Your third paragraph sounds so sensible to me. I've had a gut feeling
recently that fluency is the present education craze, but a passing
phase. It is an easy improvement to be able to measure, but does it
actually develop comprehension skills. Thanks for your knowledgeable
input.
Zoe
I was privileged and honored to visit the WOO and meet Steve Orel. There are
few people in this world who embody the courage and justice that Steve had.
The following is from the ARN list.
Nancy Creech
Gloria Pipkin, coordinator of the Florida Coalition for Assessment
Reform, posted
I am going to jump in and share my own thoughts. I agree that fluency
may be a craze, and may be passing phase, especially if it is nothing
more than teaching kids to read fast and faster.
However, reading fluency and comprehension are strongly connected. When
children read words
Your third paragraph sounds so sensible to me. I've had a gut feeling
recently that fluency is the present education craze, but a passing
phase. It is an easy improvement to be able to measure, but does it
actually develop comprehension skills. Thanks for your knowledgeable
input.
Zoe
Thanks for this interesting discussion, Tim. I will now respectfully,
find the quote about how the correlation between fluency and
comprhension falls to near zero after the very beginning stages of
reading. It is in my book. It is cited in Stahl's chapter in the NRP
and I will reformat it
I agree with you whole heartedly Elaine. I think fluency is best taught
by having kids listen to good fluent models and then giving them the
chance to practice under the guidance of a teacher. The practice should
be aimed at reading with expression and meaning and should include
materials that
Elaine,
I agree completely. So many of the activities that are suggested for
addressing fluency as simply good teaching, good language play--and with the
exception of repeated readings with a timer in hand--have been part of
effective classroom practice for a long time. That is, until NCLB and
Thanks, Tim-- I'm glad we're not arguing!!! That's the tricky thing
about discussions. It's hard to articulate ideas that may not totally
converge with those of others without sounding confrontational
especially to those you respect. So I'm grateful for this post and for
pointing out the
I am going to have to respectfully disagree with the comment that there
is a zero correlation between fluency and comprehension beyond first
grade. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that fluency is a huge
concern with our struggling readers through high school. luency
Ok, here are the
Those quotes are correct. I think the more recent research, though, is
moving us forward. We have found correlations between .50 - .60 between
fluency and comprehension for older students.Not huge, but not
insignificant either.
Fluency instruction should not be aimed to get kids thinking
Elaine: Not arguing at all -- I think it is important to hear how
others think about things and then to write in response. For me, the
writing helps me articulate and clarify my own thinking on things. I
appreciate your comments very much Elaine, as well as everyone else who
has written.
Those quotes are correct. I think the more recent research, though, is
moving us forward. We have found correlations between .50 - .60
between
fluency and comprehension for older students.Not huge, but not
insignificant either
Tim. I'd love to see the studies you refer to. And again,
Tim,
After reading innumerable posts on this and other sites about the various
opinions out there about fluency, I've come to the conclusion that the concerns
are more about instructional practices and academic decisions that are made
based on a fluency score. In my opinion there are
Hi Tim,
I don´t think anyone is saying that fluency is worthless. I think the question
was about a child who can read silently with comprehension but reads haltingly
aloud. I still believe that there is no cause to worry in this case. To me,
it´s the same issue that comes up when people say
BINGO! Comprehension influences fluency! Get the kids to comprehend, and you
will hear it!
elaine garan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: . . . And again, as you've pointed
out, correlation is not causation and therefore, it is entirely possible and
maybe even likely, that comprehension is
I don't have all the research to back me up. I just have several years'
experience. Experience tells me that with most kids: When a kid
understands what he/she is reading, fluency shows it. I use myself as an
example. I see fluency as a performance. I have always told my kids I was a
On Jul 8, 2007, at 10:07 AM, kimberlee hannan wrote:
I don't have all the research to back me up. I just have several
years'
experience. Experience tells me that with most kids: When a kid
understands what he/she is reading, fluency shows it. I use myself as
an
example. I see
On 7/8/07 10:07 AM, kimberlee hannan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I don't have all the research to back me up. I just have several years'
experience. Experience tells me that with most kids: When a kid
understands what he/she is reading, fluency shows it. I use myself as an
example. I see
I sent this out late Friday night but I haven't seen it on the list so if
you already received it please disregard this resend.- Ginger
+++
Just a reminder that our book talk on Strategies That Work is set to begin
on Monday, July 16 and run through August 13. Get your book and
Two years ago, I worked with a fourth grade class of struggling readers who
where from 6 months to 3 years below grade level at the start of the year.
