These things are called Hayekian triangles. Here is a reference
from the Von Mises institute:
Cheers, Ken Hanly
> Business-cycle theory.
>
> Hayek's writings on capital, money, and the business cycle are widely regarded as
>his most
> important contributions to economics (Hicks, 1967; Mac
The USSR's GOSPLANs were " planning" from above . And markets,
(controlled in various ways)-- existed in the USSR up to its demise.
This is STATE planning but not socialist planning. Western market societies
also have varied forms of planning by the STATE, from So. Korea ,
Mussolini's Italy
Is this stuff typical of Von Mises, the fallacy of incomplete
disjunction etc.? So the price structure motivates the poor but
leaves the rich laughing all the way to the bank and the Riviera.
What nonsense! The market leaves to everyone a choice of whether
to use all their faculties and abilities
Are you thinking about Harberger triangles? I have a discussion of that
subject in my Natural Instability book.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Can someone give me a short summary of Hayek's triangles. I
gather the triangles illustrate the problem of capital being
transformed from forms in which it could be used for numerous
purposes to forms in which its use is limited. In my hog barn
example, finance capital is turned into materials tha
I don't see the point in repeating that Hayek won the debate. Who is
the judge or the referee? The Austrian method is to predicate that
markets are efficient and then to show how any deviation from the market
creates a screwup. Just how well do markets handle information? I
differ with Justin
In a message dated 7/17/00 6:58:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< I add once again that Hayek doesn't explain why we
can't use planning as a democratic procedure of discovery through
trial and error, figuring out how to meet existing needs and to even
find out & dev
In a message dated 7/17/00 6:58:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Hayek doesn't have an answer, and as many noted he was uninterested
in empirical work of actually comparing the cost of information
gathering for a planned economy with transaction costs &
externaliti
In a message dated 7/17/00 6:35:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Just a few additional points for Justin to address:
1) In describing Schweicart's market socialism you included markets as
one of
the socialist parts. Markets per se are not socialist. The system is
In a message dated 7/17/00 6:02:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< It appears Justin that you don't have time to read as well as to check
your spelling. >>
Sorry if I offended you. I have no idea what you want out of an argument.
Hayek presents an argument about the inc
In a message dated 7/17/00 5:01:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< The
disagreement is that I think the Hayekian critique doesn't prove --
except by fiat of Hayek's assumption that divinely perfect knowledge
is necessary for successful planning -- that planned econom
In a message dated 7/17/00 5:00:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< The critique makes no sense to me at all. Would von Mises or Hayek really
claim that we do not know our needs and desires without participating in a
market? I know that I want to have fresh mashed potatoe
Charles Andrews wrote:
> From Capitalism to Equality:
> An Inquiry into the Laws of Economic Change
> by Charles Andrews
>
> The book begins with the facts showing that work and life have
> gotten worse since 1973 for 80% of the people in the United
> States. The problem is to expla
Sorry. I didn't realise that the stuff about Hume was part of
this longer post or I would have deleted the extraneous material.
I can see that prices are for the consumer a sign of what can be
afforded, and for the hypothetical rational consumer would lead
him or her to allocate funds "efficiently
Dave's report today had two indications that deflationary pressures are
weakening. Is that true? Other reports suggest that the economy might be
slowing down. What is happening???
Richardson_D wrote:
> >
> > A survey of business economists showed that more companies are raising
> > prices tha
From Capitalism to Equality:
An Inquiry into the Laws of Economic Change
by Charles Andrews
The book begins with the facts showing that work and life have
gotten worse since 1973 for 80% of the people in the United
States. The problem is to explain this persistent decline. After
an exp
So what is this rule or law to which Hume refers?
Cheers, kr hanly
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
>
> Hi Jim & Ken:
>
> Jim wrote:
> >For what it's worth, I agree with you totally on this. BTW, when my
> >10-year-old son saw your name, he excitedly said "Yoshie!" in
> >reference Nintendo.
>
> I'm
"alientated" work? Is that digging up foreign potatoes for the boss?
Cheers, Ken Hanly
Michael Perelman wrote:
> The work ethic, as it is typically used, applies to alientated/alienating work -- I
>work hard to get
>
> Marx's self-realization was something else.
