Mine, there are many many people on this list who believe that women
should have children and that it is their only purpose in life. So, the
argument you make is bound to be very controversial. I understand that Sam
is also for keeping women bound barefoot in the kitchen...for shame!
Steve
On Th
Greetings Economists,
I agree with what Mine raises about the sexist point of view that Sam
Pawlett put forward as his view of human reproduction. Sam had made that
remark in the context of discussing essentialism, and I would just add to
what Mine wrote that, Sam's remarks show how an essent
Sorry! Sam Pawlett's definition of sex is sexist. It is not simply sexist
because of the "penetration" thing (since intercourse is necessary).
so why is it sexist then?
first, sexual activity is constructed in his language as an activity
"initiated" by men, so women are presented as powerless a
And hello again, Charles.
>CB: This is a problem for you because of your utopianism. Marx predicted
that the Paris Commune would be a folly
>of dispair, but also knew that it was the beginning of actual socialism,
with all its faults, and advanced his theory of
>socialism based on it. Similarl
G'day Charles,
You say "Materialist dialectics was Engels' , and not Marx's."
I rteckon we have to be very explicit and specific here.
I thought, for instance, that you and I had come to agree that materialism
is not the same as physicalism? Social
*relations* are material for Marx, and, i
What did you read about Soviet socialism?
Mine
>Interesting musings Carrol, but words have meanings, and what most people
>mean by the word socialism is not what was seen in the USSR. You can call
>it what you want, but I don't call it socialism.
Rod
Carrol Cox wrote:
> Rod Hay wrote:
>
> >
Jim Devine wrote: >In the terms I used, this positing of possessiveness
reflected >Hobbes' experience with the English Civil War and the rise of
capitalist >competition.
Yes and No. Hobbes was not *simply* writing under the influence of his
circumstances. He was also *normatively* endorsing ca
>>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 05/18/00 10:15PM >>>
In a message dated 5/18/00 9:19:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Interesting musings Carrol, but words have meanings, and what most people
mean by
the word socialism is not what was seen in the USSR. You can call it what
I bet if we took a count more people would consider the USSR socialism (communism
even) than not.
CB
>>> Rod Hay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 05/18/00 09:15PM >>>
Interesting musings Carrol, but words have meanings, and what most people mean by
the word socialism is not what was seen in the USSR. You ca
>>> Carrol Cox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 05/18/00 02:21PM >>>
Jim Devine wrote:
> >Draper follows a somewhat controversial position, since he treats Marx and
> >Engels totally as a team, with no significant disagreements. For him,
> >"Marx" is sometimes used as short-hand for Marx-and-Engels, though
>>> "J. Barkley Rosser, Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 05/18/00 01:33PM >>>
The utopianism came
in when he actually discussed what socialism would
be, or more precisely communism, e.g. the withering
away of the state and "from each according to his
ability to each according to his needs;" all very ni
In a message dated 5/18/00 9:19:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Interesting musings Carrol, but words have meanings, and what most people
mean by
the word socialism is not what was seen in the USSR. You can call it what
you want,
but I don't call it socialism. >>
Ideas have consequences, but not mechanical ones. You cannot conclude from
the lack of democracy attendent in 20th century efforts to implement Marxist
in undemocratic countries that any attempt will enbd up that way. But you
seem to think taht any attenmpt at revolution is doomed to lead to
d
Interesting musings Carrol, but words have meanings, and what most people mean by
the word socialism is not what was seen in the USSR. You can call it what you want,
but I don't call it socialism.
Rod
Carrol Cox wrote:
> Rod Hay wrote:
>
> > Perhaps Marx was utopian. But we will have to wait un
>Brad,
>
>
>I also noticed that the bill was concerned about the elimination of
>corruption. What is the record of United States regarding corruption?
>Our political campaigns are nothing more than organized bribery. Is it
>possible for a non-corrupt politicians to get elected to anything higher
>Like NAFTA, the debate came down him to a question of the tariffs for
>textile producers. As I understand the bill, the reduction of tariffs is
>certainly the least objectionable aspect of the package. Along with the
>tariff reduction, come all sort of demands for the imposition of
>neoliberal
Rod Hay wrote:
> Perhaps Marx was utopian. But we will have to wait until we have a socialists
> society, in order to find out. The Soviet Union called itself socialist but it
> wasn't.
This I think is utopian. Socialism is a movement, not a platonic form against
which you can measure any stat
Perhaps Marx was utopian. But we will have to wait until we have a socialists
society, in order to find out. The Soviet Union called itself socialist but it
wasn't.
