In an effort to generate some debate, and give people some ideas when
designing Jabber clients, I have put together a brief tutorial document
which is up on my site.
http://aurora.gen.nz/jabber_design/
Can I ask some people who are more familiar with the Jabber protocol to take
5 minutes and rea
Julian (x-virge) and I were discussing client design yesterday and I
think you are a prime example of our discussion. There is a problem
with Jabber, in general it's not everyones first IM client. Users have
generally been on another large network (AIM, ICQ, MSN, Yahoo!) before
they come to Jabb
I, of course, agree with temas here. I have quite a few comments
already, but I'll look at your guide a bit more thoroughly tomorrow and
make a reply.
One major thing that struck me was that you said server hard disk space
won't be wasted by history.
My logs from the past two years total 50 m
> Julian (x-virge) and I were discussing client design
> yesterday and I think you are a prime example of
> our discussion. There is a problem with Jabber,
> in general it's not everyones first IM client.
Great! I've always wanted to be a prime example :-)
It's true I guess, but it's not the o
> I, of course, agree with temas here. I have quite a few
> comments already, but I'll look at your guide a bit
> more thoroughly tomorrow and make a reply.
Thanks, that would be great.
> One major thing that struck me was that you said
> server hard disk space won't be wasted by history.
Did
On Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 06:51:01PM +1000, Michael Brown wrote:
>
> Also, the argument about switching from one of the proprietary services also
> applies to switching between Jabber clients, so it would be nice to have
> some sort of consistency between them if possible.
I'd have to respectfully
> > Also, the argument about switching from one of the proprietary services
also
> > applies to switching between Jabber clients, so it would be nice to have
> > some sort of consistency between them if possible.
>
> I'd have to respectfully disagree there... I don't want a
> one-size-fits-all wor
On Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 09:53:46PM +1000, Michael Brown wrote:
> >
> > I'd have to respectfully disagree there... I don't want a
> > one-size-fits-all world, and I relish the diversity of
> > clients available right now.
>
> I didn't mean to imply that they should all be the same, but there is so
your doc, but I thought
I'd fire this off as more of an "general feel about UI design on clients".
Peter Millard
- Original Message -
From: "Michael Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 2:51 AM
Subjec
I think it's great that someone is paying attention to UI design, but I doubt that this document is going to be too useful. My impression is that developers who really care about good UI will tend to already know the things you're pointing out (they will steal ideas from the commercial clients, or
On Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 10:27:57AM -0700, Jens Alfke wrote:
> ugly that does the job. (At the risk of starting a flame war, in my
> experience nearly all Unix programmers tend to fall into the latter
> category.) No design document like yours will really reach the people
Don't worry, I'm not g
Hi. I find your GUI example interesting in many ways.
I especially like your focus on keeping the client
small and unobtrusive.
What surprises me is that not you or anyone in the
entire software world has tried to implement Jef
Raskin's "Humane Interface". It is by far the most
clever interface I'
DJ,
>Don't worry, I'm not going to flame - I agree with what you're
>saying, but it's important to say why they (I suppose I should
>use the word 'we') build clients that appear ugly to a lot of
>people - I for one *hate* having to point and click and follow
>cascading menus and have my screen c
On Monday, September 24, 2001, at 01:00 PM, Rikard Linde wrote:
[Jef] Raskin is the guy who designed the Macintosh
This is way, way off-topic, but Raskin did not design the Macintosh. He was the one who originally proposed and championed building a small, all-in-one, easy-to-use "appliance" comp
> >I much prefer to control an app with my main input device - my
> >keyboard - by a combination of keystrokes or whatever.
>
> How is this different from 'hotkeys'(like Alt <- for back on a browser, or
> Ctl-c to cut) that most(?) applications come with?
The difference is that command-line cli
First off, I don't believe in the idea of having similar-looking Jabber
clients. It would be nice to have a defacto client for each OS which
looks and acts similarly, but beyond that, I want creativity to shine. I
want to see different approaches at IM, not 20 VB clients for windows
which look
On 24/09/2001 at 9:57 PM Julian Missig wrote:
>First off, I don't believe in the idea of having similar-looking Jabber
>clients. It would be nice to have a defacto client for each OS which
>looks and acts similarly, but beyond that, I want creativity to shine. I
>want to see different approach
Julian Fitzell wrote:
> On 24/09/2001 at 9:57 PM Julian Missig wrote:
>
> But, even if a user doesn't intent to log on multiple times simultaneously, a
>description of where they are currently logged in from is still useful. Surely it is
>clear to a user that they are entering a description o
thing that gets us thinking about the end user and how
they use Jabber is a good thing.
