Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

+1 And thanks to the IAOC with putting up with the abuse every single time. --Richard On Aug 28, 2010, at 3:54 AM, Tschofenig, Hannes (NSN - FI/Espoo) wrote: Hi Jordi, Hi all, I have not seen an IETF meeting where people have not complained about the layout of the venue, how to get there,

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

Speaking from personal experience and having been attending IETF meetings since 1998, I have never encountered the number of issues at a meeting location I did at Maastricht. The only other venue that came close was Dublin and that was due to not having access to food that I could eat at the venu

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

At 12:29 PM -0500 8/28/10, Mary Barnes wrote: As I said in prior posts, I think Maastricht would be a lovely city for a vacation/holiday, but it is a very poor choice for a business meeting. And, actually the scattered nature of the hotels made if far more difficult to interact with IETF fr

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

Hi Hannes, Maastricht is definitely an interesting city and I'm glad I can say I've been there (Aachen was cool too!). But the venue there sucked. It was in the middle of a cultural dead zone (which says something because Maastricht has lots to offer) and the hotels were all scattered around

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

On 8/28/10 10:29 AM, Mary Barnes wrote: > So, if all you guys (and it's been all guys from what I've seen) would > just consider how you would feel if you either had access to very > little food (think 4 days without a real meal and subsisting on > illegally imported nuts and dried fruit for 4 days

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

Joel, Thank you so much for your sensitivity - you've done a wonderful job of re-enforcing the idea that IETF is a hostile environment for women. My guess is that you've never personally been in a situation where you've been on a train late at nite and someone got overly friendly to the point of

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

On 8/29/10 12:29 PM, Mary Barnes wrote: > Joel, > > Thank you so much for your sensitivity - you've done a wonderful job > of re-enforcing the idea that IETF is a hostile environment for women. You're right, apparently I can't empathize and therefore I'm not going to try. I would just note that I

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

I did book into a hotel with colleagues as I noted, but we all had different schedules/dinner plans for the most part. I did not book into the conference hotel because experience in Vienna led me to decide that it was more convenient overall to be in the city center. Also, based on my experience of

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

On 8/29/10 2:03 PM, Mary Barnes wrote: > Personally, I don't routinely travel to places where my safety is put > at risk. The first and most important step for self defense is > avoidance. My participation in the meeting precluded me from avoiding > the situations. > > My point overall is actuall

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

I was in Paris and was certainly well aware of the issues with regards to theft. Personally, I imagine that emotionally and physically recovering from the theft of personal property (as frustrating and as upsetting as I know I would find that to be) is significantly less traumatic than recovering

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

--On Sunday, August 29, 2010 14:29 -0500 Mary Barnes wrote: > Joel, > > Thank you so much for your sensitivity - you've done a > wonderful job of re-enforcing the idea that IETF is a hostile > environment for women. My guess is that you've never > personally been in a situation where you've b

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

John, I agree 100% with everything you said here, execpt for the part about "we don't get it". I don't think I need to go over again why Maastricht was chosen nor elaborate further on the surprises we encountered onsite, so let's just say that we will try to do better next time and move on. Ole

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

At 4:03 PM -0500 8/29/10, Mary Barnes wrote: My point overall is actually quite simple - none of these things are issues if the meetings are held in larger international cities or secondary cities where everything is nearby. We've had plenty of meetings in a variety of locations that satisf

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

--On Sunday, August 29, 2010 15:59 -0700 Ole Jacobsen wrote: > John, > > I agree 100% with everything you said here, execpt for the > part about "we don't get it". I don't think I need to go over > again why Maastricht was chosen nor elaborate further on the > surprises we encountered onsite,

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

At 6:12 PM -0400 8/29/10, John C Klensin wrote: While our weighting factors are different, I think it is the obligation of the Secretariat and the IAOC's meetings committee to find locations at which the people who contribute significantly can have an efficient and productive meeting, with

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

I agree. Unfortunate comparison of two cities. Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: o...@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj On Sun, 29 Aug 2010, John C Klensin wrote: > > > --On

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

On Aug 29, 2010, at 7:11 PM, Randall Gellens wrote: > At 6:12 PM -0400 8/29/10, John C Klensin wrote: > >> While our weighting factors are different, I think it is the >> obligation of the Secretariat and the IAOC's meetings committee >> to find locations at which the people who contribute >> si

