RE: DigiNotar compromise

2011-09-06 Thread Tobie Fysh
The part I find interesting is the Dutch Government asking Microsoft to not push out the Windows Update to protect customers in the Netherlands as the Dutch government uses DigiNotar to "secure" most of their infrastructure. http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2607712 "Known issues ... At the expli

RE: Q for the Cisco gurus (Aironet setup issue)

2011-09-06 Thread Mark Kelsay
Glad it worked for you. I have said this for years, Cisco needs to create a better GUI design team and undertake much more browser testing. I have had issues like yours before and it is a time waster and very frustrating. Regards, Mark Kelsay From: Micheal Espinola Jr [mailto:michealespin...

Re: Checking shortcut properties

2011-09-06 Thread Micheal Espinola Jr
OMG, you have to support SX3 too? Ugh... -- Espi On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 8:04 AM, James Rankin wrote: > Does anyone know of any way I could check for a comment in a shortcut > (*.lnk) file, either from a command prompt or through some sort of script? I > have some shortcuts I want to remove

RE: Email Problem

2011-09-06 Thread Ken Schaefer
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=and+knowing+is+half+the+battle -Original Message- From: John Aldrich [mailto:jaldr...@blueridgecarpet.com] Sent: Wednesday, 7 September 2011 5:04 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Email Problem Both. I didn't have a TV growing up... :D I recognized it from a

Re: DigiNotar compromise

2011-09-06 Thread Andrew S. Baker
Why would he name them if he had yet to be detected? Could be just the sort of thing to instill some panic. Imagine the whole CA system deemed untrustworthy overnight. * * *ASB* *http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker* *Harnessing the Advantages of Technology for the SMB market… * On Tue, Sep 6, 201

Re: DigiNotar compromise

2011-09-06 Thread Kurt Buff
Ask not for whom the bell tolls... On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 20:10, Rene de Haas wrote: > *"UPDATE Tues Sept 6, 14:30 GMT* : The alleged attacker of DigiNotar has > posted an update on PasteBin. He claims that he has access to four other > Certificate Authorities, and he names two of them: StartCom

Re: # of files on Windows server, is 4 million too many?

2011-09-06 Thread Rene de Haas
In that case you might try NTFSDisableLastAccessUpdate. http://www.hkeyusers.com/hyper-v-best-practices-ntfsdisablelastaccessupdate/ According to this it's already disabled in Vista and Windows server 2008 http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc959914.aspx "Determines whether NTFS updates

Re: RE: # of files on Windows server

2011-09-06 Thread Rene de Haas
Sorry, that should be NTFSDisableLastAccessUpdate. Also was a bit short typed on my phone., so here's the longer version. http://www.hkeyusers.com/hyper-v-best-practices-ntfsdisablelastaccessupdate/ According to this it's disabled in Vista and Windows server 2008 http://technet.microsoft.com/en-

Re: RE: # of files on Windows server

2011-09-06 Thread Rene de Haas
Maybe the registry entry DisableLastAccessUpdate improves that. Op 6 sep. 2011 17:57 schreef "Michael B. Smith" het volgende: > Consider this: NTFS is a type of database. And not a very efficient one either. And, for very small files, the files are actually stored within the file system, while wit

RE: # of files on Windows server, is 4 million too many?

2011-09-06 Thread Kennedy, Jim
Going along the same lines, when do you start to worry about the number of concurrent client connections to said SAN attached to a 2008 R2 server, simple document connections From: Michael B. Smith [mich...@smithcons.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 06,

RE: Powershell help

2011-09-06 Thread Joseph L. Casale
Thanks Michael! Wish ms had a publicly available bug searching tool, life would be so much easier... jlc -Original Message- From: Michael B. Smith [mailto:mich...@smithcons.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 6:59 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Powershell help It is indee

Re: Wireless design question

2011-09-06 Thread Kurt Buff
Interesting. My Cisco 1240AG devices certainly aren't - but they are more than 4 years old now, though they do support more than one SSID and VLAN. They just don't route, that I've been able to detect. I'm starting to build the case to replace them with newer units that support BGN (and perhaps A

Re: DigiNotar compromise

2011-09-06 Thread Jon Harris
I wonder what happens when the hackers go after telephone/ISP's once Cell phones are used like credit cards. http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/148/pocket-change.html Jon On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 6:36 PM, Jon Harris wrote: > Ah but maybe the lawsuits are about to start. Even the Dutch governme

Re: Email Problem

2011-09-06 Thread Micheal Espinola Jr
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqRxWAqnQ_g -- Espi On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 3:22 PM, Maglinger, Paul wrote: > ** > By your powers combined > > -- > *From:* Micheal Espinola Jr [mailto:michealespin...@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 06, 2011 3:39 PM > >

