On the other hand, it may be said that there are highly developed but
historically less mature forms of society in which the highest economic forms
are to be found, such as cooperation, advanced division of labour etc, and
yet
there is no money in existence, eg. Peru
Doesn't sound like
Rob Schaap wrote:
I mean, what's C without M?
Nothing, right? It's not a C unless it's produced and exchanged for M.
Doug
Rob Schaap wrote:
I mean, what's C without M?
Doug writes:
Nothing, right? It's not a C unless it's produced and exchanged for M.
In theory at least, it would be possible to run a capitalist economy using
barter. However, transactions costs would be very steep, while finance
would be quite
Doug Henwood wrote:
Rob Schaap wrote:
I mean, what's C without M?
Nothing, right? It's not a C unless it's produced and exchanged for M.
This may be one of those quibbles that flips bystanders out -- but isn't
a product still a commodity even though it is resting unsold in an
Doug Henwood wrote:
Rob Schaap wrote:
I mean, what's C without M?
Nothing, right? It's not a C unless it's produced and exchanged for M.
I was just speculating that you can't run a system based on generalised
commodity production without a conveniently portable universal measure and
Jim, I don't think this truism needs to be repeated in _this_ context,
because what is at issue is not whether Marx was right or wrong in this
or that particular, or even in this or that major corollary of his
thought. The perspective Lou is arguing does not modify or correct Marx,
it simply
...
Michael Pugliese
- Original Message -
From: Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 6:07 AM
Subject: [PEN-L:12323] Re: Re: the mita
Steve wrote:
I'm afraid I never made the connection between Brenner and Warren. Must
be
something like the connection
Jim Devine:
I'm not the one who invented the term [semi-proletarian]. So you'll have
to explain why it
makes no sense. To me, it expresses the fact that the pure cases of theory
(proletarian, non-proletarian) often don't exist in pure form in empirical
and historical reality. We often see
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 7:07 AM
Subject: [PEN-L:12326] Re: Re: the mita
What Third-World revolutions really needed from proletariat
intellectuals in rich imperial nations was not so much the latter's
identification with the former as socialist
Jim Devine:
To say that each case must be examined only in its own terms (is this what
you're really saying?) is totally anti-theoretic, leaning heavily toward
stereotypes of post-modernism, full of sound and rhetorical fury but
signifying nothing.
No, rather I am saying that Marxists should
And such revolutions aren't likely to happen in the rich imperial
nations if their left intellectuals are interested only in affairs
thousands of miles from where they sit.
Doug
You forgot to mention that I live on the Upper East Side. Slipping in your
old age?
Louis Proyect
Marxism mailing
What I meant was that we must understand that our understanding is
imperfect and that we cannot speak as if we could command absolute truths.
On Tue, May 29, 2001 at 01:17:17PM -0400, Louis Proyect wrote:
Given this complexity, it is dangerous to pretend that one can command
adequate
What I meant was that we must understand that our understanding is
imperfect and that we cannot speak as if we could command absolute truths.
Michael Perelman
Who is talking about absolute truths? I am simply preparing to describe
extensive capitalist growth based on free wage labor in 18th
On Tue, 29 May 2001, Louis Proyect wrote:
Jim Devine:
To say that each case must be examined only in its own terms (is this what
you're really saying?) is totally anti-theoretic, leaning heavily toward
stereotypes of post-modernism, full of sound and rhetorical fury but
signifying nothing.
Am. Or at least explain to us how Frank's understanding of Lat. Am. is
superior to Petras's or Zeitlin's.
Steve
I have read Petras extensively. I consider him useful but ultraleft,
especially on Nicaragua. However, he has not written that much about the
16th to 18th century which is of
Mark Jones wrote:
Are you also saying, that revolutions only happen when left intellectuals
form vanguards?
Nope.
Doug
On Tue, 29 May 2001, Louis Proyect wrote:
Am. Or at least explain to us how Frank's understanding of Lat. Am. is
superior to Petras's or Zeitlin's.