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

At 7:23 PM -0400 8/29/10, Marshall Eubanks wrote: > It really comes down to which bias to apply in site selection: towards those who want to be a tourist, or those who want to do work. Based on my observation of and participation in the meeting selection process, the IAOC is (and has been

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

Uhm, no. If someone wants to put a little salt in their soup do you suggest that the whole shaker be poured into the bowl? Taking a position to an absurd extreme is fallacious. Dan. On Sun, August 29, 2010 5:21 am, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > Ah so the salt lake city model where everyone s

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

On 8/29/10 3:12 PM, John C Klensin wrote: > > > --On Sunday, August 29, 2010 14:29 -0500 Mary Barnes > wrote: > >> Joel, >> >> Thank you so much for your sensitivity - you've done a >> wonderful job of re-enforcing the idea that IETF is a hostile >> environment for women. My guess is that you'

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

At 06:31 PM 8/29/2010, Randall Gellens wrote: At 7:23 PM -0400 8/29/10, Marshall Eubanks wrote: > It really comes down to which bias to apply in site selection: towards those who want to be a tourist, or those who want to do work. Based on my observation of and participation in the meeting

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 04:02:00PM -0700, Randall Gellens wrote: > I think Mary is right. (I also don't like the attitude in some replies > that if anyone had a poor experience with Maastricht it is their own > fault for being a dolt.) FWIW, I don't like the attitude in some of the messages tha

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

Yeah - we should stop, but you're just perpetrating the mentality that has caused alot of the debate. Unfortunately, folks have mis-interpreted the concerns a minority of us experienced at the IETF (since we are a minority in terms of IETF participation) as a dislike of Maastricht or lack of apprec

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

Andrew Sullivan wrote: Moreover, several of the dissatisfied seem to feel that anything less than total agreement requires yet another frontal assault on that disagreement. The present thread, if memory serves, got started by someone who decided that, since his ranting on another list didn't ach

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

On 8/28/2010 12:54 AM, Tschofenig, Hannes (NSN - FI/Espoo) wrote: I have not seen an IETF meeting where people have not complained about the layout of the venue,... A primary requirement for participating in a open environment like the IETF is the ability to apply damping filters, rather th

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

Ah so the salt lake city model where everyone stayed at the same hotel and there was only one bar in town would be ideal... On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 7:41 PM, Dan Harkins wrote: > >  Hi Hannes, > >  Maastricht is definitely an interesting city and I'm glad I can say > I've been there (Aachen was co

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

On 8/30/10 8:08 AM, Mary Barnes wrote: > Yeah - we should stop, but you're just perpetrating the mentality that > has caused alot of the debate. Unfortunately, folks have > mis-interpreted the concerns a minority of us experienced at the IETF > (since we are a minority in terms of IETF participatio

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

At 10:43 AM -0700 8/28/10, Dave CROCKER wrote: Mike St. Johns' posting: is quite excellent, for its attempt to describe what he wants from a venue, in terms of participating in a meeting. I suggest we shou

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

At 9:34 AM -0700 8/30/10, Joel Jaeggli wrote: (I can't fathom how someone that might be in a wheelchair could have managed attending this meeting). The dutch interpret article 1 of their constitutions as guaranteeing full access to participation in society. Both the rail system and the c

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

On 30 aug 2010, at 20:25, Randall Gellens wrote: > In both directions between BRU and Maastricht I had to change trains multiple > times, and several of the stations required me to carry my luggage up and > down non-trivial staircases. I wondered at the time how someone in a > wheelchair or wh

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

On 30 August 2010 00:11, John C Klensin wrote: > > > --On Sunday, August 29, 2010 15:59 -0700 Ole Jacobsen > wrote: > >> John, >> >> I agree 100% with everything you said here, execpt for the >> part about "we don't get it". I don't think I need to go over >> again why  Maastricht was chosen nor

RE: All these discussions about meeting venues

Michael Dillon [mailto://wavetos...@googlemail.com] writes: ... > > I am really uninterested in discussing the Maastricht situation > > further except insofar as I think there are lessons in it that > > have not been absorbed yet. > > I wonder why an attendee who arrived late was left begging at