>
> I just played baske
>Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
>
> > Third-World nationalism often mobilizes the idea of the nation that
> > masks class & gender oppressions
>
>Isn't this a bit circular? I don't mean to be frivolous. And nationalist
>discourse that hopes to succeed must sublimate class etc oppressions by
>means of/via
Thanks.
>
> Okay, Michael. I will, but a blatant misrepresentation of what I had said, added to
>several posts attacking my intelligence finally got to me.
>
> I'm calm, really I am. Real calm. Maybe a good game of basketball would help me. And
>my next softball game isn't until thursday.
>
>
Okay, Michael. I will, but a blatant misrepresentation of what I had said, added to
several posts attacking my intelligence finally got to me.
I'm calm, really I am. Real calm. Maybe a good game of basketball would help me. And
my next softball game isn't until thursday.
Rod
Michael Perelman
Hi Steve:
>I'm not inclined to read Doug's posts as 'bouts of despair over the state
>of the left.' For example, his posts from Seattle and Washington were not
>filled with any sense of despair. He employs Marxist categories of
>political economic analysis with the same level of sophistication an
Yoshie,
I'm not inclined to read Doug's posts as 'bouts of despair over the state
of the left.' For example, his posts from Seattle and Washington were not
filled with any sense of despair. He employs Marxist categories of
political economic analysis with the same level of sophistication and
enth
Ken says:
>I know when I want sex without going to a
>red light district.
If Doug weren't in one of those bouts of despair over the "State of
the Left," he might post & say that's because (a) you've retired in a
depopulated corner of Canadian countryside or (b) you haven't read
Zizek. :)
Yo
Calm down plase.
Rod Hay wrote:
>
> You provided a lot of bluster about the Soviet Union. I am talking about something
>much simpler and more in my limited grasp. Real existing non market institutions,
>that seem to work perfectly well.
>
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California St
Yoshie's post led me to Brad's article on the New Economy. I found it most
enjoyable. It is a capitalist calculation debate.
http://econ161.berkeley.edu/Comments/Kaching.html
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail [EMAIL P
Michael Perelman wrote:
>Am I the only one who finds this post mostly consist of slogans?
I am less irritated by the slogans
than I
am
by the zig-zag line formatting in neil's post, which usually
occurs when
you copy from a web page and
paste it into
an email program but somehow neil managed
to
you are correct.
steve
On Mon, 17 Jul 2000, Michael Perelman wrote:
> Am I the only one who finds this post mostly consist of slogans?
>
> neil wrote:
>
> > Well, Big Bill Haywood's work is for the most part
> > quite inspiring. But his era (approx 1895-1925) was on the cusp of capitals
> >
>
The work ethic, as it is typically used, applies to alientated/alienating work -- I
work hard to get
Marx's self-realization was something else.
I just played basketball for 2 hours. I am exhausted. Was my effort a reflection of
my work ethic?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I guess I am a
Am I the only one who finds this post mostly consist of slogans?
neil wrote:
> Well, Big Bill Haywood's work is for the most part
> quite inspiring. But his era (approx 1895-1925) was on the cusp of capitals
>
> advance to world economy , imperialism , WW1 ,etc as this changed a lot of
> things
The male list is either A) a problem in proofing my voice recognition program
or B) a brilliant insight into the nature of this and other lists.
Timework Web wrote:
> Michael Perelman wrote:
>
> > In fact, I suspect that once we began to struggle against
> > the system is now stands and build co
Hi Jim & Ken:
Jim wrote:
>For what it's worth, I agree with you totally on this. BTW, when my
>10-year-old son saw your name, he excitedly said "Yoshie!" in
>reference Nintendo.
I'm happy that you agree with me. But I don't get the reference to
Nintendo (in fact, I've never played any video
Correction. I don't really want to have fresh mashed potatoes out of my garden.
They would be much too muddy and it would be too difficult to prepare them.
Just a few additional points for Justin to address:
1) In describing Schweicart's market socialism you included markets as one of
the soc
>Jim, in the case of Slovenia at least, unemployment did not rise during
>the crisis as it remained around 2 per cent though this was in part due to
>overemployment by enterprises. Contrary to the prevailing neoclassical
>orthodoxy (Ward-Vanek) workers were overly protective of fellow
>worker
It appears Justin that you don't have time to read as well as to check your spelling.
You claimed that Hayek had proven that only markets could provide incentives to obtain
information. He hasn't proved anything of the kind, he claimed it. It was an empirical
statement. An empirical statement r
Paul, thanks for the very informative post.
