Bill,
Isn't it funny though that OpenDNS is funded by the same group who funded
Paxfire?
www.minorventures.com
OpenDNS can be an angel on one shoulder while Paxfire is on the other,
right?
Ray
On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 9:09 PM, bill fumerola <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
Dorn Hetzel wrote:
> Of course, my chemistry is a little rusty, so I'm not sure about the
> prospects for a non-toxic, non-flammable, non-conductive substance
> with workable fluid flow and heat transfer properties :)
For some of us over-the-edge pc enthusiasts, we use a non-conductive heat
transf
current partner $4000 per month for 100,000 records per day. If you
would like to setup a test so we can determine the value of your data please
contact me at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please note that if you can also bring in other partners we will pay a 10%
recurring finders fee.
Ray
>
> On 2008-03-10, Joe Shen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > is there any tool could measue e2e TCP connection speed?
>
WireShark, which also has a basic analysis package built-in for error and
connection setup statistics.
--
Scanned for viruses and dangerous content at
http://www.oneunifi
Triple play Solutions use DSCP all over the place. Lots of differenciated
services, especially when subscriber management comes into play. Triple play is
turning into 4 and 5xplay, then add the varying degrees of service and bundles
available across the different services, and different requirem
What ever happened to pushing on the traditional class A owners to free up
their address space?
I can't help but think that the issue has always been mis management of the
early assigned address blocks. Look at Nortel's block for instance... How many
addresses are actually reachable directly fr
data in the file.
Ray
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> David Conrad
> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 3:03 PM
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: nanog@merit.edu
> Subject: Re: Question on 7.0.0.0/8
>
>
> Mich
generate a page of customer
specific graphs in a user-authenticated web site.
Ray.
--
Scanned for viruses and dangerous content at
http://www.oneunified.net and is believed to be clean.
>
> > How about something like:
> > http://www.hdfgroup.org/whatishdf5.html
>
> I don't think they support transactional updates, which makes
> it hard to use for live data. (A simple crash, and you need
> to recover from
> backup.)
Going back to this thread, http://www.kx.com/ deals in fin
Does anyone know what issues global crossing might be having in LA area?
All of my VPNs via global crossing were getting routed to europe and
back, i.e.
1<1 ms<1 ms<1 ms 192.168.11.1
2 9 ms11 ms15 ms 10.35.192.1
3 9 ms 7 ms 7 ms cpe-24-30-162-217.s
>
> But to start with, just solving the data storage problem is a
> good place to start. If someone can create a specialized
> network monitoring database that scales, then the rest of the
> toolkit will be much easier to deal with. Note that people
> have done a lot of research on this sort
>
>
> Maybe this is overly naïve, but what about the ability to
> auto-magically import and search various vendor SNMP/WMI
> MIBs? I can think of 3 open source NMS that do a good job if
> you set up all 3 to monitor the network, but they all overlap
> and none of them really do a good job.
I see a reference in the response to RTG. RTG's claim to fame looks like
speed.
I've done some work with Cricket and have figured out a way to get at it's
schema. I've been looking at mating Cricket' s 'getter and schema with
Drraw and genDevConfig tools and putting a Mason based HTML wrapper
Things are good now. Cisco QoS and SLA's are indeed viewable
with Cricket.
Ray
http://www.oneunified.net/blog/
--
Scanned for viruses and dangerous content at
http://www.oneunified.net and is believed to be clean.
> Ray,
>
>Do you have an example of accessing the SLA data via SNMP?
> I've just got interested in those things, I've found the OIDs
> required, but its all a bit of a maze ... I could really use
> some jitter information in a couple of places right about n
day or two.
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of nealr
> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 17:58
> To: nanog@merit.edu
> Subject: Cisco SLA data access via SNMP?
>
>
>
> Ray,
>
>Do you have
If you have Cisco routers on either end, use the built in SLA capability.
It will give you ongoing abilty to trace latency, loss, jitter. It won't
tell you bandwidth, but will give you a set of metrics for traffic quality.
Do a full mesh between all your edge devices and it might help track where
http://www.bitdefender.com
-
11:13 PM
To: Ed Ray; nanog@merit.edu
Subject: RE: Cogent now peering with Sprint?
That looks like a transit connection that Cogent bought at Ashburn, VA,
not SFI peering connection.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Ed Ray
Sent: Tuesday
dazedandconfused.netsecdesign.com (66.6.208.4) [AS 11509] 84 msec
84 msec 88 msec
14 portus.netsecdesign.com (66.6.208.6) [AS 11509] 84 msec 84 msec 88
msec
Next I will see pigs flying :) Wonder how long it will last based on
Cogent's past behavior as noted here.