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

On Aug 29, 2010, at 7:26 PM, Joel Jaeggli wrote: > when you find those fault free-venues lets use them... It seems that every meeting, we get a diatribe about how the facilities and the venue were awful, and how the IAOC has done a poor job in the selection. I, for one, would be very intereste

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

Glen, I had zero expectation that Maastricht would be anything like the city I live in. However, it never crossed my mind to think that the city would be so deserted when I arrived, nor that I would end up on the last train. So, you are correct that i did not come prepared with a list of taxi nu

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

I personally am not asking for a fault free venue, however, I am asking for some very basic things to be considered as part of the meeting venue selection process: 1) Safety: far more easily achieved when the meeting hotels and venue are very close to one another in a city center that doesn't shut

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

Michael, > So, when a venue is not a mainstream hotel with regular airport > shuttle service, it might be good to publish a number that people > can call at any time to arrange an English speaking taxi driver > to pick them up from the train station. And understand that this > service might be cal

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

in another time and place, we invented killfiles because this class of discussion proves so counter-productive, its better not to see it. I posit that IETF venue discussions map 1:1 onto godwins law. I suggest that we separate consensus over standards from IETF process over venues, and let the

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

On Sep 12, 2010, at 6:57 PM, George Michaelson wrote: > > in another time and place, we invented killfiles because this class of > discussion proves so counter-productive, its better not to see it. Note that killfiles didn't end discussion, they just allowed individuals who didn't want to see so

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

I think it is important for the IAOC to know when there are issues that they need to address, for example the issue with food appropriate to muslims that came up in Dublin. Personally, when I become aware of such issues, I send a note to i...@ietf.org or iaoc-m...@isoc.org, inform them of the is

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

On Mon, 13 Sep 2010, Fred Baker wrote: > As to food issues, I think the hosts of recent meetings at least have > done a pretty good job of pointing people to travel and food options in > the host web sites. I find myself wondering, though, if the data should > be organized in a different way.

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

Hi David, There is already a field in the registration form for folks to list dietary restrictions. And, there's a document discussing various planning issues associated with accomodating the various diets, which includes discusssion of Fred's point about the hosts providing the information as to

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

I'm also irritated by some of the offensiveness in the discussion. To me, several issues appear to be "accessibility" issues, even if the number of IETF Meeting participants affected by them might be rather small. I think it is not appropriate to universally apply a 80/20 good-enough principle wh

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

On 9/13/2010 2:52 PM, Fred Baker wrote: What I find irritating with these discussions What I find irritating with these discussions is the tendency to get irritated. The other thing that is irritating is the tendency to dismiss or attack serious efforts to make serious comments. The nature

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

On Mon, 13 Sep 2010, Dave CROCKER wrote: > Maastricht suffered an impressive variety of problems. Worse, some of those > problems have become a recurring pattern. As examples, we have had a > significant number of venues in recent years that were distant from major > transportation hubs and/or

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

ved] > > Re: All these discussions about meeting venues > > Ole Jacobsen > > to: > > dcrocker > > 09/14/2010 12:08 PM > > Sent by: > > ietf-boun...@ietf.org > > Cc: > > George Michaelson, IETF Discussion > > Please respond

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

>>  As examples, we have had a >> significant number of venues in recent years that were distant from major >> transportation hubs and/or were distant from "local" resources such as the >> usual array of hotels, restaurants, markets and the like. > Of these I can name only Dublin as falling into t

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

On Tue, 14 Sep 2010, Michael Dillon wrote: > Even if you are unwilling to accept these criticisms when CHOOSING venues, I am not at all unwilling to accept the criticisms, I was responding to the claim of a pattern. Maastricht clearly had problems, I think that has been stated more than once.

