Re: [ietf-dkim] the non-problem of contributor signatures, was DKIM Scouts

2011-05-31 Thread John R. Levine
I didn't posit this as a problem. Others did. I jumped in at the point that you said s/mime was already a solution, with a message that proved otherwise. It would be better to say that if there were a problem, and people wanted to solve it, the pieces are all there with S/MIME. MUAs all know

Re: [ietf-dkim] DKIM Scouts, was 8bit downgrades

2011-05-31 Thread Ian Eiloart
On 26 May 2011, at 14:40, John R. Levine wrote: >>> So this tells me that existing mail software doesn't try very hard to >>> recover signatures from modified messages, even for simple changes that >>> don't need any guessing or heuristics to undo. >> >> My client found the signature, otherwis

Re: [ietf-dkim] DKIM Scouts, was 8bit downgrades

2011-05-31 Thread Ian Eiloart
On 26 May 2011, at 14:40, John R. Levine wrote: >>> So this tells me that existing mail software doesn't try very hard to >>> recover signatures from modified messages, even for simple changes that >>> don't need any guessing or heuristics to undo. >> >> My client found the signature, otherwis

Re: [ietf-dkim] New canonicalizations

2011-05-31 Thread Dave Crocker
Steve Atkins wrote: > >On May 30, 2011, at 3:23 PM, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: >> or at least the chain-of-trust capability, but no proof that the >increased risk is worth the increased gain. >> >Chain of trust is a somewhat different thing, and could likely be >implemented with little, if any,

Re: [ietf-dkim] New canonicalizations

2011-05-31 Thread John R. Levine
> Chain of trust is always an appealing model. Unfortunately, it hasn't > been used successfully over the open Internet. I agree with your doubts about the utility of chain of trust, but I would have to say that SSL signed web sites are used successfully over the open Internet. Regards, John

Re: [ietf-dkim] MLMs and signatures again

2011-05-31 Thread Ian Eiloart
On 26 May 2011, at 23:19, Steve Atkins wrote: > That's relying on an awful lot of vaporware in the MUA, orthogonal to any > sort of authentication. I don't think any MUAs really track sender reputation > in any way[1]. Certainly Outlook with Exchange does. If you mark a message as spam, then

Re: [ietf-dkim] New canonicalizations

2011-05-31 Thread Alessandro Vesely
On 31/May/11 00:23, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: >> -Original Message- >> From: On Behalf Of Steve Atkins >> >> The most obvious thing that MLMs do that invalidate signatures are 1. >> append content to the body and 2. prepend content to the subject line. >> Any approach that allows me to r