Re: Wireless design question

2011-09-06 Thread Micheal Espinola Jr
What he said :-) -- Espi On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 3:12 PM, Michael B. Smith wrote: > I wouldn't say that ALL AP's are l3 devices. But many are. > > Regards, > > Michael B. Smith > Consultant and Exchange MVP > http://TheEssentialExchange.com > > > -Original Message- > From: Kurt Buff [

Re: other Windows mailing lists

2011-09-06 Thread G.Waleed Kavalec
WARN: *THERE IS ANOTHER SYSTEM* ? On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 8:50 PM, Phil FromWork wrote: > Hello, > > What other windows (server mainly) mailing lists do you guys subscribe too? > > Just curious. > > ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ > ~

Re: DigiNotar compromise

2011-09-06 Thread Jon Harris
Ah but maybe the lawsuits are about to start. Even the Dutch government is now pulling the plug on their Certs. Since DigiNotar has been closed mouthed about the extent of the hack and even may have mislead people as to not only the extent of the hack but the probable start date for the initial h

RE: Email Problem

2011-09-06 Thread Maglinger, Paul
By your powers combined From: Micheal Espinola Jr [mailto:michealespin...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 3:39 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: Email Problem Shazam! -- Espi On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 11:31 AM, Joseph Heaton wrote

RE: Wireless design question

2011-09-06 Thread Michael B. Smith
I wouldn't say that ALL AP's are l3 devices. But many are. Regards, Michael B. Smith Consultant and Exchange MVP http://TheEssentialExchange.com -Original Message- From: Kurt Buff [mailto:kurt.b...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 5:48 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject:

RE: # of files on Windows server, is 4 million too many?

2011-09-06 Thread Michael B. Smith
No, it matters in file open and file extension as well - but not to as great a degree. 2008 R2 doesn't improve this to any degree EXCEPT that the Server service no longer has any limit to the amount of directory cache that it can allocate. This means that LOCAL enumeration (after the first) wil

Re: Wireless design question

2011-09-06 Thread Kurt Buff
I agree with the import of your advice on subnetting, but I haven't seen that APs are typically layer 3 devices. Are you seeing an increase in that, or did you mean something else by "your APs are routing points"? Kurt On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 13:46, Micheal Espinola Jr wrote: > As the need for a

Re: Email Problem

2011-09-06 Thread Jonathan Link
Unga bunga. On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 5:07 PM, Don Ely wrote: > So different day and the same result, yes? > > On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 2:04 PM, John Aldrich > wrote: > >> Both. I didn't have a TV growing up... :D I recognized it from a TV show, >> but couldn't recall which one. I took a stab in the

Re: DigiNotar compromise

2011-09-06 Thread Andrew S. Baker
Hi Tim, Perhaps you should say, "former CA" They'll be dead before the paint dries on this investigation. BTW, this is one reason why I never buy it that any particular vendor is likely to be secure or robust or whatever because of the line of business they're in. Just because they're a bank, h

Re: Email Problem

2011-09-06 Thread Don Ely
So different day and the same result, yes? On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 2:04 PM, John Aldrich wrote: > Both. I didn't have a TV growing up... :D I recognized it from a TV show, > but couldn't recall which one. I took a stab in the dark. Guess I missed > the > mark. :D > > > > -Original Message-

RE: Email Problem

2011-09-06 Thread John Aldrich
Both. I didn't have a TV growing up... :D I recognized it from a TV show, but couldn't recall which one. I took a stab in the dark. Guess I missed the mark. :D -Original Message- From: Joseph Heaton [mailto:jhea...@dfg.ca.gov] Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 2:32 PM To: NT System Admi

Re: Wireless design question

2011-09-06 Thread Micheal Espinola Jr
As the need for available IPs only continues to grow, and your APs are routing points, I would give each wireless network its own subnet. You can still have a single DHCP server handling the requests and doling out the appropriate IP information. I've seen too many orgs in the past 1-2 years caus

Re: Email Problem

2011-09-06 Thread Micheal Espinola Jr
Shazam! -- Espi On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 11:31 AM, Joseph Heaton wrote: > wow... That line is from GI Joe, not Captain Planet. > > Are we really that old, or are you that young? > > >>> John Aldrich 9/6/2011 8:46 AM >>> > Who do you think you are??? Captain Planet? :D > > > > > -Origina

Re: DigiNotar compromise

2011-09-06 Thread Kurt Buff
On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 13:01, Tim Evans wrote: > If this is true, I find this absolutely unacceptable that a commercial CA > would run a system like this. Incredible > > > > http://computer-forensics.sans.org/blog/2011/09/06/diginotar-incident-response-report-no-logging-weak-password-no-protected-

Re: # of files on Windows server, is 4 million too many?