Keep up the great work guys.
cheers,
Darren
-Original Message-
From: Julian Missig [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 6:57 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [JDEV]
Oh, yes, I agree. We still are lacking a very good windows client. We
definitely need some UI designers (who are aware of the Windows UI
guidelines, by the way, and try to make the app follow them) to work
with some programmers to get a really good windows client out there. But
that's complete
On 24/09/2001 at 10:36 PM Julian Missig wrote:
>Well, in the few tests I did, whenever I asked for something like that,
>they would turn around and ask me if I meant their country or their city
>or what. However, this was most likely an issue of wording which deserves
>further investigation. Askin
>> But, even if a user doesn't intent to log on multiple times simultaneously, a
>description
of where they are currently logged in from is still useful. Surely it is clear to a
user that
they are entering a description of what computer they are logging in from and when
they look at another
I've been reading this list for about a month while slowly writing a
'Jabber Client'.
I do believe UI is important, but my client doesn't have one yet.
Actually my client is a module for a webserver called AOLserver.
I am late coming to Jabber. I first found out about it from an article
in _Lin
On Monday, September 24, 2001, at 07:25 PM, Julian Fitzell wrote:
> If I gave a Jabber client to an inexperienced Jabber user and it said
> enter a description of where you are connecting from, they would enter
> "Home" or "Laptop" or something and then they would never have to worry
> about
On Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 01:36:01PM -0700, Ragavan S wrote:
>
> How is this different from 'hotkeys'(like Alt <- for back on a browser, or
> Ctl-c to cut) that most(?) applications come with?
Because there's no overhead (screen real-estate or otherwise) that's
to be lost to 'useless' menus and s
On Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 08:23:28PM -0700, Tom Jackson wrote:
> I hope this was not too off topic, but the UI is an extremely labor
> intensive process. If significant functions can be added without the
> constant need to worry about the UI programming, it might speed up use
> of Jabber as a techno
> Oh, yes, I agree. We still are lacking a very good windows client. We
> definitely need some UI designers (who are aware of the Windows UI
> guidelines, by the way, and try to make the app follow them) to work
> with some programmers to get a really good windows client out there.
The best way t
ample.
Michael.
- Original Message -
From: "Peter Millard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 3:13 AM
Subject: Re: [JDEV] Jabber Client Design Tutorial
> Michael -
>
> I have lots to say about your "guideli
> Don't worry, I'm not going to flame - I agree with what you're
> saying, but it's important to say why they (I suppose I should
> use the word 'we') build clients that appear ugly to a lot of
> people - I for one *hate* having to point and click and follow
> cascading menus and have my screen c
m: "Rikard Linde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 6:00 AM
Subject: Re: [JDEV] Jabber Client Design Tutorial
> Hi. I find your GUI example interesting in many ways.
> I especially like your focus on keeping the client
> smal
Re: http://www.aurora.gen.nz/jabber_design
Some detailed points:* You make the point that the client should
integrate into the operating system's GUI, but then you show Mac-style flippy
triangles for the group show/hide controls on a Windows client. For it to be
Windows-like it shoul
> >Don't worry, I'm not going to flame - I agree with what you're
> >saying, but it's important to say why they (I suppose I should
> >use the word 'we') build clients that appear ugly to a lot of
> >people - I for one *hate* having to point and click and follow
> >cascading menus and have my scr
"Michael Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Don't worry, I'm not going to flame - I agree with what you're
>> saying, but it's important to say why they (I suppose I should
>> use the word 'we') build clients that appear ugly to a lot of
>> people - I for one *hate* having to point and click a
On Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 02:51 AM, Michael Brown wrote:
> The main problem was that I needed a three-phase icon (for when you get
> an event from someone in a collapsed group), and couldn't think of
> anything beyond the + and -. Also, to replicate the +/- style usually
> means sho
On 25/09/2001 at 10:34 AM Jens Alfke wrote:
>* What happens if you send an IM to a specific resource which is
>offline? Does it bounce, does it go to the highest-priority online
>resource, or is it queued until that resource logs on? If the latter,
>then there might be a use in IM'ing an offli
> > The main problem was that I needed a three-phase icon (for when you get
> > an event from someone in a collapsed group), and couldn't think of
> > anything beyond the + and -. Also, to replicate the +/- style usually
> > means showing the tree branches, which takes up horizontal room,
> > resu
> >> Don't worry, I'm not going to flame - I agree with what you're
> >> saying, but it's important to say why they (I suppose I should
> >> use the word 'we') build clients that appear ugly to a lot of
> >> people - I for one *hate* having to point and click and follow
> >> cascading menus and ha
> Peter, thanks for the reply, but I was hoping for something a bit more
> helpful. There seems to be a large amount of people who are prepared to
> stand up and say "This looks like the ICQ interface which is Bad" but
there
> are more productive ways to comment. If you are going to take the tim
On Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 12:51 AM, Michael Brown wrote:
Really really bad idea. In an IM (or most things GUI related) anything
flashing should be reserved for something that requires the users attention.
In this case an event (usually a message).