At 04:10 PM 7/17/00 -0500, you wrote:
>Jim, in the case of Slovenia at least, unemployment did not rise during
>the crisis as it remained around 2 per cent though this was in part due to
>overemployment by enterprises.
right. Also, wasn't a lot of th
Whew! Some people on this list must have a lot of free time or be
awfully fast typists given the amount of posting that has been going on
re this and related streams. Let me try to answer some of the queries and
respond to some of the issues raised.
The first is easy: Justin, you can order a
At 04:59 PM 7/17/00 -0400, you wrote:
>A perpetual shortage of consumer goods (hence the rule of insecurity &
>unpleasant surprises) obviously wouldn't do. The disagreement is that I
>think the Hayekian critique doesn't prove -- except by fiat of Hayek's
>assumption that divinely perfect knowl
The critique makes no sense to me at all. Would von Mises or Hayek really
claim that we do not know our needs and desires without participating in a
market? I know that I want to have fresh mashed potatoes out of my garden
without participating in a market. I know when I want sex without going to
>I guess I am a fan of the work ethic, but I thought that was
>actually a Marxist ideal, self-realization through productive labor.
>But the reason I push markets in their place is not that I think
>they will promote such self-realization, but because they help us
>avoid waste. Even a LaFargia
JKS wrote:
>Nice, can I use this? I'll credit you with it. Of course i don't think the
>IH is God. The IH obviates the need for God. You don't need one entity
>that smart who knows everything if you have a lot of little entities not
>so smart who know a little bit and a means of coordinating th
Nice, can I use this? I'll credit you with it. Of course i don't think the IH is God.
The IH obviates the need for God. You don't need one entity that smart who knows
everything if you have a lot of little entities not so smart who know a little bit and
a means of coordinating their knowledge.
I guess I am a fan of the work ethic, but I thought that was actually a Marxist ideal,
self-realization through productive labor. But the reason I push markets in their
place is not that I think they will promote such self-realization, but because they
help us avoid waste. Even a LaFargian advo
Justin wrote:
>Well, the impasse was something we reached while ago. Much of the
>shapre of it involves misunderstanding. There is a deep, underlying
>aspect to--many socialists thinks that markets and competition
>areevil, and would think they were evil even if they could do
>everything I sa
For what it's worth, I agree with you totally on this. BTW, when my
10-year-old son saw your name, he excitedly said "Yoshie!" in reference
Nintendo.
Yoshie wrote:
>... A Mieses-Hayekian opposition to our position, however, would be
>something like this: "all needs & desires of all individuals
>Since I try as hard as I can to avoid
> attributing motives and/or emotions to Justin, so I don't appreciate this
> effort. Even if this remark is not aimed at me, I think that this mode of
> argumentation violates the rules of "analytical philosophy" as I understand
> them. Attacking someon
>It also shows how a reasonably just health care system that distributes
>care on the basis of need can exist in a country with extremely limited
>resources whereas the US, one of the richest countries in the world,
>leaves many without insurance and unable to afford health care
>while cosmetic su
Since as far as I can tell, the "impasse" that Michael sees was attained
between Justin and myself, I guess that the attribution of motives and/or
emotions seen below is aimed at me. Since I try as hard as I can to avoid
attributing motives and/or emotions to Justin, so I don't appreciate this
Well, Slate got part of it wrong -- the Times story featured an iron ore
mine. Peak load pricing, though it has some merit, has much less than it
appears at first glance. The reporter, Matthew Wald, has a very short
rolodex, mainly featuring NRDC, to his loss.
The peak pricing freaks are a
Well, the impasse was something we reached while ago. Much of the shapre of it
involves misunderstanding. There is a deep, underlying aspect to--many socialists
thinks that markets and competition areevil, and would think they were evil even if
they could do everything I say, and plans couldn't
does anyone know of a source for a consistently-calculated measure of the
rate of profit (rate of return) of the US non-financial corporate business
sector going all the way back to 1947 or so? I need some measure comparable
to that published by the Department of Commerce's Bureau of Economic
I don't have a spell-checker on my systerm, which should be obvious. Sorry. Also don't
have time to write this stuff and copyedit. Sorry. --jks
In a message dated Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:06:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Jim Devine
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
<< At 10:33 AM 7/17/00 -0400, you wrote:
Michael Perelman wrote:
> In fact, I suspect that once we began to struggle against
> the system is now stands and build counter institutions, these counter
> institutions would be more likely to form the basis of any future
> socialist state that some recipe that we would cook up here on a male
Well, Big Bill Haywood's work is for the most part
quite inspiring. But his era (approx 1895-1925) was on the cusp of capitals
advance to world economy , imperialism , WW1 ,etc as this changed a lot of
things
for dominant capital and workers movements in antagonism-class combats .