"J. Barkley Rosser, Jr." wrote:
> Jim,
> I did not mean that the vision was pathetic. I
> meant that the actual outcome in li
I've only browsed through this and have no strong
opinion on some of its included arguments. But it
seems worth considering.
Carrol
Original Message
Subject: The new U.S. movement--and China
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 15:44:27 -0400
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECT
It is against this complex backdrop of a country struggling for
development under a political system, which, while not democratic
along Western lines, is nevertheless legitimate, and which realizes
that its continuing legitimacy depends on its ability to deliver
economic growth that one mus
Barkley writes:
> I did not mean that the vision was pathetic. I meant that the
> actual outcome in light of the vision/
>(forecast) was pathetic.
but as I said:
> >Of course, there are lots of things that famous people said that we can
> >dismiss as "pathetic jokes," with the benefit of
Jim,
I did not mean that the vision was pathetic. I
meant that the actual outcome in light of the vision/
(forecast) was pathetic.
Barkley Rosser
-Original Message-
From: Jim Devine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thursday, May 18, 2000 5:30 PM
Sub
Barkley wrote:
>So, was this utopian or not? We certainly did >not see any withering
>away of the state, not in the former USSR, not in the PRC, not anywhere
Lenin argued that anarchists misinterpreted "withering away of the state"
in a very utopian way. Accordingly, they also misinterpreted M
Barkley writes that Marx was
>... also very utopian, especially the bit about the withering away of the
>state. What a pathetic joke.
Of course, there are lots of things that famous people said that we can
dismiss as "pathetic jokes," with the benefit of hindsight. Even we
non-famous people o
Mark,
So, was this utopian or not? We certainly did
not see any withering away of the state, not in the
former USSR, not in the PRC, not anywhere that
was or is ruled by a self-labeled Communist Party
(or some variation on that). Would that it were not so.
I was in Denmark for a conf
I wrote:
>>This is basically right, except that Hobbes did not "naturalize"
property ownership.<<
Mine writes: >in fact, he did. this is the sole idea behind R's criticism
of Hobbes in _On the Origins of Inequality_. Hobbes falsely projected what
is social (property) onto human nature, to sa
I met her several times in the 1960s. Detroit being not so far from here. (I used to
visit Fredy Perlman as well, another Detroit character). She was a wonderful woman,
but totally obsessive on Hegel. She liked Lenin, but primarily the Philosophical
Notebooks.
Rod
Michael Perelman wrote:
> N
"J. Barkley Rosser, Jr." wrote:
> Bakunin
> and his allies had come to control a majority of the
> national groups that were in the First International.
> At that point, when they demanded to take control of it,
> Marx shut it down.
Actually, he moved it to the U.S., where Sorge shut it down, I
Not only that, but she came to Chico to visit Ivan Svitak. A lot happens up here in
the big city.
Charles Brown wrote:
> Yes, indeedy. Raya D. lived in Detroit for a while, and there is a Marxist-Humanist
>chapter here. I attended a number of their meetings a few years ago, and read a
>numbe
Ricardo wrote:
>
> A few points: Kant is writing about artistic production, the act of
> producing a work of art, so I have trouble with your argument that
> Kant is anticipating what Marx later says about work.
So, it seems to me, is Marx in so far as production in the "realm of
freedom" is co
Jim Devine wrote:.
>This is basically right, except that Hobbes did not "naturalize" property
>ownership.
in fact, he did. this is the sole idea behind R's criticism of Hobbes in
_On the Origins of Inequality_. Hobbes falsely projected what is social
(property) onto human nature, to say that
Barkley Rosser:
> The utopianism came
> in when he actually discussed what socialism would
> be, or more precisely communism, e.g. the withering
> away of the state and "from each according to his
> ability to each according to his needs;" all very nice,
> but also very utopian, especially t
There is a reference in Rob Scott's paper "China Can Wait"
to "market-distorting" policies in China that are incompatible
with WTO membership. This has been interpreted by some (incl
myself, actually) as a jaundiced reference to industrial policy.
EPI was founded in part to conduct research on t
Ted:
> Marx does not reduce Kant's "production through freedom" to "techne".
