On Thu, Jun 21, 2001 at 10:31:22PM +0100, Graham Barr wrote:
We can have a huge thread, just like before, but until we see any kind
of update from Larry as to if he has changed his mind it is all a bit
pointless.
For what it's worth, I like it.
Does anyone else see a problem with =~
better polymorphism in prototype and
dispatch of user-defined routines?
--
David Nicol 816.235.1187
Signature closed for repaving
I had imagined the way things like
$R = 0 but true
would work is that the scalar would grow another couple of slots
in it, which would be the conversion operators. Everything defaults
to how it has worked in the past, but could be overridden. So the
boolean value starts as default
Dan Sugalski wrote:
At 04:39 PM 6/12/2001 -0500, David L. Nicol wrote:
I appear to be suggesting that deferability be an add-on that causes some
rewriting to support itself, rather than an optimization to parse away
bothering with silly calculations that we will never see the results
If you have not been following this thread, then maybe that is
the reason for
the confused-sounding nature of your email.
I would say Simon was the one ignoring an issue and attacking a
person, not
Vijay. I think Vijay was the one pointing out that this person (Me) was
contributing to
On Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 05:19:26PM -0700, Daniel S. Wilkerson wrote:
I would say Simon was the one ignoring an issue and attacking
a person, not
Vijay.
You are wrong. Go back through the archives. Vijay has posted four
messages: two of which are critical of Perl, two of which are pretty
-Original Message-
From: Bart Lateur [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 10:48 AM
To: Perl 6 Language Mailing List
Subject: Re: Social Reform
On Tue, 12 Jun 2001 08:54:13 +0100, Simon Cozens wrote:
On Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 05:19:26PM -0700, Daniel S. Wilkerson
Well, I *have* been following the discussion. And to me, it looks indeed
like you, Simon, were indeed attacking ME on non-technical grounds.
Vijay just jumped in for him, like a lioness trying to protect her
kittens.
Which he does from time to time, as do most of us, myself likely
postcards on tuesdays, you just have to go to the post office on
tuesdays.
--
David Nicol 816.235.1187
Signature closed for repaving
group settled on %_ for this, as I recall it was
a consensus without objection.
--
David Nicol 816.235.1187
Signature closed for repaving
to guarantee in Perl, even
for the compiler.
a compilation mode in which all expensive accesses get deferred until
--
David Nicol
The feet that kick out the jams must be defined.
Since I just proposed a new paradigm I'll try to apply it, before
darting down the hill and getting my sandwich.
Dan Sugalski wrote:
David L. Nicol [made an akward metaphor with data as summer campers]
That's less easy than you might think. Quick:
$bar = bar();
is $bar active
Previously, on St. Elsewhere...
Simon(e) writes...
But of course, I'm sure you already know what makes
good language design, because otherwise you wouldn't
be mouthing off in here...
Why is it that Me is *mouthing off*, but you're not? Why is that?
What makes you so *special*? The
-Original Message-
From: Simon Cozens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 3:46 AM
To: Vijay Singh
Cc: Me; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Multi-dimensional arrays and relational db data
On Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 10:13:28PM -0800, Vijay Singh wrote:
Why is it
From: Damian Conway [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 4:06 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: suggested properties of operator results
I think we will see n-ary comparisons allowed in Perl 6:
if ($x $y $z $foo) {...
but as special case syntactic sugar
-- the mechanism behind, for example, the double-angle-bracket C++
streams library output syntax -- early-binding multiple dispatch based
on known argument type -- is missing.
--
David Nicol 816.235.1187
Signature
.
--
David Nicol 816.235.1187
Signature closed for repaving
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
You may wish to read this thread about lazy arrays and object
persistence to get an idea of what you're getting into.
http://www.geocrawler.com/archives/3/3024/2001/3/0/5427925/
Taking lazy as far as we can, has anyone been thinking about
a compilation mode in which
Damian Conway wrote:
Graham asked:
IIRC there was some suggestion of a class being able to declare
elements to be accessable as methods in this was.
So if $ref is of a known type and 'a' was declared in that way,
the parser would take $ref.a and turn it into $ref.{a}
~/perl/perl-5.7.1$ ./perl -le '%a=(1..10); print it; exists $a{1} and print
it'
2
--
David Nicol 816.235.1187
The toad doesn't know it has ten toes.
On Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 01:37:23AM -0500, Me wrote:
Larry's MMV on that ;-)
Man I really need to get up to speed with these
acronyms. I know YMMV, is MMV a distant
cousin perhaps?
Same idea, except it's Larry's Milage in question, rather than Yours.
dha
--
David H. Adler - [EMAIL
is a no-brainer though and will try
to refrain from responding further about it
--
David Nicol 816.235.1187
John Porter wrote:
David L. Nicol wrote:
I really don't know enough about perl 5 internals to go on; I
am certain that this feature is a no-brainer though
Besides the fact which, how it might be added to perl5
does not say much about how it might be implemented in
perl6
Michael G Schwern wrote:
Symbol table manipulation will work as long as your mucking about
doesn't alter the strict class's signature. ie. you can shove a code
ref onto the symbol table as long as a stub for that method was
defined at compile time.
a read-only hash of any kind makes it
gets assigned to.
Damian Conway wrote:
David wrote:
defined $thing and return $thing
Why not use the existing mechanism? Namely:
return $_ for grep{defined} $thing;
although meeting the specified criteria of looking $thing up
once, this is a confusing hack that might
Simon Cozens wrote:
Please don't try defending it or $^d in terms of efficiency;
any variable that Perl has to keep track of magically takes a
performance hit. Remember $`, $', and $?
No, this datum is already known by defined() and exists() all I
am suggesting is a name for the Perl API
Damian Conway wrote:
$ref.{a}can be $ref{a}
which can also be
$ref.a
can it not?
Me wrote:
[strict typing]
Not a negative, but realize that many people find it
of less value than the annoyances it brings with it
(myself included)
Michael, I don't know which is more impressive; the
fact that use of a strictly typed language implies that
a copy of you would
:: is closed);
# re-allow modification like so:
$opener;
--
David Nicol 816.235.1187
Keep Dan Sugalski away from my stuffed animals
.
--
David Nicol 816.235.1187
Keep Dan Sugalski away from my stuffed animals
Michael G Schwern [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote:
Of course, there's problems of order of definition. What happens if
Bar.pm is loaded before Foo? Dunno.
simple sematics can be defined. If we see a declaration:
package Foo is encapulated;
then we throw an error if the namespace, Foo,
throw them out if youre not going to
use them
--
David Nicol 816.235.1187 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Obi-Wan taught me mysticism -- Luke Housego
Perl is far more practical than experimental.
Not at the moment. That's the problem.
(Note the subtle subject change back to its original intent.)
p
-Original Message-
From: Vijay Singh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 10:02 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Python...
Python? Didn't know you were so into tuples...
I thought your head would be turned by Ruby ;-)
It is. But I'm
Where's the likes of David Grove when you need one?
I don't even know what you're talking about.
Leave me alone. I'm learning Python...
again.
p
having wantarray return the number of items needed, or -1 for
all of them, would work very nicely for user-written partial returners.
Did anyone RFC that?
--
David Nicol 816.235.1187 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
DWIM before autovivify unless strict
but deprecate allowing by-number and by-name
to share the same glob?
--
David Nicol 816.235.1187 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
# die smiling;
the way
it works in English. it would change much more often than $_
does.
--
David Nicol 816.235.1187 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
# die smiling;
Michael G Schwern wrote:
That aside, could you put together a code example of what this wins?
some expressiveness is gained, and a creation of a temporary variable
can be avoided.
...
defined $thing and return $thing
...
is my working idiom for checking which case
implementation that sets the stash.
--
David Nicol 816.235.1187 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
# die smiling;
%grocery_stock_codes{$_} and buy it
};
I want to buy the code, as listed in the code table, not the food-by-name.
$_ will still be Granola when buy($) wants IPC_3435_5252_j
--
David Nicol 816.235.1187 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
DWIM before
to forego poor-man's error
handling for exceptions and verbosity I'd be programming in C++ with PCRE.
David T. Grove
Blue Square Group
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
David Grove writes:
: That's not how I see it. The filehandle is naturally true if it
: succeeds. It's the undef value that wants to have more information.