(Let it be said here, the regular classroom teacher was also struggling and on
an assistance plan. Part of my job was to help him
Kimberlee ...
the wpm part of the DRA2 worries me for the same reason
-Original Message-
From: Renee [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group
mosaic@literacyworkshop.org
Sent: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 1:36 pm
Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings
Hello Elaine and Tim,
Regarding Elaine's quote from Steven Stahl “Oral reading accuracy is
related to comprehension only in first and second grades with the
correlations in third grade and beyond falling to near zero” (p. 190).
Question: Is it significant that, at least in this quote, he used
Question: Is it significant that, at least in this quote, he used the
word
accuracy rather than fluency? Seems to me that reading with
feeling/intonation is a different thing than accuracy -- related, but
different (same for speed, as well). What does the research -- Tim's
and
I have never appreciated the two 1-minute tests we must do every 6 weeks
with the fifth grade Open Court program. We now have permission to skip the
tests for those students reading 145 wpm or more.
I do have to agree with Tim about the importance of fluency and good
intonation for comprehension
Francie,
I am teaching summer school and have a group of 28
second graders who have the following problems:
--inattentive to print--not looking at pictures and
at initial and final letters, thereby they read
whatever or skip a word (some are reversal) they have
little sense of monitoring their
I think that we can understand comprehension at a word level, a sentence
level, a paragraph level and then at the chapter or whole text level. I have
seen lots of kids who know when they make word rec errors and can correct them
using meaning and syntax at the sentence level, but who can't
I may be speaking out of ignorance, here. But, maybe I need a specific
definition of fluency. In the measured definitions of DRA, HM, or any
other testing, I see it as speed. When you time something, speed is a
factor. However, as I think about it, to be fluent in speaking a foreign
language,
Nancy
I have seen kids like this...I wonder how much schema he had for this
reading? I am privileged to teach kids in school with lots of parent support
and
the kids come with lots of school-type background knowledge. Some of these kids
comprehend things that they struggle through simply
I know you didn't write this to me, but I am butting in,
These students are have completed three to four years of Reading First. That
is the problem. There is no writing stressed in RF.
I totally understand where you are coming from. I think you are absolutely
got them on the right track.
Francie,
i had a similar group one summer throw in some were ELL students. We used
readers theater scripts and were able to work on all the problems you
mentioned.
The best part was that the kids like it so they worked really hard to give
their best performance.
Sue
Elaine: Here is the reference to one study with high school kids:
Rasinski, T., Padak, N., McKeon, C., Krug,-Wilfong, L., Friedauer, J., Heim,
P. (2005) Is Reading Fluency a Key for Successful High School Reading?
Journal of Adolescent and Adult Literacy, 49, 22-27.
Although the
I agree with you whole heartedly Elaine. I think fluency is best taught
by having kids listen to good fluent models and then giving them the
chance to practice under the guidance of a teacher. The practice should
be aimed at reading with expression and meaning and should include
materials that
Pat, you wrote unless he was reading something
very high interest ---I think that that is the
avenue to getting kids to read more---read something
that they are interested in---and high interst
material is available at all levels. We need to get
administrators to buy into buying a variety of
On 7/8/07 2:27 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I also have been reading an IRA publication called Why Johnny Couldn't
Read---and How He Learned. The author studied successful adults who struggled
with
reading in school but read and comprehend well as adults.
I have one more thought that's been bubbling around in my head. It goes
along with what you say here, Beverlee and maybe expands on it a
little. In addition to the messages we send kids by timing them,
regardless of what WE are thinking, I'm wondering about the whole idea
of words per
But Tim, the point of miscue is to work with the child to address those
issues which are impacting meaning and certainly think that halting heading
behaviors, unnecessary rereading and even over-correcting can certainly be
impacting oral fluency. Again, is it wide and successful reading that
Gayla,
I also am interested...could you let me know as well? I teach second grade.
Thank you,
Janice
Loyd or Gayla King [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
You said:
I'm really having difficulty with how to assign grades in reading workshop.
Can someone help me with that? I want to switch
Well said! Wish more fluency biggies were listening!
Original Message Follows
From: RASINSKI, TIMOTHY [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email
Groupmosaic@literacyworkshop.org
To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email
Renee - I think our profession is in kind of a mood, and justifiably so.
It's as though we've all taken leave of our senses -- well, I mean the
decision-makers, I guess, not us. But when you see things like SRA's
corrective reading try to teach vocabulary words such as amblng in call and
And following that BINGO! For the fluency overboarders: Just because
comprehension most often influences fluency, does not mean that fluency
CAUSES comprehension. That little break in logic has enormous consequence
when we don't get it!
BINGO! Comprehension influences fluency! Get the
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