>
> For instance, like Kant (for whom "production through freedom" can "only
> prove purposive as play, i.e. as occupation which is pleasant in itself"
> Critique of Judgment p. 146) he conceives production through freed
>In fact some Marxists argue that although Marx did not completely agree
>with R's notion of the general will, he was positively inlfluenced by R's
>critique of private property (unlike liberals like Hobbes and Locke who
>naturalized property ownership as a basis for apologizing inequalities a
RE
>concerning the recent "free trade with Africa" bill, Brad DeLong writes:
>>... Effects on African economies may be substantial. Average labor
>>productivity in both Africa and the U.S. rises. Real wages in Africa
for
>>urban workers surely rise, and for rural workers probably rise
On 18 May 00, at 10:21, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
"I agree that Marx's reply to (really comments on) Bakunin,
although plausible sounding at the time, turned out to be wrong and
B to be right. However, they do show M's own commitment to
democracy. He dismisses B's charge that he wants dictator
Jim Devine wrote:
> >Draper follows a somewhat controversial position, since he treats Marx and
> >Engels totally as a team, with no significant disagreements. For him,
> >"Marx" is sometimes used as short-hand for Marx-and-Engels, though in
> >citations he is always clear about which said what.
In fact some Marxists argue that although Marx did not completely agree
with R's notion of the general will, he was positively inlfluenced by R's
critique of private property (unlike liberals like Hobbes and Locke who
naturalized property ownership as a basis for apologizing inequalities
and poss
>>> Jim Devine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 05/18/00 01:28PM >>>
>Draper follows a somewhat controversial position, since he treats Marx and
>Engels totally as a team, with no significant disagreements. For him,
>"Marx" is sometimes used as short-hand for Marx-and-Engels, though in
>citations he is alw
>>> "J. Barkley Rosser, Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 05/18/00 01:30PM >>>
The bottom line remains that once
things did not go his way, Marx did not respect whatever
rules of conduct there were in the organization and ended it.
He verbally supported some form of democracy, but his
personal conduct d
Mine,
But, Marx's remarks do not address what socialism
will be. It is just more critique.
The utopianism came
in when he actually discussed what socialism would
be, or more precisely communism, e.g. the withering
away of the state and "from each according to his
ability to each acco
>>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 05/18/00 01:28PM >>>
> CB: Does Draper recognize the centrality of popular sovereignty in Marx's theory of
>democracy ?
Yes, and not in a way that allows for single party dictatorship.
> On what specific issues does he claim to have a more accurate understanding of
Michael,
Well, I may be wrong about this, and will have
to eat more crow (good for egomaniac me, :-)), but
it is my memory that what happened was that whether
by hook or by crook or by whatever means, Bakunin
and his allies had come to control a majority of the
national groups that were in t
>Draper follows a somewhat controversial position, since he treats Marx and
>Engels totally as a team, with no significant disagreements. For him,
>"Marx" is sometimes used as short-hand for Marx-and-Engels, though in
>citations he is always clear about which said what.
>
>
>
>CB: Br
> CB: Does Draper recognize the centrality of popular sovereignty in Marx's theory of
>democracy ?
Yes, and not in a way that allows for single party dictatorship.
> On what specific issues does he claim to have a more accurate understanding of
>Marx's theory of democracy than Lenin ?
The f
A Forward from the Marxism list.
Bello is a voice of reason from the Asian perspective.
US attitude on China is based on two phobias: fear of communism and fear of
non-white Asians.
China, Cuba , Viet Nam and North Korea are the only three communist countries left in
the world. China is partic
RE:
>Well, it is necessary that the male penetrate the female or the
species
>will fail to reproduce itself.
This "biological fact" might lead to a different understanding of society
than the following "biological fact":
Well, it is necessary that the female enve
>>> Jim Devine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 05/18/00 01:08PM >>>
>CB: Does Draper recognize that Engels is also a source on the Marxist view
>of democracy ( etc.) ?
Draper follows a somewhat controversial position, since he treats Marx and
Engels totally as a team, with no significant disagreements.
Barkley wrote:
>In the Critique of the Gotha Program he clearly goes totally utopian in
his programmatic speculations.
Just the contrary. _The Critique of the Gotha Program_ is one of the most
"realist" criticisms of the program of the Eisenach faction of the German
social democratic movement.
by Walden Bello and Anuradha Mittal, at the Food First web-site:
Dangerous Liaisons: Progressives, the Right, and the Anti-China
Trade Campaign
Like the United States, China is a country that is full of
contradictions. It is certainly not a country that can be summed up as "a
rogue natio
Marx feared the damage that Bakunin would do. They would make fierce
statements, just calling for repression, without organizing any base to resist
the state. I believe that they declared a revolution in Lyon without doing
anything to back it up. The police broke up workers' organizations that
>>> Doug Henwood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 05/18/00 12:49PM >>>
Sam Pawlett wrote:
>Well, it is necessary that the male penetrate the female or the species
>will fail to reproduce itself.
...except for the occasional turkey-baster.
_
CB: Now there's sex materialized by a new regulatory
Doug Henwood wrote:
> Sam Pawlett wrote:
>
> >Well, it is necessary that the male penetrate the female or the species
> >will fail to reproduce itself.
