Re: DC Power choices (was Re: Network visibility)

On 10/22/21 1:13 AM, Jay R. Ashworth wrote: > It was, in fact, pretty impressive to look at. But I was a little worried > about > the loading on the building frame. :-) > > And while I think there might be advantages in running power supplies in gear > at -48, I'd want to rectify it in the cag

Re: Network visibility

Seth Breidbart has the last word on this point, I think: The Internet is "the largest equivalence class in the reflexive, transitive, symmetric closure of the relationship 'can be reached by an IP packet from'." The associated press can bite me. Nice! Miles -- In theory, there is no

Re: Network visibility

> But I will capitalize Internet in all relevant uses. > > This is an *engineering definition*, it matters that you name the right > object, and I am one of the people who will, in fact, die on this hill. You are not alone. > The associated press can bite me. While I respect and appreciate the

Re: Network visibility

- Original Message - > From: "Miles Fidelman" > Guys, > > You guys were in grade school, some of us were there at the beginning > (well, in my case, 2 years after the beginning).  I can assure you that > folks made a big deal about what was and wasn't the Internet, and the > distinction

DC Power choices (was Re: Network visibility)

on of Glencoe, ASCE" > To: "Mark Tinka" > Cc: "NANOG Operators' Group" > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2021 4:50:10 PM > Subject: Re: Network visibility > Outside the datacenter is where DC power really shines in my opinion. Inside > the DC, everythi

Re: Network visibility

On 10/21/21 22:50, Lady Benjamin Cannon of Glencoe, ASCE wrote: Outside the datacenter is where DC power really shines in my opinion. Inside the DC, everything is AC now and probably for the best. We never came up with a modular standard for -48VDC. Perhaps that could have changed things.

Re: Network visibility

> On Oct 21, 2021, at 13:50 , Lady Benjamin Cannon of Glencoe, ASCE > wrote: > > Outside the datacenter is where DC power really shines in my opinion. Inside > the DC, everything is AC now and probably for the best. > > We never came up with a modular standard for -48VDC. Perhaps that coul

RE: Network visibility

On October 21, 2021 at 16:13 bka...@ford.com (Kain, Becki (.)) wrote: > I'm just kidding. I wasn't on until 1990 when I was teaching IBM 370 > assembler I taught IBM 370 ASM for several years at BU, I can probably still explain what a CSECT is, never know when it might come up like right now

RE: Network visibility

On October 21, 2021 at 16:04 bka...@ford.com (Kain, Becki (.)) wrote: > How old are all you people? My first experience with the ARPAnet was either 1977 or 1978 when someone got me an ITS account at MIT (BARRYS@AI), I was working at Harvard. Tho I didn't really have much use for the net other

Re: Network visibility

Just to throw in another curve ball what got many of us excited about the internet or Internet was that at the time there were several networking protocols in wide usage like SNA (IBM), DECNET (DEC), XNS (Xerox, ok not such wide usage), BITNET (mostly IBM systems, organization was volunteer, publ

Re: Network visibility

Outside the datacenter is where DC power really shines in my opinion. Inside the DC, everything is AC now and probably for the best. We never came up with a modular standard for -48VDC. Perhaps that could have changed things. But it sure is nice having 72hrs of battery run time in the field/ed

Re: Network visibility

Miles, Silly schmilly. These are important matters of great import, and thus it’s important someone has the final say. And since you agree with me, I’m happy for that to be you :) -mel On Oct 21, 2021, at 11:16 AM, Miles Fidelman mailto:mfidel...@meetinghouse.net>> wrote: Guys, You guys we

Re: Network visibility

Guys, You guys were in grade school, some of us were there at the beginning (well, in my case, 2 years after the beginning).  I can assure you that folks made a big deal about what was and wasn't the Internet, and the distinction between "an internet" and "the (capital I) Internet."  Opinions

Re: Network visibility

e backbone). Miles Fidelman Kain, Becki (.) wrote: How old are all you people? 😊 (JK) -Original Message- From: NANOG On Behalf Of Owen DeLong via NANOG Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2021 11:43 AM To: b...@theworld.com Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Network visibility WARNING: Th