: In fact, you could view $! as a poor-man's way of extracting the error
: that was attached to the last undef.
:
: If I were
--- Dan Sugalski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Oh, didn't Larry tell you? We're making perl's parser locale-aware so
it uses the local language to determine what the keywords are.
I thought that was in the list of things you'd need to take into
account when you wrote the parser... ;-P
Edward Peschko wrote:
As to what the combined
$bar[$foo]
would mean: that depends on what $bar contains.
I like visual clues to tell me
what type of variable
something is. And I disagree strongly with trying to
steamroller the language's
design paper-flat as much as I
On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 01:25:51PM +0200, Bart Lateur wrote:
There must be some reason why a language like Sather isn't more popular.
I think that iters are part of the problem.
That smacks of the Politician's Syllogism:
Something is wrong.
This is something.
Therefore this
On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 04:50:17PM -0400, John Porter wrote:
Pardon my indelicacy, but - Screw how it looks in Perl5.
I'm not telling you how it *looks* in Perl 5, I'm telling you (in Perl 5
terms) what it will *mean*.
nice save
p
I greatly appreciate the encouraging off-list e-mails I have
been getting the past few days. The fact that no-one on this
list knows I'm taking a vacation has me breaking my vow to
not touch any device more complex than a media appliance
until I return and resume normal operations may 28, to
-Original Message-
From: Larry Wall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 6:05 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: On Vacation
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
: And about the whole
throwing-out-baby-in-one-grand-bathwater-disposal-motion
it is. ;-)
David T. Grove
Blue Square Group
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: Simon Cozens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 8:01 AM
To: Dave Mitchell
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: The 5% solution
On Thu, May 10, 2001 at 10:19:10AM +0100, Dave Mitchell wrote:
to be such that the writing of the Perl 5 to
/me likes. /me likes a lot.
David T. Grove
Blue Square Group
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: Dave Hartnoll [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 8:56 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Apoc2 - STDIN concerns : new mascot
Nope, I still think most ordinary people want different operators for
strings than for numbers. Dictionaries and calculators have very
different interfaces in the real world, and it's false economy to
overgeneralize. Witness the travails of people trying to use
cell phones to type
-Original Message-
From: John Porter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 11:58 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: what I meant about hungarian notation
Larry Wall wrote:
: do you think conflating @ and % would be a perl6 design win?
Nope, I still
to eleven!
--
David Nicol 816.235.1187 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
die 'smiling' if $still_debugging;
changing how people fundamentally
view their language. Apocalypse two made me a believer.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
David J. Goehrig#include stdclaimer.h[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
On Thu, May 10, 2001 at 11:55:36AM -0700, Larry Wall wrote:
If you talk that way, people are going to start believing it.
[snip]
Some of us are are talking that way because we already
beleive it. You can't make the transition from Attic
Greek to Koine without changing
-Original Message-
From: Adam Turoff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 3:31 PM
To: David Goehrig
Cc: Larry Wall; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Perl, the new generation
On Thu, May 10, 2001 at 12:13:13PM -0700, David Goehrig wrote:
On Thu, May 10, 2001
difficult to apply to the upcoming completed language. ;-)
BTW, what happened to meta? After a server outage of some length I believe I
was removed, but it appears no longer to exist when I try to subscribe.
David T. Grove
Blue Square Group
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original
Hungarian notation is any of a variety of standards for organizing
a computer program by selecting a schema for naming your variables
so that their type is readily available to someone familiar with
the notation.
I used to request hungarian notation from programmers who worked for me,
until
snip
sane indentation by making it part of the language, Perl is a
language that enforces a dialect of hungarian notation by making
its variable decorations an intrinsic part of the language.
But $, @, and % indicate data organization, not type...
Actually they do show type, though not
didn't do it because it would have taken $600 to prove a point.
David T. Grove
Blue Square Group
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: Bart Lateur [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 10:51 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Apoc2 - STDIN
/me ponders the use of a cat in that context... Furball?