Edwar
#x27;s definitely not as easy to configure as some of
the others (especially as far as graphing is concerned), but it's getting
better. Incredibly reliable however, and scales extremely well.
Very helpful mailing list also.
I'd definitely recommend giving it a test run.
Ray
re
horsepower and we do need a couple PCI ports on 'em.
Ray
d a couple PCI slots for quad port ethernet cards and a fairly
robust tolerance to temperature variations.
I like what I see at Advantech -- anyone have any testimonies as to what
they've had success/problems with?
Ray
ch to customers who needed them to satisfy various
regulatory requirements. Other than SQL Slammer and the occasional HTTP PHP
exploit attempts, I rarely see anything of consequence.
Edward W. Ray
CISSP, MCSE+Security, P.E., SANS GCIA Gold, SANS GCIH Gold
President
NetSec Design & Consulting
http
assign an address
(operates at layer2 instead of layer 3).
Edward W. Ray
CISSP, MCSE+Security, P.E., SANS GCIA Gold, SANS GCIH Gold
President
NetSec Design & Consulting
http://www.netsecdesign.com
(714) 997-9226
A few more comments.
I found a link to snmp management for ospf in an archive message:
http://www.cisco.com/en/US/tech/tk869/tk769/technologies_white_paper09186a00
801177ff.shtml. That may yield you the info you need for monitoring links
and/or routes.
>From my other message, if you collect 1
1. Cricket with Acktomic tools to monitor Cisco SLA/SAA/RTR values
2. ospf snmp traps to snmptrapd? I think somewhere in the archives someone
did some perl scripting to watch ospf stuff. OSPF has some mibs that can be
used for data gathering. Ed Ravin had an add-on for
http://linux.kernel.org/s
ime.
Also their NxT1 stuff is per-packet or per-flow(?) only, although I think
they are going to be offering MLPPP soon.
Ray
Wiltel is owned by Level3 now. Try contacting them, although with the
integration just starting I suspect it will be difficult.
bad, I would
appreciate the feedback.
Thanks in advance.
Edward W. Ray
CISSP, MCSE 2003+Security, P.E., SANS GCIA Gold, SANS GCIH Gold
s not necessarily better or worse, but when government
abdicates its role as the regulator of free markets, it is most definitely
worse.
Edward Ray
s not necessarily better or worse, but when government
abdicates its role as the regulator of free markets, it is most definitely
worse.
Edward Ray
nd insurance in order
to drive said vehicle, why not something similar for PCs. You would have to
get the whole world to agree on that one, so it may be difficult to
implement. But the US,EU, Japan, Australia should take the lead and
implement something like this.
Ed Ray
Or a Security bundle with an
Etherswitch.
http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/ps5853/products_data_sheet0900aecd8022e567.html
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jacky LamSent:
Monday, February 20, 2006 13:47To: nanog@merit.eduSubject:
Cisco 3550 replacement
Hi
Maybe a 2811 with an Etherswitch
module?
http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/ps5854/products_data_sheet0900aecd8016fa68.html
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jacky LamSent:
Monday, February 20, 2006 13:47To: nanog@merit.eduSubject:
Cisco 3550 replacement
Hi
This presentation was made at the ARIN meeting in Orlando earlier in the
year. It is also available at
http://www.arin.net/meetings/minutes/ARIN_XV/PDF/mon/mei-wang.pdf
Ray
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> [EMAIL PROTECTE
h them to certain hosts
from about 6am to 2pm daily (PST).
A basic traceroute always shows the latency to pop up between 152.63.57.49
(alter.net) and 144.232.9.1 (Sprint). I have been told there is a
bandwidth overutilization issue here and it will be resolved late January.
Ray
PS: I was goin
comments, advises
> and
> > > experiences for such situations.
> > >
> > > Our humble approach was to collect some p2p
> ports
> > and
> > > police traffic to these ports, but the traffic
> wasnt much,
> >
> > > one other thing
No problem here
754 ms53 ms52 ms as-0-0.mp1.Seattle1.Level3.net
[209.247.10.137]
851 ms51 ms51 ms ge-10-1.hsa2.Seattle1.Level3.net
[4.68.105.71]
951 ms56 ms57 ms unknown.Level3.net [63.211.200.246]
1042 ms40 ms41 ms ptck-core2-gw.nero.net
My cogent traffic is getting routed to my other peers here in Orange County,
CA and I cannot access http://www.cogentco.com either.
