Remington are strongly
gaited, even though you've never
seen either of them. . .. From what Elisabeth Haug told me about the eight
horses she competed in endurance, most of them like her palomino stallion
Snaefaxi were strongly gaited as well.
Hi Renee,
Yes, LD means Limited Distance, which is usually 25 or 30 miles. It doesn't
become endurance, according to AERC rules, until you ride 50 miles or more.
For some of us, 30 miles does require some enduring, however.
I usually refer to my horse as a distance horse rather than an enduran
>>Here's the picture, with Valur: http://iceryder.net/robynmom.html
What a wonderful picture. Sending prayers to you all during this time.
Trish
>>> Just wondering. . .
I think it was 70 here today, so no blizzards for us.
Karen Thomas, NC
On Feb 6, 2008, at 1:16 PM, Renee Martin wrote:
> Stupid question from a non-competitor:
>
> When one sees "LD endurance" mentioned, does that refer to Limited
> Distance
> (as Nancy says she does) or Long Distance (as I had always assumed that
> abbreviation meant).
>
> Also, Nancy, of those fol
I am working in the basement of this office building - no windows-I
hope there isn't a blizzard. My MIL works for Grand Valley and emailed
to say it was getting bad enought to wish for cancelled afternoon
classes.
Your kidlets will love to play in the snow tomorrow!
-Kristen in MI
> When one sees "LD endurance" mentioned, does that refer to Limited
Distance
Yes, LD means Limited Distance which is an event 30 miles or less (I
think). Endurance is technically 50 miles or more.
> Also, Nancy, of those folks you mentioned who you know ride
strongly gaited
> horses in endu
In a message dated 2/6/2008 11:12:40 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<>
Well, yes, it would be. But, I have never heard anyone say or write
anything to try to associate the "show type" gaits with endurance riding.
Quite the
opposite from Icelandic horse breeders, s
In a message dated 2/6/2008 10:54:04 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<>
OK, then I will answer again even though I think I have already answered in
spades. But please read your doggone post again, because that isn't exactly
the question you asked before, was it? You o
Here is the link for the list of horses with AERC numbers by breed:
http://www.aerc.org/Membership_Breeds.asp
There are 16 Icelandics with AERC numbers.
By comparison, there are 14,006 Arabs.
I have this truly petty thing I do - you can do it too. If someone tells me
he/she has an endurance h
I am not a huge parelli groupie. I take what I need and leave the
rest from all the gurus...
But I am doing the seven games with all my horses, we are just barely
along in it really, I have so many horses and so little time. But in
the yoyo game, when you bend and look at the horses rear end and
However, there certainly are strongly gaited horses out there doing
endurance, Including the challenging Tevis Cup ride. Bruce Weary, Sue
Walz, Amber Applegate, Paul Latois (sp) and others all compete in
endurance on strongly gaited horses of various breeds.
Thanks for b
On Feb 6, 2008, at 10:59 AM, Nancy Sturm wrote:
Does anyone compete in
endurance doing most of their riding at gait? If so, what gaits?
I've been keeping my fingers quiet because I ride Limited Endurance,
not
endurance and I ride a TWH, not am Icelandic - for now anyway.
However, there
>What your talking about is traditional methods. Clicker training does
>not ignore attempts to learn..it rewards the try and offered
>behaviours. Its all about positive re-enforcement.
>Ask the children or watch a Tag Teach programme.
Sue:
Well said. I'm so glad you brought up Tag Teach, that i
Just wondering. . .
I just went out to give the horses more hay. It's not really cold -- temp
is hovering around 30 degrees F., but it's snowing like the band and WINDY.
The senior staff, Soley and Rocky, were standing inside, but Eitill and
little Mystic Gem the ponygirl were out running ar
Stupid question from a non-competitor:
When one sees "LD endurance" mentioned, does that refer to Limited Distance
(as Nancy says she does) or Long Distance (as I had always assumed that
abbreviation meant).
Also, Nancy, of those folks you mentioned who you know ride strongly gaited
horses in end
> When I was in Iceland 5 years ago,
I just realized: That was going on 7 years ago. . . Man, time flies. . .
-- Renee M. in Michigan
--
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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8:57
>>> Yes, trotting is a working gait. It is the most athletic gait, and has
>>> the most balance and stability for the horse (other than walking, when
>>> there is speed involved). Tolt, being a gait of one foot / two foot
>>> support is not suitable for stability, and is basically for
>>> str
Does anyone compete in
> endurance doing most of their riding at gait? If so, what gaits?