David T. Grove
Blue Square Group
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: Simon Cozens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 10:55 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Apoc2 - STDIN
-Original Message-
From: John Porter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 11:51 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: what I meant about hungarian notation
David Grove wrote:
$ is a singularity, @ is a multiplicity, and % is a
multiplicity of pairs
[...] subject to ethnic
cleansing. Culture wars arise spontaneously, but that should not deter
us from enabling people to build new cultures. [...]
Does that mean we can nuke Redmond and move on to reality in corporate IS
now?
};P
Core Perl is probably trademarked to Sun Microsystems. ;-)
David T. Grove
Blue Square Group
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: John L. Allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 1:29 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Apoc2
As my Con Law professor was fond of saying, Horse hooey!*
Camel cookies.
;-)
These types of issues are not nearly so clear cut as many company's
would have people believe. E.g., O'Reilly is book publisher that
engages in the business of publishing and selling books for a
profit. They
David Grove wrote:
...
This is frightening me too. I really don't like the thought of
$i = 1.0;
$i += 0.1 if $INC;
$i .= Foo, Inc.;
(or more specifically a one line version that converts several times for a
single statement)
becoming
my str $i = 1.0;
if($INC
amount of sense as pretending that a pointer to
a structure is an integer. It works, but it's troublesome.
--
David Nicol 816.235.1187 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
all your base are belong to us, Will Robinson
Simon Cozens wrote:
On Tue, May 08, 2001 at 01:59:47PM -0400, John Porter wrote:
Perl is a highly dynamic language
An object with exactly one and only one method doesn't sound that
dynamic to me.
nonsense! It's got accessor methods too, for everyone who
wanted to magicalize $index
Larry Wall wrote:
there seems to be a shortage of three-humped camels.
At last! the unencumbered image for the mascot! Could
O'Reilly really claim a three-humped camel was an image of
a camel, with a straight face?
Larry Wall wrote:
Syntactically speaking it's too ambiguous to have both a unary and a
bracketing .
Cool. Do we get a operator to use as an l-value, instead of print?
$log = join localtime, 'difficult cramigudgeo';
It's possible we're thinking of iterators wrong here. Perhaps
Nathan Wiger wrote:
I think Uri's qh() suggestion is the cleanest:
me too
And it would make hash declarations cleaner:
%hash = qh(
foo
bar
jim = 'bob'
var
);
Plus maybe even a pragma to set the default value:
use default hashval =
Jonathan Scott Duff wrote:
(*%a, %b) = (%c,%d);# %a slurps, %b gets nothing
(%a, *%b) = (%c,%d);# %a = %c, %b gets the rest
I'm sure your imaginations can twiddle the cardinality knob
appropriate for generalization :-)
-Scott
so if you don't know exactly what
Johan Vromans wrote:
[Quoting Michael G Schwern, on May 6 2001, 22:58, in Re: Apo2: \Q ambigui]
Hmmm, maybe you can point out the compose key on my keyboard, I
can't find it. ;)
Pick whatever you find convenient. I use the right control key.
From my .Xmodmap:
! Compose key
John Porter wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
:
: why should a reader expect that a declarative description
: of foo would be followed by the body of foo?
Isn't the functional definition of a sub
just another one of its attributes, anyway?
I'm a little bit disappointed that p6
I know it is an annoying and bad habit but I'm still young enough so
at first glance I think I know it all.
[billions and billions of]
SYN_A # Return one element regardless of context.
SYN_B # Return number of element wanted by context.
SYN_C #
Larry Wall wrote:
The ~~ is a cute hack though.
Credit is due to Steve Lane [EMAIL PROTECTED] who posted it to funwithperl.
...
I'm sorry, my eyes go crossed when I look at that, and the two \Q's
merge into one, which confuses me, in a stereoscopic sort of way.
I was wrong about \Q\E
Nathan Wiger wrote:
Perhaps qi() for interpolate or something else.
coming to Perl from Scheme I recall some distress that
I had to create
($j=$i) =~ s/(\$\S+)/$1/ge;
instead of what I wanted to do
$j=qqq/$i/;
so my nomination is for tokens matching /qq*/ to behave like
Hungarian notation is any of a variety of standards for organizing
a computer program by selecting a schema for naming your variables
so that their type is readily available to someone familiar with
the notation.