>
> ...except for the occasional turkey-baster.
Why not say "it is necessary for the female to engulf the male sperm . . ."?
How do you deter
>CB: Does Draper recognize that Engels is also a source on the Marxist view
>of democracy ( etc.) ?
Draper follows a somewhat controversial position, since he treats Marx and
Engels totally as a team, with no significant disagreements. For him,
"Marx" is sometimes used as short-hand for Marx
>>> Jim Devine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 05/18/00 12:40PM >>>
At 10:30 AM 5/18/00 -0400, you wrote:
>What is Draper's theory of democracy ? Does he start from popular
>sovereignty ?
I guess so, but I don't know if he developed his own theory of democracy.
He mostly talks about Marx's theory.
_
Brad writes:
>Or, in other words: "Democracy? We don't need no stinkin' democracy! We
>directly express the general will!"
That's the perspective of many utopian socialists, Stalinists, and the IMF,
which sees its policies as Good For Humanity in the Long Run, so that it
doesn't matter if demo
>> Jim Devine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 05/18/00 12:40
I think, however, the fault doesn't lay with Marx as much as with his
followers. The problem is that there's no reason to restrict one's source
of insights to only Marx and Engels. We can learn from all sorts of other
socialist theorists (includ
Barkley wrote:
>BTW, in his personal political dealings Marx was not known for democratic
>tolerance. When Bakunin and the anarchists threatened to take control of
>the First International, Marx closed it, shut down the shop, took his
>marbles and went home and pouted.
this a partial picture
>>> "J. Barkley Rosser, Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 05/18/00 12:24PM >>>
Charles,
I intend to track this down. My first check agrees
that they committed suicide together, not that they were
gunned down, but that it was in conjunction with the
failure of the Paris Commune. A check of their d
Sam Pawlett wrote:
>Well, it is necessary that the male penetrate the female or the species
>will fail to reproduce itself.
...except for the occasional turkey-baster.
Doug
Justin writes:
>I would add to this analysis that I think the democratic Marx was a lot
>more popular until the rise of the USSR; you see this in people like Rosa
>Luxemburg ... But the Soviet Unuion claimed the mantle of Marx and
>squelched democracy, So in the shadow of its prestige, the demo
concerning the recent "free trade with Africa" bill, Brad DeLong writes:
>... Effects on African economies may be substantial. Average labor
>productivity in both Africa and the U.S. rises. Real wages in Africa for
>urban workers surely rise, and for rural workers probably rise.
why would real
At 10:30 AM 5/18/00 -0400, you wrote:
>What is Draper's theory of democracy ? Does he start from popular
>sovereignty ?
I guess so, but I don't know if he developed his own theory of democracy.
He mostly talks about Marx's theory.
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] & http://liberalarts.lmu.edu/~jde
At 12:25 PM 5/17/00 -0700, you wrote:
>>At 10:48 AM 05/17/2000 -0400, you wrote:
>>>Second, the claim that forcing people to be free is OK does not follow
>>>from malleability, if if Marx held the malleability thesis.
>>
>>Rousseau used the seemingly sinister saying about forcing people to be
>>
In The Closing of the American Mind, of course. ;) --jks
In a message dated Thu, 18 May 2000 12:16:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Doug Henwood
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
<< Brad De Long wrote:
>So why, then, is the first Marx so weak in post-Marxian Marxism? Why
>was the world afflicted with,
CB,
Well, there needs to be voting and the opposition
needs to be allowed to exist and speak. Otherwise,
I'm not sure. Marx's complaint about the parliamentarians
seemed to have mostly to do with their pay and privileges.
I don't mind reducing the privileges of legislators, but one
needs t
Charles,
I intend to track this down. My first check agrees
that they committed suicide together, not that they were
gunned down, but that it was in conjunction with the
failure of the Paris Commune. A check of their death
dates would probably resolve this. He was Paul Lafargue.
BTW
Brad De Long wrote:
>So why, then, is the first Marx so weak in post-Marxian Marxism? Why
>was the world afflicted with, say, Paul Sweezy's claim that "One
>need not have a specific idea of a... beautiful musical composition,
>to recognize that the... the rock-and-roll that blares at us
>exem
Ricardo wrote:
>
>> Marx has appropriated idea of "practical-laboring activity" as
>> self-determination from Kant and Hegel.
>
>
> in the process transforming its meaning and, as Habermas would
> say, reducing it to "techne", and though there is a critical reflective
> aspect to Marx, it is st
Hey Penners - Somehow I ended up on this e-list called tch-econ, which is
low volume enough that I haven't bothered unsubbing. Then this little
exchange came along. Had to pass it along.