2011-09-06 Thread Kurt Buff
I've got a virtualized Win2k3 R2 fully patched server on ESX 3.5 - the OS partition is on the ESX box. The data drives are spread across 4 SAN LUNs, (3 Lefthand units with two-way replication and I'm running out of space) holding , 6,265,927 files at 3,493,033,902,080 bytes. I haven't stopped to

Re: # of files on Windows server, is 4 million too many?

2011-09-06 Thread Jonathan Link
So, what's the SAN out of curiosity? On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 2:53 PM, David Lum wrote: > Would there be any worthwhile gains to attach this SAN drive to a 2008 R2 > server vs. 2003 32-bit? Enumeration is about the only time raw number of > files matter, right? > > ** ** > > Feeling like a n

RE: # of files on Windows server, is 4 million too many?

2011-09-06 Thread David Lum
Would there be any worthwhile gains to attach this SAN drive to a 2008 R2 server vs. 2003 32-bit? Enumeration is about the only time raw number of files matter, right? Feeling like a n00b asking that one. Dave From: Michael B. Smith [mailto:mich...@smithcons.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2

RE: Email Problem

2011-09-06 Thread Joseph Heaton
wow... That line is from GI Joe, not Captain Planet. Are we really that old, or are you that young? >>> John Aldrich 9/6/2011 8:46 AM >>> Who do you think you are??? Captain Planet? :D -Original Message- From: Bill Humphries [mailto:nt...@hedgedigger.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 0

Re: Email Problem

2011-09-06 Thread Jonathan Link
It's a defining characteristic. I don't need to be reminded of that. :-) On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 2:15 PM, William Robbins wrote: > You suck, have I mentioned that today? :) > > - WJR > > > > On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 13:06, Jonathan Link wrote: > >> You forgot :"Do the needful." >> >> *runs away*

RE: # of files on Windows server, is 4 million too many?

2011-09-06 Thread Michael B. Smith
I have a customer with a 2003 server that has a couple million files in a single folder. I didn't say it didn't work. I said it wasn't performant. And I stand by that. :) Regards, Michael B. Smith Consultant and Exchange MVP http://TheEssentialExchange.com From: Cameron [mailto:cameron.orl...@

Re: Email Problem

2011-09-06 Thread William Robbins
You suck, have I mentioned that today? :) - WJR On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 13:06, Jonathan Link wrote: > You forgot :"Do the needful." > > *runs away* > > On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 2:02 PM, William Robbins wrote: > >> I saw your message, just haven't had the time to reply...until now. >> >> Just qu

Re: # of files on Windows server, is 4 million too many?

2011-09-06 Thread Cameron
Damn...then I'm in trouble! One Win 2K server currently has 7,981,328 files at 60GB On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 1:38 PM, David Lum wrote: > 2003 Server, 32-bit > > ** ** > > *From:* Andrew S. Baker [mailto:asbz...@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 06, 2011 10:32 AM > > *To:* NT System Admi

Re: Email Problem

2011-09-06 Thread Jonathan Link
You forgot :"Do the needful." *runs away* On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 2:02 PM, William Robbins wrote: > I saw your message, just haven't had the time to reply...until now. > > Just quickly: I don't care about specific email addy's, but quantity of > recipients can play a part is all I meant. As far

Re: Email Problem

2011-09-06 Thread William Robbins
I saw your message, just haven't had the time to reply...until now. Just quickly: I don't care about specific email addy's, but quantity of recipients can play a part is all I meant. As far as any of my queries go hey are only to highlight the thought process you should be on in basic troublesho

RE: # of files on Windows server, is 4 million too many?

2011-09-06 Thread David Lum
2003 Server, 32-bit From: Andrew S. Baker [mailto:asbz...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 10:32 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: # of files on Windows server, is 4 million too many? What OS, btw? ASB http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker Harnessing the Advantages of Technology for

RE: # of files on Windows server, is 4 million too many?

2011-09-06 Thread Guyer, Don
I ran into a similar issue years ago on a NAS storage device. We were housing scanned optical images and the import software natively put 1,024 files into 1,024 folders - into another 1,024 folders, blah, blah, blah.. Until the device was so bogged down, it killed performance considerably,

Re: # of files on Windows server, is 4 million too many?