Re: Network visibility

r 21, 2021 12:12 PM > To: Kain, Becki (.) > Cc: Owen DeLong ; b...@theworld.com; nanog > Subject: Re: Network visibility > > Becki, > > I was on ARPANET through the USDA in the 1980s. So, not that old :) > > -mel > > >> On Oct 21, 2021, at 9:04 AM, Kai

Re: Network visibility

> On Oct 21, 2021, at 08:55 , Mel Beckman wrote: > > >> On Oct 21, 2021, at 8:19 AM, Owen DeLong > > wrote: >> >> No, but you are ignoring the point of my message… >> >> The TCP/IP internet existed _BEFORE_ the flag day you mentioned. The flag >> day was the end of N

RE: Network visibility

I'm just kidding. I wasn't on until 1990 when I was teaching IBM 370 assembler -Original Message- From: Mel Beckman Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2021 12:12 PM To: Kain, Becki (.) Cc: Owen DeLong ; b...@theworld.com; nanog Subject: Re: Network visibility Becki, I was

Re: Network visibility

t; DeLong via NANOG > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2021 11:43 AM > To: b...@theworld.com > Cc: nanog@nanog.org > Subject: Re: Network visibility > > WARNING: This message originated outside of Ford Motor Company. Use caution > when opening attachments, clicking links, or respondin

RE: Network visibility

How old are all you people? 😊 (JK) -Original Message- From: NANOG On Behalf Of Owen DeLong via NANOG Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2021 11:43 AM To: b...@theworld.com Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Network visibility WARNING: This message originated outside of Ford Motor Company

Re: Network visibility

On Oct 21, 2021, at 8:19 AM, Owen DeLong mailto:o...@delong.com>> wrote: No, but you are ignoring the point of my message… The TCP/IP internet existed _BEFORE_ the flag day you mentioned. The flag day was the end of NCP, not the beginning of TCP/IP. IIRC, at the time, Owen, But we’re not tal

Re: Network visibility

> On Oct 20, 2021, at 14:19 , b...@theworld.com wrote: > > > On October 20, 2021 at 16:08 m...@beckman.org (Mel Beckman) wrote: >> Mark, >> >> Before 1983, the ARPANET wasn’t an internet, let alone The Internet. Each >> ARPANET connection required a host-specific interface (the “IMP”) and sim

Re: Network visibility

> On Oct 20, 2021, at 13:09 , Michael Thomas wrote: > > > > On 10/20/21 12:38 PM, james.cut...@consultant.com > wrote: >> I miss DECUS, but not DELNIs. I miss DECUS, too. Not only do I not miss DELNIs, I don’t miss any of the trappings of coaxial-base

Re: Network visibility

> On Oct 20, 2021, at 11:31 , Miles Fidelman wrote: > > Jay Hennigan wrote: >> On 10/20/21 10:30, Mel Beckman wrote: >>> Owen, >>> >>> LOL! Yeah, and in 1838 Samuel Morse’s telegraph system used electric >>> impulses to transmit encoded messages over a wire to Speedwell Iron Works >>> in Mo

Re: Network visibility

On 10/21/21 14:54, Brian Johnson wrote: There is still zoning on some platforms, but there are now redundancies for the zones. Sounds complex. But to each their own. Mark.

Re: Network visibility

There is still zoning on some platforms, but there are now redundancies for the zones. > On Oct 21, 2021, at 12:22 AM, Mark Tinka wrote: > > > > On 10/21/21 03:19, Brian Johnson wrote: > >> +1 on -48VDC. > > Wasn't much fun when half the router would shutdown because power supplies > faile

Re: Network visibility

On 10/21/21 03:19, Brian Johnson wrote: +1 on -48VDC. Wasn't much fun when half the router would shutdown because power supplies failed, due to what was known as "power zoning" those days. I haven't deployed a larger router on DC in over 13 years. I'm not sure if this is still a thing,

Re: Network visibility

On 10/20/21 20:37, Lady Benjamin Cannon of Glencoe, ASCE wrote: -48VDC power is still the best. I really envy folk that love DC for networking gear :-). Work in 2007 was an all-DC network. I rebuilt it into AC, considering the ISP also owned the data centre (most of whose customers bought

Re: Network visibility

+1 on -48VDC. > On Oct 20, 2021, at 1:38 PM, Lady Benjamin Cannon of Glencoe, ASCE > wrote: > >> On Oct 20, 2021, at 8:04 AM, Mark Tinka > > wrote: >> >> >> At any rate, you may very well need more than one system to monitor your >> entire network. >> >> Mark. > >