Edward W. Ray
CISSP, MCSE 2003+Security, P.E., SANS GCIA Gold, SANS GCIH Gold
President
NetSec Design & Consulting
http://www.netsecdesign.com
(714) 997-9226
me, I decided to go with the $29.95 special.
My ISP already peers with Level3, and Roadrunner peers with Level3 (AS3356)
and AOL (AS 1668). My goal is to block all routes via Roadrunner/Level3 and
force all inbound and outbound traffic via Roadrunner to go through AS 1668
only.
Edward W
66.6.208.1/24, ASN is currently 11509 but I will be getting my own shortly.
Edward W. Ray
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Hannigan, Martin
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 11:54 AM
To: Edward W. Ray; nanog@merit.edu
Subject: RE: Using
this, or
would this require knowledge of all possible downstream router IP addresses?
Edward W. Ray
Robert is also a member of the ARIN Advisory Council.
Ray
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> Malayter, Christopher
> Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 12:54 PM
> To: 'nanog@merit.edu'
> Subject: Chang
operators.
Ray
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 7:19 AM
> To: Andrei Robachevsky
> Cc: Elmar K. Bins; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: anycast roots
>
>
orking Group at 9 AM, Thursday
morning in the Georgetown room. The session is also multicast.
Ray
destined for
their customer domains. Some spam gets through their filters, because
spammers are smart and adaptively evil. It's really quite simple.
--
Ray Wong
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Good point! You can reduce TTLs to such a point that the servers will
become preoccupied with doing something other than providing answers.
Ray
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> Daniel Karrenberg
> Sent: Thursday, July 2
On Tuesday, 29 June, I assigned the ARIN General Counsel the task to review
and prepare the necessary filings to either intervene formally or as an
amicus in the case filed in the Superior Court of New Jersey Chancery
Division for Morris County No: MRSC-87-04. ARIN's interest in reviewing
this di
I have assigned the ARIN General Counsel, who is an experienced litigator,
the task to review and prepare the necessary filings to either intervene
formally in the New Jersey case, or as an amicus. ARIN will be striving to
educate the court to understand more accurately the legal and policy issue
Or if you can't reach em, even good old traceroute can be useful...
Ray
On Thu, Jun 24, 2004 at 09:45:24AM -0700, Mike Damm wrote:
>
>
> A reminder to folks giving status reports on anycasted DNS deployments,
> don't forget to mention which node you are querying.
&g
to their business is unpleasant enough, but it's also common enough
to make singling anyone out as slimy to be a bit disingenuous.
I'd hazard to guess that a large number of folks on this list work
for employers with similarly "ridiculous" patents.
--
Ray Wong
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Tue, 25 May 2004 16:02:57 -0700, you wrote:
>Hello,
> I'm looking for advice and recommendations on WAN (T1 speeds)
>accelerator devices. I've seen the literature on the offerings from
>Peribit, NetCelera and Packeteer and am looking for some real-world
>feedback. Can anyone provide me
On Tue, 25 May 2004 15:37:10 -0400, you wrote:
>Hello!
>
>Does anybody happen to know of any open source project working on a BGP
>route optimizer like what Route Science or Internap or the likes have
>commercially?
>
>Just sounds like the sort of thing somebody would have though of, but I've
>ne
Quoting Adi Linden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>
> Is there a way do transparently redirect smtp traffic to a server
> elsewhere on the network using Cisco gear? It would be much easier to
> implement this solution if smtp traffic is transparently sent through the
> dedicated box rather than 'cut
; > using the 0Spam.com anti-spam service. Please click the link below to confirm
> > > > that this is not spam. When you confirm, this message and all future messages
> > > > you send will automatically be accepted.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.0spam.com/verify.cgi?user=1079785893&verify=568107
--
Ray Wong
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Seeing as this didn't appear to hit NANOG yet -
Our dear friends at Verisign won the "Internet Villain" of the year
award at the UK ISPA awards last night "for their presumption that they
own the internet and the domain name system hijacking scandal".
cheers,
Ray B
I couldn't agree more.
Ray
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Randy Bush
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 5:46 AM
To: Coppola, Brian
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: updated root hints file
> From: "C
so probably wouldn't care if you feel the need to blacklist
it explicitly, for that matter.
> Roger Marquis
> Roble Systems Consulting
> http://www.roble.com/
--
Ray Wong
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
the table that will allow me to lookup a name from the
> above code (or better, a hack to whois that will do said lookup for
> me)?