Just as Python is a language that enforces the common practice of
sane
push chairs, map {woodworking} treestumps;
or even
push chairs, map BLOCK(woodworking) treestumps;
is = typing, inheritance, etc.
has = composition, aggregation, etc.
True, but those are basic OO concepts, which don't neatly apply to
property-lists (a very old Lisp concept that Perl6 is adopting).
is does seem to imply an OO is-a relationship. So lets run
with it!
If $foo is an
file.txt contents:
{foo}\E{foo}\E{foo}
script.pl {foo} file.txt
3
--
David Nicol 816.235.1187 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Parse, munge, repeat.
if we kept with their current meaning but added it
as a handier whitespace quoter I would like that.
p5:
@things = one two three four five;
_is_ currently a syntax error. In my mind. Not in my 5.005_03.
however, where it appears to behave just like qw does,
except that it does
to provide
a solid chroot facility?
--
David Nicol 816.235.1187 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Parse, munge, repeat.
definitely want ...
my @heapa is heap;
@heapa = @list;
my $first = shift @heapa;
my $second = shift @heapa;
my $third = shift @heapa;
--
David Nicol 816.235.1187 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Parse
.
--
David Nicol 816.235.1187 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Parse, munge, repeat.
we're done with Perl 6, we'll have a major competitor to the .NET
platform itself, even more so than Java is a competitor. Or are we thinking
of a merge? Or are we thinking on a totally separate line that just has a
few similarities?
Everyone else: Comments?
David T. Grove
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
am seeing some similarities between some of the proposed goals of
Perl 6 and the .NET platform.
. . . many things in .NET have been discussed similarly here.
That's because .NET attempts to address real-world issues.
The goals of .NET are not evil in and of themselves, you know.
Depends
-Original Message-
From: Jarkko Hietaniemi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 5:26 PM
To: David Grove
Cc: Perl 6 Language Mailing List
Subject: Re: .NET
(still waiting
for something original for a change).
You are saying that the Clippy wasn't
Graham Barr wrote:
How this cooperates with lazy is a different matter entirely.
Graham.
http://dev.perl.org/rfc/123.html#Assigning_from_lazy_lists
suggests that assigning to a sized busy array from a lazy array will
fill it and stop.
--
David Nicol 816.235.1187
(this,that
the other);
the second argument is now the intended second and third args and
there is no third arg, instead of a syntax error.
--
David Nicol 816.235.1187 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
and they all say yodelahihu
John Porter wrote:
We could y/$@%/@%$/ ...
... and create an alternate parser able to handle the full
internal internals API.
I have finally figured out the main motivation behind the
whole perl6 effort: the obfuscated perl contests were
getting repetitive.
Good night.
discussed all this
--
David Nicol 816.235.1187 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
and they all say yodelahihu
On 24 Apr 2001, Russ Allbery wrote:
Branden [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
1) Use $obj.method instead of $obj-method :
The big question is: why fix what is not broken? Why introduce Javaisms
and VBisms to our pretty C/C++-oid Perl? Why brake compatibility with
Perl 5 code (and Perl 5
On 24 Apr 2001, Russ Allbery wrote:
David M Lloyd [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
What's wrong with using both? You could use - if you're working with a
reference to an object, and you could use . if you're working with the
object itself.
It seems relatively unlikely in the course
On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Simon Cozens wrote:
On Tue, Apr 24, 2001 at 08:38:58AM -0500, David M. Lloyd wrote:
Well, right now in Perl, an object *is* a reference.
No. An object is a referent. Two blessed references can refer to the
same data; however, that's only one object.
Oops, that's what
Dan Sugalski wrote:
Most of the parser switching is going to be of the nesting variety. Every
time the parser processes a double-quoted string constant or a regular
expression you're going to be jumping parsers. That's all temporary, and we
really do want them to nest. (You really don't want
Larry Wall wrote:
(And juxtaposition is out because we're not going to destroy indirect
object syntax
How often is indirect object syntax used without some whitespace? Having
the perl5-perl6 converter locate it and insert a space shouldn't be too
very tricky.
which this allegedly steps on?
--
David Nicol 816.235.1187 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Henrik's keyboard has nice letters like 'æ', 'ø' and 'å'
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