I've been keeping my fingers quiet because I ride Limited Endurance, not
endurance and I ride a TWH, not am Icelandic - for now anyway.
However, there certainly are strongly gaited horses out there doing
Oh Karen, you just have a severe allergy to whoever happens to
disagree with you. Nothing personal, I was just gently pointing
out that you don't
have the experience people who have been on this list much longer than you
have to make your observation about no "strongly gai
- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>I have puzzled for many years about what
Remington is doing on the trail. I've always thought he was trotting but
wondered why other people with Icelandics talk about how rough their trots
are while
my horses were so smooth.<
My Soley's
ok, whats weird, theres two horses, both named Teiter, both from the
same unusual name town in AZ. Both unregistered iceys. Both 1,000.
The first posted 6 months before, says green broke, experienced rider
needed. Then now, can't be ridden--- with a different owner name and
phone number sou
In a message dated 2/6/08 9:41:12 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> it kinda does describe him tho haha. What I was trying to say tho is
> he would LOVE to do that. My gosh he loves to go and is tireless. He
> would enjoy it so much. But with the go you gotta have the whoa...
>
All kidding aside,
In a message dated 2/6/08 9:38:57 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> < directly answer a question without being a wise guy. :) You know, I could
> just as easily make some disparaging, braggart remark to you about me having
> owned horses longer than you have...but I won't. Unlike many
> Icelandic-o
On Feb 6, 2008 1:19 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >. It does seem to me now that some sort of cycling back and
> forth through walk, foxtrot and trot is as good an explanation as any of what
> he
> is doing.
>
> John Parke
Do you sit them all?
V
> why other people with Icelandics talk about how rough their trots are
> while
> my horses were so smooth.
It could be a jog, trot without suspension:
http://iceryder.net/jog.html
> me while mentoring people, they would say that Remington was tolting or
> "shuffling" (especially when going
> years ago about Icelandics. It showed a clip with people tolting
> together
> down a driveway at Dan Slott's farm in New York. But when it showed
> footage of
> the sheep round up in the rocky hills in Iceland, the horses were all
> trotting.
Yes, trotting is a working gait. It is the
> Just noticed too that no one has commented on this interesting study.
We've had many discussions over the years about too much handling, incorrect
handling, and no handling.
The hands-off policy of traditional Icelandic Horse care is definitely not
the best thing in the world. How did this
On Feb 6, 2008 1:33 PM, Janice McDonald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> or you could do like me and clip them yourself and they will look like
> dachau war refugees.
> Janice
>
That's my plan! :D
V
>>> This may be one of the nervous Icelandics that could possibly have been
>>> salvaged by early handling.
Absolutely...and even if he IS nervous, maybe he could still be brought
around with a little time and patience. He's only six. Angie is 11 and I
see a good bit of promise in her.
Kare
>> Stonewall would be a good candidate for an endurance horse, he is
so hot hot and loves to go
IMHO...a horse like that would not be a good candidate for endurance.
Horse like that ...tend to not be able to rate themselves. You need a
horse that will calm down into a "working groove" and also be
> Yeah, I expect that -- I'd probably keep him in a puppy cut or
> whatever looks most natural.
or you could do like me and clip them yourself and they will look like
dachau war refugees.
Janice
--
courage is being scared to death...and saddling up anyway--John Wayne
On 2/6/08, Nancy Sturm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> I realize full well that this does describe Stonewall at all, I think he's a
> very nice horse indeed, but a lot of sellers think if he's too hot to be a
> saddle horse, he'd be good in endurance.
>
> Nancy
>
it kinda does describe him tho
In a message dated 2/6/08 9:04:23 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> Trot, as
> it's been explained to me by the few endurance folks I've talked to, is the
> gait of effeciency to cover the most ground.
>
Oh, also, Renee, what I forgot to add in my first reply to your post is
something that every
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "djakni1" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Try to camp with someone who has horse camping experience the first
> time you go. I called someone I didn't know well but who I knew did a
> lot of horse camping. Now I have made some great friends.