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

>> Even in Dublin and Maastricht there were >> "restaurant" districts nearby for those with vehicles. > > Virtually no attendee had a vehicle ateither of those venues (or many > others.) People willing to ride on a bus or pay for a taxi are "those with vehicles". The point is that something which

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

Dave, I did not say there were not problems with Dublin, I said (and Michael concurred) that the steps taken to mitigate the issues helped significantly. I am not signalling out CityWest as some kind of ideal location for an IETF meeting, far from it. Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher,

RE: All these discussions about meeting venues

Mary Barnes [mailto://mary.ietf.bar...@gmail.com]> writes: Glen, > > I had zero expectation that Maastricht would be anything like the city > I live in. However, it never crossed my mind to think that the city > would be so deserted when I arrived, nor that I would end up on the > last train. S

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

On 14/09/2010 18:58, Michael Dillon wrote: > Even in Dublin and Maastricht there were > "restaurant" districts nearby for those with vehicles. If the hosts or the > IETF had operated a 15 min. shuttle service to the restaurant districts > from 12 noon to 12 midnight, that would likely have resolved

RE: All these discussions about meeting venues

>Dave Crocker wrote: >But, Fred, the problem really is with having such a varied population of >attendees and then experimenting with new venues every time. This guarantees >problems, because the varied population means that there is a complex set of >requirements. No, all of the issues can

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

On 9/14/2010 9:58 AM, Michael Dillon wrote: Even in Dublin and Maastricht there were "restaurant" districts nearby for those with vehicles. Virtually no attendee had a vehicle ateither of those venues (or many others.) And Dublin arguably had nothing "nearby" even for this elite set of folk

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

On 9/14/2010 9:02 AM, Ole Jacobsen wrote: On Mon, 13 Sep 2010, Dave CROCKER wrote: Maastricht suffered an impressive variety of problems. Worse, some of those problems have become a recurring pattern. As examples, we have had a significant number of venues in recent years that were distant fr

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

On 9/14/2010 10:09 AM, Ole Jacobsen wrote: Dublin had its own set of problems, but as you say below, there was a bus service to the center of town and there were also a few nearby restaurants near the venue and in the two hotels. Ole, This is the sort of comment that does make it seem that th

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

On 9/14/2010 10:28 AM, Michael Dillon wrote: Virtually no attendee had a vehicle ateither of those venues (or many others.) People willing to ride on a bus or pay for a taxi are "those with vehicles". Sorry, no. Waiting for these and paying for these is not convenient or reasonable for 10

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

On Tue, 14 Sep 2010, Dave CROCKER wrote: > Sorry, no. > > Waiting for these and paying for these is not convenient or reasonable for > 1000 people, just to get to daily resources. > > d/ > I have been told that there was a free bus every ten minutes from the MECC to central Maastricht. I did

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

> > > On Mon, 13 Sep 2010, Dave CROCKER wrote: > > Please keep in mind that we have several "non-negotiable" > > requirements for venue selection. The first is actually > > availability of venue on our dates since our dates are FIXED. > > Proposals for changing the meeting model won't necessa

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 09:44:13AM -0700, Ole Jacobsen wrote: > I have been told that there was a free bus every ten minutes from the > MECC to central Maastricht. I did not use it so I cannot say if this > is accurate or not, but assuming it is, would that satisfy? (The ride > to town would have

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

Dave, I give up. We obviously speak different version of English. Since yours is native I am obviously in the wrong. Nothing in what I intended to say rejected yours or any other proposal, I merely expanded a bit on the details and the reality. Sorry to have wasted your time. Ole Ole J. Jaco

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

> I ran into another participant on the bus one day who told me he used > the bus to go and get lunch every day rather than hanging around the > MECC.  He had plenty of time, he said, in the 1.5 hours.  This was, > alas, on Thursday or Friday, so I didn't try it myself.  Given the > time it took me

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

> I give up. We obviously speak different version of English. This is correct. When you see "bus" you think of a pleasant safe clean vehicle that arrives every 5 to 10 minutes, and efficiently takes you to any part of the city that you need. When an American sees "bus" they think of an unpleasant

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

On 15 Sep 2010, at 22:09, Michael Dillon wrote: > Perhaps some additional effort needs to be made to provide guidance > to attendees so that, for instance, everyone attending a Maastricht > event knows that there is a free bus pass, it is 5 minutes to a choice > of restaurants, someone has tested

RE: All these discussions about meeting venues

Hi, >One suggestion for Beijing where the level of English with bus/taxi drivers >etc will be low maybe to publish a page linked from the main meeting page with >something like "Can you please take me to the >Shangri-La Hotel" in Chinese so attendees can just print it out and hand it to >the