Ellen
ORGINAL MESSAGE:
In a discussion with a literature
In _Reminiscences of Lenin_ Krupskaya says:
" Ilyich (Lenin) got in touch with Paul Lafargue, through Charles Rappaport.
Lafargue, the son-in-law of Karl Marx, was a well-tried fighter, of whose opinon
Ilyich thought very highly. Paul Lafargue, with his wife Laura - Marx's daughter -
li
http://www.cfeps.org/papers.html
has some papers that may be of interest to listers. They
include:
"Designing Policies to Combat Joblessness" by Philip
Harvey
"THE MISSING
ENTITLEMENT AND THE LOST ENTITLEMENT: WORK AND WELFARE, 1935 –
PRESENT" by Gertrude Schaffner
Goldberg
Histori
I agree with your point Rod. More incite into Marx's attitude to utopianism may be
found in Engels' _ Socialism : Utopian and Scientific_.
I think that Engels and Marx definitely make a big thing about their not anticipating
socialism, but actually they do say a lot of things about it sprinkl
Marx was well aware that the political system of capitalism was a dictatorship of the
bourgeoisie, with bourgeois democratic republican forms shaped so much in favor of
the bourgeoisie ( see The U.S. Constitution and _The Federalist Papers_ for some of
the construction of U.S. bourgeois democr
The L.A. TIMES today describes the symptoms of "Gulf War syndrome" as
"fatigue, rashes, insomnia, digestive problems, poor concentration, nausea,
joint pains, and other..." (page A31).
With all due respect to the veterans of that "war," this sounds like the
symptoms of being middle aged or of
What is Draper's theory of democracy ? Does he start from popular sovereignty ?
CB
>>> Jim Devine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 05/17/00 10:18PM >>>
I cite Hal Draper's magisterial books on Marx's politics too often. People
bored with it should instead read Richard Hunt's two-volume THE POLITICAL
IDEAS
I agree that Marx's reply to (really comments on) Bakunin, although plausible sounding
at the time, turned out to be wrong and B to be right. However, they do show M's own
commitment to democracy. He dismisses B's charge that he wants dictatorship instead of
embracing it, as Lenin did after tak
> BLS DAILY REPORT, WEDNESDAY, MAY 17, 2000:
>
> RELEASED TODAY: "College Enrollment and Work Activity of 1999 High School
> Graduates" indicates that 63 percent of the high school graduating class
> of 1999 was enrolled in colleges or universities in the fall. The college
> enrollment rate was
>>> "J. Barkley Rosser, Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 05/17/00 05:25PM >>>
Jim,
Hi. I'm back, at least for a few weeks.
Guess I'll side with Brad D. on this one, although only
slightly. I agree that the first Marx is clearly the dominant
one in most of his writings, the one for free devel
>>> Carrol Cox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 05/17/00 06:25PM >>>
"J. Barkley Rosser, Jr." wrote:
> I think that
> it is worth keeping in mind that his own daughter and son-in-
> law were gunned down at le mur des Communards in the Pere
> Lachaise cemetary at the end of that sad episode,
As I recall,
Hey, I'm not dogmatic about my Changism. Extract the rational kernel of left liberals
when you can.
CB
>>> Stephen E Philion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 05/17/00 05:07PM >>>
If Charles is channelling Chang, he's doing a bad job of it. He forgot to
add that we have nothing to fear from unemployment...
Michael Perelman wrote:
> Tussy committed suicide. The daughter in Paris, Laura, died early of
> natural causes, I believe.
Eleanor (Tussy) committed suicide in London in 1898. Laura married
Paul Lafargue. She and her husband both committed suicide sometime
after 1910. I have (long ago) read
> There are clearly two traditions in _Marxism_, but Marx himself fits only
> the first Marx that Brad describes. Hal Draper's book on Marx's political
> writings shows this very clearly. Draper also has a useful little essay,
> "the Two Souls of Socialism," which distinguishes between the t
I doubt it, but this was a particularly well-done column.
mbs
>
>
> today's column [May 17, 2000] is a case where PK is accurate, applying
> economic logic where it's appropriate (criticizing George W. Bush's
> proposal to put Social Security dollars into the stock market. This is a
> big im
PENLers,
Robert L. Allen reviews Bill Mandel's new book below.
Seth Sandronsky
From: William Mandel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "\"[ACTIVIST]\"@mindspring.com" <"[ACTIVIST]"@mindspring.com>
Subject: [Fwd: Review]
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 22:08:13 -0700
To be removed from
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