Thanks a lot for the
On Wed, Feb 06, 2008 at 11:57:58AM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> preached over and over again, most Icelandic owners who have done any
> significant trail riding could enter a novice class ctr and have a ball.
fwiw, stjarni and i (and my student with the quarab) are hoping to try a
novice-
In a message dated 2/6/08 9:04:23 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> That makes sense John, since the foxtrot is a much more efficient and
> "easier-on-the- "easier-on-the-horse" gait than the racking (tolt)
> it's been explained to me by the few endurance folks I've talked to, is the
> gait of e
Skjoldur, who has been seriously competing in endurance longer than
you have had Icelandics, would beg to disagree with you.
John, just once it would be nice if, just once, you could simply and
directly answer a question without being a wise guy. :) You know, I could
just as easily
That just kills me - he's not ridable but would make a good driving
horse - NOT !! - driving requires a very stable, rock solid horse -
much more so than riding. It just shows a level of ignorance
Yep... however, I can think of a few exceptions...such as if the horse has a
part
>> http://www.equinehits.com/horses-for-sale/horse-135197
>>
> That just kills me - he's not ridable but would make a good driving
> horse - NOT !! - driving requires a very stable, rock solid horse -
> much more so than riding.
This may be one of the nervous Icelandics that could possibly have
I think
>> my Stonewall would be a good candidate for an endurance horse, he is
>> so hot hot and loves to go. But unfortunately that type situation
>> makes him insane with excitement and he is useless except as a suicide
>> horse.
Oh man - this is one of my top-of-the-list pet peeves.
There's
On Feb 6, 2008 7:23 AM, Susan Coombes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > You will
> be in for a lot of grooming.
Yeah, I expect that -- I'd probably keep him in a puppy cut or
whatever looks most natural.
V
> http://www.equinehits.com/horses-for-sale/horse-135197
>
That just kills me - he's not ridable but would make a good driving
horse - NOT !! - driving requires a very stable, rock solid horse -
much more so than riding. It just shows a level of ignorance
--
Laree in NC
Doppa & Mura
Simon, Sad
> Although he is known as a trotter, Skjoldur's pal
> supposedly is actually foxtrotting most of the time according to some of
my friends with foxtrotters who have ridden with him mile after mile. <
That makes sense John, since the foxtrot is a much more efficient and
"easier-on-the-horse" gait
In a message dated 2/5/08 9:15:02 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> I think icelandics, most good ones, would be great NATRc horses tho!
> But that is based on finesse and good trail habits/sense and altho
> timed, reasonably timed where a horse can walk, trot, gait, walk etc
> and not have to be h
On 2/6/08, Renee Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > . . my daughter and her friends would go stand neck
> > deep, in about 4 feet of water and chatter and laugh and many many times I
> would look out and see dolphins circling them,. . <
>
> Maybe the dolphins were just trying to keep the sharks
oh, it says he is not registered. --
courage is being scared to death...and saddling up anyway--John Wayne
here is a 6 year old registered icey for 1,000. it says he cant be
ridden. There are two ads. The first one says "experienced rider
only, green broke", then the second says he can't be ridden. Poor
thing. Sounds like another rehab! But at least he is a decent price
rehab so he has a chance..
Wow -- I knew it! Girls ARE easier than boys. Ha ha.
The post-professional degree discrepency might be because of child-bearing
and the child-rearing years when a lot of women cut back to part-time in
their careers and/or quit completely for at least a few years. Then, they
start saving for T
> . . my daughter and her friends would go stand neck
> deep, in about 4 feet of water and chatter and laugh and many many times I
would look out and see dolphins circling them,. . <
Maybe the dolphins were just trying to keep the sharks back . . .
-- Renee M. in Michigan who saw Jaws at an impre
In a message dated 2/4/08 6:37:20 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> Is there a strongly gaited Icelandic that is seriously competing in
> endurance? I don't remember hearing of one, but I own two Icelandics who
> are endurance dropouts.
>
Skjoldur, who has been seriously competing in endurance lo
On Wed, Feb 06, 2008 at 09:53:07AM -0500, Laree Shulman wrote:
> ? For every 100 women who earn a post-professional degree, 107
> men earn a post-professional degree.
source? and what kind of degree?
women phd's in english are common. they also don't make much money off
it. women phd's
>perceived as negative. ... "It seems that the best way to establish
>confidence with a new foal is through good contact with its mother," said
What I don't get is that, of my group of 5 foals from last year (now
up to 7 as a friend has brought 2 newly-weaned ones to grow up), the
most shy, react
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