2011-09-06 Thread Andrew S. Baker
What OS, btw? * * *ASB* *http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker* *Harnessing the Advantages of Technology for the SMB market… * On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 1:15 PM, David Lum wrote: > Here’s the results from a single logical (SAN) drive on one of our file > servers: > Total Files Listed: > >

RE: # of files on Windows server, is 4 million too many?

2011-09-06 Thread David Lum
Here's the results from a single logical (SAN) drive on one of our file servers: Total Files Listed: 4661023 File(s) 681,427,607,680 bytes On this logical drive are our primary shares for users and shared data, but if no single folder has more than 2000 files does it matter? I'm t

Re: Q for the Cisco gurus (Aironet setup issue)

2011-09-06 Thread Micheal Espinola Jr
Absolutely redicculous. IE8/9 dont work properly. FF5 does. No indications of script or other browser errors at all. Thank you very much, Mark! -- Espi On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 9:33 AM, Micheal Espinola Jr < michealespin...@gmail.com> wrote: > IE9. I'm going to downgrade to 8. > > Thank

Re: Q for the Cisco gurus (Aironet setup issue)

2011-09-06 Thread Micheal Espinola Jr
IE9. I'm going to downgrade to 8. Thank you for this tidbit - I really hope that's all that it is. -- Espi On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 2:20 AM, Mark Kelsay wrote: > What browser are you using to do the config? I have seen this issue when > using Firefox. Try IE and you should be able to save

Re: Email Problem

2011-09-06 Thread Jonathan Link
Oy! On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 11:46 AM, John Aldrich wrote: > Who do you think you are??? Captain Planet? :D > > > > > -Original Message- > From: Bill Humphries [mailto:nt...@hedgedigger.com] > Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 11:34 AM > To: NT System Admin Issues > Subject: Re: Email Probl

RE: When DNS for your ISP goes down...

2011-09-06 Thread Steven M. Caesare
Well, by default its connectionless and therefore unreliable anyway[1] -sc [1] Yes, I know about TCP uses of DNS From: Jonathan Link [mailto:jonathan.l...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 3:46 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: When DNS for your ISP goes down...

Re: Networking Q

2011-09-06 Thread Ben Scott
On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 9:47 AM, David Lum wrote: > What is the functional difference between two switch interfaces on different > VLAN’s vs. these same two switch ports on the same VLAN but both in isolated > mode? One is a kludge, the other is a proper network design? -- Ben ~ Finally, pow

RE: # of files on Windows server

2011-09-06 Thread Michael B. Smith
Consider this: NTFS is a type of database. And not a very efficient one either. And, for very small files, the files are actually stored within the file system, while with larger files, NTFS has pointers to the actual file data stored in the FS. Storage size has exploded in the last 10 years. H

RE: # of files on Windows server

2011-09-06 Thread Ken Schaefer
Depends on usage. NTFS MFT is a hierarchical database, but which stores small files "inline" inside the database, and larger files as pointers to the actual location on disk. Then there is a completely separate issue of a client browsing to a shared folder (using Explorer) and expecting an enum

RE: Email Problem

2011-09-06 Thread John Aldrich
Who do you think you are??? Captain Planet? :D -Original Message- From: Bill Humphries [mailto:nt...@hedgedigger.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 11:34 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: Email Problem and knowing is half the battle. John Aldrich wrote: > Well, I think i

Re: Email Problem

2011-09-06 Thread Bill Humphries
and knowing is half the battle. John Aldrich wrote: Well, I think it may have been an HTML issue... :D I should know better than to use HTML email anyway. :D -Original Message- From: Matthew B Ames [mailto:matthew.a...@qinetiq.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 11:17 AM To: NT

RE: Email Problem

2011-09-06 Thread John Aldrich
Well, I think it may have been an HTML issue... :D I should know better than to use HTML email anyway. :D -Original Message- From: Matthew B Ames [mailto:matthew.a...@qinetiq.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 11:17 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Email Problem I have s

RE: Email Problem

2011-09-06 Thread Matthew B Ames
I have seen that feature in Outlook 2003 before, when the emails where HTML formatted. Normally when that happened my calendar entries would appear on the calendar but be blank. Opening the email to read and it appeared blank, but hit forward or reply and the contents would appear (or at least

RE: Email Problem

2011-09-06 Thread John Aldrich
I think I may have resolved the strangeness...I just sent a test reply and was able to see the body. Thanks! -Original Message- From: John Aldrich [mailto:jaldr...@blueridgecarpet.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 11:08 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Email Problem Not

Re: Email Problem

2011-09-06 Thread John Aldrich
On Tue September 6 2011, you wrote: > I read 'em. Stay off the mushrooms. > > On 6 September 2011 15:54, John Aldrich wrote: > > I replied from home this weekend, but when I got here, and looked at > > the messages I sent out, the bodies were blank. Does anyone else see > > that, or am > > I hall