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=R11-LROR+registrar
which finds:
http://www.orgtransition.info/whois/registrar_list
--
Ray Wong
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
link.
Ray Burkholder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.oneunified.net
704 576 5101
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Bill Woodcock
> Sent: November 13, 2003 21:10
> To: Anton L. Kapela
> Cc: Robert White; [EMAIL PROTECTE
fty, if not particularly reliable or wise.
Anyone? Should such a boutique offering be official somewhere or what
would be the reason not to?
--
Ray Wong
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
es to ARIN keep getting rejected, so yes, it looks like an
abandoned block with an old netcom.com address.
I'm starting to figure that, given the delays, there's been enough damage
done that 204.89.224/24 will never be able to get off the blocking lists
anyway, so perhaps I'll turn
www.telcove.com
They are running a DS3 'through' our building, enters one side and exits the
other. They refused to run a spur but are adding a loop for us.
>
> I'd love to know of a telco that does this right without
> having to stand
> over them.
>
Ray Bur
>
> Even if I had an all-Juniper network, I'd still need to
> decide what to do
> about DDOS attacks... Do I just call my circuit vendors and
> keep adding
> OC48s until the problem goes away?
>
But isn't this just trying to put a square peg into a round hole? Wouldn't
it be better to let rou
Title: London, England Connectivity
I'm looking for colo services, point to point E1's, and PSTN connectivity in the London, England area. Would interested parties able to provide these services please get in touch with me off list.
Thanx.
Ray Burkholder
[EMAIL PROTEC
ww.whatever.com.
One way or another, Verisign are going to try and find a way to force their
service on us. As far as I can see some of the worst side effects would be
somewhat mitigated if that wildcard worked for www.*.com.
regards,
Ray
--
Ray Bellis, MA(Oxon) - Technical Director
commu
Has it occurred to anyone else that the side effects of Verisign's
wildcard record might have been very much reduced if the wildcard had
only worked if the address being resolved actually started 'www.' ?
Not that I ever want to see Verisign's abomination resurrected, of
cou
> Does anyone know if this includes ALL of Network
> Solutions or just the Registrar? Does Verisign
> plan to keep the Registry or does it go along
> with the Network Solutions sale?
According to the press release they plan to keep the registry.
Ray
ell that's very simple Rusty - stop screwing around with *our* DNS and
write a plugin for IE to catch NXDOMAIN, just like the Google toolbar
does.
That'll allow 90% of the browsing population a *choice*, something the
wildcard clearly does not.
Ray
--
Ray Bellis, MA(Oxon) - Technica
> Verisign obviously doesn't want the Registrar
> business, or they would have found out a way
> to combine all those accounts when we asked.
You do know they just this morning announced that they're selling the
Registrar business, don't you?
Ray
--
Ray Bellis, MA(Ox
>
> --
> Mark Jeftovic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Co-founder, easyDNS Technologies Inc.
> ph. +1-(416)-535-8672 ext 225
> fx. +1-(416)-535-0237
--
Ray Wong
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
John,
I have forwarded your comments to the appropriate list so that they can
be archived. Please look at the ARIN announcement for details
concerning these documents.
Thanks,
Ray
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of J
nly way to do it is to put another
router between our network and the "BT Central" router that connects their
ATM cloud to us. Of course that doesn't provide any inter-customer
filtering, since that traffic never reaches our network :(
Ray
(*) BT - they have a nearly complete monopoly on the local loop.
;m considering adding privileged port filters for UDP/IP too, although
again it would be optional so that customers who run their own UDP/IP
services can get their responses (i.e. cacheing DNS, IKE, NTP, etc).
Ray
Off list, I'd like to speak with providers in the Charlotte, NC area
capable of providing one or more of the following services:
One or two racks of colo and multi-homed internet connectivity
Wholesale Cable Internet
Wholesale DSL
Point to point T1 lines
PRI Voice lines
Thanx.
Ray.
[
At the least
a spurious lawsuit seems certain.
--
Ray Wong
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
s per
http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/cc/pd/rt/7500/prodlit/1866_pp.htm.
Ray
On Mon, Sep 15, 2003 at 02:33:28PM -0500, Austad, Jay wrote:
> I couldn't find anything that said the 7500 is end-of-life/support/etc...
>
> -jay
>
> > -Original Message-
> >
ify actually
spending some money to fit the newer/larger images? Newer/still current
hardware seems much more a no-brainer, but advocating spending a thousand
bucks to avoid spending 5x that on a more current fire-sale item is a little
less clear, to me.