That is exactly the situation descri
RE: http://www.aurora.gen.nz/jabber_design
> My primary goal in building Winjab was to essentially create a unified
> messaging "application" that could handle all kinds of messages and forums
> that you would normally communicate in. These forums included:
> - email
> - one on one chats
RE:
http://www.aurora.gen.nz/jabber_design
On Wednesday, September 26, 2001, at 12:51 AM, Michael Brown
wrote:
Really really bad idea. In an IM (or most things GUI related)
anythingflashing should be reserved for something that requires the
users attention.In this case
My friend Nick spent a few days recently adding to it. He's at home right
now, but we can see where he's at hoepfully tomorrow (Sun).
--temas
Peter Saint-Andre writes:
> Perhaps we can add this stuff to the recently-rediscovered glossary?
>
> http://docs.jabber.org/general/html/glossary.ht
I just posted some ideas about a humane interface at:
http://interface.blogspot.com
This is the first draft and there's a lot (of
explanations) missing but I thought you might wanna
look at it anyway. If I get time I'll make some pretty
screenshots just like Michael:-)
Rikard
_
For some reason the BlogSpot address doesn't seem to
work. Sorry about that. The document about making a
Humane Jabber interface is now situated at:
http://www.sprinterface.com/humaneinterface.html
Rikard
_
Do You Yahoo!?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] - s
Not quite how I defined things in the glossary, but I rather like it. :)
Maybe I'll update http://docs.jabber.org/general/html/glossary.html this
weekend
Peter
--
Peter Saint-Andre
email/jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.saint-andre.com/
On Fri, 28 Sep 2001, Dave Waite wrote:
> Mic
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
cc:
Subject: Re: [JDEV] Jabber Client Design Tutorial
Michael Brown wrote:
>
>>Perhaps as a first step we can find some agreement about terminology
>>("roster" vs. "contact list" vs. "buddy list", "trans
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> cc:
> Subject: Re: [JDEV] Jabber Client Design Tutorial
>
>
> Michael Brown wrote:
>
> >
> >>Perhaps as a first step we can find some agreement about terminology
> >>("roster" vs. &quo
derful and versatile that it can be used for so
many, many different things.
MikeE
-Original Message-
From: Peter Saint-Andre [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 11:46 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [JDEV] Jabber Client Design Tutorial
Perhaps as a first step w
ent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
cc:
Subject: Re: [JDEV] Jabber Client Design Tutorial
I have several here:
http://www.saint-andre.com/jabber/xml/
Peter
--
Peter Saint-Andre
email/jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.saint-andre.com/
On Fri, 28 Sep 2001, Stuart Dor
Perhaps we can add this stuff to the recently-rediscovered glossary?
http://docs.jabber.org/general/html/glossary.html
Peter
--
Peter Saint-Andre
email/jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.saint-andre.com/
On Thu, 27 Sep 2001, Julian Missig wrote:
> There's one thing I agree with. :) I d
Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> Perhaps we can add this stuff to the recently-rediscovered glossary?
>
> http://docs.jabber.org/general/html/glossary.html
yep, that sounds good. i'm all for a new, improved Glossary.
also, stpeter, i'd like to work with you on re-doing the jabber user's
guide. mak
There is so much talk on what a Jabber Client should be, me thinks we should
build a summary of the arguments for future UI reference. And use that to
direct
new UI IM clients as they get started on their journey to swell design.
Any new
UI documents in the works as a response to the first one (w
Perhaps as a first step we can find some agreement about terminology
("roster" vs. "contact list" vs. "buddy list", "transport" vs. "gateway",
etc.)
Peter
--
Peter Saint-Andre
email/jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.saint-andre.com/
On Thu, 27 Sep 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> There
There's one thing I agree with. :) I do feel we should come up with a
nice little guide to the suggested terms to use for various features,
when/where they should be used, and how they can be explained to the user.
Now if only I could find a way to sleep *and* do this stuff at the same
time...
> Perhaps as a first step we can find some agreement about terminology
> ("roster" vs. "contact list" vs. "buddy list", "transport" vs. "gateway",
> etc.)
I actually prefer "Contact List" but "Roster" seems to be well defined for
Jabber - which I can live with - although it does sound a little
>I've always been confused between "Transports"/"Gateways"/"Agents" so if
>someone could clear that up for me that would be great.
First of all a warning. I am gong to provide canonical deffinitions then I will
provide usage
deffinitions. Some of what I say will seem incorrect to some people,
Michael Brown wrote:
>
>>Perhaps as a first step we can find some agreement about terminology
>>("roster" vs. "contact list" vs. "buddy list", "transport" vs. "gateway",
>>etc.)
>>
>
>I actually prefer "Contact List" but "Roster" seems to be well defined for
>Jabber - which I can live with - alth
On Monday, September 24, 2001, at 07:25 PM, Julian Fitzell wrote:
> If I gave a Jabber client to an inexperienced Jabber user and it said
> enter a description of where you are connecting from, they would enter
> "Home" or "Laptop" or something and then they would never have to worry
> about
On Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 10:44:15AM -0600, Dave Waite wrote:
> I'll take a stab; how about:
>
[stab]
>
> How is that? :-)
Really good :-)
dj
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