Todays IWW'
>Katha Pollitt wrote:
>
>>and a way for imported academics like Gayatri Spivak to score points
>>from guilty liberals.
>
>What has Spivak said about the Taliban? Last time I heard her speak
>she was talking about Kant.
>
>Doug
Spivak doesn't say that sexist practices in poor nations should be
e
from SLATE magazine (7/17/00):
> The NYT leads with a trend story about how some utility companies are
> now trying to use pricing to manage energy demand. The main examples: 1)
> a power company paying--at a rate considerably lower than the cost of
> buying electricity on the open market--a c
I think that we have reached an impasse here. We all agree that both
Soviet-style central planning and the market are both flawed. Neither
market socialism nor (what we might call, for want of a better word)
real socialism have ever been tried. Market socialism is susceptible to
outside pressur
At 10:33 AM 7/17/00 -0400, you wrote:
> I really do appreciate Jim Divine's contribution, whicha t least comes
> to grips with real issues and offers real arguments.
thanks, but check your spell-checker.
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] & http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine
At 07:32 AM 7/17/00 +0100, you wrote:
>That is in fact what I rather assumed. I almost said I understood he came
>from the "good" university of Chicago. In more recent decades the Jesuits
>have had links with liberation theology, no?
as someone who works at a Jesuit-dominated school (one of Loy
Calm down Justin. Hayek's critique is not theoretically deep. It is simply an
empirical claim. But he has done not one empirical study to back it up. It may be
correct or it may not. Only experience will show. Pointing to past incidents of
failure proves very little. As Michael and many others
That's not funny.
Ricardo Duchesne wrote:
> What did that bad girl do?
>
> > I have asked Mine to take a vacation from pen-l for a week.
> >
> > --
> > Michael Perelman
> > Economics Department
> > California State University
> > Chico, CA 95929
> >
> > Tel. 530-898-5321
> > E-Mail [EMAIL PROTEC
> BLS DAILY REPORT, FRIDAY, JULY 14, 2000:
>
> TODAY'S RELEASE: "Producer Price Indexes - June 2000" indicates that the
> Producer Price Index for Finished Goods advanced 0.6 percent in June,
> seasonally adjusted. This index showed no change in May and declined 0.3
> percent in April. The inde
So the argument is meaningless if it does not estabalish a priori that markets are
better than any kind of planning anywhere? Rubbish. Nonsense. That is a fast way of
not having to try to answer a very strong, empirically supported, theoretically deep
critique of a nonmarket economy. To see thi
This snipe is unfair. i have been (alsmost single handedly) giving detailed, lengthy,
precise, and extensive arguments. I do now and then make a suggestion for reading an
original source, but if you wanted an account of the calculation debate, you have a
moderately good introduction to the main
What did that bad girl do?
> I have asked Mine to take a vacation from pen-l for a week.
>
> --
> Michael Perelman
> Economics Department
> California State University
> Chico, CA 95929
>
> Tel. 530-898-5321
> E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>Elson makes point about demands for state activity absent self-activity
>(of various kinds, seems like she refers to citizens more than workers)
>being non-starter. She calls for using state resources to facilitate
>networks (worker-consumer-activist) to educate folks to develop what
>she ca
> The problem is that it is all well and good to say we should be
> "socializing markets," but the real world has been moving exactly in
> the opposite direction of privatizing the public domain (DNA, water,
> information, social programs, state-owned enterprises -- you name it,
> they have or
In that case, the argument is meaningless. We can only know if alternatives to
markets can work if we try. Even then we can only know that that particular
experiment did not work, not that no institutional arrangement can work. If the
proposition is not general, it is merely an empirical hypothesi
Justin says:
>Sure. Mondragon is just good evidence that the thing might work. It is not
>market socialism. It is worker self-management in a capitalist context.
Right, but unless you are arguing that we can somehow manage to
create the world of market socialism at once, a country that adopts
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