Re: Network visibility

On 10/20/21 6:52 PM, Kain, Becki (.) wrote: Oh and I remember the day we first got mosaic and I thought “why would I need pictures on the internet?” - When Mosaic first got I remember thinking what the heck do I do

Re: Network visibility

> On Oct 20, 2021, at 4:59 PM, Mel Beckman wrote: > > For several years we had UCSB’s IMP control panel hanging in our office as a > wall decoration (it belonged to Larry Green, one of the UCSB IMPlementors). I > still have the manuals. The actual IMP with 56Kbps modem was in a huge rack > w

Re: Network visibility

For several years we had UCSB’s IMP control panel hanging in our office as a wall decoration (it belonged to Larry Green, one of the UCSB IMPlementors). I still have the manuals. The actual IMP with 56Kbps modem was in a huge rack with lifting eyes for a fork lift, and weighed about 500 lbs. Eve

Re: Network visibility

On October 20, 2021 at 13:09 m...@mtcc.com (Michael Thomas) wrote: > Yeah, I miss DECUS too. I remember one plenary when somebody asked when the > VAX > would support the full 4G address space to laughs and guffaws from panel. We had an 8MB Vax 11/780 at Harvard Chemistry ca 1982 (VMS) which

Re: Network visibility

On October 20, 2021 at 16:08 m...@beckman.org (Mel Beckman) wrote: > Mark, > > Before 1983, the ARPANET wasn’t an internet, let alone The Internet. Each > ARPANET connection required a host-specific interface (the “IMP”) and simplex > Network Control Protocol (NCP). NCP used users' email ad

Re: Network visibility

On 10/20/21 19:32, Mel Beckman wrote: such tinkaing... Cute... is rare. It certainly doesn’t rise to the level of “never works out of the box.” Luck you. Mark.

Re: Network visibility

On 10/20/21 12:38 PM, james.cut...@consultant.com wrote: I don’t remember hearing about IP for VAX/VMS 2.4, but I was part of a group at Intel in 1981 looking at ARPAnet for moving designer tools and design files as an alternate to leased bandwidth from $TELCOs using DECnet and BiSync HASP. Th

Re: Network visibility

On 10/20/21 11:52, Kain, Becki (.) wrote: Oh and I remember the day we first got mosaic and I thought “why would I need pictures on the internet?” Couple that with the early search engines such as Lycos and WebCrawler and there's a story to tell. I was a volunteer at a local non-profit fledg

Re: Network visibility

I don’t remember hearing about IP for VAX/VMS 2.4, but I was part of a group at Intel in 1981 looking at ARPAnet for moving designer tools and design files as an alternate to leased bandwidth from $TELCOs using DECnet and BiSync HASP. The costs of switching from 56 Kbps to ARPAnet’s 50 Kbps conv

Re: Network visibility

I think the issuing of rfc 791 was much more important than the flag day. ARPAnet was a tiny, tiny universe but there were a lot of people interested in networking at the time wondering what to do with our neat new DEUNA and DEQNA adapters. There was tons of interest in all of the various proto

RE: Network visibility

Oh and I remember the day we first got mosaic and I thought “why would I need pictures on the internet?” 😊 From: NANOG On Behalf Of Miles Fidelman Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 2:47 PM Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Network visibility WARNING: This message originated outside of Ford

Re: Network visibility

Since we seem to be getting pedantic... There's "The (capital I) Internet" - which, most date to the flag day, and the "Public Internet" (the Internet after policies changed and allowed commercial & public use over the NSFnet backbone - in 1992f, as I recall). Then there's the more general n

Re: Network visibility

> On Oct 20, 2021, at 8:04 AM, Mark Tinka > wrote: > > > At any rate, you may very well need more than one system to monitor your > entire network. > > Mark. Not the least of reasons for this: Redundancy. We have more than 1 tool doing every job, incase there’s a b

Re: Network visibility

Jay Hennigan wrote: On 10/20/21 10:30, Mel Beckman wrote: Owen, LOL! Yeah, and in 1838 Samuel Morse’s telegraph system used electric impulses to transmit encoded messages over a wire to Speedwell Iron Works in Morristown, New Jersey. Was/ that /the Internet? Nope. And it wasn't even the fir

