Re: [OT] node.js and express

Goodness, you are not alone. I'm more surprised that you are surprised, that's all. Some links to confirm you are not alone (and some funny, cause it's true, reading) https://hackernoon.com/how-it-feels-to-learn-javascript-in-2016-d3a717dd577f#.cdvrepjwi https://medium.com/@wob/the-sad-state

Re: [OT] node.js and express

On Monday, 21 November 2016, Stephen Price wrote: > Goodness, you are not alone. > > I'm more surprised that you are surprised, that's all. > > > Some links to confirm you are not alone (and some funny, cause it's true, > reading) > > https://hackernoon.com/how-it-feels-to-learn-javascript-in- >

Re: [OT] node.js and express

Don't waste your time with nodejs, it's an unmitigated nightmare. Someone will mention portability somewhere in the conversation and then you know how high the BS is. People hate microsoft, and especially .net because they have been around for longer than they can remember, it will pass Dav

Re: [OT] node.js and express

Which bit? The pain? Hahah... yeah. It was my favourite saying back when I was in Infrastructure. "Hell, if this shit actually worked, we'd be out of a job!" From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com on behalf of Bec C Sent: Monday, 21 November 2016 4:06 PM To: ozDo

RE: [OT] node.js and express

I’m simply amazed at what we’ve done to ourselves as an industry. I was on a project a while back. With 12 devs and 7 months’ work, the core business web app was created. The guys worked hard. At the end, they were still struggling to get it to look right on different browsers. But in the end,

Re: [OT] node.js and express

Totally agree Greg. About 80% of what we are currently building could be done in 1/10 of the time using winforms or mvc. Some of our clients are even TELLING us how to build it using whatever technology they've recently heard of. One customer recently asked us to use Electron. Did they need cross

Re: [OT] node.js and express

I agree completely, where's the like/up rep button for you Dr Greg? *... .. / --- -.-. / .-.. . --. . .-. . / ... -.-. .. ... / -. .. -- .. ..- -- / . .-. ..- -.. .. - .. --- -. .. ... / .- -... . ... .-.-.-* On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 10:33 PM, Greg Low (罗格雷格博士) wrote: > I’m simply a

Re: [OT] node.js and express

> > Totally agree Greg. About 80% of what we are currently building could be > done in 1/10 of the time using winforms or mvc. > So there are lots of crazy people in here ... Fabulous! I can also write Winforms or WPF apps in 1/10 (or far less) the time of equivalent JS code. I have also had Clic

Re: [OT] node.js and express

On Tue, 22 Nov 2016 at 07:33 Greg Low (罗格雷格博士) wrote: There is no doubt that a full stack angular/rest/json is more expensive to build than WinForms (or MS Access). In any case where the app is widely used by a large number of users I think the cost is justified. We started building web apps bec

Re: [OT] node.js and express

On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 9:43 AM, David Connors wrote: > 80% of the cost of an application starts after you finish dev and a well > written modern, responsive web app costs very little to maintain (and works > on all the things both network and device). > > Not in my experience. I'm yet to see on

Re: [OT] node.js and express

I follow a number of CSS and javascript blogs, the boss thinks it's so I can stay ahead of the wave. The real reason is it gives me a chuckle every day when they try to solve a problem that they themselves inflicted by using a precompiler/framework that wasn't really needed in the first place. A c

RE: [OT] node.js and express

Typical Devs – all they talk about is how much faster/quicker they can write an app in one tech vs. another. As if that’s the only thing that matters. ☺☺ (note, smiley faces!) Development time/cost/effort is generally a small fraction of the cost of supporting an app, let alone the cost of supp

RE: [OT] node.js and express

What do you see as the key drivers Ken? I can guess as I spend my life in these environments but I’m left wondering if we could have solved them a much better way. We simply haven’t achieved productivity. And I’ll bet if someone is starting to build something new today, they can’t even work out

Re: [OT] node.js and express

@Ken; except that thick clients also are easier to debug and maintain as well; in fact the whole life-cycle is shorter. However I agree that fundamental drivers are towards web-based applications. Accessibility is the key; we're seeing the Internet of Things (IoT) exploding in growth. A huge growt

Re: [OT] node.js and express

Ack.. meant OutSystems IS a heavy solution. On 22 November 2016 at 09:45, Nathan Schultz wrote: > @Ken; except that thick clients also are easier to debug and maintain as > well; in fact the whole life-cycle is shorter. > > However I agree that fundamental drivers are towards web-based > applica

RE: [OT] node.js and express

Hi Nathen, How long have you been using Outsystems? Are you using the platform internally or for your customers? Regards Adrian Halid From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Nathan Schultz Sent: Tuesday, 22 November 2016 9:49 AM

RE: [OT] node.js and express

Don’t get me wrong – it’s not like web applications have solved all our woes…far from it! But let’s consider the state of IT around, say early 2000 (when this whole “web thing” was starting to become big in corporate land). It’s a Windows NT 4 / Windows 2000 type world – XP around the corner. T

RE: [OT] node.js and express

I think that’s more likely the case when you have a single thick client, in isolation. It doesn’t really scale when you have an ecosystem of hundreds (or thousands) of thick-clients in your environment. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Nat

Re: [OT] node.js and express

@Adrian, I've only been using OutSystems for a relatively short time. However, my company has been using it for a couple of years now (mainly products we sell and projects for large clients). You can use OutSystems for free as a sole-developer, but you don't get the ability to use on-premise deploy

Re: [OT] node.js and express

Dr Greg, the situation you describe below is quite rare from what I've seen. If a winform app would suffice then why was it important for the web app to work on multiple browsers? Multiple browser support is usually only really needed for Internet facing apps. Dev teams usually just tell the users

RE: [OT] node.js and express

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Nathan Schultz Sent: Tuesday, 22 November 2016 1:53 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: [OT] node.js and express But many of the same problems persist on the web, and the web has brought entirely new challenges. T

RE: [OT] node.js and express

Hi Tom, Not suggesting that one is a replacement for the other. Just commenting on the productivity loss that has happened over the years. We seem to have replaced one mess with a bigger one. Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 f

RE: [OT] node.js and express

But that’s a centralized vs distributed argument. I understand that. By why exactly does a centralized development process have to be orders of magnitude slower than a distributed one? I just think the tooling has let us down -> big time. Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) o

RE: [OT] node.js and express

Along with an endless fascination with “shiny new things” at every phase of the development process. Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 fax SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com | http://greglow

Re: [OT] node.js and express

It's tough to conquer this issue because most devs I encounter don't stay in one place very long and even ones that do get bored of the same old thing. They need to stay on top of shiny new tech to be employable so when they can do something in "old" tech x in a week, they fight to do it in shiny n

RE: [OT] node.js and express

A couple of possible reasons: - All the emphasis is on centrally delivered applications (aka web based), so that’s where all the innovation and change is happening. It will take time for maturity and tooling to catch up. - It’s harder to bypass the full technical cost of deve

Re: [OT] node.js and express

Ken, I'm curious as to why you think there is less technical debt in web-applications? I agree that the web is less mature - but it's not because of lack of time or tooling. A mate of a mate made millions making web-development software in the mid 90's (HotDog software), and I was doing web apps i

Re: [OT] node.js and express

I used HotDog back in 1996 or something cray cray like that. Then I went to HomeSite and then I made a wrong turn somewhere and did Coldfusion/DHTML/Java ... it defined me in a lot of ways. As for Tech Debt, the problem or issue with this entire JavaScript / Web mediocrity or bust is nothing reall