RE: Email Problem

2011-09-06 Thread John Aldrich
Nothin' but a little alcohol. :D I'm using a linux-based email client at home and Outlook 2007 at work. I'm pretty sure there were some recent updates to my email client at home and I suspect that might have affected the way Outlook is seeing the messages. From: Steve Ens [mailto:stevey...@gmail

RE: Email Problem

2011-09-06 Thread John Aldrich
Yep. That's exactly the case. OL2k7 at work and KMail at home. I think there were some recent updates to KMail, and those updates might have an impact on the compatibility between Outlook 2007 and Kmail. *sigh* Gotta love when open-source stuff breaks the closed-source stuff. :D -Original Me

RE: Email Problem

2011-09-06 Thread Matthew B Ames
I can see the body of the messages you sent from home. I assume you use Outlook 2007 at work, and KMail at home. I am reading your messages at work using Outlook 2010. -Original Message- From: John Aldrich [mailto:jaldr...@blueridgecarpet.com] Sent: 06 September 2011 15:54 To: NT Syste

RE: Email Problem

2011-09-06 Thread John Aldrich
Hmm... interesting. Ok. Thanks! From: James Rankin [mailto:kz2...@googlemail.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 10:59 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: Email Problem I read 'em. Stay off the mushrooms. On 6 September 2011 15:54, John Aldrich wrote: I replied from home this weeken

Re: Email Problem

2011-09-06 Thread Steve Ens
Did you take any medication over the weekend? On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 9:54 AM, John Aldrich wrote: > I replied from home this weekend, but when I got here, and looked at the > messages I sent out, the bodies were blank. Does anyone else see that, or > am > I hallucinating? > > > > From: William Ro

Re: Email Problem

2011-09-06 Thread James Rankin
I read 'em. Stay off the mushrooms. On 6 September 2011 15:54, John Aldrich wrote: > I replied from home this weekend, but when I got here, and looked at the > messages I sent out, the bodies were blank. Does anyone else see that, or > am > I hallucinating? > > > > From: William Robbins [mailto:d

RE: Email Problem

2011-09-06 Thread John Aldrich
I replied from home this weekend, but when I got here, and looked at the messages I sent out, the bodies were blank. Does anyone else see that, or am I hallucinating? From: William Robbins [mailto:dangerw...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 12:26 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject

Re: Checking shortcut properties

2011-09-06 Thread James Rankin
Wooosh! Blast from the past there, but I'd imagine it would do the job :-) On 6 September 2011 13:51, Ken Schaefer wrote: > Edit.com should also work > > ** ** > > *From:* James Rankin [mailto:kz2...@googlemail.com] > *Sent:* Tuesday, 6 September 2011 6:30 PM > > *To:* NT System Admin Issu

RE: Powershell help

2011-09-06 Thread Michael B. Smith
It is indeed an error, and has been bugged. The work around: $saveEAP = $ErrorActionPreference $ErrorActionPreference = 'SilentlyContinue' Get-ADOrganizationalUnit ... $cmdResult = $? $ErrorActionPreference = $saveEAP ## now test $cmdResult as y

RE: Checking shortcut properties

2011-09-06 Thread Ken Schaefer
Edit.com should also work From: James Rankin [mailto:kz2...@googlemail.com] Sent: Tuesday, 6 September 2011 6:30 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: Checking shortcut properties Little follow-up to this, if anyone's interestedyou can also pull the comments out of the shortcut file usi

RE: Cert issuein RDS - Resolved

2011-09-06 Thread David Lum
The answer: https://search.thawte.com/support/ssl-digital-certificates/index?page=content&actp=CROSSLINK&id=AR1374 Dave From: Mark Kelsay [mailto:mark.kel...@confused.com] Sent: Monday, September 05, 2011 11:17 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Cert issuein RDS Give them a ring. We had

RE: Powershell help

2011-09-06 Thread Joseph L. Casale
Probably more to do with my inexperience; Get-Content acts like the parameters suggest for -ea 0|3. Get-ADOrganizationalUnit bails out in a display of glorious red no matter how you attempt to deal with it if the OU doesn't exist. jlc -Original Message- From: Michael B. Smith [mailto:mic

Re: Checking shortcut properties

2011-09-06 Thread James Rankin
Little follow-up to this, if anyone's interestedyou can also pull the comments out of the shortcut file using the SysInternals tool *strings*, but it's a lot blunter than the VB method suggested. Cheers, On 5 September 2011 10:16, James Rankin wrote: > Thanks Tim. That Description line retu