Re: Network visibility

Michael, “Looking into” isn’t “is” :) -mel On Oct 20, 2021, at 10:39 AM, Michael Thomas wrote:  On 10/20/21 8:26 AM, Mel Beckman wrote: Mark, As long as we’re being pedantic, January 1, 1983 is considered the official birthday of the Internet, when TCP/IP first let different kinds of com

Re: Network visibility

On 10/20/21 10:30, Mel Beckman wrote: Owen, LOL! Yeah, and in 1838 Samuel Morse’s telegraph system used electric impulses to transmit encoded messages over a wire to Speedwell Iron Works in Morristown, New Jersey. Was/ that /the Internet? Nope. And it wasn't even the first digital encoding o

Re: Network visibility

On 10/20/21 8:26 AM, Mel Beckman wrote: Mark, As long as we’re being pedantic, January 1, 1983 is considered the official birthday of the Internet, when TCP/IP first let different kinds of computers on different networks talk to each other. It’s 2021, hence the Internet is /less/ than, not

Re: Network visibility

Mark, I haven’t. With SNMP and other standards, and most NMS’ having extensible interfaces, such tinkaing is rare. It certainly doesn’t rise to the level of “never works out of the box.” -mel > On Oct 20, 2021, at 10:06 AM, Mark Tinka wrote: > > > > On 10/20/21 18:38, Mel Beckman wrote:

Re: Network visibility

Owen, LOL! Yeah, and in 1838 Samuel Morse’s telegraph system used electric impulses to transmit encoded messages over a wire to Speedwell Iron Works in Morristown, New Jersey. Was that the Internet? Sorry, not buying your supposed argument. People experimenting with TCP/IP doesn’t an Internet

Re: Network visibility

On 10/20/21 18:38, Mel Beckman wrote: I’ve used many commercial NMS platforms. I’ve yet to find one that doesn’t work “out of the box”. Unless by “out of the box” you mean “clairvoyantly configured”. Please identify the ones you think fail your test. Have you always used an NMS that you'v

Re: Network visibility

> On Oct 20, 2021, at 08:26 , Mel Beckman wrote: > > Mark, > > As long as we’re being pedantic, January 1, 1983 is considered the official > birthday of the Internet, when TCP/IP first let different kinds of computers > on different networks talk to each other. January 1, 1983 is actually

Re: Network visibility

I’ve used many commercial NMS platforms. I’ve yet to find one that doesn’t work “out of the box”. Unless by “out of the box” you mean “clairvoyantly configured”. Please identify the ones you think fail your test. -mel via cell > On Oct 20, 2021, at 9:18 AM, Mark Tinka wrote: > >  > >> On

Re: Network visibility

On 10/20/21 18:08, Mel Beckman wrote: Mark, Before 1983, the ARPANET wasn’t an internet, let alone The Internet. Each ARPANET connection required a host-specific interface (the “IMP”) and simplex Network Control Protocol (NCP). NCP used users' email addresses, and routing had to be specif

Re: Network visibility

Mark, Before 1983, the ARPANET wasn’t an internet, let alone The Internet. Each ARPANET connection required a host-specific interface (the “IMP”) and simplex Network Control Protocol (NCP). NCP used users' email addresses, and routing had to be specified in advance within each NCP message. Eve

Re: Network visibility

On 10/20/21 17:26, Mel Beckman wrote: Mark, As long as we’re being pedantic, January 1, 1983 is considered the official birthday of the Internet, when TCP/IP first let different kinds of computers on different networks talk to each other. It’s 2021, hence the Internet is /less/ than, not

Re: Network visibility

Mark, As long as we’re being pedantic, January 1, 1983 is considered the official birthday of the Internet, when TCP/IP first let different kinds of computers on different networks talk to each other. It’s 2021, hence the Internet is less than, not more than, 40 years old. Given your mathemat

Re: Network visibility

On 10/20/21 11:55, Nat Fogarty wrote: Hi there, I'm interested in what you good folks do in terms of network visibility. My interests are around Service Provider space - visibility for IPoE, PPPoE, TCP(User Experience). I use a product called "VoIPmonitor" for all things VoIP - and it is