Steve
I have read Petras extensively. I consider him useful but ultraleft,
especially on Nicaragua. However, he has not written that much
How do you know I'm smirking when I write these posts. Amazing powers you
have all the way over there in the Big Apple.
I don't know you if you are smirking or not, but I am glad that you don't
deny you are writing provocations.
I have read Zeitlin, what
charges do I have to defend him
Jim Devine:
To say that each case must be examined only in its own terms (is this what
you're really saying?) is totally anti-theoretic, leaning heavily toward
stereotypes of post-modernism, full of sound and rhetorical fury but
signifying nothing.
Louis Proyect:
No, rather I am saying that
Doug Henwood wrote:
such revolutions aren't likely to happen in the rich imperial
nations if their left intellectuals are interested only in affairs
thousands of miles from where they sit.
Are you saying that Louis Proyect is not interested in America?
Mark
Jim Devine:
Merchant capital = buying selling consumer and producer goods on the
market, M-C-M. As Marx argues, it's impossible (for a system of merchant
capital as a whole) to extort surplus-labor -- and produce a
surplus-product -- simply through buying and selling such goods.[*]
Look,
Quoth Jim:
If I remember correctly, some of Hammurabi's code referred to market
transactions. If there any experts on this subject reading this,
please correct me if I'm wrong.
Respondeth Lou:
I am an expert. You are wrong.
One small addition to Lou's thoughts - they're probably wrong.
The
Another commercial feature reflected in Hammurapi's code was the use of
silver as _both_ a means of payment _and_ a measure of value. In early
cultures the two most often varied: e.g., use silver or copper for means
of payment but cattle for measure of value. By Jim Blaut's criteria,
On Mon, 28 May 2001, Louis Proyect wrote:
Mercantilism = Code of Hammurabi = Kelly Girls?
Why not? For you Brenner=Kautsky
Graduate students of Ellen Wood=Fool
Raymond Lau=Trotskyist Sect leafleter
Zeitlin=Pinochet
Steve
Alas, Louis admits that Carrol and Jim are correct.
Steve
Of course they are correct. How can anybody deny that ancient Babylonian
society and day labor, the fastest growing job category in the USA by some
accounts, both fall under the rubric of mercantile capitalism. In fact the
first job I
On Mon, 28 May 2001, Louis Proyect wrote:
Alas, Louis admits that Carrol and Jim are correct.
Steve
Of course they are correct. How can anybody deny that ancient Babylonian
society and day labor, the fastest growing job category in the USA by some
accounts, both fall under the rubric of
Lou, why not give us the whole text instead of the parts that are
ironical. You know this section hardly does justice to the argument
Linebaugh is making in support of Marx and Engels...
And ain't it funny, when pomo's make the same exact kind of argument about
Marx and Engels you have a Dick
And ain't it funny, when pomo's make the same exact kind of argument about
Marx and Engels you have a Dick Cheney, but when the post-colonialists'
'world systems' folks make the argument that Marx was 'eurocentric,
teleological', etc. hey you just grab it and run with it. Ahmad's section
on Marx
I'm afraid I never made the connection between Brenner and Warren. Must be
something like the connection between Zeitlin and Pinochet...or Raymond
Lau and some dogmatic trotskyist sloganeer...
The arguments that Ahmad makes about the need to take seriously the study
of specific class relations
At 04:29 PM 05/25/2001 -0400, you wrote:
Jim Devine:
with regard to the case of contemporary Africa: in the world system,
merchant capital has become subordinated to industrial capital (part of a
unified system), so one might say that Africa is dominated by industrial
capital even if it isn't
Grundrisse, p. 513.
Louis Proyect wrote:
Karl Marx, Theories of Surplus Value, part 2:
The fact that we now not only call the plantation owners in America
capitalists, but that they *are* capitalists, is based on their existence
as anomalies within a world market based on free labor.
--
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