- Original Message -
From: "Yoshie Furuhashi" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
It is possible that some American liberals leftists actually
understood the essence of the American Prince's role in the Yugoslav
civil wars (and what happened before and after them) and said with
open
En relación a [PEN-L:2978] RE: Re: Memory History: Herman Mel,
el 10 Oct 00, a las 20:05, Lisa Ian Murray dijo:
Nestor,
Do you mean this to say that nationalism is still desirable as a form
of cultural defense against the Americanization of everything?
Ian
I am a socialist, I don't
I guess I am part of the stupid left that is blinkered by imperialist propaganda. I
don't see see how the ratio of state ownership in the former Yugoslavia is deeply
relevant to socialism or whether the regime was worth defending; I am aware that it
was high, but it was as high or higher in
Justin:
I guess I am part of the stupid left that is blinkered by imperialist
propaganda. I don't see see how the ratio of state ownership in the former
Yugoslavia is deeply relevant to socialism or whether the regime was worth
defending; I am aware that it was high, but it was as high or higher
Louis:
We just disagree about the importance of state ownership in the abstract. I support
the welfare provisions you describe, of course, but they are possible under social
democratic capitalism, and state ownership does not guarantee them either. However,
this is a very deep philosophical
Louis wrote:
The ratio of state ownership is deeply relevant. It helps to provide a
job. Jobs are necessary for life. With privatization, you get
unemployment. With unemployment you get begging, starvation, prostitution
and despair. Very important questions to the working class, which is the
Justin wrote:
I do not blame the destruction of Yugoslavia solely on the Milosovic
regime, any more than I blame the destruction of the USSR on the Yeltsin
regime. In both case,there was a conspiracy among nationalist demagogues
(Slobo, Tujdman, etc.) who saw more for themselves in being
Justin:
We just disagree about the importance of state ownership in the abstract. I
support the welfare provisions you describe, of course, but they are
possible under social democratic capitalism, and state ownership does not
guarantee them either. However, this is a very deep philosophical
Jim Devine:
Do you believe that state ownership automatically creates a job? It's not
true in Algeria, for example, where the state ownership of the oil industry
coexists with high unemployment (one factor that has encouraged the Islamic
movement against the government there). Also, even in
En relación a [PEN-L:3000] Re: Memory History: Herman Melvill,
el 11 Oct 00, a las 12:28, Louis Proyect dijo:
I would only add to their excellent article that social democracy is
only possible in imperialist countries. In Costa Rica, the one place
it occurred in the Third World, market
Message -
From: Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 11:11 AM
Subject: [PEN-L:2998] Re: Re: Re: Re: Memory History: Herman Melville's
_Benito Cereno_ (was Re: Yugoslavia to fSU and Chile)
Louis wrote:
The ratio of state ownership is deeply
11, 2000 8:44 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:3029] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Memory History: Herman
Melville's _Benito Cereno_ (was Re: Yugoslavia to fSU and Chile)
I agree that state or rather some type of collective ownership is a
necessary but not a sufficient condition for socialism. Among the positive
- Original Message -
From: "Jim Devine" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Nathan wrote: ... when a people democratically support atrocities by their
-government, it is not just the leadership that bears responsibility but
-the people themselves.
this sounds as if you are
En relación a [PEN-L:2914] Re: Re: Yugoslavia to fSU and Chile,
el 10 Oct 00, a las 0:36, Nathan Newman dijo:
Contra many folks, though, I think the US's collective guilt has far
less to do with its particular military actions, some of which like
Kosovo and Haiti I can defend, but in its
- Original Message -
From: "Nestor Miguel Gorojovsky" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Contra many folks, though, I think the US's collective guilt has far
less to do with its particular military actions, some of which like
Kosovo and Haiti I can defend, but in its collective
It seems to be a constant with Anglo politics that
they will always kill you or rob you on the basis of some
"principle", as the Irishman George Bernard Shaw once pointed out...
And this is worse than robbing or killing you on the basis of no principle? --jks
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It seems to be a constant with Anglo politics that
they will always kill you or rob you on the basis of some
"principle", as the Irishman George Bernard Shaw once pointed out...
And this is worse than robbing or killing you on the basis of no principle? --jks
Néstor wrote:
It seems to be a constant with Anglo politics that
they will always kill you or rob you on the basis of some
"principle", as the Irishman George Bernard Shaw once pointed out...
JKS wrote:
And this is worse than robbing or killing you on the basis of no
principle? --jks
En relación a [PEN-L:2965] Memory History: Herman Melville's ,
el 10 Oct 00, a las 17:51, Yoshie Furuhashi dijo:
What has not changed,
however, is the idea that it is Americans who should bring criminals
of the world to justice. It goes without saying that this self-image
makes Americans
Yoshie Furuhashi dijo:
What has not changed,
however, is the idea that it is Americans who should bring criminals
of the world to justice. It goes without saying that this self-image
makes Americans forget the fact that they are the biggest criminals:
the only remaining superpower
Seth Sandronsky wrote:
Ken wrote:
The majority may not like Milosevic but they have given his party
more than a majority in recent elections. That is why you are
seeing a
Western-generated uprising. Interesting that some leftists cheer the
burning of parliament buildings when the supposed aim
I was away for a couple of days, so I'm behind and I'm confused. I
thought Yeltsin used state power to bomb the Duma, and Pinochet used
the army to overthrow Allende. I could swear the special bodies of
Serb armed men essentially laid down their arms and gave in to the
throngs in the streets.
- Original Message -
From: "Louis Proyect" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
One can also raise the question of what kind of brutal dictator Milosevic
is, who permitted the USA and other imperialist powers to spend more money
on the opposition parties than any other government
Actually, I agree that Milosevic was not so undemocratic compared to many
other regimes. He was a brutal murderer who promoted the use of rape as a
weapon and ethnic clensing as policy.
But the fact that he was able to do
so reflects not just his personal qualities but a rough reflection of
- Original Message -
From: "Louis Proyect" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
But the fact that he was able to do
so reflects not just his personal qualities but a rough reflection of the
Serbian democratic will, an unfortunate reflection on that population. And
that is one reason
I get a little skeptical of the claims made by the U.S. about the human rights
violations of those whom the United States government chooses to demonize. I'm
not attractive to nationalists of any kind, whether they be Serbian, Bosnian,
or citizens of the United States.
Even so, I think of the
icans deal with their collective
guilt?
Cheers, Ken Hanly
- Original Message -
From: Nathan Newman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 4:06 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:2895] Re: Re: Re: Yugoslavia to fSU and Chile
- Original Message -
From: "Louis Proyect&qu
Nathan wrote: ... when a people democratically support atrocities by their
government, it is not just the leadership that bears responsibility but
the people themselves.
this sounds as if you are advocating the strategic bombing of the US,
Nathan. After all, we voted Bill "mad bomber"
Nathan wrote: ... when a people democratically support atrocities by their
government, it is not just the leadership that bears responsibility but the
people themselves.
Jim wrote: this sounds as if you are advocating the strategic bombing of
the US, Nathan. After all, we voted Bill "mad
Ken wrote:
The majority may not like Milosevic but they have given his party more
than a majority in recent elections. That is why you are seeing a
Western-generated uprising. Interesting that some leftists cheer the
burning of parliament buildings when the supposed aim is to impose
democracy.
En relación a [PEN-L:2803] Yugoslavia to fSU and Chile,
el 8 Oct 00, a las 13:29, Seth Sandronsky dijo:
Ken wrote:
The majority may not like Milosevic but they have given his party
more
than a majority in recent elections. That is why you are seeing a
Western-generated uprising
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