--
Ray Wong
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> If there's anyone high level at GBLX on list at the
> moment could they please contact me urgently regarding
> a major security incident.
Thanks guys, I have enough contacts at GLBX now :)
Ray
If there's anyone high level at GBLX on list at the moment could they
please contact me urgently regarding a major security incident.
thanks,
Ray
--
Ray Bellis, MA(Oxon) - Technical Director
community internet plc - ts.com Ltd
Windsor House, 12 High Street, Kidlington, Oxford, OX5 2P
so
there's nothing I or most here can do about it. That's not a technical
problem. :-\
--
Ray Wong
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Mon, Sep 08, 2003 at 01:40:01PM -0400, Sean Donelan wrote:
>
> On Mon, 8 Sep 2003, Ray Wong wrote:
> > I seem to be repeating myself a lot: The problem is not technical; hence the
> > solution is not technical either.
> >
> > Now, other than being a poor atte
either.
Now, other than being a poor attempt to pass the buck, how does this help
us as network operators (and similar IT professionals) in fixing the problem?
--
Ray Wong
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
ller. Domino fails too, but at least tends to
parallelize well. It also has a path upwards in the event you choose
your underlying platform poorly.
Whatever it is, you're in for some, umm, interesting times. I still remember
my own experiences quite vividly. :)
--
Ray Wong
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
his will, no doubt, increase support calls. How much compared to a
pervasive work is left as an exercise to the reader.
--
Ray Wong
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Sat, Aug 30, 2003 at 10:28:11AM +0200, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote:
> On zaterdag, aug 30, 2003, at 09:54 Europe/Amsterdam, Ray Wong wrote:
> So? SMTP uses TCP, TCP generates incoming ACKs for outgoing data, so no
> problems there.
Ah, so you're only looking to stop non-TCP atta
ls of them?
Well, who gets to define "heavy?" A cracker might need only 2 or 3 scans
to get the info needed to attack a site. I probably need a few hundred a
day to verify said cracker hasn't succeeded. A script kiddie might run
hundreds, or more, or less.
--
Ray Wong
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
. And if they throw the (power) circuit breakers at work, none of my
computers work (for long) either. That's not a limitation of the grid.
--
Ray Wong
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
DS.
On Fri, Aug 29, 2003 at 11:08:10AM -0500, Austad, Jay wrote:
>
> Does anyone know to go about getting Qwest or a CLEC to patch through a dry
> pair between two buildings connected to the same CO?
>
> When I called to order one, no one knew what I was talking about.
>
> -jay
--
Ray Wong
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
edict poorly thought
out hacks will be answered with other poorly thought out hacks. =)
--
Ray Wong
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
outers fail, etc. Having that last "home" DSL connection may just save
some companies from going totally unreachable at times. That's worth
$79.99/month in many books.
--
Ray Wong
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
it. You'll want your own people to load it
in and out of the car/van, but it'll be cheap and probably less risky than
relying on the odds with a shipper.
--
Ray Wong
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
he moment.
Ray
--
Ray Bellis, MA(Oxon) - Technical Director
community internet plc - ts.com Ltd
Windsor House, 12 High Street, Kidlington, Oxford, OX5 2PJ
tel: +44 1865 856000 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
fax: +44 1865 856001 web: http://www.community.net.uk/
Manhattan...
Ray
t's currently all getting
> done already this way.
The question is of specific versus general cases. Not seeing the drawbacks
because you can cite a place where something is successful does not solve
the problem for everyone else.
In reality, this is not a technical problem, hence there is no way to win.
--
Ray Wong
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Who was it that said, "if you can't identify at least 3 new problems
introduced by any solution, you don't understand the situation?"
--
Ray Wong
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
le seem to think it would be impractical to put the root name
servers in 69.0.0.0/8
Why not persuade ARIN to put whois.arin.net in there instead? It
shouldn't take the people with the broken filters *too* long to figure
out why they can't do IP assignment lookups...
Ray
--
Ray Bellis, M
es noticeable
to the listener.
Ray Burkholder
> -Original Message-
> From: Leo Bicknell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: February 10, 2003 14:44
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: VoIP QOS best practices
>
>
> In a message written on Mon, Feb 10, 2003 at 01:19:0
erful tool. And in some contexts, converts in the realm of IP
Telephony.
Ray Burkholder
> -Original Message-
> From: Jim Cabe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: February 10, 2003 15:31
> To: Ray Burkholder
> Cc: Charles Youse; Bill Woodcock; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sub
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