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

Hello Ben, You wrote: One suggestion for Beijing where the level of English with bus/taxi drivers etc will be low maybe to publish a page linked from the main meeting page with something like "Can you please take me to the Shangri-La Hotel" in Chinese so attendees can just print it out and hand

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

Also, once you are in the hotel, the concierge can give you a card with directions to where you are going (once you tell him/her) and on the flip side are the directions to the hotel in Chinese. This is very common in China/Taiwan/Hong Kong. A very useful tool. Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Pu

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

Important linguistic note: If we go to the same places over and over, it will interfere with our habit of referring to meetings by location, e.g., "If you'll recall, we agreed at the Anaheim meeting that" --Richard On Sep 14, 2010, at 11:54 AM, Fleischman, Eric wrote: Dave Crocker w

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

Ole, On 9/15/2010 9:40 AM, Ole Jacobsen wrote: As long as the prioritization of requirements is kept the way it is, yes, we will regularly have these sorts of constraints on our choices. No, this is actually regardless of what we prioritize for, assuming we want major venues. The major venues

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

On 9/15/2010 9:44 AM, Ole Jacobsen wrote: I have been told that there was a free bus every ten minutes from the MECC to central Maastricht. I did not use it so I cannot say if this is accurate or not, but assuming it is, would that satisfy? (The ride to town would have been about 5 minutes).

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

On 15 sep 2010, at 19:44, "Ole Jacobsen" wrote: > On Tue, 14 Sep 2010, Dave CROCKER wrote: > >> Sorry, no. >> >> Waiting for these and paying for these is not convenient or reasonable for >> 1000 people, just to get to daily resources. >> >> d/ >> > > I have been told that there was a free b

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

Dave Crocker wrote in one of his abundant messages today: > ps. Some of us, including Ole and me, have expressed our views > overly much and overly strongly. ... I agree. > ... The question, then, > is where the rest of the community lands on this issue? Here we go!

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

Dave CROCKER wrote: > > On 9/14/2010 9:58 AM, Michael Dillon wrote: > > Even in Dublin and Maastricht there were > > "restaurant" districts nearby for those with vehicles. > > Virtually no attendee had a vehicle at either of those venues > (or many others.) > > And Dublin arguably had nothing "n

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

At 12:57 PM +1000 9/13/10, George Michaelson wrote: My impression of what some people seem to want, is that their personal constraint-set be applied globally. My impression is that there are a number of people who choose, against all evidence, to believe this, despite repeated statements of

RE: All these discussions about meeting venues

Hi, >>I might add that if the excluded party feels this is oppressive, I am >>sorry. It is not intended to be. But, at some level, sooner or later, >>you have to be willing to say "I'm the problem here, not the remaining >>999 people who have lesser constraints" > >So, if some venues work qui

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

At 2:52 PM -0700 9/13/10, Fred Baker wrote: What I find irritating with these discussions is the perennial "what idiot did this" tone. What comes across very strongly is that the people whom we trusted enough to place in positions of responsibility grew horns the instant they entered the role

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

At 4:40 PM -0700 9/13/10, Dave CROCKER wrote: The other thing that is irritating is the tendency to dismiss or attack serious efforts to make serious comments. Yes, indeed. -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal;facts are suspect;I speak for myself only -- Randomly sele

Re: All these discussions about meeting venues

At 10:53 AM -0500 9/13/10, Mary Barnes wrote: While no venue is perfect the following venues have been exceptional in terms of meeting the above two requirements: Minneapolis, San Franciso, Paris, London, Chicago, Hiroshima, Yokohama, Vancouver, Seoul By the way, I happen to be in Minneap

RE: All these discussions about meeting venues

At 6:39 PM +0200 9/22/10, Christer Holmberg wrote: I think one question is: WHO is responsible for dealing with a specific "problem"? In most of the emails, people are only asking for reasonable access to resources for solving the problem, not that someone else solve the problem. As has b

RE: All these discussions about meeting venues

On Wed, 22 Sep 2010, Randall Gellens wrote: > At 6:39 PM +0200 9/22/10, Christer Holmberg wrote: > > > I think one question is: WHO is responsible for dealing with a specific > > "problem"? > > In most of the emails, people are only asking for reasonable access to > resources for solving the pro